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Cut the Crap - Freighter Ganking

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Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 02:50:00 - [1] I'm an Ex-Carebear, now PvPer that has been reading the multitude of posts over and over again, and I'm starting to get agitated with what I'm seeing here. Therefore I felt it necessary to come here and shove my opinion into all of your faces in a superior tone like I know everything blah blah blah. So in point form here it is: 1) Carebears. OMG many of you have lost the plot... By far the most common argument I have seen from many of you is that suicide ganking should not be possible. That being in high sec is your g*d given right to be perfectly safe and that even if half of the galaxy decides that you should be popped in high sec that it should not be possible. It is this attitude primarily that is having the PvPer types shaking their heads and wanting to troll and flame you. 2) PvPers / Gankers - Wow, just wow... The most common argument from you lot is that everything is absolutely fine, nothing needs to be changed, "you got popped and now you're whining on the whorums" kind of attitude". Well, really what else could be expected from you? Common theory among many of you is that because you guys are "cooler", "l337", and because you can come on the whorums and exercise your e-peen in public by flaming one of the idiot carebear types I mentioned above that this makes you right. 3) Some things as I see them. -To the Carebears - High sec should be much safer than low sec, but not completely safe. CCP have stated again and again that one of EvE's driving principles is Risk vs Reward. By that argument alone, if there was ZERO risk in High Sec, then there would also be ZERO reward. Which as we all know is not the case. -To the PvPers / Gankers - This Risk vs Reward thingo I mentioned applies to you guys as well. Any one of you who would look me in the eye, and tell me that popping a freighter in high sec using 13 Dominixs that are all T1 fitted, and FULLY INSURED is balanced Risk vs Reward is either legitimately stupid, or lying. Simple. "So what needs to be done? Oh wise one Duff Man" -Give Freighters slots. The idea that every freighter you set your target bead on always has exactly the same setup (Lackof in this case), goes against the grain of everything else in this game. Consistency fellas... If you want to stop Freighters using cargo expanders, then prevent them using cargo expanders in their low slots... -Nerf whatever it is that makes a Dominix THE SHIP, and basically THE ONLY SHIP to use for this activity. When you have a situation where there is 1 ship type, used by everyone engaging in a specific activity, virtually 100% of the time - Something has gone wrong and balance has gone out the window in that instance. -Insurance for Condokkened ships. If you get blown up breaking the law in high sec space, being popped by the authorities you should not get a nice fat insurance payout for it! No comparisons to RL, none of that crap. If you get popped doing something which is 100% going to result in the destruction (Suicide) of your ship your ship you should not get an insurance payout for it. I know I know, its not enforceable for PvP, low sec etc etc etc. It IS however, enforceable for ships that get popped by concord. "But what about people that get concorded by accident, not by engaging in a ganking?" You ask? Introduce a new warning popup that comes up specifically when the action that you are performing will result in a concord response. "Doing this will resuly in the UNINSURED LOSS OF YOUR SHIP, are you sure you want to continue?" - Or something along those lines anyway. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WILL TLDR! I'll rehash my argument quickly. Ganking in high sec SHOULD be possible, and in many instances, profitable. The Risk Vs Reward needs to be changed drastically, and this can be done through modifications to Freighters, and more specifically a modification to the insurance system. Gaining several billion isk in loot, suiciding fully insured T1 Battleships (All Dominixs)= Not Balanced.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.18 02:54:00 - [2] I'm a PVPerrrr and a Carebear. Most of my waking hours is spent pwning myself infront of the mirror
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 02:59:00 - [3] Dude seriously. That's Just Weird
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 18/05/2007 03:00:20 Originally by: Duff Man Dude seriously. That's Just Weird What my corpmates say. Should hear the stuff sometimes Jonesman, oh yeah! thrust That was just for you
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Duff Man -Nerf whatever it is that makes a Dominix THE SHIP, and basically THE ONLY SHIP to use for this activity. When you have a situation where there is 1 ship type, used by everyone engaging in a specific activity, virtually 100% of the time - Something has gone wrong and balance has gone out the window in that instance. Pretty sure this is coming. I have seen in other posts people mention that CONCORD on SiSi has been buffed and that CONCORD now engages drones. Some have said CONCORD also hits harder now too (dunno if that is true). Still, having CONCORD nuking drones should take the Domi out of the gankerific equation. People will now have to apply some brain power to a gank. Add in no insurance payout for getting CONCORDed and I think problem is solved. Ganks can still happen but suiciders need to be more choosey. Also, next patch freighters are looking to get a sideways nerf in that webbing frigs can no longer fast warp them. I have another thread discussing that here.
