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So when does bumping become an Exploit?

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Neveren Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:36:00 - [1] maybe a small baby whine here.. But, I lost a carrier last week, to my own mistake.. but I was unable to recover because 3 cepters hitting me at 5km.. managed to get me going around 150m/s away from my station.. now i am no rocket scientist.. but it does not make much sence to have a Small ship IE Frig/cruiser... able to Push a Capital ship around.. If anything the smaller ship should bounce off Me, and I remain stationary.. Tho i must admit.. It was a fun 30 min fight while 20 ships pounded on me with 4 carriers trying to kill me down... in the end... Being nossed killed me =( mourn Veldspar Fortress mk2 STC recruiting!
Maxamus Rex Caldari Nevada Space Salvage	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:38:00 - [2] it never is, bumping is sop in pvp. Millions for defense not one penny in tribute
E Vile Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:43:00 - [3] The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. It's like a fly hitting a cars windshield and knocking the car into a ditch. Make it like what would really happen to a fly hitting a cars windshield. Splat. Ad some realism to the mechanics in regards to size of ships. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Helmuth Halbstein	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:46:00 - [4] You should aquire hull damgage for this. "Helmuth Halbstein Caldari Gorilla" Cogito Ergo Zoom
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 31/05/2007 13:47:38 Provided you accept that collisions are impossible (they are in the eve universe, so we shall for the sake of this argument) the theory behind bumping is sound, although I'm not sure about the exact figures. According to Einstein, as you accelerate it gets harder and harder, and you have to pump in more and more energy to keep accelerating. The extra energy amazingly is transferred into mass, and so an interceptor travelling at high speed is a lot "heavier" than you would think it to be. Whether 5km/s would make enough of a difference I couldn't say, but the formula is pretty simple: Mass equals energy divided by the square of the speed of light, so m=e/c2 or e=mc2... Work it out and get back to us. I'm intruiged as to whether it actually works out or not :)
Probeltis Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Probeltis on 31/05/2007 13:50:53 /signed Ahmen, if I undock a freighter at Jita 4-4 I should be able to PLOW a path!! Bumping needs fixed. Quick edit: From what I understand no ships in eve ever bump or push eachother around. It's all an anti-collision system where YOUR OWN ship moves itself out of the way of the other, and their ship does the same. But if my BS/Freighter can move that fast when trying to avoid a collision, then why can't it move that fast when moving around? Fix it so that a ship cannot be bumped off align/away from anything faster than it would have been able to move under its own power. ------------------- blah blah blah, something about my views are mine not my alliance/corp, blah blah blah "There is no such thing as reality, There's only perception" --Don't know, I made it
Major Stormer Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Neveren maybe a small baby whine here.. But, I lost a carrier last week, to my own mistake.. but I was unable to recover because 3 cepters hitting me at 5km.. managed to get me going around 150m/s away from my station.. now i am no rocket scientist.. but it does not make much sence to have a Small ship IE Frig/cruiser... able to Push a Capital ship around.. If anything the smaller ship should bounce off Me, and I remain stationary.. Tho i must admit.. It was a fun 30 min fight while 20 ships pounded on me with 4 carriers trying to kill me down... in the end... Being nossed killed me =( mourn Veldspar Fortress mk2 Dont worry, Xelas HAS A discount after all. Its just a game. Get over yourselfs.
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:50:00 - [8] I'm sorry, but if you remove bumping you would have to add collisions - and you'd regret that, because it would allow using t1 frigates as suicide ships to attack capitals. I'm all for that... are you sure you are?
Aterna Talon's Grasp	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:51:00 - [9] No, undocking a freighter in Jita 4-4 should leave a smoldering path of carnage in the wake of your Obelisk, as your freighter demolishes all ships it plows through. And then you should be able to scoop the remains straight into the hold. Either that, or scoop whatever ships are small enough, straight into your ship, and just fly off with them. - - - WTB new sig, evemail me please.
