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Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:54:00 - [1] So someone care to tell me why this is suddenly a problem when it wasn't a problem when the cloaks first came out or even the couple months after they came out?
Vitrael Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:56:00 - [2] Carebear 0.0 pilots are afraid of having people in local they can't find on the scanner, particularly AFK ones who remain there for hours. It's the new fad for them to whine about it. ----------
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:57:00 - [3] The problem people have with cloaks as far as I can see is their current use by farmers and ninja ratters or just warping away and cloaking instantly, making them completely uncatchable, without having to worry about anything. Also the people who sit cloaked afk in a system 23/7 meaning people don't know if they could rat there because at any moment that guy could come back and kill them. --- ---
Professor Smartypants The Cause	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:59:00 - [4] someone with multiple accounts is stirring up all the trouble. It's not like they are a problem. Even starship pilots need to go to the loo every now and then , cloaking is better then logging off as you can't be probed after someone shoots your wrecks or some such thing. Cloaking is fine. It nerfs your lock time. If you think someone is near in a cloak, drop a bomb from a stealth bomber, coming soon
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:00:00 - [5] See, none of that answers my question. Anyone could be doing that a long time ago. Why is it only a problem now when nothing has really changed in regards to cloaking?
Professor Smartypants The Cause	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:00:00 - [6] Originally by: Asestorian ...Also the people who sit cloaked afk in a system 23/7 meaning people don't know if they could rat there because at any moment that guy could come back and kill them. Risk vs reward. go ratting in a pvp setup.
Taran Summers The Merovingians	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:02:00 - [7] Remove cloaked ships from local would end the whining except for the truly paranoid.
Kaeana	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:04:00 - [8] Edited by: Kaeana on 25/05/2007 16:03:27 stupid alt.
Probeltis	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:05:00 - [9] Big deal. It's part of the game. All I see anymore are threads about how everyone wants everything nurfed that gives anyone but them an advangate. If there wasn't risk involved it would be WOW not EVE. I like the risk, its fun to hunt something you can't see, and even more rewarding when you do get the little cloaking bugger. Best way to fight a cloak is to get one.
Kaeana	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:05:00 - [10] Edited by: Kaeana on 25/05/2007 16:04:15 Originally by: Kaeana Edited by: Kaeana on 25/05/2007 16:03:27 stupid alt. oh ffs.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:06:00 - [11] Edited by: Ralara on 25/05/2007 16:06:55 Originally by: Kaeana Edited by: Kaeana on 25/05/2007 16:04:15 Originally by: Kaeana Edited by: Kaeana on 25/05/2007 16:03:27 stupid alt. oh ffs. GOD DAMMIT! STUPID ALT! Oh there's always the next nerf. Since i've been here, first it was Nerf missiles, then nerf warp core stabalisers, then nerf nanos, then nerf nos, now it's nerf cloak. Nerf nerf nerf. Really, it bugs the heck out of me. Cloaks weren't a "problem" last year yet they've remained the same ever since. But suddenly they are a problem. The only reason I can think of is that nano ships were nerfed and now they have nothing to moan about. After a few nerf posts, people jump on the bandwagon and people in empire or new players etc who have never BEEN in 0.0 or low sec suddenly are crying out for it to be nerfed even though it has absolutely no effect on them or how they play. It's annoying. Next will be NOS for sure, people are already whining about that. After that, I dunno, probably drones and how the Dominix is too powerful. After that, geese, um... probably erm, interceptors or something. Oh and Titans and motherships! They're on their list. Probably then carriers. It's really annoying me. I mean seriously, if someone is afk cloaked then go about your business. You shouldn't be "solo" in 0.0 or low sec anyway, the idea is to work in numbers. I've been in 0.0 corps where an afk cloaker stopped 10 of them from a mining op. Quite silly. There is no "zero risk" for crying out loud. Oh well, I'm sure the whingers will only be happy once everyone is flying around in Ibis and Velators... Real men CORPSE-TANK.