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:08:00 - [6] My Gods people! No Dark Shikari reply here yet. What in heavens did I do wrong??? This is certainly a sign of a failed post. I will hang my head in shame.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Duff Man My Gods people! No Dark Shikari reply here yet. What in heavens did I do wrong??? This is certainly a sign of a failed post. I will hang my head in shame. Sorry Duff, sorry I like the post though --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Duff Man -Nerf whatever it is that makes a Dominix THE SHIP, and basically THE ONLY SHIP to use for this activity. When you have a situation where there is 1 ship type, used by everyone engaging in a specific activity, virtually 100% of the time - Something has gone wrong and balance has gone out the window in that instance. Pretty sure this is coming. I have seen in other posts people mention that CONCORD on SiSi has been buffed and that CONCORD now engages drones. Some have said CONCORD also hits harder now too (dunno if that is true). Still, having CONCORD nuking drones should take the Domi out of the gankerific equation. People will now have to apply some brain power to a gank. Add in no insurance payout for getting CONCORDed and I think problem is solved. Ganks can still happen but suiciders need to be more choosey. Also, next patch freighters are looking to get a sideways nerf in that webbing frigs can no longer fast warp them. I have another thread discussing that here. Hi Imperator, I've just had a read of your post and my opinion on that is this. Freighters were never meant to get to warp that quickly tbh. I've used this within corps/alliances that I have been a part of and I must state that alignment is not even necessary. I have seen freighters go into warp virtually sideways . Having said that, as a person fitting the ship, you need to have the ability to modify that ship, just as you do with EVERY other ship type in EvE. If you want to deck your low slots out with Inertial stabs to increase your warp alignment / acceleration, then you should be able to do so.
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Duff Man My Gods people! No Dark Shikari reply here yet. What in heavens did I do wrong??? This is certainly a sign of a failed post. I will hang my head in shame. Sorry Duff, sorry I like the post though Awww Shucks mate Cheers
Radar Rat SPECTRE Ops	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:16:00 - [10] Duff man, im assuming you lost a freighter to a gank squad, which is why you are on here complaining, no ship is completely safe, not even a freighter, its not meant to be. There are many reasons why having slots on a freighter would be a bad idea, for starters people would start putting nano-fibers and inertia stabs on, before long you would have freighters flying around faster than most frigs, plus the whole reason they have so much shield and armor etc, is to compensate for the lack of slots. and anyway i cant see how suicide gankers can pull together enough firepower to drop a freighter in hi-sec anyway. and lets for instance say that there is a corp of 20+ bs's willing to attack you, you would have to be carrying something very valuable to make it worth their time and effort, in which case you are crazy flying solo anyway, take some friends, with shield/armor transfer mods, and they cant do it.

Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:18:00 - [11] Just a note that I'd like to point out that I forgot to mention guys. That while I have an alt that can fly a freighter, and have on occasion (A long time ago) borrowed freighters once in a while for my own use; I do not in fact, own a freighter. I also don't engage in freighter ganks (Which I see as a part of the game that needs to be balanced, not removed!). Anyway - Food for thought.
