OP, and those who make the same argument, are only partly right. If the value of the effort required of you to mine those minerals was worth less than buy orders for those minerals in your region, that argument doesn't really apply. Mining is something that a lot of people can do semi-AFK, channelling their effort in multiple directions at once. For example, one might say "If I weren't mining while watching a movie, I'd simply just be watching a movie anyway." In that case, the value of that particular round of effort may come in well below the value of regional buy orders for mineral X.

One of the constants of EVE is that there's no one-size-fits-all way to assess the value of an individual player's efforts. This is why the "minerals are not free" argument, while it holds water in the real world, doesn't cross over quite as nicely to the game world of EVE.

But, from a business perspective, it's correct to seperate the actions out.

So, here's what our industrialist did:

1) He went and mined 100k Trit, and make 365k ISK worth of value
2) He built a bunch of ****, which he then sold on the market for 250k. He quite literally destroyed 115k ISK of value in this step.

Net profit? 250k. But building his **** for 250k was a stupid decision. Not saying he's not allowed to make said decision, but it is a bad one.

Please l2math.

Hey look! A dead horse! Everyone go!

OP, and those who make the same argument, are only partly right. If the value of the effort required of you to mine those minerals was worth less than buy orders for those minerals in your region, that argument doesn't really apply. Mining is something that a lot of people can do semi-AFK, channelling their effort in multiple directions at once. For example, one might say "If I weren't mining while watching a movie, I'd simply just be watching a movie anyway." In that case, the value of that particular round of effort may come in well below the value of regional buy orders for mineral X.

One of the constants of EVE is that there's no one-size-fits-all way to assess the value of an individual player's efforts. This is why the "minerals are not free" argument, while it holds water in the real world, doesn't cross over quite as nicely to the game world of EVE. This goes, as well, for any argument which states "You could be doing X to make more money, therefore you fail." Well yes, of course. We could all be playing the game the way you play it. But we aren't. And most players aren't. So ... uh ... yeah.

The main issue in all of these threads is in trying to apply real life ideas to a GAME.

A GAME with a player controlled economy.

It only make sense that it would stir up debate just as the real world economy does.

just nobody kills themselves when they lose billions in a game.

Many players do take it very seriously. And will defend there opinions.

That is what debate is all about. Many people enjoy debating just as many enjoy mining regardless of the return.

Let's take a Catalyst as an example. At current prices in Jita, the total minerals that are required to make a Catalyst are worth between 790,000 and 830,000 ISK. The sell orders are placing these ships at around 890,000 and 1,000,000 ISK. Those who simply don't have the patience to make that kind of ISK by placing their finished products for at least 1 week are suffering a loss and that is their own fault for missing out on the profits.

Of course, no amount of debate will convince such players to wait a little to make a better profit because (as Derath pointed out) they don't care as long as they get enjoyment out of it. The same also applies to the sort of miners who don't have the patience to mark up their minerals in sell orders for a week or two. Of course, market traders will profit from the ignorance of fire sellers who don't care. So I guess the universe somehow balances out through that.

EDIT:



I did some math there.

Material / Mineralfor Caracal (using current prices posted on ore.Celestes.de)
Tritanium
Units / Unit Price / Subtotal
338,237 3.30 1,116,182.10
Pyerite
84,924 5.28 448,398.72
Mexallon
27,840 48.74 1,356,921.60
Isogen
5,812 64.94 377,431.28
Nocxium
1,404 483.31 678,567.24
Zydrine
304 751.39 228,422.56

Total ISK in minerals: 4,205,923.50 ISK

According to Eve-Central, a Caracal is selling between 4.5mil and 5.5mil.

Of course, these are all based on the sell orders posted. If the producer is doing a fire sale with a Caracal, then the going worth is 3.5mil (which is less than the mineral worth). Just saying.

you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).

It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals).

you're doing it "right" (still a little lower than you could be selling the ships for, but "right" nonetheless).

It's the guys who mine all the minerals, buy 700k of high-ends to build 5 catalysts, and then sell them for 200k apiece thinking they're "making a profit" that people are usually unhappy with. Granted, I troll the markets looking for those kind of deals (and praise the dudes who are doing it wrong for the free minerals).

