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Hatsim Black Lance	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:13:00 - [1] Edited by: Hatsim on 29/05/2007 18:12:07 under what law does CCP operate at ? "imagine a dozen hornets pouring from the devil's mouth, Now imagine they have autocannons." /Hatsim
Jesters Knight Eclipse Enterprises Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Jesters Knight on 29/05/2007 18:14:01 the company probably operates on icelandic law, however you are restricted to both your local law and there law. (thats why **** sites say "if your under your legal age then leave now") EDIT Pron is blocked as a word.... Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming Salvage Drone Operation
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:16:00 - [3] CCP is incorporated in Iceland so probably Icelandic law. But then their servers are in Great Britain and they have customers from around the world. Presumably international law creeps in there somewhere.

Deckard Bishop Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:20:00 - [4] from the end user license agreement: GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. i you have any other questions you may find the answer here forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website Contact Support - Report Bug - Join ISD

Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Deckard Bishop The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. <snip> You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. Can they do that? I mean obviously they wrote it and I am not an attorney but in the US at least you cannot write a contract that has me waive a right. For instance your EULA could state that I agree to a search of my home at any time CCP deems it necessary. Writing that and me "agreeing" to it by playing does not actually grant CCP that right. Assuming Iceland is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Contracts I cannot see how an individual company could just say, "Nah, we're not gonna follow those rules." If companies could do that what would be the point? Again though I an not an attorney and this stuff can get pretty involved but it is interesting.
Apsa1ar Ex Coelis	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:30:00 - [6] Edited by: Apsa1ar on 29/05/2007 18:29:44 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Can they do that? I mean obviously they wrote it and I am not an attorney but in the US at least you cannot write a contract that has me waive a right. For instance your EULA could state that I agree to a search of my home at any time CCP deems it necessary. Writing that and me "agreeing" to it by playing does not actually grant CCP that right. Assuming Iceland is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Contracts I cannot see how an individual company could just say, "Nah, we're not gonna follow those rules." If companies could do that what would be the point? Again though I an not an attorney and this stuff can get pretty involved but it is interesting. I think you're wrong. I think you can contractually consent to jurisdiction, forum and venue in the U.S. I only recall that vaguely, as law school was a few years ago. Note that there are some circumstances in which a court won't enforce such a clause, but this doesn't look like one of them (for instance, if the selected venue had no connection with the two parties, but was chosen solely because the laws were favorable to the drafter of the contract).
Reithan Caldari Zero Team	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:31:00 - [7] Yes, EULAs are legally binding. Yes, it's possible to waive a right. The big one they could be screwed by is that in the US, minors are not legally able to enter into contract, so if you're under 18 in the US the whole EULA is moot.
Jesters Knight Eclipse Enterprises Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:37:00 - [8] Edited by: Jesters Knight on 29/05/2007 18:36:24 Originally by: Reithan Yes, EULAs are legally binding. Yes, it's possible to waive a right. The big one they could be screwed by is that in the US, minors are not legally able to enter into contract, so if you're under 18 in the US the whole EULA is moot. I dont think that the EULA would hold up in a US cort of law. most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law. I agree that they can deny you access to the game but if you conspire to commit murder (assuming that it is legal in iceland) and you are in the US they will still nail you for it even though the medium that you used was "under icelandic laws" Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming Salvage Drone Operation
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Jesters Knight most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law. Thats because the american justice system is crap. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Ashareth Caldari Disturbed Hoggs	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:41:00 - [10] The choice of the court of justice for settlement is a current practice in international contract law, in most of the countries at least. It's just, most of the time, a way to determine which law is preponderent in case of conflict, and it's legal in most ways. Apple does the same with itunes(i think they operate under UK law for most northern Europe and so on). But yes, sometimes it can lead to abuses. In this cas, the fact that CCP state that the court to refer to is in Iceland is pretty logical cause they are Iceland based. After that, i think local laws may applies in some situation, but most of the time it won't. ------------------------------------------------ "Heaven is for the Dead Hell is for the Living" Harrisson *Flowerchild* AndromFde
Jesters Knight Eclipse Enterprises Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:41:00 - [11] Edited by: Jesters Knight on 29/05/2007 18:41:01 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jesters Knight most contracts arent worth the paper they are written on (or in this case the space it takes up on the HD) when they are presented into a cort of law. Thats because the american justice system is crap. not going to argue with that... however the question was what law CCP operates under, not the players. i am willing to assume that CCP operates under Icelandic law since that is where there HQ is. but im not sure what kind of international comes in since WhiteWolf is in the US and they now have the china office. and the law the player operates under depends on there country (sorry CCP, but my goverment will WTFBQ that EULA if you try and say otherwise and we all know it) Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming Salvage Drone Operation
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Reithan Yes, EULAs are legally binding. Yes, it's possible to waive a right. The big one they could be screwed by is that in the US, minors are not legally able to enter into contract, so if you're under 18 in the US the whole EULA is moot. I know a EULA is legally binding but I also know just writing whatever you want in them does not grant you whatever you see fit. For instance in the US posting a sign that says "swim at your own risk" does not absolve the owner of the pool from all liability (just an example). The United Nations Convention on Contracts thing gets me too. I have not read it but again if Iceland is a signatory it seems odd that an individual corporation could just decide that they will not abide by it. Presumably the laws of Iceland and the agreements the country has duly entered in to with the international community would trump CCP's EULA. NOTE: I have no horse in this race. Just arguing for the fun and interest of it.