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Radar Rat Duff man, im assuming you lost a freighter to a gank squad, which is why you are on here complaining, no ship is completely safe, not even a freighter, its not meant to be. There are many reasons why having slots on a freighter would be a bad idea, for starters people would start putting nano-fibers and inertia stabs on, before long you would have freighters flying around faster than most frigs, plus the whole reason they have so much shield and armor etc, is to compensate for the lack of slots. and anyway i cant see how suicide gankers can pull together enough firepower to drop a freighter in hi-sec anyway. and lets for instance say that there is a corp of 20+ bs's willing to attack you, you would have to be carrying something very valuable to make it worth their time and effort, in which case you are crazy flying solo anyway, take some friends, with shield/armor transfer mods, and they cant do it. I can appreciate what you have written here, but please do not take it offensively that I will pick apart the arguments that you have put forward. 1) My apologies that my last addition to the thread came in after yours. Just for clarification though, while I have flown freighters in the past (That I did not own), I do not own, nor have I ever owned a freighter. I also virtually never fly them these days, as to be honest my style of play these days very rarely requires transport of large quantities of anything. I have not had a freighter ganked, ever. 2) So just throwing slots into the freighters exactly as they stand is not a good idea. This was not in fact what I was suggesting. They need slots, and they need to be re-tuned with those slots to address any glaring balance concerns. 3) Many people have suggested that having a "Protecting Fleet" for a freighter in high sec is actually not only impractical, but nigh on impossible. The gankers know that they are ggoing to lose their ships, so you're not going to intimidate them. If the Suicide gank of the freighter takes 45 seconds total, then whether you have a opposing fleet that kills them 20 seconds after the gank, or whether concord alone kills them 35 seconds after the gank is not of consequence. I have also been led to believe that the lag involved makes most things impossible as far as performing actions goes, which I believe is one of the main reasons that Domi's are used, because drones do most of the damage, and the lag actually assists with drone damage slightly rather than hinders. (Not to mention that the drones themselves are largely responsible for the lag no doubt, as well as the large concord warp in). The lag also affects the ability to remote rep. T1 Insured BS with T1 Fittings means that you are not risking very much at all (T1 mods are so cheap they're close to free, and on an insured BS you're likely to lose what in insurance payout? 10 Mil isk? For what is alot of the time, multi billion isk loots from the freighters.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:39:00 - [13] The OP is remarkably crap-free. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Duff Man on 18/05/2007 03:42:13 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The OP is remarkably crap-free. Not sure whether to take that as a complement, or whether the at the end of your post there is meant to denote sarcasm...
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.05.18 03:58:00 - [15] I have one question,,, TLDR? I feel unedumukated
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Jmanis Catharg I have one question,,, TLDR? I feel unedumukated TLDR = Too Long Didn't Read
Radar Rat SPECTRE Ops	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:06:00 - [17] Duff Man,i appreciate what your trying to say, im just not sure that making freighters effectively invulnerable in hi-sec is the answer. i agree that the dominix is a very effective and cheap ship, i also agree that in theory its very profitable for suicide gankers if they can get enough ships together however, its questionable whether freighters should really be allowed in hi-sec anyway, for ages ccp have been trying to get more people into low-sec and 0.0 to ease the overcrowding in empire, but theres little in the way of incentive for people to move into low-sec when they can move large amounts of goods risk free in hi-sec, i don't think hi-sec should ever be completely safe, even for freighter pilots, the worst thing to happen to eve would be if people had an "i win" button, and anyway i cant see many corps managing to put together the kind of numbers needed to pull off a freighter kill. who knows, maybe freighter ganking will cause people to play smarter and use scouts and intel chat channels to stay safe rather than just clicking the autopilot button and wandering off to watch a film.. ---------------------------------------------- The early bird may catch the worm, but its the second rat that gets the cheese !!!
Vana Gank Gallente Kebabtossers	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:13:00 - [18] Should shouldnt be perfectly safe in HiSec. Period. I think this is the way CCP is going. However, as you say duffy - there's alot of opinions about the issue. And as you've already mentioned, qouting the "Domi" thingy, I think you might just have that statement a bit wrong. - CONCORDE is able to disable, and dispose of turret-based threats in Hi Sec - CONCORDE is NOT able to disable, and dispose of drone-based threats in Hi Sec And there lies the whole issue. Drone's arent disable. Turrets are. Forget the ship-names etc. Balance the disbaling of the weapons, and it's shouldnt be a problem. CONCORDE needs to wise up, thats it. -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Duff Man Edited by: Duff Man on 18/05/2007 03:52:38 Edited by: Duff Man on 18/05/2007 03:42:13 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The OP is remarkably crap-free. Not sure whether to take that as a compliment, or whether the at the end of your post there is meant to denote sarcasm... Oh, it was serious. It's just that the thread title made me expect a couple of freighter's worth of poo. I was pleasantly surprised. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Duff Man Edited by: Duff Man on 18/05/2007 03:52:38 Edited by: Duff Man on 18/05/2007 03:42:13 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The OP is remarkably crap-free. Not sure whether to take that as a compliment, or whether the at the end of your post there is meant to denote sarcasm... Oh, it was serious. It's just that the thread title made me expect a couple of freighter's worth of poo. I was pleasantly surprised. Cheers

Jmanis Catharg Caldari Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:24:00 - [21] While there's plenty of topics like this, just reading the replies it's funny how people always interpret this sort of thread as 'freighters should be invincible in hi sec',, rather than 'Ganking freighters shouldn't be so cheap'. As was pointed out somewhere, to fit out a 20 man Domi ganksquad you need about 200-250 mil total. Compared to the billion it costs just to buy the freighter,,,, well, yeah,, that's just silly. Even if insurance wasnt paid out, a 15 man ganksquad will take about 90 mil per ship,, 1.45bil to take out a freighter (1 bil) plus half a cargo of loot (another bil or two) sounds pretty damn fair to me.
