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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:16:00 -
[1]
Though I consider myself an expert in all things PC, I must confess in the field of audio I'm sadly anything but. Since having no end of frustration with my existing soundcard and/or speakers, I'm giving serious thought to upgrading. I currently have a 4.1 "Cambridge Soundworks" speaker system connected to an Audigy 2 ZS, and since I took the card to a friend's house to help him test his speaker setup (which worked perfectly) my sound is horribly messed up.
I no longer get any sound from my rear speakers, with rear sound instead coming out of the front speakers! My wiring hasn't changed and I've tried every combination of driver uninstalling/reinstalling with no success. Creative have no interest in helping me as I'm out of warranty, so I'm faced with the option of living with it or buying anew. Sadly though, despite my desire to get away from the stranglehold creative have on PC audio, I find it's not so easy to get away...this is where I need advice as I don't really understand how it all works.
From what I can tell, Creative cards are the only ones that support EAX 3-5 and OpenAL (which is the only supported standard by Vista...I still use XP but am thinking of future-proofing). I'm looking at either of two speaker sets and either of two sound cards as follows:
Auzentech X-Meridian
Creative X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Pro
And speakers:
Creative GigaWorks G500
Logitech Z-5500
From the myriad reviews and forum articles, it seems the Creative card still comes out top in terms of gaming, but is left behind by the Auzentech in terms of music quality. Also, while both sets of speakers are THX certified, the Logitech set has had better reviews, has h/w decoding for Dolby Digital Live and DTS and more power output. What I can't make heads or tails of is all the surrounding jargon. EAX 2, 3, 4, 5, OpenAL, Dolby Digital Live, DTS Connect, SP/DIF, etc. Do any of you have experiences with any of the above hardware? What should I be looking for for current and future needs? My main focus is really gaming, with music playback a close 2nd, followed lastly by *everything else*. Any help greatly appreciated.
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My T2 Shop |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.05.30 05:53:00 -
[2]
I imagine you already understand this, but one thing to keep in mind is Vista doesn't support OpenAL (a CreativeLabs-owned positional 3d sound standard that supports decent occlusion and height-calculations, I believe) so much as it allows for it. I draw the distinction because Vista doesn't support DirectX sound in hardware at all; it's been removed totally from kernal access rights. This is unlikely to change, ever. Whereas, OpenAL games (like Unreal Tourn) continue to be 'allowed' to run in hardware on Vista for the time being. So, any game that currently uses any Dx sound (most all) will only run in software in Vista. No hardware buffers, no hw EAX (increasing levels of extended echo/chorus/reflection/refraction/occlusion/doppler/height/positional audio). That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean increased workload for the cpu and the potential for more conflicts between system resources.
As for your channel issues, the official CL forums had a few threads on those sorts of issues the last I checked. I'd suggest you spend some time there, you'll likely find out what went wrong (my pardon if you've already checked there). If that still doesn't work, try the kx-audio open source drivers. You WILL lose EAX functionality, but they are VERY powerful drivers, capable of far more than CL's drivers ever bothered to try out, particularly for channel-control and the like. I ran them for quite a while, and was happy with them till I upgraded to an x-fi (which are unsupported).
As for the rest of the acronyms, just google them... you'll get a far better explanation than I can give you.
If you're favorite games rotate around EAX 3 4 or 5, I'd stay with WinXP and buy a Fat1 card.
XP is still better than Vista, thought that won't be true once games for dx10 really start rolling out. Personally, I give that 6-9 months. I'm sure some new audio stuff will happen in Vista, too (maybe openal becomes the new standard), but with audio capabilities also being included on future video cards, it's all a bit murky right now. I'm hoping for a DX10.11 that has HW EAX support, but that's because I bought an x-fi;) I don't hold out any real hope.
Heck, the x-fi's are great cards, just really expensive if you're upgrading OS's soon.
p.s., in case you didn't know, Eve uses a software EAX engine... just thought I'd mention that... software engines can rock, or suck like eve's does.
 Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/02/2007 23:20:58
But come on, at least give the devs a chance to fire t20. 
Hmm, still waiting. |
Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 02:36:00 -
[3]
I am looking around at sound stuff atm too..
was looking at the X-Fi Xtreme Gamer and the logitech Z-5500's because of all the great reviews.. then I got thinking..
Reviews for the Z-680 started ~late oct '02...reviews for the Z-5500's started ~late nov '04, so about 2 years between..(assuming these dates are-somewhat-accurate..so now its ~Q2 '07 and what I don't want to happen is spend a good chunk of money on the 5500's and something new and uber is released within a few months. so for now I think I'm gonna buy a new cheap $15 headset (will be my third, I'm really rough with them and the cord ends up going bad and I lose sound in left ear) and wait until Sept. and see what happens, giving not too much changes between releases of sound stuff but meh 
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.05.31 04:25:00 -
[4]
Personally, I don't really see anything uber coming up. THX cert is a marketing ploy more than a sound-spec, and most new features are merely incremental and are used to justify an even higher price than the unit it makes 'obsolete'. New material technologies aren't in the near-future pipe with high-end audiophile stuff, so I don't see any amazing features coming to computers anytime soon.
Frankly, 500-600 $ for a 5.1 computer speaker set? Are they crazy? Have you seen the distortion ratings on even the THX cert sets? NO audiophile would infect his home-setup with that level of noise, unless he just wanted a speaker set for his garage AND had bought it from a garage sale, to boot 
My advise, go listen to the units in question, and make up your own mind. Don't let high-price and marketing ploys make your mind up for you. Heh, otherwise, we'd all be listening to BOSE speakers (sorry to any Bose fan out there).
For my computer, I bought a x-530 set. Cheap, sounds 'decent', does what I want. Would I use it to listen to music or enjoy a movie? No, that's what my Sennheiser's are for. Eve sounds good, and so does the audio for Morrowind. I'm happy and I didn't spend a lot of coin.
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Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 05:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vari on 31/05/2007 05:52:13
Agreed. Logitech speakers used to be cheaper (sub 150) but now 350+ for a 5.1 setup??? You could get active monitors for that kind of money. True you wouldn't be getting a subwoofer, but meh.
The fact is, try out a decent pair of Sennheisers, and you'll want something better than Logitechs.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.05.31 05:59:00 -
[6]
Headphones and a real seperates stereo with a single 3.5mm stereo coming from a 10yr old SB16 to twin rca on the back of the stereo. Best of both worlds, and it'll cost you less than ú10 for the cable and a set of headphones. Odds are unless you're a dog, you won't notice any appreciable sound difference, and the headphones will give you all the positional audio you need in gaming.
OK it's not what you asked exactly...
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.05.31 06:15:00 -
[7]
My last room mate had a literally 35k $ stereo.. it absolutely amazed me when you put in a cd. However, my Senn's cost me about 300$ and have 90% of the quality. Frankly, given the state of headphone positional audio algorithms for games/movies, a great pair of headphones certainly beat a home-system worth 5k or less, in my experience.
Has anyone tried the in-ear Shure headphones? I haven't as my ear canals don't like intrusions of any sort, but I'd like some opinions. Shure certainly has a great listener rep from their turntable stuff.
Given the signal-noise ratio of the top end soundcards, the increasing availability of DVD-audio and the upsampling ability of CL's new cards (crystallizer), combined with the nice, flat frequency response of said soundcards, PC speakers are the limiting factor, as far as I can tell.
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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2007.05.31 13:18:00 -
[8]
Well after a short trawl through Creative's forums I found someone else having the same problem as me. And though I'm not at home to try the fix, I do know I have a logitech quickcam pro which one of the other users has mentioned is likely the reason for this fault. Even if it does fix it though...I've just 30 minutes ago placed an order with Amazon for the Logitech Z-5500s.  I'm debating whether or not to try and cancel the order. I also shortly after posting the above, found this on Auzentech's website.
