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Aaron Knossos
Triumphant Turtles Legion of Honor
0
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Posted - 2011.12.31 02:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just because you mined those minerals yourself, doesn't mean they are free. They have a value, as determined by the buy orders in your region.
While I'm very impressed with that Caracal that you built all by yourself, you're selling it for 3.5 million ISK. If you had sold the minerals instead, you'd have 4 million.
Please l2math. |
Brock Nelson
145
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Posted - 2011.12.31 03:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Somebody butt hurt by the "free mineralist" |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
50
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Posted - 2011.12.31 03:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
The main problem with the "minerals I mine are free" argument is that this is a GAME.
If this were a real business in the real world it would be one thing. But for some it is a valid point that if they enjoy mining, and then making stuff with it and then selling it for whatever, its all good.
Heck by the same argument nobody should ever PVP. I cannot ever thing of a time where I made isk from PVP. So everyone should stop killing and ganking each other cause you know you are losing money by doing so... |
Dersk
90040045
2
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Posted - 2011.12.31 03:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Move to blueprints that have a prerequisite higher than "industry 1" and this problem goes away.
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Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
7
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Posted - 2011.12.31 03:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
OP, and those who make the same argument, are only partly right. If the value of the effort required of you to mine those minerals was worth less than buy orders for those minerals in your region, that argument doesn't really apply. Mining is something that a lot of people can do semi-AFK, channelling their effort in multiple directions at once. For example, one might say "If I weren't mining while watching a movie, I'd simply just be watching a movie anyway." In that case, the value of that particular round of effort may come in well below the value of regional buy orders for mineral X.
One of the constants of EVE is that there's no one-size-fits-all way to assess the value of an individual player's efforts. This is why the "minerals are not free" argument, while it holds water in the real world, doesn't cross over quite as nicely to the game world of EVE. This goes, as well, for any argument which states "You could be doing X to make more money, therefore you fail." Well yes, of course. We could all be playing the game the way you play it. But we aren't. And most players aren't. So ... uh ... yeah. |
Jorn Isu
Imperial Chamber of Commerce
2
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Posted - 2011.12.31 03:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:OP, and those who make the same argument, are only partly right. If the value of the effort required of you to mine those minerals was worth less than buy orders for those minerals in your region, that argument doesn't really apply. Mining is something that a lot of people can do semi-AFK, channelling their effort in multiple directions at once. For example, one might say "If I weren't mining while watching a movie, I'd simply just be watching a movie anyway." In that case, the value of that particular round of effort may come in well below the value of regional buy orders for mineral X.
One of the constants of EVE is that there's no one-size-fits-all way to assess the value of an individual player's efforts. This is why the "minerals are not free" argument, while it holds water in the real world, doesn't cross over quite as nicely to the game world of EVE. But, from a business perspective, it's correct to seperate the actions out.
So, here's what our industrialist did:
1) He went and mined 100k Trit, and make 365k ISK worth of value 2) He built a bunch of ****, which he then sold on the market for 250k. He quite literally destroyed 115k ISK of value in this step.
Net profit? 250k. But building his **** for 250k was a stupid decision. Not saying he's not allowed to make said decision, but it is a bad one. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
7
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Posted - 2011.12.31 04:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jorn Isu wrote:But, from a business perspective, it's correct to seperate the actions out.
So, here's what our industrialist did:
1) He went and mined 100k Trit, and make 365k ISK worth of value 2) He built a bunch of ****, which he then sold on the market for 250k. He quite literally destroyed 115k ISK of value in this step.
Net profit? 250k. But building his **** for 250k was a stupid decision. Not saying he's not allowed to make said decision, but it is a bad one.
I'm sure there are any number of other more profitable things you could be doing in the game. Why aren't you doing them? How is deciding to mine minerals and build stuff with them instead of just selling the minerals different than any of the other countless decisions one could make about how to play the game, and which ultimately affect the amount of ISK they make?
Just because mining/manufacturing looks more like a "business" than pirating in lowsec doesn't mean that decisions about roleplaying, or simply doing what you find desirable, don't or shouldn't come into play. Seriously, if everybody were forced to play the game as dispassionately as you seem to think they should, there probably wouldn't be much of anybody playing it at all. |
Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
103
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Posted - 2011.12.31 04:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hey look! A dead horse! Everyone go! Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour!
