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Bumping - isn't this an exploit?

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Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.18 17:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Hugh Ruka Bumping is not exploit. True. When someone asked a Dev awhile ago just how they imagined a Titan ever getting killed via normal game mechanics (i.e. no metagaming) a very large part of the Dev's answer was bumping the hell out of the Titan. So, far from being an exploit it seems the Devs view it as an integral part of combat mechanics within EVE. That said yes, there really needs to be some rhyme and reason to ship mass when a bump occurs. Technically running your ski boat into an aircraft carrier would bump the carrier a smidge but I doubt it would be noticeable and it is your ski boat that will do the vast majority of the moving. Read carefully the original post and the followuing one. He was speaking of a war situation were the one bumping was at war with the Titan. The key is in that "at war with the target". So if the target can retaliate against the one bumpint it is ok, it the target can't retaliate (high sec), it is an exploit.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Venkul Mul Read carefully the original post and the followuing one. He was speaking of a war situation were the one bumping was at war with the Titan. The key is in that "at war with the target". So if the target can retaliate against the one bumpint it is ok, it the target can't retaliate (high sec), it is an exploit. Because you see so many titans in high sec.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:16:00 - [33] "Bum Ping"? Isn't he a Chinese macroer? Oh, sorry, wrong thread! ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
E Vile Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.18 18:33:00 - [34] A inty bumping a titan or similar is plain ridiculas. There totally should be damage to that tiny ship, and no effect on the titan. Like a fly on a windshield. Right now the fly would knock the car into a ditch....that's really lame. You want to be bright enough to ram a large ship with a tiny ship, you SHOULD pay the price. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Reithan Caldari Zero Team	Posted - 2007.05.19 08:51:00 - [35] Bumping is a ridiculous, idiotic exploitive technique based on faulty in-game physics. Fix the physics. STOP supporting bumping and just balance the damn titans properly.
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:12:00 - [36] hay guyz pls remove teh tactics from da game i do not understand it --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:24:00 - [37] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Venkul Mul Read carefully the original post and the followuing one. He was speaking of a war situation were the one bumping was at war with the Titan. The key is in that "at war with the target". So if the target can retaliate against the one bumpint it is ok, it the target can't retaliate (high sec), it is an exploit. Because you see so many titans in high sec. The discussion is about "bumping", not "bumping titans" or "bumping in low sec". As the dev post was used as a pro argument, I pointed that it was limited to war situations, not intended as a general suggestion.
Montero Black Omega Security	Posted - 2007.05.19 09:49:00 - [38] By the way all ships have a built in avoidance system so if there is another boat in the way it automaticaly moves. Learn your backstory jesus guys; nothing ever hits anything, just automaticaly avoids it. --------- Scrapheap Challenge
Yunii Freedom Builders Inc. Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:09:00 - [39] Wondering if bumping a POS with a Titan knocking all the ships that weren't in the array(s) outside of the force field and stealing them is fair game to ?
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:16:00 - [40] bumping should cause damage but I don't know how that would be implemented and I'm sure it would be abused, i.e. bumping ships to kill them (if your ship can outlast the damage) instead of using costly ammo Please Help me, YOU could be next!
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 18/05/2007 14:06:12 Originally by: Susan Acid There's no gravity in space.Therefore a shuttle weighs as much as a Titan.I suppose? based on that, jumping like a madman would push the earth quite fast out of its orbit :p and i dont tell you about a cannon shooting in air, a plane landing or a nuke exploding ! I've been trying that for years but the Earth still lives dammit! *shakes fist dramatically
smashsmash	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:26:00 - [42] don't worry about it. someone in IS will come up with some lore to fix this problem.
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 18/05/2007 14:06:12 Originally by: Susan Acid There's no gravity in space.Therefore a shuttle weighs as much as a Titan.I suppose? based on that, jumping like a madman would push the earth quite fast out of its orbit :p and i dont tell you about a cannon shooting in air, a plane landing or a nuke exploding ! I've been trying that for years but the Earth still lives dammit! *shakes fist dramatically Isn't it all to do with momentum in space? If a penny knocks into a staionary titan then the momentum is carried forward... so the penny stops and the titan gets bounced away. lol I love space physics Please Help me, YOU could be next!
El Chico Minmatar BlackHole Entertainment	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:03:00 - [44] Collison damage? Cmon the servers have a hard time handling the lots of us already. What do you think will happen if the servers also have to calculate collision damage between every ship? And on top of that I think alot of pilots wouldnt be happy if they undock in a mission hub or jita and get instantly blown up by collision damage.
