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WARNING -Threat of the EvE Strategic Map Book to EvE

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Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:22:00 - [1] I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase. Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game. Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?) So what up with the exception?? Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts. The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed. Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without. CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel. Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it?? WHY? That of all things should be free. If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE. Not the right direction in my opinion. Thoughts?
PostWithYourMain Main Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:23:00 - [2] Nobody would pay money for it, case closed.
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:24:00 - [3] Im fine with it. Im sure its not a for profit thing. Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:25:00 - [4] Paying for a physical book? I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit. --23 Member--
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:28:00 - [5] Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed. It not the book thats the issue. It's the fact that CCP is allowing a independent party to charge for EvE related third party products. Once that happens, how much longer do you thing EvE Mon would be free? Or any of the other popular tools?
Kvarium Ki legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Kvarium Ki on 05/06/2007 02:29:17 Nothing wrong with that at all, I wish him the best of luck and I hope more people come up with interesting products based on EVE. KK. Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it.
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:30:00 - [7] I should really plug my Eve-chess set, but there are no plans to sell any of it. Altho :D if your going to Penny Arcade Expo this year, you might see some of it. Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Dark Shikari Paying for a physical book? I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit. Serenity Steele could supply the book for free via PDF and allow us to print it ourselves should be an option. It isn't. This is a money making enterprise for Serenity Steele and should NEVER be allowed by CCP.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Dark Shikari Paying for a physical book? I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit. Serenity Steele could supply the book for free via PDF and allow us to print it ourselves should be an option. It isn't. This is a money making enterprise for Serenity Steele and should NEVER be allowed by CCP. And I could buy it and upload scanlations for everyone to download. --23 Member--
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Kvarium Ki Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it. The creators of EvEMon only have a product because of the intelectual property of CCP. They use CCP resources and put load on the servers. If they started to charge for their service it would be tatamount to stealing. Unless of course they 'negotiate' with CCP to charge us for it and give CCP a slice of the action as compensation. How would you like that?
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:47:00 - [11] It's no different from a third party releasing a strategy guide from a game or paying to using concepts or art belonging to a company. Licensing IP is a very good source of income, which means more money for salaries and future games. Players are not required to purchase the books and those who do purchase do not really gain an edge over those who do not purchase. Ombey offers a free alternative. I think the book shows good business initiative and I would expect nothing less from Serenity. Sales: Capital Ships \| Covetors Delivered - Bulk/Package/BYOM
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Erfnam It's no different from a third party releasing a strategy guide from a game or paying to using concepts or art belonging to a company. Licensing IP is a very good source of income, which means more money for salaries and future games. Players are not required to purchase the books and those who do purchase do not really gain an edge over those who do not purchase. Ombey offers a free alternative. I think the book shows good business initiative and I would expect nothing less from Serenity. I knew someone would present this arguement. So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that? Intelectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so. Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information? Business initative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools. Shame on CCP for allowing this to go ahead.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 02:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Says who? Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me? --23 Member--
xxShadexx Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:00:00 - [14] Then dont buy it... Case concluded? ----------------------------------------- I wish I could change my name...
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:01:00 - [15] CCP have a licensing policy you know so CCP would more than likely make some money from being able to sell a map book, as was pointed out he's going to go through the hassle of printing it up and having a stock of them to sell and its not mandatory to buy one nor will you lose out by not buying it, either give us the real reason you're annoyed (He beat you to it sucks to be second best i know but it happens) or give it a rest. ---------
Hajyt Caldari EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:02:00 - [16] If it's all digital, nobody will pay for it. If it's an actual printed book, then...what is so wrong with that? Diehard Eve fans would probably enjoy it. CCP isn't making you buy this book, and if you don't want too...then...don't. Not seeing a problem here.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Says who? Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me? At the moment CCP. Read their EULA. B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Says who? Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me? At the moment CCP. Read their EULA. B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. Hence the reason he's negotiating with CCP the producers of said game and owners of said EULA, if CCP say yes then thats different but that EULA section just say's you can't do it without permission. ---------
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Cypherous Hence the reason he's negotiating with CCP the producers of said game and owners of said EULA, if CCP say yes then thats different but that EULA section just say's you can't do it without permission. Too fast for my edit. That's what I am upset about. CCP is condoning this for one special person while preventing everyone else. Once the genie is out of the bottle we will see all the other creators asking "why cabn't I get paid". CCP will probably say yes to them and the EvE community will end up paying for everything which is currently free now. THAT is the threat to the EvE community.