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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
83
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Posted - 2011.12.31 04:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aaron Knossos wrote:
Please l2math.
l2buycheapstuffandsellataprofit
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer Une Pour Tous
36
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Posted - 2011.12.31 09:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Buy all Caracals, reprocess, sell minerals, collect profit, repeat. |
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Etanna
Quamba Munitions
3
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Posted - 2011.12.31 11:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Hey look! A dead horse! Everyone go!
Damn it! Missed the band wagon again! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
705
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Posted - 2011.12.31 16:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
You are confusing "free" (as in "at no monetary charge") with "worthless" (or "worth less than market price").
Ore you mined yourself (or received as a gift) is technically free. You don't (usually) pay ISK for it. You (or somebody else) pay cash for the privilege of you being able to play to get that ore, but that's a different story and it (normally) involves no in-game ISK. Ore in this case (self-mined or received as gift or even can-stolen) is, as I said, TECHNICALLY "free", since you PAID NO ISK (you still paid something else, but again, another story). Then again, so is ISK. You (generally) don't pay ISK to get ISK (with a few exceptions, oops, another story), so technically, ISK is almost just as free too.
What ore IS NOT in either of those cases is worthless or worth less than market price (adjusting for regional prices, hauling costs, various fees or whatnot - but, again, yet another different story).
...
So, to recap : ore/minerals you get yourself ARE free, but they're NOT worthless nor worth less than market price.
HOWEVER, some people might value some other things you can not see even higher than that, and it's hard to put an ISK pricetag on "fun". Who's to say those people don't find selling stuff below material worth to be "fun" ? I've seen stranger things happen. And afterall, most people make ISK to spend in order to have fun, so... see where this is going ? If you want to profit from their "having fun", DO NOT rage about how they kill your market - instead, buy their cheap stuff and either refine it or relist it at whatever price you deem "appropriate".
In the end, we can probably all agree it's a bad BUSINESS decision, and if the person in question CLAIMS to make more profit that way, he's usually dead wrong. But it's not always about a business decision, and it's not always about maximum profits, as weird as that might look to you or me. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Zhu Khan
NK-14 Obsidian Mining Coalition
0
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Posted - 2011.12.31 16:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
I honestly think "free" miner industrialists have generated more tears than the combined efforts of every suicide ganker in the game. I believe Esunisen summed up the appropriate actions to take. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
4
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:OP, and those who make the same argument, are only partly right. If the value of the effort required of you to mine those minerals was worth less than buy orders for those minerals in your region, that argument doesn't really apply. Mining is something that a lot of people can do semi-AFK, channelling their effort in multiple directions at once. For example, one might say "If I weren't mining while watching a movie, I'd simply just be watching a movie anyway." In that case, the value of that particular round of effort may come in well below the value of regional buy orders for mineral X.
One of the constants of EVE is that there's no one-size-fits-all way to assess the value of an individual player's efforts. This is why the "minerals are not free" argument, while it holds water in the real world, doesn't cross over quite as nicely to the game world of EVE. This goes, as well, for any argument which states "You could be doing X to make more money, therefore you fail." Well yes, of course. We could all be playing the game the way you play it. But we aren't. And most players aren't. So ... uh ... yeah.
Yes very true that what you value your time at can make the minerals you afk or semi afk mine basically free. the fact remains that if you sell stuff you build below your regions mineral value you would make more isk just selling the minerals. So your argument that minerals are free if you akf or semi afk mine them means nothing.
If you are mining minerals to manufacture stuff for your own use then fine. your time may be worth less than you would have needed to spend to buy the stuff.
But if you are doing it to sell i.e. to make isk than selling items below there regional mineral value you are losing money. you would have more isk at the end of the day if you just sold the minerals.
The fact that you afk mined the minerals and consider the minerals as free is irrelevant. regardless you would still be making more isk selling the raw materials than making them into modules and selling what you made for less than its raw mineral value.
If you are just doing it to try out the manufacturing part of the game than the more power to you. just remember that all that stuff you put your time into making is most likely getting bought just to reprocess it back into minerals as you sold it for less than its mineral value.
If you seriously want to get into manufacturing it takes a lot of isk to get set up properly. You would reach your goal much faster by just mining and selling minerals while you train the needed manufacturing skills than by selling stuff you made at less than mineral value. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
95
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
The main issue in all of these threads is in trying to apply real life ideas to a GAME. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
4
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:The main issue in all of these threads is in trying to apply real life ideas to a GAME.
