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So when does bumping become an Exploit?

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Neveren Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.04 17:13:00 - [91] small update. The regular GM has sent my petition to a Senior GM because he cannot make the call on it being an Exploit. not expecting anything.. just odd that it was passed up the chain if it was a clear cut case STC recruiting!
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.04 17:49:00 - [92] Bumping is an exploit when you are ISD (or not bumping is): "I was floating around in my Polaris frig, watching one of the massive, 270+-in-local battles in the south, GROUP a vs GROUP B, had already destroyed thier second POS in the system....when I 'text-jumped' (using admin "tr/ 'playername' jumpto command) to a certain Dread pilot I knew was in the action. Doing so teleports a polaris frig to that players ship...at 1 FOOT distance. I jumped to this position and immediately orbitted the gaggle of 20 dreads at 80KM, standard operating proceedure for ISD reporters.... A minute later, a guy, of GROUP A, began yelling in local "Hey, Reporter, you bumped our dread!!!" This was a falsehood, since the dread I jumped to was on the outside of the group and I made sure not to do just that. I ignored him. A year and a half of Reportering and you get used to ALL GROUP A members trying to order/bully you around. It is a common practice (WAY TOO GODDAMN COMMON) that ISD members are ordered to completely ignore. Eventually, the guy began giving me DIRECT ORDERS. "You must leave the system. Now. Move, you ***!!" My response? "Um...no?" Their response was pretty indicative of the manner in which GROUP A is used to ordering CCP personnel around...in LOCAL CHANNEL of 250+, The guy replied: "Well, I guess I'll have to call up my friends in CCP and get you dealt with." I was sitting in ISD's IRC channel, as is required anytime you are logged in as an ISD char, and I decided to inform my dept. head of this development. He seemed amused.... Until 40 seconds later.... ISD IRC acounts have a lot of symbols in their usernames. They signify time-in-service, department membership, and other things, but after 40 seconds, a BRAND NEW userID appeared, bereft of any such demarcations or designations...an illegal and brand new ID... "Hey, anyone know some reporter named [Censored]!?" Me:"Um, yeah, that's me." "LEAVE THAT SYSTEM NOW, YOU ARE EMBARRASSING THE ISD AND CCP THE COMPANY!!" Me: ORLY!? My ISD BOSS: 'ORLY!' the next minutes were interesting, as my ISD-IC dept head began briefing me on the minbute-by-minute actions of the internal affairs team (formed after your T-20 revelation I should point out) LEAPED on this matter in seconds. Me: "So I guess a GROUP A director claiming he has CCP buddies at his beck and call, and the fact that said buddy showed up 40 sec later, will raise some heads at CCP?" Boss: "Oh, I think it already has...." Me: "Well, at least something good will come from all this mess..." Boss: "We have his IP address." Boss: "He's posting from CCP, he's Staff." Boss: He's in the QA department...." after long pause* Boss: Well, I'll tell you how this goes tomorrow, take care..." I signed off." I found this post on a off site board an if yer lucky enough to read it b4 it get snipped.... Dont Remember Kugutsumen BoD Rules (Sarsasm - if I put anything else it gets snipped)
Neveren Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.04 20:05:00 - [93] wow STC recruiting!
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.04 20:23:00 - [94] a small ship. any frigate hitting a titan with MWD imagine a bullet hitting a truck. it wont move the truck much. sure it'll punch a hole. but it wont move the truck much __________________________________ need a new sig :(
Rock Raper	Posted - 2007.06.04 21:18:00 - [95] Bumpification
Lab Technician071548 Perkone	Posted - 2007.06.04 22:28:00 - [96] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Lab Technician071548 Taranis Interceptor has mass of 1,075,000. At 5km/s, that's a momentum of 26,875,000,000,000 kilogram-m^s against, say, a thanatos with a V=0 with an inertia = mass of 1,057,500,000kg. The ratio of momentum to inertia is over 25,000:1, so I'm not surprised that an interceptor can push a carrier around. I don't understand. What is the ratio of two different quantities supposed to signify? A fully elastic collistion would transfer 2 times the interceptor's momentum to the carrier. Given an initial speed of 5000 m/s and the carrier having 1000 times the mass of the interceptor, this would amount to a change in velocity of about 10 m/s. (And all these considerations are quite ridiculous. Ramming as a tactic was abandoned when hulls were still made of wood.) So you agree that a taranis can push a carrier. I never commented on other aspects of how bumping is implemented (e.g., the rate at which a much larger, bumped object will travel after said bumping). http://www.koolsource.com/slandark/evelabtech3.jpg signature removed (max size 24000 bytes) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected])
Melkempe	Posted - 2007.06.04 22:37:00 - [97] bumping should be an exploit when they can prove either way. As it stands I could petition any loss saying that bumping was the reason why I died. Also you try killing idiots playing docking games otherwise
Swinton Wolsoncroft Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.04 22:52:00 - [98] ...when it gets you fired. Do not trolls in your sig. -Kaemonn
