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Jawas
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.30 12:34:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Jawas on 30/05/2007 12:37:46
 Originally by: Aybabtu
(sorry CCP, but my government will WTFBQ that EULA if you try and say otherwise and we all know it) "" quote from above...
There is a few more posts about the ccp rules and not holding up in an American court. Its funny how Americans as a whole seem to think their laws apply to other countries.
I would think the Icelandic governments replies to any American court rulings about CCPs Icelandic business practices would be something along the lines of .. 0'rly?
I am quite sure that CCP has a legal department just the same as any other company. They have no doubt already looked into this and written the EULA accordingly, taking into account what they can and cannot do. I think you'll find that the EULA is a legally binding contract no matter what country you come from.
I have studied business law and know that most of the internet is governed by international law rather than local law. This has come about by the very nature of the discussion brought up here.
As for minors and contracts: The minor doesn't make the contract since "The parents agree to the terms of the contract by allowing the minor to use the internet and agree to contracts unsupervised". That one already went to court. A family took EA to court because their son agreed to a contract for an online game and billed the fathers credit card  The family tried to sue EA for billing the card with authorisation from a minor. The arguement from EA was that they could not determine whether it was a minor or not. The fact that a credit card was used is commonly accepted on the internet as proof of age being 18 or over.
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Sig design in training: Remaining time 30 years 20 days, 4 hours, 10 mins, 15 seconds. |
Koi Yokuma
Praetorian BlackGuard
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Posted - 2007.05.30 15:21:00 -
[62]
Wow! You guys think the EULA is interesting, you should agree to it and then check out the actual game! Its pretty cool! 
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Fanjita
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Posted - 2007.05.30 15:26:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Jesters Knight
Edited by: Jesters Knight on 29/05/2007 18:36:24
Originally by: Reithan
Yes, EULAs are legally binding.
Yes, it's possible to waive a right.
The big one they could be screwed by is that in the US, minors are not legally able to enter into contract, so if you're under 18 in the US the whole EULA is moot.
I dont think that the EULA would hold up in a US cort of law.
most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law.
I agree that they can deny you access to the game but if you conspire to commit murder (assuming that it is legal in iceland) and you are in the US they will still nail you for it even though the medium that you used was "under icelandic laws"
very few if any eula's would hold up in any court of law
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ER0X
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.30 16:56:00 -
[64]
Originally by: wierchas noobhunter
Originally by: Deckard Bishop
from the end user license agreement:
GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
woo look on that and when we pay on suscribtion we agree on that ..... 
well at least u cant exclude good faith ...
Im not sure if your having a PoP here or not, but, I think CCP have been very up front about their business in this section of the EULA. They are informing the user that they are not subject to the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods,
which again sheds light, and dismisses the next posters thoughts..
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
To date no EULA for an MMO has survived a court test in European Union or The United States. Whether CCPs would stand or not I can't be sure, but precedent would suggest most likely it would be struck down.
Because, well at least the last time I checked...
The Republic of Iceland is neither a member of the United States of America nor the Europian Union ergo is not subject to any of their laws. ( with the possible exception of fishing international waters,., but dont quote me on that )
Originally by: Aybabtu
(sorry CCP, but my government will WTFBQ that EULA if you try and say otherwise and we all know it) "" quote from above...
There is a few more posts about the ccp rules and not holding up in an American court. Its funny how Americans as a whole seem to think their laws apply to other countries.
I would think the Icelandic governments replies to any American court rulings about CCPs Icelandic business practices would be something along the lines of .. 0'rly?
Which is more or less what this person is saying^^.
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Bluebeard
LoneStar Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:29:00 -
[65]
Originally by: wierchas noobhunter
Edited by: wierchas noobhunter on 30/05/2007 09:04:34
Originally by: Bluebeard
You could certainly try to sue CCP in a UK court, regardless of what the EULA says.
(You can try to sue them anywhere, Israel, Brazil, the Moon etc with varying degrees of success)
They may or may not turn up to contest the action, depending on whether they thought the Court had any validity.
The tricky bit is claiming your reward if you win.
Now if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and you won, then as the Servers are in London, you'd just send in the Bailiffs to confiscate Servers to the value awarded.
uk court can agree whatever they want
but in contract u can set what law system or what country law u want to use
so thats it
ohh and usualy u use in country where place of biusines of your oponent is ... so that hell yeah iceland 100 % all the time ...
