Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 00:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Honestly i like to make stuff... I mine while reading or playing with the grand kids....
I dont really care about makeing a profit.... If i make 50 frigates just because i have a BPC or even a bpo its fun just to see it sold... I do not really watch profits that much.. i did but why worry about it someone will always buy it and i wll always have isk..
above poster said it for me even better... |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
170
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 01:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
The "minerals are free" thing is a straightforward case of opportunity cost. You're choosing to do something that costs you money when the alternatives, such as just selling the minerals, searching a little for a good that is profitable to make, or merely selling the good you do make in a place where you actually make a profit, are pretty easy to do. I understand where people are coming from when they say that they like manufacturing even at a loss. I just think they'd like it even better, if it was adding to their profits rather than taking away.
Having said that, I'm with Brock. If you're whining because someone makes mistakes while playing the market game, then you're doing it wrong.
Derath Ellecon wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:The main issue in all of these threads is in trying to apply real life ideas to a GAME. A GAME with a player controlled economy. Yes a player driven economy. But still a game. The key factor there is that people will do things that don't make financial sense because they don't care. They don't care because what they are doing gives them enjoyment.aspects of eve that I enjoy, and bypass the parts that feel too much like my real job.
I see this as something like insisting that one can only count real world objects. That math somehow doesn't apply to GAMES.
It's worth noting here that the fact of "being a game" is completely irrelevant to the economics of Eve other than implying that there's a larger economy that virtually all market participants participate in, which typically has higher priority. You can still apply real life ideas to the GAME because the GAME is just as much real life as anything else. In addition, it doesn't matter if something is real life or not anyway. If you have the market real, virtual, or some other state of being, you have the hooks in which to apply those real world ideas.
|
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
53
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 02:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
So if you really want to drive that argument to the absurdom (is that even a word?) you might as well whine that people run lvl 4 when they could be doing incursions/sleepers/anoms (or whatever is the latest huge isk faucet) since they are making less ISK.
As said many times, if people want to put up items below mineral cost... have buy orders up and get your minerals cheap or just flip em. You make money and is happy, they get their asking price and is happy.
Though... on the other hand I do understand where you come from. In my RL line of work I constantly see people undercutting eachother to the point of actually losing money on the jobs (or.. I guess they have illegal immigrants doing it because there is NO way they can have a profit otherwise). So yes I have no love for the "i am cheapest i just want it to sell/get the job" but.. this is a game.. Who cares, its internet pixel money. They get the money they asked for and are happy.. isnt that what a game is all about? Having fun? or have we all gone of the deep and really believe that internet spaceships IS serious business to the point of being RL?
Not everything has to be the optimal way, sometimes.. just do it for the lulz.. or.. the tears.. oh wait.. that is rather common to in EVE isnt it? :) So perhaps they are doing it for the tears.. these tears that they assume the OP is shedding when he sees those ships sold for below cost.
HA!! Figured it out, they are just griefers.. Griefing the marketers and industrialists. Now eve makes sense again, was getting worried that people took eve too serious there for a while.
EDIT: HAHA!!!! sorry eve forums.. copy paste before hitting post FTW your we where ganked missed me! |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
171
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 22:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Linda Shadowborn wrote:
So if you really want to drive that argument to the absurdom (is that even a word?) you might as well whine that people run lvl 4 when they could be doing incursions/sleepers/anoms (or whatever is the latest huge isk faucet) since they are making less ISK.
Except there is a big difference between these activities which one would expect to influence one's preferences over which activity to do. The "minerals are free" argument basically boils down to "I don't feel like taking a few minutes to figure out whether I could be doing what I do in a better way for me".
|
MapQ
F-A-T-E
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 07:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
It's a game which is run by an economy, an economy that is run by players - so obviously some real world incentives will fall into EVE.
What is up with all of these "People don't care because it's a game" arguments? It's one of the most absurd damage control defenses I have ever heard.
In this game you make profit, profit becomes time, it becomes cooler ships, it becomes a better YOU. The best decision would be making the most out of your work so you can go out and buy whatever you like whether it be ships, skillbooks, etc. to keep you satisfied. Telling people that "people don't care because it's a game" is a logical fallacy - if this is somewhat true, why not just give minerals to people? **** around in space with your hulk and shoot rocks all day with tier 1 hybrid lasers? People care, maybe not as much as real world currency, but enough to compete and sell for maximum profits.