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.04 22:54:00 - [99] Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP needs to fix bumping so that it is remotely comparable to real physics. If an interceptor sits in front of a Titan, it should not affect the Titan's motion. When the Titan moves forward, it should slam the interceptor away, not spin ridiculously as it stops in its tracks. I honestly don't think you will ever see this changed in EVE. I remember in beta, the DEV's talking about the collision system, it was eventually dropped as it was too difficult for them to figure it out. When I heard we'd be able to fly through planets & stuff, I knew it would be something that would plague this game forever. Go download & try the Infinity Combat Prototype, it has a decent collision system, bumping will not be a problem in Infinity, you'd wreck your ship very quickly... Building the homestead
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.04 22:55:00 - [100] Bumping I don't think should ever be an exploit, but the way it in implemented in the game is broken. The mass of ships and the effect they have on each other is a complete disconnect. An interceptor should just bounce off of a carrier and have zero effect on the carrier. It's a bit ********. --------------

JA RULER Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:28:00 - [101] CCP should nerf bumping or at least give the bumper structure damage which wil be in keeping with logical game mechanics. We had the same happen to us a few months back. drones and ships would bump our carrier from stn just so they can kill it. its lame and it should not happen. its just plain wrong that a drone/frig can bump into an object 100 times the size and move it without suffering damage. Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected]) The sig was awesome though. -Oiri
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:54:00 - [102] Edited by: Capt Rob on 05/06/2007 00:58:03 as i was at the event nev was describing, hes not rly telling it right. We had a good 5-10 ppl bumping him ranging from cruisers-bs's and that only got him going at around 100m/s.\ In my opinion bumping adds a fun tactic to eve and if it were to be removed thats just another way for people to only fight when they want to, which we dont want ppl? do we?!Also, i frankly dont see why a viable tactic that every one can do, should be gotten rid of because it caused your death. People shooting causes your death, lets make that an exploit
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 00:57:00 - [103] Originally by: E Vile The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. It's like a fly hitting a cars windshield and knocking the car into a ditch. Make it like what would really happen to a fly hitting a cars windshield. Splat. Ad some realism to the mechanics in regards to size of ships. I agree. And it's not like they couldn't figure it out. The ships already have mass. Put in a formula to calculate the impact energies and base the rebound on comparative mass ratios. Phoenix Logistics Industries
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:00:00 - [104] Edited by: Capt Rob on 05/06/2007 01:00:36 Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron Originally by: E Vile The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. It's like a fly hitting a cars windshield and knocking the car into a ditch. Make it like what would really happen to a fly hitting a cars windshield. Splat. Ad some realism to the mechanics in regards to size of ships. I agree. And it's not like they couldn't figure it out. The ships already have mass. Put in a formula to calculate the impact energies and base the rebound on comparative mass ratios. no offense mate, but were playing a game about different races of people flying around in space in starships, killing each other. sound like eve is all that realistic?
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:03:00 - [105] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 31/05/2007 13:47:38 Provided you accept that collisions are impossible (they are in the eve universe, so we shall for the sake of this argument) the theory behind bumping is sound, although I'm not sure about the exact figures. According to Einstein, as you accelerate it gets harder and harder, and you have to pump in more and more energy to keep accelerating. The extra energy amazingly is transferred into mass, and so an interceptor travelling at high speed is a lot "heavier" than you would think it to be. Whether 5km/s would make enough of a difference I couldn't say, but the formula is pretty simple: Mass equals energy divided by the square of the speed of light, so m=e/c2 or e=mc2... Work it out and get back to us. I'm intruiged as to whether it actually works out or not :) Relativistic effects with mass/energy are not significant in the collisions in the Eve universe where top speeds in Nano-phoons (since nerfed) didn't even get past 1/100th the speed of light. Phoenix Logistics Industries
Gamesguy Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.05 01:25:00 - [106] I'm sick of people saying inties can bump carriers. Its extremely difficult to bump a capital ship with a sub-capital. Pre-nano nerf I used to use my nanophoon to bump carriers all the time. Most of the time I would ram into the carrier at 5km/s and come to a stop, then literally phase through it. A good bump got it start moving at like 10 m/s or something. You need multiple ships with lots of mass to continuously hit the capital ship in the same direction to keep the momentum going. Its not as easy as a couple of inties ramming into it over and over again.