You obviously misread what I posted.
I said if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and ruled against CCP, then any assets in the UK could (and would) be seized if CCP decided not to pay.
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Broska
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:33:00 -
[66]
The whole point of a EULA is to provide a company with a valid reason for refusing to sell you their product / service. Or to cancel their contract with you.
There's no point arguing over "Oh CCP couldn't sue him her for this that and the other because there in a differant country". Because they would never sue someone over the EULA. The EULA is there to PROTECT CCP against people suing THEM for breach of contract. In it, it clearly states that if they wish to do this, they must do it under Icelandic law. Which means that member of coperation G (Guess who that is!), Couldn't sue them under European or UK law as they have no legal right to enforce the contract / give damages as Iceland is not a member of the EU. And even if they weren't how are they going to force an Icelandic company to pay damages to a UK customer?
The other legal issue that's been brought up recently on the forums is about CCP suing other people for either Criminal Damage or Liable (in Tort). To do this CCP would simply have to sue them in their country of origin's laws. As only they have real power to execute the punishments as a result of a guilty virdict (or a ruling against them in Tort).
Certain member's of corperation G will be royaly buggered if CCP takes action on the UK member's of corperation G as under UK law it would be highly likely that certain members of corperation G's actions are extreemly liablus. Criminal front could go either way.
Btw I appologise for the spelling, I am a law student but I am dyslexic.
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Originally by: Tovarishch
flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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Rak Rosse
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:37:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Rak Rosse on 30/05/2007 17:38:34
You'd think that with all the lawyers self-identifying themselves here the obvious would have been pointed out sooner:
You don't talk to your lawyers just about law suits and taking legal action can mean lots of other things besides suing.
Legal action could include reviewing contracts for breeches, ending contracts, checking for EULA violations, and sending letters seeking redress. None of these involve a law suit, certainly not as a first step, and the point of consulting with one's lawyers would be to make sure that a law suit wasn't the result if action was taken prior to taking that action. |
Broska
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:39:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Rak Rosse
You'd think that with all the lawyers self-identifying themselves here the obvious would have been pointed out sooner:
You don't talk to your lawyers just about law suits and taking legal action can mean lots of other things besides suing.
Legal action could include reviewing contracts for breeches, ending contracts, checking for EULA violations, and sending letters seeking redress. None of these involve a law suit, certainly not as a first step, and the point of consulting with one's lawyers would be to make sure that a law suit wasn't the result if any action was taken prior to taking action.
You do talk to lawyers about law suits, Suing does not simply mean suing for damages, you can sue for injunctions, cause for termination, specific perfomance amounst other things.
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Originally by: Tovarishch
flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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Rak Rosse
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:42:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Broska
You do talk to lawyers about law suits, Suing does not simply mean suing for damages, you can sue for injunctions, cause for termination, specific perfomance amounst other things.
But it's not the only thing you talk to them about, and that's how people discussing the topic have been approaching it up to now. The practice of commercial law involves a lot more not-suing than it does suing.
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Broska
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:47:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Broska on 30/05/2007 17:46:48
Originally by: Rak Rosse
Originally by: Broska
You do talk to lawyers about law suits, Suing does not simply mean suing for damages, you can sue for injunctions, cause for termination, specific perfomance amounst other things.
But it's not the only thing you talk to them about, and that's how people discussing the topic have been approaching it up to now. The practice of commercial law involves a lot more not-suing than it does suing.
ADR in commercial law is usualy between two company's or Insurance company and claimant or in a situation where a company does not wish to go through the hassle of defending themselves through court. I think it's safe to assume by what was mentioned by CCP as regard's to legal action, is set to mean prosicution and law suits. Simply because I don't for see CCP going to Mattini and who-ever "Well we could sue you and get money, or you could just give us some".
And there is no ADR in Criminal Prosocutions.
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Originally by: Tovarishch
flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:54:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Bluebeard
Originally by: wierchas noobhunter
Edited by: wierchas noobhunter on 30/05/2007 09:04:34
Originally by: Bluebeard
You could certainly try to sue CCP in a UK court, regardless of what the EULA says.
(You can try to sue them anywhere, Israel, Brazil, the Moon etc with varying degrees of success)
They may or may not turn up to contest the action, depending on whether they thought the Court had any validity.
The tricky bit is claiming your reward if you win.