From the sounds of it, and what I can tell, the Prelude appears to be the best PC sound card ever. With the best of both worlds, EAX and Creative's other technologies for 3D positional audio and the aural quality of Auzentech's other cards. Overclockers give the 6th June as date for this card to be available, so I'm going to hold out for a time.
I've tred a friend's pair of those Shure in-ear headphones. I think it'd take me a short time to getused to how they sit in the ear, but despite my being very much not an audiophile, I must say the sound quality was amazing. The clarity of the music I tried (Trance and Classical  The best measures!) was breathtaking, and it didn't care what volume you put them at.
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My T2 Shop |
KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2007.05.31 16:25:00 -
[9]
I just got home, unplugged my logitech webcam and after a reboot, my sound is working perfectly again.  I am really surprised a company like logitech would make a product which had such a side effect. Saying that, I do still fancy those Z-5500 speakers and that Prelude soundcard. But since I now have 3D sound again I've cancelled the order for the moment. Will prob look into it again soon though. Many thanks for the tips and useful information, particularly Mr. Friendly. Very much appreciated. 
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My T2 Shop |
Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.31 20:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vari
Edited by: Vari on 31/05/2007 05:55:13
Agreed. Logitech speakers used to be cheaper (sub 150) but now 350+ for a 5.1 setup??? You could get active monitors for that kind of money.
The fact is, try out a decent pair of Sennheisers, and you'll want something better than Logitechs.
with regards to the monitors, what more do you need to hook them up to a PC?
thinking about the headsets though (I wont have to move to my basement!)
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Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 21:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Blind Man
with regards to the monitors, what more do you need to hook them up to a PC?
You'll probably need a 1/4" miniplug (coming out of your soundcard) to RCA plugs converter. Then it's just individual cables going to the speakers.
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Mhaerdirne Solveig
Combustion Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.31 21:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Odds are unless you're a dog, you won't notice any appreciable sound difference
and if you are, it doesn't matter because all you'll post about it on the boards is "woof"
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 00:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Blind Man on 01/06/2007 00:18:22
Originally by: Vari
You'll probably need a 1/4" miniplug (coming out of your soundcard) to RCA plugs converter. Then it's just individual cables going to the speakers.
cool.
For mainly gaming and music as a close second like the OP, do you think it would be worth it to get something like these, over the Z-5500's considering the Z-5500's are about $340-350cdn here.. So I'm guessing a pair of those would be ~$600cdn here, probably more (based off the prices on that site) I'll probably have to do some looking around at local places (shipping to Canada =  )
basically is the sound quality just that much better than the z-5500's or a set like it to justify spending a few 100 more bucks 
oh yeah I should add I've been using a cheap $15 headset for almost 2 years now  and am a complete noob when it comes to audio (if that wasn't apparent already haha)
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Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.01 00:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Blind Man
basically is the sound quality just that much better than the z-5500's or a set like it to justify spending a few 100 more bucks
I accidentally linked the wrong price bracket, here's the sub-300 /pair. The difference is much greater between the KRK RP5(300usd) and the Logitech z-5500(???usd) than the KRK RP5 vs RP8(~500usd).
Is a hundred, maybe a hundred and a half USD worth the price over Logitechs? I think so. But any more and I think there isn't that much of a difference from monitor to monitor to be worth spending hundreds more.
If you're the type that collects well-mastered music and loves to close your eyes and just listen to it, go for it. I suggest you borrow high end Sennheisers hooked up to a good source/amp and asking yourself if you wouldn't mind spending more for better sound. But if you happen to be one of the people who say I hear no difference between iPod earbuds and Sennheisers, then you're better off saving your money.
Of course Logitechs are great for bass-heads. Just monitors alone cannot compare, though they do perform admirably on the low end despite their size.
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 00:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Blind Man on 01/06/2007 00:40:21
well the price definitely looks right on the RP5's - the 5500's are ~$250usd online
I do like the bass up high but and my music collection is pitiful(compared to some I've seen at least) and come to think of it I don't have that many bass-heavy songs
however coming from crappy headphones I doubt I'll find a lack of bass at all  can always invest in a sub later if for some absurd reason I feel the need for it
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari
EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:01:00 -
[16]
Quote:
I just got home, unplugged my logitech webcam and after a reboot, my sound is working perfectly again.
I had a similar problem a few years ago with a very old logitech webcam with a built in microphone. It installs it's own drivers for sound, and this caused merry hell with my existing soundcards (one for the 5.1, the other onboard for my headphones).
Anyone who remembers me coming on vent and broadcasting the loudest static possible now knows why!
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 02:20:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Blind Man on 01/06/2007 02:19:52
btw, just ordered the RP5's - hunted for awhile and found a nice place closeby, $175.00CDN each with free shipping, and I'll get an X-Fi (xtreme gamer, 95.00cdn) to go along with them and the adapter - should do me good for a very long time, thx for the help and my audio problem is solved ♥
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Alias11
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.01 07:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Blind Man
I am looking around at sound stuff atm too..
was looking at the X-Fi Xtreme Gamer and the logitech Z-5500's because of all the great reviews.. then I got thinking..
Reviews for the Z-680 started ~late oct '02...reviews for the Z-5500's started ~late nov '04, so about 2 years between..(assuming these dates are-somewhat-accurate..so now its ~Q2 '07 and what I don't want to happen is spend a good chunk of money on the 5500's and something new and uber is released within a few months. so for now I think I'm gonna buy a new cheap $15 headset (will be my third, I'm really rough with them and the cord ends up going bad and I lose sound in left ear) and wait until Sept. and see what happens, giving not too much changes between releases of sound stuff but meh
The differences between the z-680 and the 5500 are minimal at best. The Sats are identical and the sub is a little larger on the 5500. Unless you're an OCD Audiophile there's no real reason to get the 5500 over the 680s, except for the fact that the 680s are discont.
Personally, If I had the money to spare, I'd get the Z-5450 (~250 USD online) because wireless = superior. And the z-5450 is the thing you new and uber thing you were worried about
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:17:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Mr Friendly on 01/06/2007 10:17:55
@ KingsGambit... I'm very glad you were able to solve the problem; software conflicts are so noobish, the driver Dev's should get podded, methinks...
there's also a MS Win command to 'unhide' the installed but unused drivers that Windoze keeps even when the hardware had been uninstalled... I can't recall the command to display those registry entries from memory, but whenever I have a 'mysterious' problem, I tend to show then delete those entries from the system. I once found *six* instances of CL drivers simply from 8 months of 'playing around' with various drivers. Once I nuked those entries, I stopped crashing.
To anyone wanting to connect their CL card to monitors, keep this in mind: if you use the digital out on the CL card, keep in mind it does NOT conform to the digital output specs. Their output is designed for their own 5.1 speakers sets. In fact, the output overvolted by something silly like 250%, iirc.... 1.5v vs 0.5v; it may not seem significant, but it can potentially kill the input stage on the monitor/receiver/amp. You're better off using the usual L/R, center, rear and sub analog outputs from the card, unless you are connecting the digital out to a 5.1/7.1 system especially designed for CL cards. That, and Creative uses a proprietary digital out cable that sells for 50$ or so ;(. Course, you can easily make a cable for 10$ , but it IS overvolted.
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:34:00 -
[20]
On wireless sets: I'm not convinced the full fidelity can be transmitted using the current frequencies licensed by the various regulating agencies. I'd definately want to listen to these instore next to the set that uses wires. I don't know this personally either way on new stuff (I bought a pair of 900 mhz headphones and was not impressed, but that was obviously a while back), but I would not buy these unlistened. I have as few wires as possible on my computer, but high-Q audio does take a chunk of bandwidth, plus the inherent noise levels from the medium and whatever local competitors on the same frequency-spread make me 'skeptical'. I could be totally, wrong, tho...
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Xiu Ju
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Posted - 2007.06.01 17:28:00 -
[21]
I've been debating heavily on the Sennheiser HD555's with some x-fi SC.