Faol'gus T Miners	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:08:00 - [12] Edited by: Faol''gus on 25/05/2007 16:10:00 I think that there is only anger against those that abuse the cloak, sitting afk cloaked. One aspect of the game is that if you are afk for any length of time you should get popped. If a miner/ratter isn't watching local they should get popped. I think most people feel that those who cloak afk should get popped too. Edit: Although I also feel that cloaks should not be usable on miners or anything battlecruiser size or up.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Faol'gus I think that there is only anger against those that abuse the cloak, sitting afk cloaked. One aspect of the game is that if you are afk for any length of time you should get popped. If a miner/ratter isn't watching local they should get popped. I think most people feel that those who cloak afk should get popped too. I'm of the feeling that if you're afk for more than 15 mins the game auto logs you out. It'd maybe cut out a bit of lag. No point being logged in if you aren't there. Should cut down on the freighter whingers who get ganked whilst AFK in empire as well. Real men CORPSE-TANK.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:13:00 - [14] Sigh More people who only wanna see one side of the coin. AFK cloakers can completely disrupt the economy of an enitire system. This cannot be debated. When attempting to fight against RA, they had an alt cloaked in system all day for 4 weeks straight. The RA home base was 5 jumps away. Anytime any mining or ratting started up, a fleet could be on its way in minutes. The problem was, the guy was AFK alot, yet still was able to intimidate the system. Now I know that there are many who think this is not a problem, but please consider for a moment. What other type of solo ship can completely own a star system? I'd say a Titan. Would you get a mining op going in a system with a Titan in it? The reason there are so many threads about Cloaking is that there is no way to counter Cloaking right now. Therefore several niche roles using cloaks have made a lot of people upset. It seems these problems are: 1> AFK Cloakers 23/7 2> NPC'rs cloaking to avoid Piewrats. 3> Captial ships cloaking Good luck finding an answer to these 'problems' that don't completely screw over another group.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Princess Jodi Sigh More people who only wanna see one side of the coin. AFK cloakers can completely disrupt the economy of an enitire system. This cannot be debated. When attempting to fight against RA, they had an alt cloaked in system all day for 4 weeks straight. The RA home base was 5 jumps away. Anytime any mining or ratting started up, a fleet could be on its way in minutes. The problem was, the guy was AFK alot, yet still was able to intimidate the system. Now I know that there are many who think this is not a problem, but please consider for a moment. What other type of solo ship can completely own a star system? I'd say a Titan. Would you get a mining op going in a system with a Titan in it? The reason there are so many threads about Cloaking is that there is no way to counter Cloaking right now. Therefore several niche roles using cloaks have made a lot of people upset. It seems these problems are: 1> AFK Cloakers 23/7 2> NPC'rs cloaking to avoid Piewrats. 3> Captial ships cloaking Good luck finding an answer to these 'problems' that don't completely screw over another group. Solution: log people out after 15 mins or 30 mins or [insert number here] minutes of being AFK. Doesnt nerf cloaks, nerfs AFKers. Real men CORPSE-TANK.
Malena Panic Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:16:00 - [16] Cloaks are massively cheaper than they used to be, so a lot more of them are in play. separately, the nano-craze was largely nerfed, leaving cloaks as the next best safe play alternative. Finally, as the community matures more and more people are qualified to use them. So we're seeing a lot more cloaks in use, and the drawbacks to gameplay are becoming more apparant. I still think the solution is to make cloaks (all of them, even covops ones) into repeating modules that must be overheated to be used. This requires active pilot management of the ship and module at all times. It won't stop the problem of CTRL-Q loggers, but that's a completely separate issue - a CTRL-Q magic bullet won't solve the cloak problem either.
Ethaet	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:18:00 - [17] Its because a griefer got annoyed he couldn't find anyone to shoot for 5 whole minutes.
William Alex Caldari Viscosity Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:37:00 - [18] Contrary to popular belief making posts like that doesn't forward your case. The reason nanos were nerfed was because there was no real counter, and it actually did involve a level of imbalance. Cloaking while afk so you can spy on a system 23/7 in your pilgrim while waiting for someone to do something, in theory sounds cool but until there is a counter that DOESNÆT trivialize cloaking on the whole there is admittedly a level of imbalance that exists. I see the imbalance in the afk side rather than the cloaking side personally but thatÆs my opinion. Seriously think on it rather than posting inane comments.
Salen Fa'rethi	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Ethaet Its because a griefer got annoyed he couldn't find anyone to shoot for 5 whole minutes. You. Out of the gene pool.