Now if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and you won, then as the Servers are in London, you'd just send in the Bailiffs to confiscate Servers to the value awarded.
uk court can agree whatever they want
but in contract u can set what law system or what country law u want to use
so thats it
ohh and usualy u use in country where place of biusines of your oponent is ... so that hell yeah iceland 100 % all the time ...
You obviously misread what I posted.
I said if a UK Court agreed to hear the case and ruled against CCP, then any assets in the UK could (and would) be seized if CCP decided not to pay.
ohh sry was lack of time to read everything
yeah ofc agree totaly on that
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Rak Rosse
Dark-Rising
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:54:00 -
[72]
There is, or was, at least one business contract between the two groups: account referral program. Legal action could be as simple as seeing if the contract could be ended. There doesn't need to be a law suit involved with that example,just a call to the lawyers to say, "see if we can get out of this without any problems."
Jumping immediately to the conclusion that legal action means a lawsuit is just guessing and leaves out a whole spectrum of legal activity.
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wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 17:58:00 -
[73]
Originally by: ER0X
Originally by: wierchas noobhunter
Originally by: Deckard Bishop
from the end user license agreement:
GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM
The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
woo look on that and when we pay on suscribtion we agree on that .....
well at least u cant exclude good faith ...
Im not sure if your having a PoP here or not, but, I think CCP have been very up front about their business in this section of the EULA. They are informing the user that they are not subject to the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods,
which again sheds light, and dismisses the next posters thoughts..
Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf
To date no EULA for an MMO has survived a court test in European Union or The United States. Whether CCPs would stand or not I can't be sure, but precedent would suggest most likely it would be struck down.
Because, well at least the last time I checked...
The Republic of Iceland is neither a member of the United States of America nor the Europian Union ergo is not subject to any of their laws. ( with the possible exception of fishing international waters,., but dont quote me on that )
Originally by: Aybabtu
(sorry CCP, but my government will WTFBQ that EULA if you try and say otherwise and we all know it) "" quote from above...
There is a few more posts about the ccp rules and not holding up in an American court. Its funny how Americans as a whole seem to think their laws apply to other countries.
I would think the Icelandic governments replies to any American court rulings about CCPs Icelandic business practices would be something along the lines of .. 0'rly?
Which is more or less what this person is saying^^.
cisg covers everything
and like above poster say i totlay disagree
if ccp would loss in us court .. well thats u can say its end
they no need be party of us or eu so w/e
ps cos iceland like usa ( well part of) are members of cisg convention i dont see how they could not say:
'well we dont care what u say in your eula we think thsi matter is covered in cisg so therefore our decision is legal )
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Broska
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:01:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Rak Rosse
There is, or was, at least one business contract between the two groups: account referral program. Legal action could be as simple as seeing if the contract could be ended. There doesn't need to be a law suit involved with that example,just a call to the lawyers to say, "see if we can get out of this without any problems."
Jumping immediately to the conclusion that legal action means a lawsuit is just guessing and leaves out a whole spectrum of legal activity.
No it wouldn't.
CCP would simply just end the contract. The people who the contract was made with would then have to sue CCP to get an order for specifict performance.
------------------------------
Originally by: Tovarishch
flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:02:00 -
[75]
well i just want say
dont tell any crpa about cisg tbh i sleep with it now .. exam in 1 day ... yes i do know better then u ...
so w/e
and if u want to be use yes almost all time it all law stuff will be covered under iceland law
tho personaly i hate that cisg( tbh i <3 it) is not part of eula
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DiuxDium
Free Mercenaries Union
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:03:00 -
[76]
Edited by: DiuxDium on 30/05/2007 18:02:56
I will sue every mother ******* one of you mother ******* if you so ******* much as ******* LOOK at my lunch. You mother ******* don't ******* know who the **** you're ******* messing with here, I will ******* **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** kill you ****s **** *** *** ******** *** ********** ***** ***** **** ****** ** and **** *** **** you *** **** **** if you dare *** *** **** ****** **** **** ******* ***** you stupid son of a ****** **** *** *** ****
e; btw, this thread is about "LOL CCP WILL SUE GOONSWARM" right? Because I don't think we've ran that drama llama into the ground, so I'm just assuming that's what this thread is all about.