So far it seems the defense is countering with a lame, lazy excuse for their poor, asinine decisions.
I personally don't like mining that much, but it helps pay for eve time on my alt accounts and I don't have to put that much effort into mining. |
Alaadra Mernher
Big Mike Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 14:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
It's the price they're willing to pay to have fun in the game.
You could draw a parallel to real life jobs: I work for company ABC doing job XYZ. I could move to company EFG and do job VWX, which is pretty close to XYZ, but not exactly the same and make 1.5 times my current salary. But I don't really like doing VWX very much and I prefer doing XYZ, so I'll take a lesser salary in order to have a 'fun' job, or at least the job I like best between the two options. (I always overlook something when doing those kind of comparisons, please point it out :P)
People who do that, as others have pointed out, like Manufacturing. Maybe they don't like playing market games. Maybe they can't be bothered with the few minutes it takes to make market research, because they hate that. It's a few minutes to much for them. I know I do it. In the end, they take a pay cut in exchange for doing what they like.
"But they would make more money just selling the minerals!". Yes, but they enjoy manufacturing. Yes they would be making more profit, but they wouldn't have fun.
Is it a poor decision? From a pure profit perpective, yes undoubtedly. Can you really fault them for doing what they like in the game? I wouldn't think so.
It's the same reason you're playing EvE right now, or browsing the forums. You could be making RL money by working! Why are you sitting there playing a game? Because you need a break from your work week and you enjoy playing EvE.
Alaadra |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
146
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 16:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
Lives are free in other games that is no excuse to throw them away. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
259
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 08:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Aaron Knossos wrote:Just because you mined those minerals yourself, doesn't mean they are free. They have a value, as determined by the buy orders in your region.
While I'm very impressed with that Caracal that you built all by yourself, you're selling it for 3.5 million ISK. If you had sold the minerals instead, you'd have 4 million.
Please l2math. you might be right but atleast that new player that just build that caracal is probably very proud of his / her archievment just when i was ,when i finally did build my freighter , mining all the minerals myself selling the over production of minerals and buying the hugh end minerals from that profit
that was a day to remember when she finally was finished , my pride and joy I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 13:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tasko Pal wrote:I see this as something like insisting that one can only count real world objects. That math somehow doesn't apply to GAMES.
It's worth noting here that the fact of "being a game" is completely irrelevant to the economics of Eve other than implying that there's a larger economy that virtually all market participants participate in, which typically has higher priority. You can still apply real life ideas to the GAME because the GAME is just as much real life as anything else. In addition, it doesn't matter if something is real life or not anyway. If you have the market real, virtual, or some other state of being, you have the hooks in which to apply those real world ideas.
MapQ wrote:What is up with all of these "People don't care because it's a game" arguments? It's one of the most absurd damage control defenses I have ever heard.
No, in fact it is completely relevant and you are missing the point. The "It's a GAME argument" is not that you cannot apply real life math to EVE. Of course you can. The point where the comparison breaks down is not in the hard math, but the motivation.
For example, In the real world I play the industrialist. And my primary motivation is to maximize profit. Why? It puts food on the table and a roof over my family's head. It allows me to pay my employees and keep them happy and so forth.
Now to be fair, I am not an industrialist in EVE. It feels too much like work. That is because my primary motivation in EVE is to have FUN. I do plenty of things that don't maximize my profit in EVE because they aren't fun (I seel to buy orders etc).
Now, there are plenty of people in EVE who are also motivated by FUN, who like to mine and build things. These are the people who will sell their items at a loss.
TLDR- The "It's a game argument" isn't about not applying real life math to EVE. It is that these calculations are irrelevant as the players motivation is FUN not PROFIT.
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
441
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 13:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:Aaron Knossos wrote:Just because you mined those minerals yourself, doesn't mean they are free. They have a value, as determined by the buy orders in your region.
While I'm very impressed with that Caracal that you built all by yourself, you're selling it for 3.5 million ISK. If you had sold the minerals instead, you'd have 4 million.
Please l2math. you might be right but atleast that new player that just build that caracal is probably very proud of his / her archievment just when i was ,when i finally did build my freighter , mining all the minerals myself selling the over production of minerals and buying the hugh end minerals from that profit that was a day to remember when she finally was finished , my pride and joy
The difference in the two scenarios is thus:
-- the caracal builder was trying to make a profit (I'm going to assume anyone using sell orders has the "for profit" motivation) -- you were doing it "because you can" ... and wanted something shiny for yourself.
|
|
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
42
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 17:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alaadra Mernher wrote:It's the price they're willing to pay to have fun in the game.
