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Tanis.	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:29:00 - [1] Here you can discuss the upcomming feature: Outpost Improvements! You can find information about this and other new things here. Please keep posts constructive and on topic. ____________________________ I break things. GM Voodoo > That plan really straddles the fine line between genius and idiocy. Tanis. > And that differs from everything else I say how? [Bug Report Here][How to write a good bug report][Test server rules]

Chib Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.26 06:22:00 - [2] nothing really elaborated much on this and i cant get onto sisi atm as my accound was deactivated when last mirror was done anyone got any actual info on this ---------------------------------------------
Commander BlackJack Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.05.27 05:23:00 - [3] Edited by: Commander BlackJack on 27/05/2007 05:22:35 Quote: Outpost Warfare. Targetable Outpost Services. Individual services offered by outposts are now vulnerable to precision strikes. Attacking players will see a list of ôopportunity targetsö in their overview as they approach these stations, each of which will have different hit point values depending on their importance. Servicesùincluding any jobs running at the time of attackùwill become unavailable for outpost residents as they are destroyed, but can be restored once selective criteria are met. Outpost Upgrades. Tiered Improvement Opportunities. Hierarchal ôconstruction pathsö for increasing the economic vitality of outposts will be implemented. These station improvements must first be purchased as construction platforms, then anchored at the outpost site, and supplied with the requisite materials. Once built, these upgrades are permanent, even if the outpost is lost. Possible improvements include the addition of office, factory, or research slots; increasing the efficiency of reprocessing and manufacturing facilities; or adding these services to the outpost. The upgrade level of the outpost determines the total number of improvements that can be made, the greatest of which are functions of race and sovereignty conditions. Quote: Revelations 2 will make sovereignty more modular by adding four different tiers of ownership and broadening its scope to the constellation level. Structured incentives and intermediary objectivesùwith unique benefits offered at each tierùwill be available for alliances to pursue, but with the added challenge of contending with the tactical changes to starbase warfare. The benefits at each tier include which outpost upgrades can be added, what structures can be anchored around starbases, and how much fuel is required to sustain them. Sovereignty tiers include Territory, Protectorate, Province, and Constellation Capital. The latter is achievable through Constellation Sovereignty, which is reached when half of the systems in a given constellation become official ôterritoriesö of the same alliance; three or more outposts and/or conquerable stations reside with the constellation; and at least one system is a Provinceùthe alliance-declared capital system of that constellation. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=469
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.05.27 11:55:00 - [4] Well I like the idea of the outpost improvements and having looked over the lists in the test server market, there seems to be a range of options. I wonder if the costs of some of these upgrades are finalised though. With rough costs of 20, 100 and 200 billion (not including construction materials) for the basic, improved and advanced, it seems extremely costly for the relatively small benefits they bring. I also noticed Rank 1,2 and 3 "Upgrade Platforms" at 20, 100 and 200bil. I hope they are not required as well!
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Largo leGrande Well I like the idea of the outpost improvements and having looked over the lists in the test server market, there seems to be a range of options. I wonder if the costs of some of these upgrades are finalised though. With rough costs of 20, 100 and 200 billion (not including construction materials) for the basic, improved and advanced, it seems extremely costly for the relatively small benefits they bring. I also noticed Rank 1,2 and 3 "Upgrade Platforms" at 20, 100 and 200bil. I hope they are not required as well! Wait, the improvements are seeded? Where are they? I'm not seeing the completed eggs nor the BPOs anywhere. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Mathias Zealot Lynx Frontier Inc. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 02:26:00 - [6] I must agree with Largo on this... when a single basic improvement costs nearly as much as a whole outpost, and the higher tier upgrades cost enough to bankrupt any but the most massive alliances in game (doubly so if the higher rank upgrade platforms are needed to add these), their viability is almost zero. why spend 20 billion on an upgrade platform and another 20 billion on a factory upgrade when you can just build another amarr outpost a system away and have nearly enough left over for a mothership Either the final prices for these are going to be much lower or they are going to be essentially useless. --- "Come back with your shield, or on it."