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed. It not the book thats the issue. It's the fact that CCP is allowing a independent party to charge for EvE related third party products. Once that happens, how much longer do you thing EvE Mon would be free? Or any of the other popular tools? You do realize that CCP pays third parties for stuff like oh ... publishing EON magazine or their posters or the other stuff in their stores? Bunch of bloody negative nancys around here I swear. If CCP says its fine then there is no problem. Their EULA says different? Guess what, they wrote the damn thing and can change if should they feel the desire to do so. Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly CCP will probably say yes to them and the EvE community will end up paying for everything which is currently free now. THAT is the threat to the EvE community. Its not a threat, if you want to use something someone else spent time making then pay for it, if you don't want to pay you don't have to use it, many thinks will remain free but for things like this book i support the idea considering it would be a physical book that might potentially be one of the surviving records of what EVE was like should it ever fail and personally i think thats a good idea. ---------
Gerard Deneth Caldari Drake's Drummers	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that? If you talked to everyone whom you culled the information from, then yeah, I'd be alright with that. If you too my concepts and words and used them without permission, then no. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Intellectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so. Seeing as how how he's negotiating with the IP holders for permission of this sale, he's quite in the green to do this. I can't see how he's using this forum to acquire information, however. Unless you're implying that this forum is the only place one can find the location of 4/10 Guaristas complexes... Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information? Business initiative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools. Nobody's allowed to RELEASE their products WITHOUT consent of the IP holder. They could design something for their own personal use and probably get away with it, but as soon as they begin releasing it out there, they WILL get into crap for IP violations. Next off, while his information is, at a core, information available in-game, it is NOT easily accessible or referencable in game. Can you tell me the nearest losec system from Ruvas, or where some of the better bottlenecks are in Lonetrek? not at a glance I'll bet. But maps do this quite nicely. In short, Steele has perceived a 'need', put in the effort to create a product and gotten the permission to sell it. If there is an actual need for the item, then it will sell, and those who have it will make use of it. Or just have it on their coffee table looking cool. As well, last I checked it isn't -essential- for everyone to have this. For most people, their own knowledge and the EVE in game map work quite nicely. They may even have more detailed, annotated maps.
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:23:00 - [23] I'm not sure what you are worried about. This product has a very limited chance of success as it stands right now. The only folks who may even think about buying it would be; 1. Those folks who want a hardcopy and do not have a printer. 2. Newbies who don't now about all the good free resources available. For this product to succeed they would need to get everyone to delete their copy of Omby's 2d map pdf, either payoff Chirba to stop hosting the file or payoff Omby to pull his free version off the net. Both of which will cut into their profits for something that may never sell at all. And assumming it does sell what is to stop CCP from buying the rights to the book and selling it themselves. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
Sazumaan Johnza Minmatar Skill Level Six Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:23:00 - [24] This is not a threat on the basis that not all 3rd party products lend themselves to such a strategy. Example EveMon, produced by a number of different contributors on an opensource framework. They may never wish to charge for it as it goes against the spirit of the work. But perhaps one day they will...and see the number of people using it drop dramatically. Who knows. But what have you done to help the EveMon programmers..? They have spent many long nights coding, testing, releasing...months of effort. For free, which is entirely their choice. Have you put in an equivalent effort for the community? I have absolutely no problem with Serenity's efforts being rewarded financially. And to all those who think you can do it better...please by all means challenge Serenity. Such competition will ensure v2 is better in quality and possibly price, too. "Eve is more filling than roast steaks slowly grilling over a rotating fire whilst marinating in a combination of Australian fruity wines and the best imported herbs..." - SChimera [16.4.07]