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Princess Jodi Sigh More people who only wanna see one side of the coin. AFK cloakers can completely disrupt the economy of an enitire system. This cannot be debated. When attempting to fight against RA, they had an alt cloaked in system all day for 4 weeks straight. The RA home base was 5 jumps away. Anytime any mining or ratting started up, a fleet could be on its way in minutes. The problem was, the guy was AFK alot, yet still was able to intimidate the system. Now I know that there are many who think this is not a problem, but please consider for a moment. What other type of solo ship can completely own a star system? I'd say a Titan. Would you get a mining op going in a system with a Titan in it? The reason there are so many threads about Cloaking is that there is no way to counter Cloaking right now. Therefore several niche roles using cloaks have made a lot of people upset. It seems these problems are: 1> AFK Cloakers 23/7 2> NPC'rs cloaking to avoid Piewrats. 3> Captial ships cloaking Good luck finding an answer to these 'problems' that don't completely screw over another group. The way to counter this is simply to have a scout of your own watching the approach(es). However I don't see why a 1h-scan time probe for cloakers would be a problem. Just the fact they exist would make people change their behaviour.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.25 16:53:00 - [21] Edited by: Banana Torres on 25/05/2007 16:52:20 Originally by: Princess Jodi AFK cloakers can completely disrupt the economy of an enitire system. This cannot be debated. When attempting to fight against RA, they had an alt cloaked in system all day for 4 weeks straight. The RA home base was 5 jumps away. Anytime any mining or ratting started up, a fleet could be on its way in minutes. The problem was, the guy was AFK alot, yet still was able to intimidate the system. Sorry, that is not logical. An AFK player could not alert his home base in munutes that an op had started.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:00:00 - [22] Because every single ship using them these days. It has become an issue since it has spun out of control.
SeerinDarkness Minmatar Equinox Eternal Enterprises	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:04:00 - [23] the desire of change here is for ,in paticular!, to do something about people lurkign afk cloaked scouting a enemy system 23/7 with out ANY possable chance of doing unto them what they are there for to do unto you! ie there is no real risk associated with a afk scout in place who is data mineing local for everything it can provide. any of my suggetions on this issue have been specificly geard twords this end. i would rather not have any kind of scanner or probe to deal with the issue as this really nerfs the cloak which wasent my personal aim rather to install some kind of AT keyboard check thru a overload and burnout of cloak device timer which requires periodical turing off the cloak and turning it back on once it has recycled...n people being afk for Hours of no risk would be somehat less as people who were gone to long that way would ahve their cloaks become damaged and inoperable making them findable and killable which is what this desire is all about.
JeanClaude DuSoir The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Malena Panic Cloaks are massively cheaper than they used to be, so a lot more of them are in play. The only cloaks that are cheaper are the Covert Ops Cloaks. Only two classes of ships can use those particular devices. Although it may correlate with the issue coming up recently, this is not an acceptable causation. Correlation != Causation. ----
JourneymanDave devastation mining inc Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Malena Panic Cloaks are massively cheaper than they used to be, so a lot more of them are in play. separately, the nano-craze was largely nerfed, leaving cloaks as the next best safe play alternative. Finally, as the community matures more and more people are qualified to use them. So we're seeing a lot more cloaks in use, and the drawbacks to gameplay are becoming more apparant. I still think the solution is to make cloaks (all of them, even covops ones) into repeating modules that must be overheated to be used. This requires active pilot management of the ship and module at all times. It won't stop the problem of CTRL-Q loggers, but that's a completely separate issue - a CTRL-Q magic bullet won't solve the cloak problem either. Thank you for the first coherent post. Well stated.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:09:00 - [26] ever ship used them before... ratters haulers, the real complaint is that recons are now useful because the covertops cloak is not 100m Recruiting Terrorists
Tate Aoko Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:11:00 - [27] Its the new/next excuse for people crap at PVP.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:11:00 - [28] while we are at it we should nerf ammo cause 100% of ships use it!
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:14:00 - [29] Still don't see how cloaked ships are a major threat, other than intel. Even if you nerf cloaking, there are ways to do this job almost as effectively using stuff like pods, shuttles and other small ships that are fast and hard to lock. I've worked out some fantastic setups for this in the past. They are absurdly difficult to probe down and kill if there is a pilot manning it, and even some cases if AFK you will have trouble with the good setups. Since it's an alt anyways in most cases, popping it costs them nothing and it can be back, or replaced, within minutes. Only two ships per race can warp cloaked, one is a frigate that is almost always unarmed the other is a recon cruiser that is pretty gimped in firepower. Neither are real threats on their own without support. All other ships have to both sacrifice a high slot, which is about 15% of their firepower. They also have that ungodly recalibration time, which means they aren't going to catch anything or anybody that doesn't want to be caught. Again, not a major threat on it's own.