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[En] - So....I think the devs don't like me. |
wierchas noobhunter
LFC
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:10:00 -
[77]
Originally by: DiuxDium
Edited by: DiuxDium on 30/05/2007 18:02:56
I will sue every mother ******* one of you mother ******* if you so ******* much as ******* LOOK at my lunch. You mother ******* don't ******* know who the **** you're ******* messing with here, I will ******* **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** kill you ****s **** *** *** ******** *** ********** ***** ***** **** ****** ** and **** *** **** you *** **** **** if you dare *** *** **** ****** **** **** ******* ***** you stupid son of a ****** **** *** *** ****
e; btw, this thread is about "LOL CCP WILL SUE GOONSWARM" right? Because I don't think we've ran that drama llama into the ground, so I'm just assuming that's what this thread is all about.
who cares tbh if someone sues someone ..
it was aksed under waht country law ... well its iceland .. lets end this pointles discutions
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Broska
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.30 18:10:00 -
[78]
Originally by: DiuxDium
Edited by: DiuxDium on 30/05/2007 18:02:56
I will sue every mother ******* one of you mother ******* if you so ******* much as ******* LOOK at my lunch. You mother ******* don't ******* know who the **** you're ******* messing with here, I will ******* **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** kill you ****s **** *** *** ******** *** ********** ***** ***** **** ****** ** and **** *** **** you *** **** **** if you dare *** *** **** ****** **** **** ******* ***** you stupid son of a ****** **** *** *** ****
e; btw, this thread is about "LOL CCP WILL SUE GOONSWARM" right? Because I don't think we've ran that drama llama into the ground, so I'm just assuming that's what this thread is all about.
Why not? CCP has every right to sue the members of GS responsible for causing this crap. There FALSE accusations damaged the company's reputation. Their actions (the ones who spammed the forums) caused (aguably depending on what legal system your going on) criminal damage.
Why the hell shouldn't they sue the people responsibe (or at least just the major culprits).
------------------------------
Originally by: Tovarishch
flying a Scorp into a fleet battle is like parking a pink moped in front of a biker bar - you will die... quickly.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
VentureCorp
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.30 19:03:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Broska
Originally by: DiuxDium
Edited by: DiuxDium on 30/05/2007 18:02:56
I will sue every mother ******* one of you mother ******* if you so ******* much as ******* LOOK at my lunch. You mother ******* don't ******* know who the **** you're ******* messing with here, I will ******* **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** kill you ****s **** *** *** ******** *** ********** ***** ***** **** ****** ** and **** *** **** you *** **** **** if you dare *** *** **** ****** **** **** ******* ***** you stupid son of a ****** **** *** *** ****
e; btw, this thread is about "LOL CCP WILL SUE GOONSWARM" right? Because I don't think we've ran that drama llama into the ground, so I'm just assuming that's what this thread is all about.
Why not? CCP has every right to sue the members of GS responsible for causing this crap. There FALSE accusations damaged the company's reputation. Their actions (the ones who spammed the forums) caused (aguably depending on what legal system your going on) criminal damage.
Why the hell shouldn't they sue the people responsibe (or at least just the major culprits).
Let's go to fairyland and pretend that CCP did actually pursue damages against goonswarm, or more likly, one of there members. They would have to prove that the allegations were false, which is a very difficult thing to do. So much hinges on intent, which is almost impossible to prove.
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LymeM
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.30 19:55:00 -
[80]
Things are pretty simple, lets take some contrived situations.
If CCP sues GoonFleet in Iceland, the worst that can happen is they loose a significant amount of income from the ~4000 accounts in Goonfleet. There is no other punitive damages that CCP can direct against them from Iceland. Any legal preceeding by ccp would have to happen under Icelandic law, otherwise the EULA is in breech.
Should CCP sue GoonFleet in the UK the CCP winning senerio works out the same above, with the exception that CCP has made legal precidence that they are now subject to UK law. Should CCP loose, punitive measures can be held against CCP's server farm.
The interesting case is not the second listed above but in the USA, but is if CCP should sue GoonFleet in the UK and win and then GoonFleet counter sues in the USA we come into the realm of international law and US+UK treaties. The UK+US have a civil law extradition treaty among others. And so, should CCP sue GoonFleet in the UK, by proxy they become under the juristiction of American law or at least the server farm does.
Lets face it, if CCP sues they could win the court case but will loose subscribers. If they sue and loose, they could have their server farm taken in reperations.
As it is, CCP is loosing subscribers (for reasons and background see other threads).
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ER0X
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.30 20:44:00 -
[81]
Originally by: LymeM
Things are pretty simple, lets take some contrived situations.