A GAME with a player controlled economy.
It only make sense that it would stir up debate just as the real world economy does.
just nobody kills themselves when they lose billions in a game.
Many players do take it very seriously. And will defend there opinions.
That is what debate is all about. Many people enjoy debating just as many enjoy mining regardless of the return.
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Gabba Cyno
9
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Posted - 2012.01.02 00:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Op. why do you care what someone else does? Enjoy the game for you and quit worrying about what some other guy is doing . |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
95
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Posted - 2012.01.02 01:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:The main issue in all of these threads is in trying to apply real life ideas to a GAME. A GAME with a player controlled economy. It only make sense that it would stir up debate just as the real world economy does. just nobody kills themselves when they lose billions in a game. Many players do take it very seriously. And will defend there opinions. That is what debate is all about. Many people enjoy debating just as many enjoy mining regardless of the return.
Yes a player driven economy. But still a game. The key factor there is that people will do things that don't make financial sense because they don't care. They don't care because what they are doing gives them enjoyment.
In general, from what I've seen, serious industrialists don't even bother to mine, as there is no way for them to mine enough minerals to feed their industrial machine. In that sense you could argue that people who mine their own minerals for building are wasting their time.
But some people like making things from start to finish. And maybe they just enjoy the thrill of seeing their item sold. But they don't enjoy playing the market game, and as such sell their items low to just get it sold. They don't care because it still gives them enjoyment.
I'm sure many traders laugh at me for selling billions of sleeper loot to buy orders in jita. But I don't have an interest in maintaing sell orders. I am sure I have thrown away billions in potential profits this way, but who cares? I have gotten enjoyment from the aspects of eve that I enjoy, and bypass the parts that feel too much like my real job.
Not trying to stop the debate by the way. Just offering a viewpoint other than "those people are dumb and don't understand math"
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Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.01.02 02:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Let's take a Catalyst as an example. At current prices in Jita, the total minerals that are required to make a Catalyst are worth between 790,000 and 830,000 ISK. The sell orders are placing these ships at around 890,000 and 1,000,000 ISK. Those who simply don't have the patience to make that kind of ISK by placing their finished products for at least 1 week are suffering a loss and that is their own fault for missing out on the profits.
Of course, no amount of debate will convince such players to wait a little to make a better profit because (as Derath pointed out) they don't care as long as they get enjoyment out of it. The same also applies to the sort of miners who don't have the patience to mark up their minerals in sell orders for a week or two. Of course, market traders will profit from the ignorance of fire sellers who don't care. So I guess the universe somehow balances out through that. |
Hung TuLo
Heavy Asset Relocation Inc Dec Shield
30
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Posted - 2012.01.03 18:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Minerals that I mine are Free to me. I say that because I did not buy them. They are in space and no one has ownership to them. Once they are in my cargo bay on my Orca no one can have them unless my Orca gets blown up or I use them or sell them.
take your "ores are not free" dogma to another part of the universe. I ain't buying it. "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
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Gumby Ambraelle
SON OF HEAVEN
13
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Posted - 2012.01.03 19:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Let's take a Catalyst as an example. At current prices in Jita, the total minerals that are required to make a Catalyst are worth between 790,000 and 830,000 ISK. The sell orders are placing these ships at around 890,000 and 1,000,000 ISK. Those who simply don't have the patience to make that kind of ISK by placing their finished products for at least 1 week are suffering a loss and that is their own fault for missing out on the profits. Of course, no amount of debate will convince such players to wait a little to make a better profit because (as Derath pointed out) they don't care as long as they get enjoyment out of it. The same also applies to the sort of miners who don't have the patience to mark up their minerals in sell orders for a week or two. Of course, market traders will profit from the ignorance of fire sellers who don't care. So I guess the universe somehow balances out through that. EDIT: Quote:While I'm very impressed with that Caracal that you built all by yourself, you're selling it for 3.5 million ISK. If you had sold the minerals instead, you'd have 4 million. I did some math there. Material / Mineralfor Caracal (using current prices posted on ore.Celestes.de) Tritanium Units / Unit Price / Subtotal 338,237 3.30 1,116,182.10 Pyerite 84,924 5.28 448,398.72 Mexallon 27,840 48.74 1,356,921.60 Isogen 5,812 64.94 377,431.28 Nocxium 1,404 483.31 678,567.24 Zydrine 304 751.39 228,422.56 Total ISK in minerals: 4,205,923.50 ISK According to Eve-Central, a Caracal is selling between 4.5mil and 5.5mil.Of course, these are all based on the sell orders posted. If the producer is doing a fire sale with a Caracal, then the going worth is 3.5mil (which is less than the mineral worth). Just saying.