Salen Fa'rethi	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:18:00 - [30] Edited by: Salen Fa''rethi on 25/05/2007 17:20:20 Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Because every single ship using them these days. It has become an issue since it has spun out of control. Every single ship, eh? Just because I'm bored I looked up your 10 most recent kills for each ship class on the Rise killboard. Roughly 90 kills in total I viewed. Out of those (excepting recons and cov ops), a total of 4 mails listed a cloak destroyed. They were a sigil and an absolution with T1 cloaks, and a rifter + absolution with T2 cloaks. That leaves 80+ killmails listing no cloaks destroyed. So, what are you going to do with all those cloaking devices you've been lucky enough to loot? Although the afk cloak whoring certainly is nauseating both in the "omg tactics" and "omg farmer" sense, let's please try not to exaggerate too much, hmm?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:41:00 - [31] The "Nefr teh c104k5z0rz!" screaming is just because more and more ppl have gotten smart and can avoid random gankage. The ones screaming for nerfs just want to gank some afk ppl and feel mighty. They don't realise that denying instant gratification (or boring the **** out of them)from your opponents is a critical part of pvp. For instant gratification I would rather suggest something designed for it, like wow, diablo or prn. Besides, cloaking big ships is a standard in scifi. "A ship that small could not have a cloaking device." Cloaking bigger ships to prevent scouts from getting excact numbers and troop positions is not only smart, but it improves the game experience for us all. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:47:00 - [32] its because isk farmers are using them too much. That and perm local scouts. Merc Blog
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:49:00 - [33] There seems to be two motivations for nerfing cloaks. The first is similar to the desire to war dec NPC corporations. They want the opportunity to readily attack/defeat other players, without exception. Anything that comes between them and a killmail is simply unacceptable. The second are players who want to minimize their risk while maximzing profit. Cloaks are an impediment to that. They'll cite numerous rationales and excuses, but ultimately it boils down to not wanting to have to fly with an escort during mining/ratting operations, when that escort could instead be ratting/mining and thusly increasing their iskie collection rate. Why it's suddenly become all the rage to complain about this now? Who knows? My guess would be that with EVE's increased playerbase, there's more objection to the game's disimilarities to other MMOs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Derran See, none of that answers my question. Anyone could be doing that a long time ago. Why is it only a problem now when nothing has really changed in regards to cloaking? They have always been a problem, it just hasnt always been so obvious. You can ask the same question of most things in the game. Why now for Titans? Did something about titans change? Nope, its just more easy to see now. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:50:00 - [35] The only sensible thing that has been suggested in all these threads was flagging afk people in local. No fuel, no heat, no stupid timers - just an indicator for afking. Elegance in simplicity.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.25 17:51:00 - [36] omg nerf cloaking! i cant see my awesome ship with it activated
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:08:00 - [37] Put your own alt in a popular ratting system around the clock when you're not on, that'll send the macroratters there into cloaking and making no profit. Not the solution but a bandaid.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:13:00 - [38] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 25/05/2007 18:12:19 Originally by: Ogul The only sensible thing that has been suggested in all these threads was flagging afk people in local. No fuel, no heat, no stupid timers - [/b]just an indicator for afking.[/b] Elegance in simplicity. THIS.....I could live with. THIS...is somewhat sensible. No keystroke input for 30 minutes...afk flag. The rest of this thread is further tail-chasing. Go find another bandwagon to jump on . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Malena Panic Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:25:00 - [39] Originally by: JeanClaude DuSoir The only cloaks that are cheaper are the Covert Ops Cloaks. Improved cloaks are down to >10M from a peak of 30M+, and Protos have entering the 'free module' range of >2M.