If CCP sues GoonFleet in Iceland, the worst that can happen is they loose a significant amount of income from the ~4000 accounts in Goonfleet. There is no other punitive damages that CCP can direct against them from Iceland. Any legal preceeding by ccp would have to happen under Icelandic law, otherwise the EULA is in breech.
Should CCP sue GoonFleet in the UK the CCP winning senerio works out the same above, with the exception that CCP has made legal precidence that they are now subject to UK law. Should CCP loose, punitive measures can be held against CCP's server farm.
The interesting case is not the second listed above but in the USA, but is if CCP should sue GoonFleet in the UK and win and then GoonFleet counter sues in the USA we come into the realm of international law and US+UK treaties. The UK+US have a civil law extradition treaty among others. And so, should CCP sue GoonFleet in the UK, by proxy they become under the juristiction of American law or at least the server farm does.
Lets face it, if CCP sues they could win the court case but will loose subscribers. If they sue and loose, they could have their server farm taken in reperations.
As it is, CCP is loosing subscribers (for reasons and background see other threads).
There are a few posters in this thread including the dyslexic law student  that make perfect sense. However let me quickly point out that CISG & UCC are similar but not the same.
As LymeM suggests this is more or less the way any civil law suit would go. I might suggest also that the server farms in question would probably not belong to CCP directly but instead are more likely to be rented from a seperate company, if you catch my drift.
From the dev blog the implied senario is not only one of civil action being raised but also of criminal action. Ofc in this case 'intent' is the key as mentioned above. If any direct order had been given to flood the forum server this could well be construde as an attack, which would imo be extremely dificult to defend in any court of law.
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LymeM
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: ER0X
From the dev blog the implied senario is not only one of civil action being raised but also of criminal action. Ofc in this case 'intent' is the key as mentioned above. If any direct order had been given to flood the forum server this could well be construde as an attack, which would imo be extremely dificult to defend in any court of law.
Given the basis of forums and the fact that CCP was deleting posts instead of responding to them, it can easily be construed as the escalation from one person inquiring to ccp to a protest rally. It is also important to note that while Goonfleet was the root cause of the forums going down they were not brought down from over usage, they were brought down by CCP so they could 'clense' them.
As much as one would like to characterize these as criminal actions the justification is lacking.
All Goonfleet wanted was to be heard and open a mutual discussion with CCP on important matters, while CCP wanted nothing to do it. (note: CCP is starting to change their tune, slowly, and still needs help to do so.)
Given that Goonfleet are also paying players of EVE, do you not think that they deserve to be heard and responded to instead of silenced? Do you not agree that silencing people is a amazing way to annoy someone? As a relatively new EVE player, I am quite surprised that CCP employed such techniques of PR for so long.
note: CCP deleted my post and handed a 24hr forum suspension.
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Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
Universal Exports
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.06.02 15:35:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Koi Yokuma
Wow! You guys think the EULA is interesting, you should agree to it and then check out the actual game! Its pretty cool!
This
____________________
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Daveydweeb
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Posted - 2007.06.03 00:06:00 -
[84]
Originally by: LymeM
Lets face it, if CCP sues they could win the court case but will loose subscribers. If they sue and loose, they could have their server farm taken in reperations.
As it is, CCP is loosing subscribers (for reasons and background see other threads).
I said this in the first official thread on the matter, but it was lost in the noise.
The ultimate truth is that, regardless of whether the EULA was held to be conscionable and legally enforceable, and regardless of whether CCP has any legal basis for taking legal action against any member of their playerbase, to actually do so is nothing short of suicide. The only reason that I can imagine for Arkanon ever mentioning CCP's legal resources is as a petty threat, which his company could never hope to enforce.
Please email us as to why Your signature has been removed - Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Drizit
Amarr
Lonely out here
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.07 15:01:00 -
[85]
Look at it from this point of view.
Enter any country and you agree to abide by its laws. You are not subject to international law even though you are not a permanent resident of the country, you are subject only to the law of the country you are in. You accepted these laws the moment you stepped off the plane/boat or whatever transport you used to get there.
Take that into the cyber-world of the internet. You are now in a country called EVE and as such, are subject to its laws and regulations. You accepted these laws and agreed to abide by them the moment you hit the button labelled "CONNECT". The EULA is simply an outline of the laws so you can browse them before deciding to enter that country. In just the same way you can get a book from the library with regard to the laws of any specific country.