Jesters Knight Eclipse Enterprises Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h NOTE: I have no horse in this race. Just arguing for the fun and interest of it. Agree, this is a fun topic to think about Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming Salvage Drone Operation
Igus	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:48:00 - [14] Edited by: Igus on 29/05/2007 18:57:41 In all reality CCP's EULA is meaningless, its just a fancy piece of writing that gives the user false securities. Really CCP could do anything with their IP they wanted, and there is not a dang thing anyone could do about it, EULA or not. Icelandic law is meaningless outside of Icelandic territories. Same goes for any other sovereign nation's laws
Kyoi Shuttles Dont Tank Well	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:52:00 - [15] CCP cannot decide whether they are subject to certain laws or not, either they are or they arn't. As said by others the EULA really is meaningless and wouldn't stand up in any court.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:57:00 - [16] Weee, fun with conventions:-) Regarding the "can they do that?" thing: Yeah, they can. "Article 6 The parties may exclude the application of this Convention or, subject to article 12, derogate from or vary the effect of any of its provisions." Also, article 2 probably means it couldn't apply to the EULA if they wanted to: "This Convention does not apply to sales: (a) of goods bought for personal, family or household use, unless the seller, at any time before or at the conclusion of the contract, neither knew nor ought to have known that the goods were bought for any such use;...: Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
OverKill Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:02:00 - [17] It would be VERY interesting to see under which jurisdiction CCP is forced to operate... CCP is incorporated in Iceland The servers are physically located in the UK The players are located all over the world (point of sale) I would be under the impression that you, being physically located in your country at the point of sale, are governed and protected by your own laws and cannot waive rights to those laws in a foreign country. Any lawyers out there versed in international law? Building With Tomorrow's Technology, Today! Hadean Drive Yards
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:05:00 - [18] Edited by: bloomich on 29/05/2007 19:04:46 Attention all people in the Court of Law. /me notices all people salute the Judge in the US court Prosecution: My client wishes to state that CCP's ELUA does not stand up in US court Judge: I agree, so on which part of the ELUA is the dispute? Prosecution: None of it, my client wishes to state that the ELUA does not stand up in a US court. Judge: Then you may inform your client that he will be standing up on contempt of court. Client: Waves finger at Judge DEVH4X!
OverKill Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:07:00 - [19] Oh, add one more thing... White Wolf (whom is now CCP's partner) is Incorporated in the United States so US Law might be applicable as well. So they could make it an Icelandic / United States of America tag team double duo of doom, death and destruction. Building With Tomorrow's Technology, Today! Hadean Drive Yards
Yblarbo Janks Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:08:00 - [20] CCP operates under other, jury dictionational laws that they don't want you to know about as it's not listed in their EUthingy, such as but not limited to the Law of Gravity, Murphy's Law, Allometric Law, Finagle's Law, Sod's Law (not the type for your space lawns), and LAWL! I shot a man in Mara, just to watch him Die.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:13:00 - [21] Originally by: OverKill I would be under the impression that you, being physically located in your country at the point of sale, are governed and protected by your own laws and cannot waive rights to those laws in a foreign country. True enough. I think we need to distinguish who is suing whom. If you want to sue CCP for breach of contract likely you will have to do so in an Icelandic court. If CCP wants to sue you I am guessing they'd have to come to you. Not sure how they could compel attendance in an Icelandic court of someone they sued not to mention enforcing the verdict from Iceland if you live in another country.