Katana Sengoku Minmatar The Knights Templar Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 18:36:00 - [40] I agree... a lot of people only see one side of this debate. They think its about carebears whining, but in reality its about the pure combat and integrity of this game. It wasn't a problem before, because there were other trends being done by muppets. Face it... many pvpers want to intimidate and dominate as much as possible. They look for ways 'outside the box' to make their own life easier, make their kills lazier, while disrupting their enemies more and more. Sure, its part of the game, but these lame tactics take away from the pure aspect of the game. The pure pvp, which makes this game so much better than anything out there. Cloaks were originally used in scouting, many loved them for that purpose, but after a while, they realized the potential to disrupt a system... and then the potential to use cloaks for combat, other than just recon. Cloaking is a problem... its the new trend, yet again, because its one of the greatest tactics that has the biggest advantage. Its an unbalance... and that is what griefers and gankers look for... some tactic they can manipulate and exploit time after time that can not be equally countered in relation to risk, reward, and gang size. I'm all for combat, but until I see tactics that the game intends for us to use, not to exploit, then nerfs will always come. Finally... combat, distruption, ownage... whatever... should not be based on countering someones afk cloaker by your own afk cloaker. That's just stupid. That's a BAD direction for this game if you are for that scenario.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:00:00 - [41] Edited by: SiJira on 25/05/2007 18:59:19 Originally by: Katana Sengoku I agree... a lot of people only see one side of this debate. They think its about carebears whining, but in reality its about the pure combat and integrity of this game. It wasn't a problem before, because there were other trends being done by muppets. Face it... many pvpers want to intimidate and dominate as much as possible. They look for ways 'outside the box' to make their own life easier, make their kills lazier, while disrupting their enemies more and more. Sure, its part of the game, but these lame tactics take away from the pure aspect of the game. The pure pvp, which makes this game so much better than anything out there. Cloaks were originally used in scouting, many loved them for that purpose, but after a while, they realized the potential to disrupt a system... and then the potential to use cloaks for combat, other than just recon. Cloaking is a problem... its the new trend, yet again, because its one of the greatest tactics that has the biggest advantage. Its an unbalance... and that is what griefers and gankers look for... some tactic they can manipulate and exploit time after time that can not be equally countered in relation to risk, reward, and gang size. I'm all for combat, but until I see tactics that the game intends for us to use, not to exploit, then nerfs will always come. Finally... combat, distruption, ownage... whatever... should not be based on countering someones afk cloaker by your own afk cloaker. That's just stupid. That's a BAD direction for this game if you are for that scenario. you do realize that people can simply log off and use logon traps instead of using cloakers if cloak gets nerfed right ? exploiters will find ways about any nerf legit players should just roll over and take it to satisfy the guys who wont work to trick the cloakers in their system ? having your own afk cloaker isnt the only way - its actually the worst way to defend against another afk cloaker i will defend my right to use cloaks until the day i cancel my subscription - i will not tolerate any nerfs just because some people choose a similar gamestyle as mine to dominate others are too lazy and ignorant to try to counter it ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:39:00 - [42] You have to have someone in system to know when to spring the trap Sijira. log-on traps require many people working in tandem and hold in place lots of resources[since you cant have one person check an entire system at a time and then attack themselves] If log-on traps were as strong as cloaks, they would be used all the time for low quality targets. They arent, there is a reason for that. Its because the time and effort required to get one to work makes it unreasonable to do for anything that isnt very valuable. Cloaks allow pilots to be able to patrol an entire system[instead of a single point in the system] for targets of any value without any risk. And to be able to do so at their leisure, without tieing up any resources. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:44:00 - [43] Originally by: Goumindong You have to have someone in system to know when to spring the trap Sijira. log-on traps require many people working in tandem and hold in place lots of resources[since you cant have one person check an entire system at a time and then attack themselves] If log-on traps were as strong as cloaks, they would be used all the time for low quality targets. They arent, there is a reason for that. Its because the time and effort required to get one to work makes it unreasonable to do for anything that isnt very valuable. wrong all i need to do is log on to check whats going on in the system and then i can log off again and i didnt waste tons of isk sp or even nerf my ship to do so Quote: Cloaks allow pilots to be able to patrol an entire system[instead of a single point in the system] for targets of any value without any risk. And to be able to do so at their leisure, without tieing up any resources. oh no not at all a persons entire time spent in a system isnt a resource at all ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Malena Panic Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:46:00 - [44] Originally by: SiJira you do realize that people can simply log off and use logon traps instead of using cloakers if cloak gets nerfed right ? That's a reason to address logon traps, not a reason NOT to address afk/permacloaking.
Katana Sengoku Minmatar The Knights Templar Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.25 19:48:00 - [45] Originally by: SiJira you do realize that people can simply log off and use logon traps instead of using cloakers if cloak gets nerfed right ? exploiters will find ways about any nerf legit players should just roll over and take it to satisfy the guys who wont work to trick the cloakers in their system ? having your own afk cloaker isnt the only way - its actually the worst way to defend against another afk cloaker i will defend my right to use cloaks until the day i cancel my subscription - i will not tolerate any nerfs just because some people choose a similar gamestyle as mine to dominate others are too lazy and ignorant to try to counter it Afaik, logon traps are exploits... petionable... whether or not thats true, its still another lame expolited tactic that in no way keeps this game and its pvp pure. I agree there will always be new exploits and new nerfs. Where would we be if nothing ever changed? Get real. I was also speaking of countering an afk cloaker in your system, by afk cloaking in the cloaker's home system. Oh, and if you don't tolerate nerfs, you should of already left. Which means... can I have your stuff?

Kaemonn Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.25 20:06:00 - [46] Please use one of the existing threads to discuss this. forum rules \| [email protected]\| Eve-CCG


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