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:54:00 - [10] Quote: No, undocking a freighter in Jita 4-4 should leave a smoldering path of carnage in the wake of your Obelisk, as your freighter demolishes all ships it plows through. You're absolutely right. The drawback would be that a Crusader moving at 10km/s would probably cut a hole right through the middle of you. I know I'd trade a speed rigged inty for the contents of a freighter any day - it'd breath new life into highsec ganking

Anferney	Posted - 2007.05.31 13:59:00 - [11] Hrmm...have you done the calculations to show that it is unrealistic? I don't have EVE here, so I can't run tests, but just use conservation of momentum to find out if it works out right. You might have to account for relativistic effects of ships going rather fast, as was mentioned so use: p=mv/sqrt(1-(vv)/(c*c)) After carrying that out for the initial momentum, see if it adds up to the final momentum. This should be a trvial calculation since ship masses and the velocities are known in game.
branodn lee Minmatar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:03:00 - [12] bumping is not a exploit but can be harassment.
Shinris	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:07:00 - [13] it is an exploit when it is done to do something that was not suspected to be done by ccp
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:09:00 - [14] CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Lakedaimon Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:09:00 - [15] Quote: According to Einstein, as you accelerate it gets harder and harder, and you have to pump in more and more energy to keep accelerating. The extra energy amazingly is transferred into mass, and so an interceptor travelling at high speed is a lot "heavier" than you would think it to be. Whether 5km/s would make enough of a difference I couldn't say, but the formula is pretty simple: Mass equals energy divided by the square of the speed of light, so m=e/c2 or e=mc2... Work it out and get back to us. I'm intruiged as to whether it actually works out or not :) That effect only becomes noticeable as you get closer to the speed of light. An intie going 5km/s is nowhere close enough to that speed.
branodn lee Minmatar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Shinris it is an exploit when it is done to do something that was not suspected to be done by ccp hahaha thats funny. there are alot of things in this game that are not what ccp ment for them but they are not exploits until the dev's and gm's say so.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:12:00 - [17] Bumping is fine. It should not be removed. It is necessary. The Xelas guy was, like most capital ship pilots, humping a station. Aggressing and being bumped is the only way to lose a carrier (other than dcing) most of the time. I think it should stay as is, its still not easy to do.
Probeltis Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:16:00 - [18] I'm not saying that a Providence should BLOWUP ships when it undocks, just that it should move the other ships off to the side. Kinda like bowling pins. ------------------- blah blah blah, something about my views are mine not my alliance/corp, blah blah blah "There is no such thing as reality, There's only perception" --Don't know, I made it
Jian Gi Caldari Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:21:00 - [19] Guys the speed of light if I remember correctly is 300000 km/sec. Relativistic effects on mass and time become measurable only after 0.6c and more likely around 0.8c. Therefor the discussion about relativity is irrelevant. On the other hand newtonian mechanics (the preservation of momentum specifically) dictate that in any two body collision the body with the less mass is the one that experiences the biggest momentum change ... Physics aside I believe that hull damage would lead to some very unpleasant accidents. It should just be so that as newton said the smaller ship gets bumped back to where it came from ....
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:22:00 - [20] First let me say: Bumping is a ridiculous concept. And please, for the love of god, keep Einstein and relativity out of this, it is completely out of place. (Should ships ever reach 30000 kilometres per second, you might want to factor it in.)

Agent Li	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. Actually, the Titan should receive a few points of damage on the shields, and the interceptor should explode into a moving wreck. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
branodn lee Minmatar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:24:00 - [22] i agree they need to just put a stop to bumping. it will be easy to do. just put it in the game that all ships fly threw each other. problem solved.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. Actually, the Titan should receive a few points of damage on the shields, and the interceptor should explode into a moving wreck. That would cause its own gameplay problems I'd think. Fixing the bumping system without adding damage would solve the gameplay problem currently without adding any new mechanics. --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio!