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:30:00 - [45] Everyone is missing the point. Bumping isn't "pushing" another ship, and the game mechanics reflect this fact. Jump in a frigate or shuttle and take a run at a battleship from the side.....you skip like a rock. What "bumping" actually is...onboard navcomps. Air traffic control has them to prevent mid-air collisions, so why wouldn't you have them in space to prevent pile-ups at docking tubes and stargates? That's why smaller ships can move battleships, dreads, and titans from the proper angle (namely from the front)...it's the bigger ship automatically correcting to keep from running over the little guy. So how do bigger ships come together and push each other around? That brings us to Sci-Fi 101 Lesson #2: deflector shielding. See, space is full of all sorts of nasty hunks and chunks and bits of rock from the size of a pencil eraser to bigger than the human body, and they're all moving at completely random and usually horrendously high speeds. Deflector shielding prevents ships in space from getting perforated. In fact, that's NASA's major hang-up on a Mars mission at this point.....they aren't sure how to get a large manned craft there and back again without it turning into swiss cheese going there and back again. If you doubt me, check up on how long the flight crews have spent on the past few shuttle flights checking the heat tiles on the underside of their bird for micrometeor damage. Lose and ceramic tile, and it's Columbia all over again...... So, when two larger craft meet in space (nano-domi vs other BS, for example) there is something of a collision per sae, but it's shield on shield, so no damage occurs. The rest of it is just a violent navcomp compensation to keep from getting shredded like paper. Here is where CCP needs to add the only adjustment to the current system....High Speeds. The person doing the high-speed ramming needs to feel it...big time. The ship taking the hit wouldn't feel it as much, being the "stationary" object, relatively speaking. Jump on a motorcycle and ride it into a cinderblock wall at 60 mph....then ask the wall if it cares. The answer is "not really"...but you and the bike sure as hell do. In a ramming spaceship, the structural integrity forcefields would become over-taxed and fail, and the inty doing 5km/s would splatter against the deflection shield like that bug that hit your windshield last time you went for a latenight drive in the summer. So, in summation....not an exploit, just a bit of science fiction waiting to become science fact, although in some instances the act of ramming should severely cripple, if not completely destroy the agressor's ship. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:49:00 - [46] how on earth could crashing into somebody be considered an exploit anyway? if you wanted a non-contact game, i'd recommend mini putt. Watch out though! you could have somebody's eye out with that ball.
Phoenix Britannian Gallente Virtue Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Phoenix Britannian on 25/05/2007 13:16:39 Originally by: Adaris Isn't it all to do with momentum in space? If a penny knocks into a staionary titan then the momentum is carried forward... so the penny stops and the titan gets bounced away. lol I love space physics Yes, and no. The energy required to move an object in space, and everywhere else, is proportional to it's mass. So, if a penny is going at 10000 m/s and crashes into a stationary object which has a million times the mass of the penny, a portion of the kinetic energy of the penny is transfered into the object it crashed into, but since the object with a million times the mass of the penny requires a lot more energy to get moving, it might take off at 0.01 m/s or whatever, but would no where near fly off into space. If both were in motion and they hit head on, then the object of higher mass would slow by the amount of the energy in relation to it's mass impacted on it by the less massive object. For a planet like Earth, which has a mass of about 6000 yoctograms, if my conversion from kg to g is correct, thats 6000 x 10^24, and has enough energy to move it through space at around 30 km/s, you'd have to hit it with something really massive, like another planet, going pretty quickly to have a hope of disrupting it's motion through space. - Phoenix Britannian
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:29:00 - [48] Edited by: Splagada on 18/05/2007 14:06:12 Originally by: Susan Acid There's no gravity in space.Therefore a shuttle weighs as much as a Titan.I suppose? I endorce this comment. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Montero By the way all ships have a built in avoidance system so if there is another boat in the way it automaticaly moves. Learn your backstory jesus guys; nothing ever hits anything, just automaticaly avoids it. nah, not really, i've seen vagabonds bump haulers at 2kms, far faster than a hauler could move under it's own power... Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Pattern Clarc Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Phoenix Britannian For a planet like Earth, which has a mass of about 6000 yoctograms, if my conversion from kg to g is correct, thats 6000 x 10^24, and has enough energy to move it through space at around 30 km/s, you'd have to hit it with something really massive, like another planet, going pretty quickly to have a hope of disrupting it's motion through space. The last time something like that happened the moon was born. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:44:00 - [51] You guys should read more... Titanium alloy the ships are made of is titanium and rubber... Big giant titanium/rubber ship... Help look at the thorax, definitively some sort of latex alloy... ----------- It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone...
Biltic Creen Minmatar Deutsche Minen und Werke Guardian Federation	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:49:00 - [52] When will CCP be fixing web-warping? Did i miss something ? _____ This post is not my personal opinion. It does represent the standpoint of every single player !