I most certainly would *NOT* be unhappy with this person - in fact, I might even send them an evemail asking if they'd be interested in supplying me with ships. They get their $$ immediately, I flip the ships over time for mad-ISKs. Win-win.

If i go out when its raining and collect water in a bucket, is that not free?

Yes a player driven economy. But still a game. The key factor there is that people will do things that don't make financial sense because they don't care. They don't care because what they are doing gives them enjoyment.aspects of eve that I enjoy, and bypass the parts that feel too much like my real job.

So if you really want to drive that argument to the absurdom (is that even a word?) you might as well whine that people run lvl 4 when they could be doing incursions/sleepers/anoms (or whatever is the latest huge isk faucet) since they are making less ISK.

Just because you mined those minerals yourself, doesn't mean they are free. They have a value, as determined by the buy orders in your region.

While I'm very impressed with that Caracal that you built all by yourself, you're selling it for 3.5 million ISK. If you had sold the minerals instead, you'd have 4 million.

Please l2math.

I see this as something like insisting that one can only count real world objects. That math somehow doesn't apply to GAMES.

It's worth noting here that the fact of "being a game" is completely irrelevant to the economics of Eve other than implying that there's a larger economy that virtually all market participants participate in, which typically has higher priority. You can still apply real life ideas to the GAME because the GAME is just as much real life as anything else. In addition, it doesn't matter if something is real life or not anyway. If you have the market real, virtual, or some other state of being, you have the hooks in which to apply those real world ideas.

What is up with all of these "People don't care because it's a game" arguments? It's one of the most absurd damage control defenses I have ever heard.

you might be right but atleast that new player that just build that caracal is probably very proud of his / her archievment
just when i was ,when i finally did build my freighter , mining all the minerals myself selling the over production of minerals and buying the hugh end minerals from that profit

that was a day to remember when she finally was finished , my pride and joy

It's the price they're willing to pay to have fun in the game.

You could draw a parallel to real life jobs: I work for company ABC doing job XYZ. I could move to company EFG and do job VWX, which is pretty close to XYZ, but not exactly the same and make 1.5 times my current salary. But I don't really like doing VWX very much and I prefer doing XYZ, so I'll take a lesser salary in order to have a 'fun' job, or at least the job I like best between the two options. (I always overlook something when doing those kind of comparisons, please point it out :P)

People who do that, as others have pointed out, like Manufacturing. Maybe they don't like playing market games. Maybe they can't be bothered with the few minutes it takes to make market research, because they hate that. It's a few minutes to much for them. I know I do it. In the end, they take a pay cut in exchange for doing what they like.

"But they would make more money just selling the minerals!". Yes, but they enjoy manufacturing. Yes they would be making more profit, but they wouldn't have fun.

Is it a poor decision? From a pure profit perpective, yes undoubtedly. Can you really fault them for doing what they like in the game? I wouldn't think so.

It's the same reason you're playing EvE right now, or browsing the forums. You could be making RL money by working! Why are you sitting there playing a game? Because you need a break from your work week and you enjoy playing EvE.

Alaadra

The main problem with the "minerals I mine are free" argument is that this is a GAME.

If this were a real business in the real world it would be one thing. But for some it is a valid point that if they enjoy mining, and then making stuff with it and then selling it for whatever, its all good.

Heck by the same argument nobody should ever PVP. I cannot ever thing of a time where I made isk from PVP. So everyone should stop killing and ganking each other cause you know you are losing money by doing so...

No, in fact it is completely relevant and you are missing the point. The "It's a GAME argument" is not that you cannot apply real life math to EVE. Of course you can. The point where the comparison breaks down is not in the hard math, but the motivation.

The "motivation" doesn't matter to economics. In real life, which Eve is part of, doing things for fun instead of profit is quite frequent. It blows away some of the more dubious economic models (such as the frequent assumption that economic actors are rationally maximizing the time-value of their assets). But economics works just as well as it does anywhere else.