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:28:00 - [24] Let's assume a Crusader with T2 MWD charging at a stationary Providence freighter: Crusader Mass: 1,050,000 Kg Velocity: 455 1MN MWD (T2) Energy: 50 / 10 secs Max Velocity Bonus: 550% Providence Mass: 1,125,000,000 Kg so: let e be 5 cap/s let m be 1,050,000 let c be 299 792 458 m/s Assuming a straight line course: let v be 2502.5 m/s so to calculate m at mwd speed: m = 5 / 89875517873681764 = 5.56325028026809216087044982424 e-17 or 0.0000000000000000556325 increase for the first second, and a fraction more increasing exponentially as each second passes - which is a pitiful increase in mass. For each second the interceptor spends at maximium warp, it won't even gain anywhere near kilogram in weight and as such would be hard pressed to even achieve the mass to bump a cruiser unless travelling from several hundred thousand kilometres away. Please feel free to correct my math/ridicule me!
Probeltis Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. Actually, the Titan should receive a few points of damage on the shields, and the interceptor should explode into a moving wreck. No damage, the shield on shield acts like a bouncy ball effect and your trajectory gets reversed by a % split betwen both ships inversely proportional to mass. So the smaller ships gets a bounced off hard and the big ships gets a very small push. Equal ships would effect eachother the same amount. ------------------- blah blah blah, something about my views are mine not my alliance/corp, blah blah blah "There is no such thing as reality, There's only perception" --Don't know, I made it
Esau Cairn Bombshell Cartel Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 31/05/2007 13:47:38 According to Einstein, as you accelerate it gets harder and harder, and you have to pump in more and more energy to keep accelerating. The extra energy amazingly is transferred into mass, and so an interceptor travelling at high speed is a lot "heavier" than you would think it to be. Whether 5 km/s would make enough of a difference I couldn't say, but the formula is pretty simple: Umm, relativistic velocities are a lot higher than 5 km/s. A 20 ton ship that accelerates to 5km/s probably has a mass of 20.0000001 tons at that speed. What should be applied, instead of collision damage, is true bounce effects based on mass. A 10 (elastic) ton mass impacting a million ton mass would bounce off at pretty much the same speed it had, in the opposite direction. Imagine a bowling ball and ping-pong ball, both suspended on ropes/strings. Really, the ping-pong ball would have to be going at close to relativistic velocities to make an appreciable impact on the momentum of the bowling ball. I think this would be a welcome change in the physics of the game in the sense that it would be slightly more realistic. (Thinking of all of our ships as being made of the same materials as super-balls is really just an exercise in imagination.) A freighter undocking in Jita would indeed be scattering ships left and right, but it would largely prevent caps and above from being 'bumped' off stations. Unless the bumper was also a (super-)cap. Whether that's an overall improvement in the game, I don't know. But playing with it would be fun for a while. I could imagine a new spectator sport at busy stations. Devs might not want to do it just because it would probably increase the number of people in high-traffic systems.
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:30:00 - [27] If e=mc2 is correct, it is correct and end of story. The changes are just so small at the relatively terrestrial speeds we achieve in Eve they amount to a **** in the ocean.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. Actually, the Titan should receive a few points of damage on the shields, and the interceptor should explode into a moving wreck. That would cause its own gameplay problems I'd think. Fixing the bumping system without adding damage would solve the gameplay problem currently without adding any new mechanics. It would probably encourage kamikaze attacks. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Camilo Cienfuegos Caldari EP0CH	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:33:00 - [29] Quote: Devs might not want to do it just because it would probably increase the number of people in high-traffic systems. Not to mention the awesome speeds that could be attained by pilots of smaller ships. Stuck in a bubble? No problem! Charge yourself at the nearest large vessel and you'll fly out of there at hitherto unknown speeds! It'd be fun... but to be honest, it'd be worse than the current bumping situation.
Igus	Posted - 2007.05.31 14:38:00 - [30] Edited by: Igus on 31/05/2007 14:38:27 Bumping in game is imo just plain stupid. The force exerted on the other ship would have to equal to or greater than the opposing force of the target ship. A small ship could push another larger ship but it would have to be a factor of its size and the velocity it was moving at. But this is ignoring the ability of the smaller ship withstand the blow. A larger ship should be able to push a smaller ship out of the way with out any trouble.



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