Shohadaku	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:20:00 - [107] Edited by: Shohadaku on 05/06/2007 11:23:00 Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 31/05/2007 13:47:38 Provided you accept that collisions are impossible (they are in the eve universe, so we shall for the sake of this argument) the theory behind bumping is sound, although I'm not sure about the exact figures. According to Einstein, as you accelerate it gets harder and harder, and you have to pump in more and more energy to keep accelerating. The extra energy amazingly is transferred into mass, and so an interceptor travelling at high speed is a lot "heavier" than you would think it to be. Whether 5km/s would make enough of a difference I couldn't say, but the formula is pretty simple: Mass equals energy divided by the square of the speed of light, so m=e/c2 or e=mc2... Work it out and get back to us. I'm intruiged as to whether it actually works out or not :) I don't care how much energy is pushing a tiny ship. If it contacts a very large ship it, not going to do anything but splatter or bounce off that larger structure unless it is such a massive force (like warp) that it does damage. It still however would not move the massive structure. Just for example like my next post states. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Shohadaku	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:22:00 - [108] Originally by: Freya Runestone a small ship. any frigate hitting a titan with MWD imagine a bullet hitting a truck. it wont move the truck much. sure it'll punch a hole. but it wont move the truck much Or in another example-A bullet hitting a Tank. It's going to bounce off destroying the structure of the bullet. In both cases that small object is going to be destroyed and not move the large object. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering." Shohadaku New York Metal
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:45:00 - [109] Originally by: Aterna No, undocking a freighter in Jita 4-4 should leave a smoldering path of carnage in the wake of your Obelisk, as your freighter demolishes all ships it plows through. /signed
uniquenames	Posted - 2007.10.25 08:33:00 - [110] Ok, the bullet hitting the tank analogy does not work, because the tank is on the ground. If it were in 0g vaccum, it would move (a little). I see two reasonable solutions. 1: We keep the perfectly elastic collisions, but make correct allowances for the masses of the ships concerned. A frigate should not be able to significantly move a carrier at the speeds the game permits. If the max speed was removed and you had 1000km to accelerate at it, then maybe 2: Keep the elastic bouncing, up to a point. Lets say each ships have a "collision prevention force field thingy" that causes the elastic bouncing. If the force of the collision exceeds the power of the force field, then an actual damage dealing collision occurs. Logically, big ships would have stronger fields than little ones. Whis way, a carrier can undock without crushing everyone, but can manually turn off it's field in order to splat any frigates that try to ram it. I like idea 2. I think it would add an interesting dynamic to pvp.

Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.10.25 09:00:00 - [111] Bumping should never be classed an exploit, if only because it would be impossible to police and adjudicate. However the current mechanic is totally, TOTALLY fubar. If you're gonna have collision in EVE then it needs to have some vague semblance of physics applied to it. Simple inertia calculations based on mass and speed are a bare minimum requisite IMO. Without those then collisions should just be removed totally from the game. I'd prefer to have a damage model in place too. A frigate-sized ship slamming into a capship at 4km/s should simply evaporate, maybe making a small dent in the hull of the capship.
Cruel Fox Singulerity Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.25 09:06:00 - [112] Originally by: E Vile The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. It's like a fly hitting a cars windshield and knocking the car into a ditch. Make it like what would really happen to a fly hitting a cars windshield. Splat. Ad some realism to the mechanics in regards to size of ships. /signed not mentioning that pod can prevent MS to warp away
Gadiantton	Posted - 2007.10.25 09:14:00 - [113] I agree with E Vile ships should take damage when bumping.... and since shields are made of energy... then the "bump" should dmg the armor & then after armor is gone... structure dmg should occur until... pop! this is the way they had it on Freelancer ... which seamed far more reaslistic... then the bump-bump-bump that goes on in EVE... it would make the game more interesting at least.
NeverL Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.25 09:45:00 - [114] god damn, bumping is the only way to kill those t***s who undock in a carrier and think they are brave. ----------------- My dream is to become the best forum warrior there is. Even better then Molle Sir.