Aiyleena Iluvatar	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Mathias Zealot Iwhy spend 20 billion on an upgrade platform and another 20 billion on a factory upgrade when you can just build another amarr outpost a system away and have nearly enough left over for a mothership Either the final prices for these are going to be much lower or they are going to be essentially useless. office and slot addition upgrades should be way under the original outpost costs. only time speedup and the refineyield upgrades have the potential that they should cost that much

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.05.29 17:19:00 - [8] the prices are not set in stone. The process in brief is as follow, you have three Upgrade platforms and basic, standard, advanced improvement platform which offer a variety of bonuses. Just like outpost eggs, you anchor a rank 1 upgrade platform, fill it with required ingredients before downtime, after downtime you have rank 1 slots unlocked, then you can anchor an improvement egg, and repeat the process to get the upgrade. Each rank of upgrade requires different levels of sovereignty. The very provisional but updated prices are: Upgrade Platforms Rank 1: 10 billion Rank 2: 40 billion Rank 3: 160 billion Improvement Platforms Basic: 1 billion Standard: 4 billion Advanced: 16 billion Thats a little bit more provisional information for you, but I will leave it to my colleague and his very detailed blog to explain the nitty gritty which should be published in next few days hopefully.

Bruno Bonner Gallente Lutin Group	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:22:00 - [9] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Just like outpost eggs, you anchor a rank 1 upgrade platform, fill it with required ingredients before downtime, after downtime you have rank 1 slots unlocked, then you can anchor an improvement egg, and repeat the process to get the upgrade just a small question, will this platforms and upgrades have a visual impact on the outpost itself? as in able to recognize if an outpost has been upgraded or not from it's outer shape? regards Bruno ------ aka BinderAJ
Plutus HighTech Marines Ltd. FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:56:00 - [10] I have just tried to anchor both a Rank 1 upgrade platform and a Amarr basic reprocessing imp platform at my outpost, both about 6500m from station on opposit sides. Both come with this error: 2007.05.29 19:46:39 Notify You cannot anchor a Station Upgrade Platform within 5,000 m of a Station in space. Are they broken or do i need to do it another way ? /Plutus Producer of Mjolnir Javelin Torpedos
Mahrin Skel Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.29 20:05:00 - [11] I don't like this idea that basic Outpost functionality is going to be vulnerable to someone coming in at 0900 GMT and blowing away factory jobs, refining capability, office slots? So we could log in to find that all of our corp hangars are impounded, but that doesn't matter because we can't refine our ore to provide minerals for the factory jobs that can't be run anyway? So we spent 30B to build an outpost, and if we don't want to keep paying to repair the silly thing we've got to switch back to POS-based production, not even able to use the corp hangar BPO lockdown? Please tell me this isn't going to be part of Rev2? Put that in, and within a week the only use of Outposts will be cloning, insurance, and refitting (unless you're going to let those be killed as well?). And I agree about the outpost upgrade prices, the only ones that will get used is the refining efficiency. Everything else, it would be cheaper to put up a POS (for factories or labs) or build another outpost in the next system. --Dave
Mahrin Skel Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.29 21:05:00 - [12] Originally by: CCP Chronotis the prices are not set in stone. The process in brief is as follow, you have three Upgrade platforms and basic, standard, advanced improvement platform which offer a variety of bonuses. Just like outpost eggs, you anchor a rank 1 upgrade platform, fill it with required ingredients before downtime, after downtime you have rank 1 slots unlocked, then you can anchor an improvement egg, and repeat the process to get the upgrade. Each rank of upgrade requires different levels of sovereignty. The very provisional but updated prices are: Upgrade Platforms Rank 1: 10 billion Rank 2: 40 billion Rank 3: 160 billion Improvement Platforms Basic: 1 billion Standard: 4 billion Advanced: 16 billion Thats a little bit more provisional information for you, but I will leave it to my colleague and his very detailed blog to explain the nitty gritty which should be published in next few days hopefully. I've been looking at this some more. Let's take a typical case, my Alliance want more Factory slots, and we already have an Amarr factory outpost. We can: 1) Upgrade our existing Amarr outpost with a rank 1 upgrade platform (10B), and get both rank 1 Factory improvements (2B). Counting the efficiency increase, our gain in effective factory capability is 11.25 slots for 12B. 2) Build a new Factory outpost in the next system (24B). We gain 15 slots, have to maintain more system defense POS, and have another outpost (strategically a wash, more strategic depth but another point the enemy can attack). We also have one more system where freighters can dock up immediately if hostiles are sighted. The next time, we can either spend 48B for another 15.1666... slots, or 24B for 15. The next, 192B for about 25 slots worth. Or 24B for 15. The alternative to any of this is putting up more POS with assembly arrays in an existing station system, at an up-front cost of about 50M per slot and roughly 10M per week to maintain, and making that system more secure. I don't expect to see a lot of stations upgraded beyond rank 1. Okay, then there's refining. Without specialist refining skills, you lose about 12.5% of minerals in a Minmatar refinery (2.5% with specialist refines), vs. 