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Susan Acid There's no gravity in space.Therefore a shuttle weighs as much as a Titan.I suppose? WTS: Physics 101 Inertia depends solely on mass, not weight. actually, he's right, since both are weightless, they DO weigh the same: absolutely bugger all! however, the titan has a much greater MASS which is (as DS said) what is relevant here. i like the thought of titans not being bumped by shuttles, but instead removing said obstacles from their path (possibly which a satisfying "thud" as the shuttle detonates across the bow of the titan) the simple solution would be to have all the bumping effects apply only to the less-massive ship, so a shuttle would get bumped well clear and a freighter would simple continue on it's merry way as if nothing had happened. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:24:00 - [54] Edited by: Janu Hull on 25/05/2007 18:26:19 Considering the velocities ships move at in EVE, I'm pretty sure there's some serious inertial dampening involved. You're average person would be crushed against a wall moving at 100m/s, moving at 200m/s would be enough to kill them, moving at 2900m/s would be enough to reduce the human body to a thin organic film against the back wall. Dialing down inertia negates vast the mass effect, therefore an inertially dampened Titan very well could have the same effective mass as an intertially dampened frigate. I base this on the g forces caused. Earth's native gravity is 9.8 meters per second. Round to 10m/s for simplicity, and look at the velocities attained by some of the faster recon frigates. Also consider that inertial movement would mean that constant thrust would cause constant acceleration. Obviously, the physics model in EVE does not support this, so its only assumable that constant thrust needed for movement is the result of seriously negated inertial motion. So in collisions, mass just isn't a factor. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Rigsta Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Dark Shikari b) You put your ship IN THE PATH OF another ship. In this case, a shuttle can stop a titan. This is bugged to hell. Or more often, a corpse can stop and undocking carrier/dread for about half an hour Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:48:00 - [56] CCP needs to fix the clipping issue if bumping is not a 'bug'... ships should in no way be able to put themselves inside another ship. So if your shuttle emerges from a station with a titan sitting at the door it should get shot off somewhere like a watermellon seed. Conversely a titan emerging from a station should shove the shuttle out of the way at the speed of the titan (no more slinging).
Seth Ruin Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 25/05/2007 18:26:19I base this on the g forces caused. Earth's native gravity is 9.8 meters per second. Round to 10m/s for simplicity, and look at the velocities attained by some of the faster recon frigates. Almost, but not entirely correct... Gravity is a force, which is defined as *(mass)(acceleration). Acceleration, however, is (velocity)/(change in time)**. A person could theoretically travel at any speed imaginable (the rotational velocity of the earth is approximately 470m/s, its orbital velocity is approximately 29800m/s, and we're not constantly worried about accidentally falling to the west or flying off the planet) However, your point would still remain valid if we considered the amazing acceleration capacity of these ships. ... But EVE is not a physics simulator.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:54:00 - [58] Edited by: DarkMatter on 25/05/2007 18:53:04 EVE's current bumping mechanic is evidence of very poor game/physics engine design... Hopefully it's updated someday. It's not an exploit, but it sure smells like one, looks like one, etc... Building the homestead
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Janu Hull Edited by: Janu Hull on 25/05/2007 18:26:19I base this on the g forces caused. Earth's native gravity is 9.8 meters per second. Round to 10m/s for simplicity, and look at the velocities attained by some of the faster recon frigates. Almost, but not entirely correct... Gravity is a force, which is defined as *(mass)(acceleration). Acceleration, however, is (velocity)/(change in time)**. A person could theoretically travel at any speed imaginable (the rotational velocity of the earth is approximately 470m/s, its orbital velocity is approximately 29800m/s, and we're not constantly worried about accidentally falling to the west or flying off the planet) However, your point would still remain valid if we considered the amazing acceleration capacity of these ships. ... But EVE is not a physics simulator. Gack, ya got me. That's what I get for writing off the cuff. And you're right, its not a physics simulator. That said, doesn't make the physics model in play all that great.
Thaeya Venushika	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:38:00 - [60] Quote: the simple solution would be to have all the bumping effects apply only to the less-massive ship, so a shuttle would get bumped well clear and a freighter would simple continue on it's merry way as if nothing had happened. The problem with this solution is if a BS bumped a cruiser, the cruiser would go flying since it has less mass. I agree with the anchoring idea, with no anchoring allowed at or near stations. If a ship is anchored, it shouldn't move. I've had my BS bumped, well pretty much rammed into from a cruiser flying at 5000 m/s. I was thrown at over 1000 m/s! That's a bit extreme

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