You could draw a parallel to real life jobs: I work for company ABC doing job XYZ. I could move to company EFG and do job VWX, which is pretty close to XYZ, but not exactly the same and make 1.5 times my current salary. But I don't really like doing VWX very much and I prefer doing XYZ, so I'll take a lesser salary in order to have a 'fun' job, or at least the job I like best between the two options. (I always overlook something when doing those kind of comparisons, please point it out :P)
People who do that, as others have pointed out, like Manufacturing. Maybe they don't like playing market games. Maybe they can't be bothered with the few minutes it takes to make market research, because they hate that. It's a few minutes to much for them. I know I do it. In the end, they take a pay cut in exchange for doing what they like.
"But they would make more money just selling the minerals!". Yes, but they enjoy manufacturing. Yes they would be making more profit, but they wouldn't have fun.
Is it a poor decision? From a pure profit perpective, yes undoubtedly. Can you really fault them for doing what they like in the game? I wouldn't think so.
It's the same reason you're playing EvE right now, or browsing the forums. You could be making RL money by working! Why are you sitting there playing a game? Because you need a break from your work week and you enjoy playing EvE.
Alaadra
I think you pretty much nailed it.
/ thread
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Dawnstar
Kiroshi Group Exiliar Syndicate
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 23:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
This complaint is as old as Eve itself. I remember seeing people do this the first week that the game was live.
Its not a problem, its an opportunity. If they're selling for 3.5M and it costs 4M to make them? Buy them up and sell them for 3.95M. Other sellers won't buy them up at that price, but they should still sell to individuals seeking the item. You making a 10% return on your investment for virtually no work, other than your isk being tied up for a time. If its something that doesn't sell well and the prices are low enough, reprocess them for cheap minerals (be sure to do the math, comparing the reprocessed mineral value to the cost).
Personally, I would LOVE to see more people selling things at stupidly low prices. More investment opportunities for me.
|
Ahrieman
Heretic Army
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.09 23:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:The main problem with the "minerals I mine are free" argument is that this is a GAME.
If this were a real business in the real world it would be one thing. But for some it is a valid point that if they enjoy mining, and then making stuff with it and then selling it for whatever, its all good.
Heck by the same argument nobody should ever PVP. I cannot ever thing of a time where I made isk from PVP. So everyone should stop killing and ganking each other cause you know you are losing money by doing so...
I make money pvp'ing. I think you're doing it wrong....you have to NOT be awful to turn a profit |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
175
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 06:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:MapQ wrote:What is up with all of these "People don't care because it's a game" arguments? It's one of the most absurd damage control defenses I have ever heard. No, in fact it is completely relevant and you are missing the point. The "It's a GAME argument" is not that you cannot apply real life math to EVE. Of course you can. The point where the comparison breaks down is not in the hard math, but the motivation.
The "motivation" doesn't matter to economics. In real life, which Eve is part of, doing things for fun instead of profit is quite frequent. It blows away some of the more dubious economic models (such as the frequent assumption that economic actors are rationally maximizing the time-value of their assets). But economics works just as well as it does anywhere else.
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 14:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tasko Pal wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:MapQ wrote:What is up with all of these "People don't care because it's a game" arguments? It's one of the most absurd damage control defenses I have ever heard. No, in fact it is completely relevant and you are missing the point. The "It's a GAME argument" is not that you cannot apply real life math to EVE. Of course you can. The point where the comparison breaks down is not in the hard math, but the motivation. The "motivation" doesn't matter to economics. In real life, which Eve is part of, doing things for fun instead of profit is quite frequent. It blows away some of the more dubious economic models (such as the frequent assumption that economic actors are rationally maximizing the time-value of their assets). But economics works just as well as it does anywhere else.
It's like going in circles. Yes the "motivation" doesn't matter to economics. But that's my point in the reverse. You can spew all the economics you want because it doesn't matter if the motivation for players of this GAME called EVE is fun, not profit. |
Roland Schlosser
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.01.10 21:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Everything I make myself is free!!!!!!!! trololololololol |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |