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Jesters Knight
Eclipse Enterprises
Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:11:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Dal Thrax
Originally by: OverKill
Oh, add one more thing...
White Wolf (whom is now CCP's partner) is Incorporated in the United States so US Law might be applicable as well.
So they could make it an Icelandic / United States of America tag team double duo of doom, death and destruction.
Wrong White Wolf Inc (a Georgia Company) has merged with CCP North America (a Deleware Company). White Wolf Inc no longer exists as CCP North America is the survivor company. CCP North America is a separate company from CCP Iceland though presumably all shares of CCP N.A. are owned by CCP Iceland.
The corporation filing of both the State of Georgia and the State of Deleware are online.
Dal
see, thats why im glad we have people who know what is going on, i didnt realize this and it makes things a bit different now.
Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming
Salvage Drone Operation |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:19:00 -
[32]
Despite what the EULA says.... Internet law might put UK law into effect because that's where the actual platform is. Then again I'm no lawyer (allthough have dealt with similar cases through the business I do proffesionally, which always boiled down to: law of where the servers are is the law into effect).
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Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
we are screwed.
My Top 10 List |
Jesters Knight
Eclipse Enterprises
Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Despite what the EULA says.... Internet law might put UK law into effect because that's where the actual platform is. Then again I'm no lawyer (allthough have dealt with similar cases through the business I do proffesionally, which always boiled down to: law of where the servers are is the law into effect).
I think we also would need to know the specific item in question to really compair laws.
as well as the person(s) that it is against.
CCP Iceland im srue falls under icelandic jurisdiction, you the user fall under yours, if you do something (ingame or out) to attack someone else (in a legal setting, not the .4 gatecamp) then i think that depending on who was prosicuting who as what cort it would have to go to.
without a specific example the law isnt something that can really have "the word" put down on.
Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming
Salvage Drone Operation |
Esu Nahalas
RONA Midgard Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:28:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jesters Knight
most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law.
Thats because the american justice system is crap.
So "crappy," in fact, that American contracts (at least, the ones drafted by people who know what they're doing) have a "Conflict of Law" clause that specifies the jurisdiction whose law prevails in case of a disagreement. In other words, if you sign an American contract with an American-favoring Conflict of Law clause and try to sue in an extra-American court, you will receive a nice letter on official letterhead telling you to "pound sand."
Looks like CCP has the same sort of clause in its EULA. |
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jesters Knight
Originally by: DrAtomic
Despite what the EULA says.... Internet law might put UK law into effect because that's where the actual platform is. Then again I'm no lawyer (allthough have dealt with similar cases through the business I do proffesionally, which always boiled down to: law of where the servers are is the law into effect).
I think we also would need to know the specific item in question to really compair laws.
My experience in the field is with digital content (i.e. music hosted on a server).
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Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
we are screwed.
My Top 10 List |
Jesters Knight
Eclipse Enterprises
Empire Research
|
Posted - 2007.05.29 20:40:00 -
[36]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Jesters Knight
Originally by: DrAtomic
Despite what the EULA says.... Internet law might put UK law into effect because that's where the actual platform is. Then again I'm no lawyer (allthough have dealt with similar cases through the business I do proffesionally, which always boiled down to: law of where the servers are is the law into effect).
I think we also would need to know the specific item in question to really compair laws.
My experience in the field is with digital content (i.e. music hosted on a server).
ohhh, fun stuff.
but i was refering to the OP's question
without knowing what the violation and who got violated its hard to say.
i think in this case anything that was electronic is provided as a service, and CCP would simply deny service and ignore (thats what i would do instead of getting into a lawsuit over someone being unhappy about the game)
Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming
Salvage Drone Operation |
WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:55:00 -
[37]
Why are we talking about this topic?
I can't think of right we have as players, that is not given to us by CCP when it comes to their property.
Its been proven when a court decides another company sides of its own country is at fault, that unless the company who is found at fault ( in this example a anti-spam company ) decides to pay the fine, they really don't have to pay the fine.
Infact they don't even have to show up in court, of course at the sametime said court can make their life difficult, which means they end up paying the fine.
US Companies do this all the time, they form the company in a state with laws that written towards to protect them, which means you would have to sue in that given state. This is done for many reasons, and perhaps its wrong that different states protect companies with different laws, but thats our system so we have to live with it.
So CCP has every right to choose the place where it will defend itself against suites.
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Esu Nahalas
RONA Midgard Academy
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: WhitePhantom
Why are we talking about this topic?
I can't think of right we have as players, that is not given to us by CCP when it comes to their property.
Its been proven when a court decides another company sides of its own country is at fault, that unless the company who is found at fault ( in this example a anti-spam company ) decides to pay the fine, they really don't have to pay the fine.
Infact they don't even have to show up in court, of course at the sametime said court can make their life difficult, which means they end up paying the fine.
US Companies do this all the time, they form the company in a state with laws that written towards to protect them, which means you would have to sue in that given state. This is done for many reasons, and perhaps its wrong that different states protect companies with different laws, but thats our system so we have to live with it.
So CCP has every right to choose the place where it will defend itself against suites.
U.S. Corporations tend to incorporate in, say, Delaware because of its favorable tax climate. If you are injured by a Delaware corporation in the state of California, you may sue in California. |
LarryBlackshear
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:00:00 -
[39]
The question I have always wondered is this:
12 year old child in the United States (say Flordia) uses his pay-pal account and buys/installs/plays Eve on the family computer. Of course he clicks the EULA, which includes the choice of law and venue provisions.
3 Months later the family computer catches fire and all the data is lost. Family blames Eve (why doesn't matter, just play along) and sues in Federal Court in Flordia for the damage.
Then what?
I would think that US Courts would have jurisdiction under the minimum contact test of International Shoe.
The question then becomes the choice of law and venue provisions of the EULA. While those have generally been enforced -- could the contract be void because it was executed by a minor (the 12 year old)?
If yes -- then what?
My take is that while the fact pattern required is far afield, it could be required that CCP defend itself in a US Court.
Any other ideas?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:17:00 -
[40]
Originally by: LarryBlackshear
12 year old child in the United States (say Flordia) uses his pay-pal account and buys/installs/plays Eve on the family computer. Of course he clicks the EULA, which includes the choice of law and venue provisions.
3 Months later the family computer catches fire and all the data is lost. Family blames Eve (why doesn't matter, just play along) and sues in Federal Court in Flordia for the damage.
Then what?
I would think that US Courts would have jurisdiction under the minimum contact test of International Shoe.
The question then becomes the choice of law and venue provisions of the EULA. While those have generally been enforced -- could the contract be void because it was executed by a minor (the 12 year old)?
If yes -- then what?
My take is that while the fact pattern required is far afield, it could be required that CCP defend itself in a US Court.
Any other ideas?
You may want to come up with a different example. In this case if CCP (somehow) caused a fire in the family computer it is not a matter for the EULA anymore. It'd be a case of negligence on CCP's part and the family could sue in a US court.
Now can that court enforce its decision (e.g. collect damages) from CCP in Iceland? I have no idea. There may be international law on this or not...dunno. Could the court collect from their US based operations or are those sufficiently separate as companies that collection could not occur? Again dunno.
In theory the courts could make it difficult for CCP to do business in the US in the future. I also wonder if a CCP Officer ever visited if the US could grab him/her when they arrived (contempt of court for ingoring a judicial ruling?). As long as they stay in Iceland though they are probably pretty safe.
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LymeM
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:25:00 -
[41]
While it is pretty cool to write a EULA that says whatever, the simple fact of the matter is that the EULA being signed MUST comply with the law of the land. You might be able to sign away rights given to you in law in the USA, however in places such as Canada you are not legaly bound to a contract (even if you signed it in blood) if it is in contradiction to Canadian law ie: When in Canada, Canada is the law that matters.
In this way, CCP can write anything they want but simply writing it and having a button that says 'I have read and agree' does not make it so. note: click through licencing agreements have been proven to be unenforceable on this matter. Legal agreements that are contained within a shrink wrapped package, that say you have agreed by opening the package have also been shown to be unenforceable.
On that note, in Canada CCP is bound by Canadian law so far as they sell their product for use within Canada. Further, as CCP has a office in the USA http://www.ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx and is hiring for positions related to EVE, CCP in respect to EVE is bound to American law in the state where those offices reside. That is irregardless to the parent child corporation makeup.
But hey, unless they break the law and your willing to sue them, this doesn't make a lick of difference.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: LymeM
That is irregardless...
I do not think that "word" means what you think it means.
Sorry...pet peeve of mine. Carry on!
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jesters Knight
Edited by: Jesters Knight on 29/05/2007 18:36:24
Originally by: Reithan
Yes, EULAs are legally binding.
Yes, it's possible to waive a right.
The big one they could be screwed by is that in the US, minors are not legally able to enter into contract, so if you're under 18 in the US the whole EULA is moot.
I dont think that the EULA would hold up in a US cort of law.
most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law.
I agree that they can deny you access to the game but if you conspire to commit murder (assuming that it is legal in iceland) and you are in the US they will still nail you for it even though the medium that you used was "under icelandic laws"
Electronic signatures. You put your name and address information in the system when you create an account, you have legally signed an electronic document.
Much the same way as putting your name in an email you send holds the legal equivalence of a written signature.
Putting false information in could actually be prosecuted as fraud.
As far as contract law, the software was written in Iceland, the physical servers are located in Iceland, there's some precedent that says the entirety of EVE occurs within Icelandic territory, and is thus solely under Icelandic law.
Logging into their servers to play puts us under Icelandic jurisdiction, just as hacking a computer at a remote site puts you in violation of the law in the jurisdiction where the computer is located.
This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless... |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:54:00 -
[44]
Everytime someone says something about Icelandic courts, I keep picturing this old man in a Viking helmet... maybe I'm just not cultured enough  .
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LymeM
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: LymeM
That is irregardless...
I do not think that "word" means what you think it means.
Sorry...pet peeve of mine. Carry on!
Sorry, you are right.. should have been 'regardless'
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:59:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Everytime someone says something about Icelandic courts, I keep picturing this old man in a Viking helmet... maybe I'm just not cultured enough .
From what I've heard, its more like Ibiza West.
This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless... |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.29 23:01:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Janu Hull
As far as contract law, the software was written in Iceland, the physical servers are located in Iceland, there's some precedent that says the entirety of EVE occurs within Icelandic territory, and is thus solely under Icelandic law.
The physical servers are actually in Great Britain. And of course there is a set in China as well.
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Bluebeard
LoneStar Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.29 23:02:00 -
[48]
You could certainly try to sue CCP in a UK court, regardless of what the EULA says.
(You can try to sue them anywhere, Israel, Brazil, the Moon etc with varying degrees of success)
They may or may not turn up to contest the action, depending on whether they thought the Court had any validity.
The tricky bit is claiming your reward if you win.
Now if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and you won, then as the Servers are in London, you'd just send in the Bailiffs to confiscate Servers to the value awarded.
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LarryBlackshear
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:50:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Janu Hull
As far as contract law, the software was written in Iceland, the physical servers are located in Iceland, there's some precedent that says the entirety of EVE occurs within Icelandic territory, and is thus solely under Icelandic law.
The physical servers are actually in Great Britain. And of course there is a set in China as well.
There is US authority to the contrary -- the test isn't just the physical location of the servers/officers/etc. If you are interested, the cite is Zippo Mfg. Co. v. Zippo Dot Com, Inc. 952 F.Supp. 1119, *1124 (W.D.Pa.,1997)
I would guess that CCP & Eve meet the standard, and would be subject to US jurisdiction.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.05.30 08:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: LarryBlackshear
The question I have always wondered is this:
12 year old child in the United States (say Flordia) uses his pay-pal account and buys/installs/plays Eve on the family computer. Of course he clicks the EULA, which includes the choice of law and venue provisions.
3 Months later the family computer catches fire and all the data is lost. Family blames Eve (why doesn't matter, just play along) and sues in Federal Court in Flordia for the damage.
Then what?
I would think that US Courts would have jurisdiction under the minimum contact test of International Shoe.
The question then becomes the choice of law and venue provisions of the EULA. While those have generally been enforced -- could the contract be void because it was executed by a minor (the 12 year old)?
If yes -- then what?
My take is that while the fact pattern required is far afield, it could be required that CCP defend itself in a US Court.
Any other ideas?
I dont think you can sue ccp for that. Lets think of it another way. I heard about a case in the US where a old women put her pet in a microwave to dry it, there wasnt any mention in the microwaves description that this is a tad unhealthy for the pet. She sued and got the usual lottery win that you get in america if you sue a company in US  .
Now lets pretend you live in america, but buy a microwave in europe or china and have it send to you. Same deal, pet in, sploided roast out, but you cant sue that european company for millions, because it operates under different laws. You can only do this with US companys, or has anyone ever heard of a case where a foreign company was put on trial in the US? Different case it is with subsidiary companys like car producers have, you can sue ford in germany, but only because ford germany is a german company.
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wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 08:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Deckard Bishop
from the end user license agreement:
GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
woo look on that and when we pay on suscribtion we agree on that .....
well at least u cant exclude good faith ...
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w0rmy
M. Corp
M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:02:00 -
[52]
Depending on where they live will depend on whether CCP will be wasting there money or not.
For example, take legal action against say, myself as an example. I may end up owing $100000 under Icelandic law, but New Zealand law says I can sit back here with a bong and laugh at them.
And yes, I know this from experience, its a big part of my job.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:04:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Bluebeard
You could certainly try to sue CCP in a UK court, regardless of what the EULA says.
(You can try to sue them anywhere, Israel, Brazil, the Moon etc with varying degrees of success)
They may or may not turn up to contest the action, depending on whether they thought the Court had any validity.
The tricky bit is claiming your reward if you win.
Now if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and you won, then as the Servers are in London, you'd just send in the Bailiffs to confiscate Servers to the value awarded.
uk court can agree whatever they want
but in contract u can set what law system or what country law u want to use
so thats it
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Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:31:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Everytime someone says something about Icelandic courts, I keep picturing this old man in a Viking helmet... maybe I'm just not cultured enough .
Holding a keg of beer and bellowing at the top of his lungs "Trial by combat!"
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Raem Civrie
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:45:00 -
[55]
How the hell are you going to sue a corporation outside it's country, unless you're possibly suing for a cessation of service in said country?
Even if you win the case, only the resident government has any sort of judicial power over them.
So you can sue until you're purple and blue in the US. It just won't mean a thing.
----
I solemnly vow never to check the date of a topic or post. |
Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar
Matari Holo News Network
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:26:00 -
[56]
To date no EULA for an MMO has survived a court test in European Union or The United States. Whether CCPs would stand or not I can't be sure, but precedent would suggest most likely it would be struck down.
Idea: Treaties
Idea: Jump Rigs |
Miranda Duvall
Gallente
OPM Holdings
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:47:00 -
[57]
A nice example of US Court thinking it has jurisdiction over the entire world:
http://www.spamhaus.org/organization/statement.lasso?ref=3
A US Court decided in favor of a spammer against spamhouse anti-spam organisation, who didnt show up in court because they have nothing to do with US law... Its a fun read...
My Skills -Invention HowTo |
Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:57:00 -
[58]
It largely depends on the judge in any case that comes forward. I have heard of instances where judges throw it out, but I can't quote specifics at the moment.
On a related note, a lot of companies have new employees sign a waiver that essentially says that if they leave a company, they will not work for a competitor for a period of two years. That waiver does not usually hold up in court, except in rare circumstances where the employee is part of the executive management team - even then its touch and go.
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09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0 |
lin ta
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:58:00 -
[59]
i do know that some of the online gambling sites that lost cases in the US and decided not to comply with the courts decision had their ip blocked from the US. so:
1.a case can be brought in the US against a company that posts it is governed under xxxx countries laws.
2.even if the company convicted decides not to comply there are very real consequences.
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Aybabtu
Chickens with an Attitude
Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:32:00 -
[60]
(sorry CCP, but my government will WTFBQ that EULA if you try and say otherwise and we all know it) "" quote from above...
There is a few more posts about the ccp rules and not holding up in an American court. Its funny how Americans as a whole seem to think their laws apply to other countries.
I would think the Icelandic governments replies to any American court rulings about CCPs Icelandic business practices would be something along the lines of .. 0'rly?
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