Kenneys RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 09:51:00 - [115] Here's some simple physics.. M1V1=M2V2 Where M1 = mass of first object, V1 = velocity of first object M2V2 refers to the second objects. Example: We have an interceptor, going 5 km/s with a mass of 1X10^6 KG It hits a stationary carrier, with a mass of 1x10^9 KG As a result, the carrier moves 0.005 KM/S. AKA: 5 M/S Unfortunately in Eve, pretty much every calculation from missiles, turrets, ships, collision, acceleration, fuel, is unrealistic. Some people argue that it is unrealistic for the sake of game balance. I say it's unrealistic because of bad implementation.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.25 10:50:00 - [116] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 25/10/2007 10:51:05 I guess you have to say these things: Ahaha, spot the gatecampers/griefers against bumping nerf! Every single one of the gatecampers/griefers say the same thing when tables are turned. When the bumping nerf DOES come(any DEV with half a brain knows it's a problem, not a "legitimate tactic"), we can tell all the "cry" pirates that hello kitty is --> that way too. So, now that we got that out of the way, YES, collision models. Would be fun, though dangerous, but they should be! The anti-collision things should be a lot further away, say 4km max range. And only work on the ship moving towards another. But, if that system is offline.... Frigate hits a cruiser head on, smaller amount of shield+armor+structure ship gets destroyed, the other ship takes an appropriate damage(- ofcourse resistances, kinetic damage i believe) for the amount of the other ships structure/shield/armor/whatnot. Makes suiciding like this not a viable option, deters from just blowing through frigates with a cruiser and makes for a tactical element in battle. Oh AND, noone cares about physics, it's not some NASA project in here, it's a rather interestingly, long living grief tactic, and i for one would shun anyone who uses it. If you can't win without such childish tactics, don't fight. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.25 11:12:00 - [117] Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 25/10/2007 11:14:00 Originally by: E Vile The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. like everything else in EVE? or maybe explain to me why a PROJECTILE BULLET in space (and against a static structure) is dependand on RANGE? there are no air resiatances in space. if you move something, it will move FOREVER (unless it crashes into something, hehe) and at the same speed it was projected. or why battleships have to nearly turn upside down when they change route 180¦? i mean, it's space, who cares if you are upside down or not? or explain to me why a BIG DRONE uses more bandwidth than a SMALL one, when the "cpu/brain/whatever" is the same, just the hull and guns are different? EDIT: actually if ships would take serious damage from collision vs other players, that would end the bumping pretty fast... and breed a new sort of griefers that let their BS hug a stations undock point, so all the smaller ships crash on em ;) fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.10.25 11:20:00 - [118] Saying that bumping should stay in 'cause undocking is a broken feature isn't helping the game any. Fix undocking and bumping both, there's been a freighterload of suggestions to select from in the past, it can't be that hard to program. Also Known As
Jintau Kawazoe Isonami Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.25 11:52:00 - [119] Originally by: E Vile The whole bumping mechanic is pathetically unrealistic. It's like a fly hitting a cars windshield and knocking the car into a ditch. Make it like what would really happen to a fly hitting a cars windshield. Splat. Ad some realism to the mechanics in regards to size of ships. Seconded. It is absurd. Isonami Syndicate Recruitment
Ter Fordal	Posted - 2007.10.25 12:04:00 - [120] Physics teacher mode on: Originally by: Kenneys Here's some simple physics.. M1V1=M2V2 Where M1 = mass of first object, V1 = velocity of first object M2V2 refers to the second objects. Example: We have an interceptor, going 5 km/s with a mass of 1X10^6 KG It hits a stationary carrier, with a mass of 1x10^9 KG As a result, the carrier moves 0.005 KM/S. AKA: 5 M/S Unfortunately in Eve, pretty much every calculation from missiles, turrets, ships, collision, acceleration, fuel, is unrealistic. Some people argue that it is unrealistic for the sake of game balance. I say it's unrealistic because of bad implementation. A nice try but you have actually calculated the results of an explosion with your formula. In an explosion the objects will move apart with equal and opposite momentums as you have calculated. However, in the case of a moving object impacting a stationary object elastically (which is must be since no damage or energy is obsorbed by either ship) we must make sure the total system momentum and energy remain constant. Thus: m1u = m1v1 + m2v2 and 1/2.m1.u^2 = 1/2.m1.v1^2 + 1/2.m2.v2^2 and after some tedious manipulation (complete for homework) we get: v2 = 2 u / (1 + m2/m1) So if the rammer is much more massive than the rammee (i.e BS rams a frigate) the frigate will move off at approximately twice the ramming speed. If they are the same mass, the rammed ship will move off at the same speed it was rammed at. A ship ramming one ten times more massive will impart 2/11 of its speed, one 100 times more massive will impart 2/101 and so on. So a carrier is 1 thousand times more massive, which means when rammed at a 5km/s interceptor it should realistically move at 5x2/1001 = 9.99 m/s. Note this is all assuming head on collisions. If the rammer strikes a glancing blow to the surface of the stationary ship at an angle of theta to the vertical then reduce the calculated velocity by a factor of cos(theta). Physics teacher mode off. lol, u suck uz cant even work out 1d elastic collisions man.



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