Baron Dots	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:15:00 - [22] I wouldn't be surprised if CCP had the District Court of Reykjavfk on MSN. Don't even bother guys
Jotan Veer HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:32:00 - [23] I was actually involved in a cross border legal dispute between two companies (manufacturer and distributor) and 1. the contract stated that such and such court had jurisdiction (in the country where the manufacturer had its HQ) 2. the distributor was unable to contest jurisdiction. 3. the manufacturer won the case 4. the manufacturer was unable to enforce its claim since the distributor's country and courts didn't give a darn about a court decision made in an overseas country. Just a fun case for all you internet lawyers.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Deckard Bishop from the end user license agreement: GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. "(2) This Convention does not apply to contracts in which the preponderant part of the obligations of the party who furnishes the goods consists in the supply of labour or other services." http://www.cisg.law.pace.edu/cisg/text/treaty.html All MMOs and "services" (rather than physical goods) are exempt :)
Jesters Knight Eclipse Enterprises Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:36:00 - [25] Originally by: OverKill Oh, add one more thing... White Wolf (whom is now CCP's partner) is Incorporated in the United States so US Law might be applicable as well. So they could make it an Icelandic / United States of America tag team double duo of doom, death and destruction. dont forget the offices in China, with the three of them going at it deciding who get jurisdiction nothing would ever happen :) Highsec POS labs with no risk of scamming Salvage Drone Operation
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Deckard Bishop from the end user license agreement: GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. "(2) This Convention does not apply to contracts in which the preponderant part of the obligations of the party who furnishes the goods consists in the supply of labour or other services." http://www.cisg.law.pace.edu/cisg/text/treaty.html All MMOs and "services" (rather than physical goods) are exempt :) Gah, let's see if this double or tripple posts... Can't believe I missed that when I was quoting, even used the exact same site as source. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Dal Thrax Caldari Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Deckard Bishop The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods. <snip> You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. Can they do that? I mean obviously they wrote it and I am not an attorney but in the US at least you cannot write a contract that has me waive a right. For instance your EULA could state that I agree to a search of my home at any time CCP deems it necessary. Writing that and me "agreeing" to it by playing does not actually grant CCP that right. Assuming Iceland is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Contracts I cannot see how an individual company could just say, "Nah, we're not gonna follow those rules." If companies could do that what would be the point? Again though I an not an attorney and this stuff can get pretty involved but it is interesting. I am a US attorney. Yes they can put a forum selection clause in their EULA. This will not protect against criminal prosecution (if US law is being violated then criminal charges can be brought, getting ahold of somebody to prosecute in Iceland is a whole different matter of course). As for your ability to sue under US law it depends. If its a quasi-criminal tort (for example a RICO violation) you might be able to get the forum selection clause thrown out. If not well it's up in the air, I doubt anybody is going to be able to claim Iceland is a corrupt jurisdiction. Of course one question nobody has asked yet is what might CCP's liability be under Icelandic law. Dal Things I learned playing PnP RPGs: 1)Always assume that the players will bring the maximum available firepower against a objective.
Dal Thrax Caldari Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:53:00 - [28] Originally by: OverKill Oh, add one more thing... White Wolf (whom is now CCP's partner) is Incorporated in the United States so US Law might be applicable as well. So they could make it an Icelandic / United States of America tag team double duo of doom, death and destruction. Wrong White Wolf Inc (a Georgia Company) has merged with CCP North America (a Deleware Company). White Wolf Inc no longer exists as CCP North America is the survivor company. CCP North America is a separate company from CCP Iceland though presumably all shares of CCP N.A. are owned by CCP Iceland. The corporation filing of both the State of Georgia and the State of Deleware are online. Dal Things I learned playing PnP RPGs: 1)Always assume that the players will bring the maximum available firepower against a objective.
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Larg Kellein even used the exact same site as source. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=United+Nations+Convention+on+Contracts+for+the+International+Sale+of+Goods&btnG=Google+Search FTW!
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.29 20:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Larg Kellein even used the exact same site as source. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=United+Nations+Convention+on+Contracts+for+the+International+Sale+of+Goods&btnG=Google+Search FTW! Heh, I meant the Pace site, actually, which I admittedly did find through google. It's a great site for stuff like this, though. They tend to make the documents more easily searchable by adding headlines to the various articles. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.

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