25% in a POS (plus POS maintenance). At upgrade rank 3, a non-minmatar Outpost will lose 5% more (at a cumulative cost of over 220B, who in their right mind is not going to put up a Refinery outpost instead?). At upgrade rank 1, the Minimatar outpost will lose about 7.5% per refine with normal refining skills (0% with specialist skills). Assuming the outpost is collecting 4B a week in minerals, it would increase it by about 250M a week and the improvement would pay off in a little under 1 year. The next step would cost 44B, and would need over 4 years to pay off. The third stage would need 176B, and would take 27 years to pay off. Yes, the alliance as a whole will gain more in increased productivity (as well as their renters), but from the POV of the station holder he's better off putting a new refinery up somewhere else than upgrading his Minmatar outpost. These are the "best case" examples, and they just don't add up. What kills them is the high cost of the Upgrade platforms. With a structure like 5B, 10B, 20B, the numbers start working, it makes more sense to upgrade outposts rather than build more or use POS-based alternatives. --Dave
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:23:00 - [13] Originally by: CCP Chronotis the prices are not set in stone. Thanks for the info. I think this thread was just going to go silent as potentially interested players took a quick glance over the upgrade prices on the test server and concluded "nice idea, not ecomonically viable." We are finally getting to the stage where large scale manufacturing in 0.0 is approaching the point where it can compete with empire. Shipping of compressed minerals by carrier, reprocessing with small-ish losses at minmatar outposts, construction at amarr outposts using faster-than-empire build slots. At the moment I imagine the main factor driving this process is the construction of motherships and titans. But slots are tight and use of pos assembly arrays adds another 10% loss in materials on ships already costing multiple billions. These outpost upgrades have the potential to ramp up 0.0 manufacturing to the point where some alliances could transfer a lot more of their empire-side production out to their home regions. If the sums add up. As Mahrin Skel rightly points out, some of these upgrades are simply not viable and will never be built at the current costs. These large capital projects have resulted in some alliances gaining players with good experience of manufacturing who spend most of their time dedicated to that, rather than perhaps pvp. Those are the people who are going to be in need of extra build slots, faster slots, better refinery efficiency. But large 0.0 alliances these days aren't wanting to build things just for fun. They have wars to fight and the likes of motherships, titans and even just dread/carrier fleets take significant capital to develop and maintain. It must make economic sense. Mahrin could well be in the same position as I, seeing a situation where he's going to alliance leadership and suggesting a upgrade project that will take 4 years or even 20+ years to make economic sense! Well I doubt either of us would make ourselves look foolish by even suggesting it The basic cost of an outpost is a sensible baseline. Any upgrade that costs more than just building another outpost, yet does not give significant benefits, will simply not be constructed. With the new prices, some of the basic improvements might gain interest. But the standard and advanced are still very unlikely. If on the other hand they are revised, this could be an excellent patch for industry and large scale manufacturing in 0.0. Largo
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:38:00 - [14] I haven't really run the math here yet, so everything I say with a pinch of salt. Looking at the two posts above mine you can see that problems quickly start adding up with the upgrades, to summarize, I'll say what I feel each "level" of the outpost should be. This whole summary is based upon my belief that outpost upgrades were meant to be "taken as necessary", not designed for a rush to upgrade as soon as you can afford it. Level 1 (after the first upgrade) should be something very important, but not essential. It's different from the other upgrade levels in that it enables options that weren't there before, or previously existed in an extremely limited fashion. It takes an outpost and makes it a station. Because of this it is something that every alliance will definitely want at each of their major outposts, so it should be made readily available. On the other hand, though, you don't want people always buying both the outpost and the upgrade at the same time, and never seeing a "level 0" outpost again, so it must be justifiably expensive. Mahrins post shows this is somewhat accomplished at this level, though a slight drop in price may also work. Level 2 is something that should be accordingly less important, but still preferable to building whole new outposts unless you need them for other reasons. The cost of upgrading to level 1 is important here, and I feel a balance should be struck so that the combined cost of the level 1 + level 2 upgrades are less cost efficient than building a new outpost, but if you already have a level 1 upgrade it's more cost efficient to go to level 2. This would hopefully strike a nice balance, making sure upgrades remain a somewhat long-term goal. Level 3 should be a whole new shebang. The price right now seems frankly ridiculous, and could do with a nice drop. If I was factoring the price here I would make it som it is more efficient numbers-wise to build a new level 1 outpost, even after considerations for building POSes to support it. What you should be paying for at level 3 is the logistical capability to have everything in one place, and the other benefits of having the "best of the best" as far as outposts are concerned. Anyways, as I said I haven't relay run any hard numbers, but nonetheless I hope my input helps!