Rather than re-write entire laws, most companies just use the existing laws within a RL country. This does not make it any less acceptable just because it does not happen to be your country's laws that they adopted. You still accepted the laws per-se by clicking on the Connect button.
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Krezeb
Caldari
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2007.07.07 15:41:00 -
[86]
This horse is dead. Please stop flogging it.
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New Sig Pending.... |
Alice Cholmondeley
Christine.
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Posted - 2007.07.07 15:51:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Alice Cholmondeley on 07/07/2007 15:53:12
Originally by: LymeM
Originally by: ER0X
From the dev blog the implied senario is not only one of civil action being raised but also of criminal action. Ofc in this case 'intent' is the key as mentioned above. If any direct order had been given to flood the forum server this could well be construde as an attack, which would imo be extremely dificult to defend in any court of law.
Given the basis of forums and the fact that CCP was deleting posts instead of responding to them, it can easily be construed as the escalation from one person inquiring to ccp to a protest rally. It is also important to note that while Goonfleet was the root cause of the forums going down they were not brought down from over usage, they were brought down by CCP so they could 'clense' them.
As much as one would like to characterize these as criminal actions the justification is lacking.
All Goonfleet wanted was to be heard and open a mutual discussion with CCP on important matters, while CCP wanted nothing to do it. (note: CCP is starting to change their tune, slowly, and still needs help to do so.)
Given that Goonfleet are also paying players of EVE, do you not think that they deserve to be heard and responded to instead of silenced? Do you not agree that silencing people is a amazing way to annoy someone? As a relatively new EVE player, I am quite surprised that CCP employed such techniques of PR for so long.
note: CCP deleted my post and handed a 24hr forum suspension.
All of goonfleet that took part in the abuse should be perm banned.
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Ga'len
Amarr
Wandering Druid
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Posted - 2007.07.07 20:09:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Ga''len on 07/07/2007 20:10:53
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Deckard Bishop
The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
<snip>
You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland.
Can they do that? I mean obviously they wrote it and I am not an attorney but in the US at least you cannot write a contract that has me waive a right. For instance your EULA could state that I agree to a search of my home at any time CCP deems it necessary. Writing that and me "agreeing" to it by playing does not actually grant CCP that right.
Assuming Iceland is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Contracts I cannot see how an individual company could just say, "Nah, we're not gonna follow those rules." If companies could do that what would be the point?
Again though I an not an attorney and this stuff can get pretty involved but it is interesting.
If you read the entire contract, you will find the conditional that sets this as valid. All software licenses have something like this:
"By use of this product, you agree to all terms and conditions."
I think that you will find that most court rulings uphold these terms. It's simply. If you don't agree to the terms, then don't use the product.
It's CCP's product, they decide how it's used. You do have a choice. If you have a problem with the terms, then don't use their product.
Yes, I am the exception that defines the rules. |
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.07.07 20:19:00 -
[89]
Allmost all EULA's are self serving pieces of crap. And allmost all of them fall down in courts of law. What really saves companies from hassle is the fact that once we hit international legal grounds things get so complicated that people don't even bother with lawsuits. Especially when we're talking small claims.
In the end it pays to remember eve is just a game and for those who are not happy the best thing to do is leave really. Or ***** on the forums 
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.07.07 21:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Deckard Bishop
The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
<snip>
You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland.
Can they do that? I mean obviously they wrote it and I am not an attorney but in the US at least you cannot write a contract that has me waive a right. For instance your EULA could state that I agree to a search of my home at any time CCP deems it necessary. Writing that and me "agreeing" to it by playing does not actually grant CCP that right.
Assuming Iceland is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Contracts I cannot see how an individual company could just say, "Nah, we're not gonna follow those rules." If companies could do that what would be the point?
Again though I an not an attorney and this stuff can get pretty involved but it is interesting.
Yes, and no. Contracts must be reasonable, and certain rights can be waivered but only within the context of the contract, and must occur within jurisdiction where applicable, both of the country of the party, the host and the UN Nations law of International Contracts (so you couldn't waiver a human right, for example as they are probably inalienable under UN law).
If you were to take CCP to court, then you would need to do so in Iceland - usually via your home country, and then its transfered as applicable and returned. You can sue a US company, from the UK, and have the order enforced against property held by that company in the UK.
As far as contract laws go the word reasonable rules everything. You could sign away anything, but if the demaned is deemed unreasonable, then in a court of law it would not be recognised.
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