As an AFK miner\ sports watching miner... I can mine for about 1 TV show or sports event... reprocess all the minerals spend about 700K on what I cannot mine and make 5 catalys. I then sell those catalyst for approx 850K each, which is slightly above mineral cost. Repeat as needed... I can sell approx 25 catalyst in a week in 3 systems... All of this with a retreiver and very little direct solo eve time invested... I have sold enough catalyst to pay for the original retreiver, all the fittings, all the skill books used to train for that retreiver...so are my minerals free yet? I am just curious.. :)
When I have blocks of dedicated time then I can mission run, loot the kills, reprocess loot and have fewer minerals I must buy. When I do not have blocks of time then I can mine/manufacture and enjoy my TV\sporting events.
I get to enjoy the game the way I wish to play it. I get to make some ISK while I do it and I do not have to comply with the "correct" way to play or make the maxium isk per hour.
It is a game and it is a player driven economy...and all types of players drive that economy. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
426
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Posted - 2012.01.03 19:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).
It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals). |
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
14
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Posted - 2012.01.03 20:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).
It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals).
I fail to see why anyone who plays the market even semi-seriously would honestly give a crap if someone else (a) thinks "minerals I mine are free" and/or (b) lists her/his items below established "market value". Just buy the underpriced goods and flip them for a profit. End of story.
Stop trying to "educate the masses" - they don't want to hear your message, and the louder you talk, the deeper they shove their fingers into their ears trying to drown out your "market nonsense".
Velicitia wrote:you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).
It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals).
I most certainly would *NOT* be unhappy with this person - in fact, I might even send them an evemail asking if they'd be interested in supplying me with ships. They get their $$ immediately, I flip the ships over time for mad-ISKs. Win-win. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
427
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Posted - 2012.01.03 20:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:Velicitia wrote:you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).
It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals). I most certainly would *NOT* be unhappy with this person - in fact, I might even send them an evemail asking if they'd be interested in supplying me with ships. They get their $$ immediately, I flip the ships over time for mad-ISKs. Win-win.
TBH, I melt them for minerals...
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Gumby Ambraelle
SON OF HEAVEN
13
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Posted - 2012.01.04 11:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
I also figure that one day I will be out mining, and this blob will come by and gank me, and tha last thing I will see is one of the catalyst that I built firing the fatal shot...and I will think of the sweet irony of it all as I wake up in a puddle of goo some where.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
108
|
Posted - 2012.01.04 12:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
I like seeing the same threads pop across the years.
No one ever stopped to think that - after all - the time and money you are spending in the game are not free as well?
If you are so anal about efficiency, you should quit EvE and find a (second) job. Even flipping burgers will net you more and will be oh-so-more efficient and business sound than playing EvE. |
Accendi
Dimension A
0
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Posted - 2012.01.04 12:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
If i go out when its raining and collect water in a bucket, is that not free? |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
189
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Posted - 2012.01.04 13:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Accendi wrote:If i go out when its raining and collect water in a bucket, is that not free?
No cos you could have set up a paddling pool and collected more so bucketcollecterzsux
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
J Kunjeh
309
|
Posted - 2012.01.04 15:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
To the MIMAF haters: do you realize that you're actually paying more to play Eve than you think? ALOT more? It's not just your sub, but the MASSIVE lost opportunity this game represents. You could be making a ton of RL money if you were spending time outside of the game trying to do so instead of spending 20 hours a week in the game trying to make your ISK balance rise (or worse, wasting time on the forums trying to convince others that the minerals they mine aren't free). Get a life, seriously. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
7
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Posted - 2012.01.04 17:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hi.
It happens because we get excited about having made something. We mined the minerals, made the items, and then we want to sell them. We look at the market and see what the current cheapest is and then list ours cheaper because we want to see our product sell.
And then when it does we almost pee ourselves in exitement!!!! And we know we lost money [compared to] if we'd have just sold the minerals.
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