Mahrin Skel Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.30 05:11:00 - [15] Something wasn't right about the numbers, I finally figured out what it was: On the Amarr factory outpost, it has 20 regular factory slots, not 15 (plus 10 Bio slots). I suspect that the Factory2 upgrades are bio slots, as well. So the numbers are even worse, not even the rank 1 upgrade is worth it vs. deploying a new Factory outpost. Ys, I realize that you only have to field one Upgrade platform in order to deploy all of the potential improvements of that rank. But in most cases, we'll be looking at the particular merits of upgrading that particular outpost for what it is already specialized for, and the other potential upgrades will just be gravy. --Dave
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.30 05:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Mahrin Skel Something wasn't right about the numbers, I finally figured out what it was: On the Amarr factory outpost, it has 20 regular factory slots, not 15 (plus 10 Bio slots). I suspect that the Factory2 upgrades are bio slots, as well. So the numbers are even worse, not even the rank 1 upgrade is worth it vs. deploying a new Factory outpost. Ys, I realize that you only have to field one Upgrade platform in order to deploy all of the potential improvements of that rank. But in most cases, we'll be looking at the particular merits of upgrading that particular outpost for what it is already specialized for, and the other potential upgrades will just be gravy. --Dave That's more true for some outposts than others. The office expansion is going to be wildly popular for all the outposts(I'm sure you could get residents to pay for the egg and offset the expander cost for an office) on top of the matching upgrade. The Minmatar outpost also goes well with the manufacturing upgrades(since it already has slots that are used, generally for building big things like caps and BSs), which means 3 of the 5 upgrade modules are important enough that they aren't just gravy. Now the Gallente outpost on the other hand will be fairly hard to justify making any upgrades on. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Ehrine Ashbark Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.30 10:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Verite Rendition Now the Gallente outpost on the other hand will be fairly hard to justify making any upgrades on. You clearly didn't see the upgrade that reduces the time to build capital construction components... Fit a level 3 version of that and do the same to an amarr outpost and you can churn out carriers in just over 3 days.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Mahrin Skel I don't like this idea that basic Outpost functionality is going to be vulnerable to someone coming in at 0900 GMT and blowing away factory jobs, refining capability, office slots? I tested to attacked an outpost service yesterday and well, it was far from getting deactivated. It took 180s to lock it with a Vagabond, how long it would take with a BS or dread I don't know. What I do know is that 10 minutes of constant shooting managed to dent one pixel on the services shield... CCP exactly how many HP and what resists do the services have not to mention sig radius? Also it would be nice if the service wasn't a beacon at the docking bay but a part of the station itself to lock. We're sorry, something happened.
William Hamilton Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.30 18:26:00 - [19] ^I'm guessing the services aren't entirely done yet. Hopefully the odness with them will be fixed.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:37:00 - [20] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 30/05/2007 22:37:02 Originally by: Ehrine Ashbark Originally by: Verite Rendition Now the Gallente outpost on the other hand will be fairly hard to justify making any upgrades on. You clearly didn't see the upgrade that reduces the time to build capital construction components... Fit a level 3 version of that and do the same to an amarr outpost and you can churn out carriers in just over 3 days. Or you could save 200bil and use an Amarr outpost, which already has a good manufacturing bonus. You're not going to want to build cap ships in 0.0 anyhow, you need all the low ends from Empire due to the quantities required. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Ehrine Ashbark Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.30 22:58:00 - [21] Try building a Mothership or Titan in empire sometime ;) The top level upgrade for a Gallente outpost will give you a 60% time reduction in the component production time - something the Amarr outpost can't do (only 30% there).