Newegg sells the hd555s for 99USD after IR and MIR but the best i can find in canada is 180CAD >.< so im going to need to find another online retailer.
Anyone had experience with these headphones or recommend something in a similar price range?
IMMA BACK BEOTCHES |
Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.01 17:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Xiu Ju
Anyone had experience with these headphones or recommend something in a similar price range?
There are forums called head-fi that you should check out. And I'll say in advance, sorry about your wallet.
There are many good headphones for that price point(non-Sennheisers probably are better), but I really suggest first making sure your source is decent, and then jumping up to the $150+ price range. I only know Sennheisers, but HD580s on is where the fun starts. Either the 580 or the 595 will do the trick very nicely. It's always a shock when you first put them on.
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige
9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.06.01 18:38:00 -
[23]
KRK RP-5/6/8
Are teh pwn. They are worth all your money dammit!
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Originally by: Galack Fyar
Burn in a hole
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.06.01 20:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Marquis Dean
KRK RP-5/6/8
Are teh pwn. They are worth all your money dammit!
good to hear.. can't wait to get them :)
I keep hoping someone doesn't post something that I'd regret seeing in this thread
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige
9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.06.02 00:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Blind Man
Originally by: Marquis Dean
KRK RP-5/6/8
Are teh pwn. They are worth all your money dammit!
good to hear.. can't wait to get them :)
I keep hoping someone doesn't post something that I'd regret seeing in this thread
They ate my desk, but i'll forgive them cause, tbh, listening to music through them is preferable to sex. Srsly.
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Originally by: Galack Fyar
Burn in a hole
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.06.02 02:37:00 -
[26]
haha
ILL PUT EM LIKE DIS!
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Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.02 03:58:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Vari on 02/06/2007 03:57:09
Originally by: Blind Man
haha
ILL PUT EM LIKE DIS!
Hah, your scale's a little off. Notice how his speakers (I dunno whether they're RP5/6/8s) are about half the width of his keyboard.
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Marquis Dean
Demise and Vestige
9th Fleet
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Posted - 2007.06.02 07:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vari
Edited by: Vari on 02/06/2007 03:57:09
Originally by: Blind Man
haha
ILL PUT EM LIKE DIS!
Hah, your scale's a little off. Notice how his speakers (I dunno whether they're RP5/6/8s) are about half the width of his keyboard.
Mine are RP-6 (6 inch main speaker, obv) if that gives you more scale. It's a little over 8 inches across, and absurdly deep. For best sound coverage and depth they ought to be at least 2-3 feet away from you, at a 45 degree angle on either side of your head. I'd draw a pic but i'm about to go out. (wtf i'm awake at 8.15am).
---
Originally by: Galack Fyar
Burn in a hole
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Xiu Ju
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:59:00 -
[29]
Ok well me and blind are gonna be running to the computer store later today to get some stuff including our sound cards but weve been debating on which one to get, im hearing stuff about staying away from the x-fi extreme gamer (Linkage
Linkage).
The second link there says to stay away from certain x-fi cards. Im not sure if thats just modding purposes or overall.
There saying that the extreme audio card is the best value but i heard that it kinda blew chunks...
So were both kind of lost, i was going to go with the x-fi extreme gamer and same with blind (who can no longer post cause his account is deactivated) so weve come to the eve-o forums for help once again. Which sound card would you recommend for Blinds speakers and which card would you recommend for me running headphones such as the HD595 or a900's
IMMA BACK BEOTCHES |
Vari
Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.02 16:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Xiu Ju
So were both kind of lost, i was going to go with the x-fi extreme gamer and same with blind (who can no longer post cause his account is deactivated) so weve come to the eve-o forums for help once again. Which sound card would you recommend for Blinds speakers and which card would you recommend for me running headphones such as the HD595 or a900's
If you plan on having some gaming abilities then the Xi-Fi series is your only choice (it's not that bad of one TBH). If not, then you should check out Head-Fi and see what they say, there are plenty of musical soundcards out there at all price points.
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