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Radar Rat Duff Man,i appreciate what your trying to say, im just not sure that making freighters effectively invulnerable in hi-sec is the answer. i agree that the dominix is a very effective and cheap ship, i also agree that in theory its very profitable for suicide gankers if they can get enough ships together however, its questionable whether freighters should really be allowed in hi-sec anyway, for ages ccp have been trying to get more people into low-sec and 0.0 to ease the overcrowding in empire, but theres little in the way of incentive for people to move into low-sec when they can move large amounts of goods risk free in hi-sec, i don't think hi-sec should ever be completely safe, even for freighter pilots, the worst thing to happen to eve would be if people had an "i win" button, and anyway i cant see many corps managing to put together the kind of numbers needed to pull off a freighter kill. who knows, maybe freighter ganking will cause people to play smarter and use scouts and intel chat channels to stay safe rather than just clicking the autopilot button and wandering off to watch a film.. If you reread the entirety of my post (Yes, as painfully long as it is) as well as the additions that I have made to this post; You may actually notice that you are in fact, actually agreeing with me...
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Vana Gank Edited by: Vana Gank on 18/05/2007 04:13:18 Ships shouldnt be perfectly safe in HiSec. Period. I think this is the way CCP is going. However, as you say duffy - there's alot of opinions about the issue. And as you've already mentioned, qouting the "Domi" thingy, I think you might just have that statement a bit wrong. - CONCORDE is able to disable, and dispose of turret-based threats in Hi Sec - CONCORDE is NOT able to disable, and dispose of drone-based threats in Hi Sec And there lies the whole issue. Drone's arent disable. Turrets are. Forget the ship-names etc. Balance the disabling of the weapons (threats), and it's shouldnt be a problem. CONCORDE needs to wise up, thats it. Interesting point. It would seem that this is the main point where imbalance occurs in that case (Regarding teh use of Domis that is).
Duff Man Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:27:00 - [24] Just a note that i'm actually going to try and get back to doing some work . Will try and keep an eye on this thread again later.
Vana Gank Gallente Kebabtossers	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:33:00 - [25] Just to emphasise a little bit on what I meant (and whats been ,mentioned by other forum-queens previously) is. CONCORDE will JAM a Turret. CONCORDE doesnt JAM a Drone. I think this may be specific enough. confiscate CONCORDE's booze, give them a crashcourse how to JAM all threats, and balance should be restored. -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:37:00 - [26] Give CONCORD DDD Problem solved.
Vana Gank Gallente Kebabtossers	Posted - 2007.05.18 04:48:00 - [27] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Give CONCORD DDD Problem solved. ROFL I'd love to see that in Jita :D -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.18 05:11:00 - [28] Just apply physics to the equation. A freighter through its mass alone should be ôun bumpableö. Should be able to swat attackers like flies just during rotation while aligning. It should take considerable time to blast through the hull of a massive ship.. They should not pop like balloons. All fear the mighty freighter. Try ramming a freight train with a Cooper and see what happens.
Vana Gank Gallente Kebabtossers	Posted - 2007.05.18 05:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Vana Gank on 18/05/2007 05:59:46 Originally by: Thesas Just apply physics to the equation. A freighter through its mass alone should be ôun bumpableö. Should be able to swat attackers like flies just during rotation while aligning. It should take considerable time to blast through the hull of a massive ship.. They should not pop like balloons. All fear the mighty freighter. Try ramming a freight train with a Cooper and see what happens. Regarding bumping agree. Ships should be tossed off like britney spears changing bra. For the rest: - Ballons doesnt take 38 seconds to pop. - Freighter with nn-number of Battelships do (and they still should). - Changing the freighters will ruin an established balance (also regarding 0.0) - Changing the Domi will ruin an established balance (also regarding 0.0) Just change the fricking Concorde, and we'll all live happily ever after. The Empire gankers will now need a minimum of 50 BS to take out a freighter - either using TURRETS or DRONES - to be able to do it using alpha-strike. Remember, freighters are being used for 0.0 logistics as well - and now they are targets for enemies trying to kill off the logistic-runs. We can't just mess with that balance. -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.05.18 06:00:00 - [30] faction freighters....? - "Ready for your... sponge bath?"



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