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.05.31 08:54:00 - [22] updated my original post with the new upgrade platform prices. regarding attacking station services, the services have a huge amount of hitpoints and are not designed so that any roaming gang can come along and simply shut down a station without any real planning or logistics. The critical services like cloning take the longest to disable for example.

Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.05.31 10:31:00 - [23] Originally by: CCP Chronotis updated my original post with the new upgrade platform prices. regarding attacking station services, the services have a huge amount of hitpoints and are not designed so that any roaming gang can come along and simply shut down a station without any real planning or logistics. The critical services like cloning take the longest to disable for example. So are we talking hitpoits equivalent of a large pos? I thought the idea to kill services was something for roaming gangs to do, not capital blobs. Maybe you should add a service called "Docking bay", when it is disabled anyone logged in and docked get ejected into space and unable to dock until it is repaired. Would give an interesting twist to outpost sieges for sure. We're sorry, something happened.
Mahrin Skel Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.31 20:55:00 - [24] What's it going to take to repair the destroyed services? Is it an ISK sink, or just lots of Remote Repair? Any word on whether we're going to get defense guns for outposts? That price structure is a lot more sane. I still don't think we'll see a lot of Rank 3 upgrades, but even for those the case could be made. --Dave
Kylegar Caldari The Dark Horses Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 22:13:00 - [25] Just shooting an Idea out, But as an added bonus for upgrading your Outpost, perhaps an upgrade tier can count as a Large Control Tower for Sov (EG: Level 1 upgrade counts as 1 Large Control tower, 2nd level counts as 2 control towers etc)? That way there is added incentive to upgrade your outpost, and an attacker has to put more resources to taking the outpost that has quite a bit of resources poured into it. It would be slightly lame for an outpost with 40-50B ISK in upgrades to fall with a few days of sieging. --- amazing sig, no?
Shadowraven213 Caldari Madison Industrial Co. Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.01 07:32:00 - [26] Edited by: Shadowraven213 on 01/06/2007 07:37:37 just a quick thought if you are willing to spend those ammounts of isk on improvements for the outpost why wouldnt you just build a new outpost with the proper services pre-installed whats so awesome about these improvements or are they just intended for use with the central outpost in an alliance (albeit a super loaded one) where you might need a station with absolutely everything possible in there
Jarden Gallente The Galactic Empire Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.01 11:51:00 - [27] The Description on Minmatar Basic Factory Improvement and Minmatar Basic Laboratory Improvement is interchanged.
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.06.01 16:02:00 - [28] Foundation Upgrade Platform: "The Foundation upgrade platform is the first level of available upgrade platforms for deep-space outposts. It allows for the installation of 1 Tier 1 outpost improvement." Can you build more than one Foundation Platform, or must the next one be a Pedestal Upgrade Platform? Then: Pedestal Upgrade Platform: "The Pedestal upgrade platform is the second level of available upgrade platforms for deep-space outposts. It allows for the installation of 1 Tier 1 improvement and 1 Tier 2 improvement." Is that for a combined total (including the Foundation) of 2 Tier 1 and 1 Tier 2 improvement? Or does it only effectively add a single tier 2 improvement slot over what was already there? Thanks Largo
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.06.01 23:13:00 - [29] Edited by: Largo leGrande on 01/06/2007 23:19:02 In case anyone is interested, the rough materials cost (minerals and trade goods to go into egg): Foundation: 413mil Pedestal: 825mil Monument: 1.65bil
Bonnie Jose Gallente STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.04 11:27:00 - [30] Hi i would like to test out these improvements Outposts but the biggest hurdle in test them is the Skill requirements. Anchoring V Outpost Construction V thats a total of 84 days of learning on the test server. Can we all get the skilld bumped for testing. ___________________________________________________ I wanna rock every blokes socks off. by socks i mean the Ship.

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