Kvarium Ki legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Kvarium Ki Edit. So what if EVEMon goes pay to use? People work on this, they deserve compensation if there is a market for there product. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it. The creators of EvEMon only have a product because of the intelectual property of CCP. They use CCP resources and put load on the servers. If they started to charge for their service it would be tatamount to stealing. Unless of course they 'negotiate' with CCP to charge us for it and give CCP a slice of the action as compensation. How would you like that? I got no problem with that, it's called free enteprise. If EVEMon goes pay to use I guess YOU could make a free one and give it to everyone. KK.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Cypherous if you want to use something someone else spent time making then pay for it, That's not how online game communities operate. Many tools have been produced over the years for EvE by many talented and creative people. CCP made it clear to them in order for them to do so they are forbidden to charge for their efforts. They went ahead anyway. Why? Ask them but I'd suggest they enjoyed it and the kudos that went with it. CCP protected their intelectual property and the community from professional sharks by preventing their IP from being exploited. (And the customer from being exploited for that matter.) What's to stop this Serenity from taking pre-orders for books raking in the cash and claiming company failure?? Nothing. As a independent third party Serenity has no affiliation to CCP and accordingly, CCP customers are exposed to his potential risk. No. It is clear that making ANY third partys tools subject to a fee utilising EvE intelectual property is plain dangerous for us the customers.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:31:00 - [27] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:30:23 Originally by: Orvas Dren Ever consider that he may or may not be in talks with them to have them publish and sell the book while he takes a portions of the profits for his part in its creation? That would be perfectly legal under the EULA. And I'd have no problem with that either. However if you read his post that is not his intent or plans. His plans: He prints and supplies it. No free version. You pay. You may or may not recieve a copy CCP denines to get involved as you delt with a third party He buys a car Greater EvE community suffers. (Some of this is spectulative)
Svengali MASS	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:38:00 - [28] Good for him (not the trolling bits about not shipping; the real product bits). I anxiously await your free replacement. -- Svengali
Approbation	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:42:00 - [29] Wiggly-Wuggly, I think you are being dramatic and paranoid. Your fears are not born out by the wider software community. Free as in Beer is typical in the software world. Advice to you Wuggly-Jugglies: Let him publish his book. Calm down. Don't buy a copy.
Luigi Thirty Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:43:00 - [30] Eve over, map = very yes ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:((((
LinBadar Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:44:00 - [31] Just sounds to me that someone is vexed and forced to vent because they didn't think of it first....
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase. Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game. Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?) So what up with the exception?? Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts. The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed. Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without. CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel. Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it?? WHY? That of all things should be free. If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE. Not the right direction in my opinion. Thoughts? QFT!!!! Make Mining Better
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:46:00 - [33] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54 Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping Do you deny this is risk to consider? Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different? CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this. Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:51:00 - [34] What a lot of panic for nothing. If you like a 2D free version just go to: http://www.ombeve.co.uk/ They are most complete. I use these at the moment as eve's internal map seriously sucks when planning trade routes or just navigating. But they are very hard to read when printed on my Laserjet. http://www.eve-maps.com/ These maps look much better -- and I'd be happy to have a ring binder with them on my desk. Its a luxury item, not a necessity. If Serenity earns a buck for his hard work and up front risk in printing these I don't mind. He has to split this with CCP as its their IP he is using. And the argument about being cheated -- well that only works once. That's why we have these forums. For balanced and informed discussions.
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces. There already is a free version available Ombey's 2d Maps ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:58:00 - [36] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:57:07 Originally by: Mysticaa Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces. There already is a free version available Ombey's 2d Maps How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his? I am not concerned about Serenitys product so much as I am concerned about the state of future development of third party tools / services. Once one gets paid for their efforts... everyone derserves to get paid. Thats fair. But we the community loses if that happens.
Approbation	Posted - 2007.06.05 03:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54 Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping Do you deny this is risk to consider? Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different? CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this. Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Plenty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces. I think blanket rules are greatly destructive. CCP should reserve the right to allow whomever they see fit to market EVE related products. That way they can manage the balance between providing third party products to the eve community and not creating this double-tier of users that-have and users that have-not. Reality is if you provide financial incentive to the community things will be made that may not have otherwise been made. There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them. This situation is also illustrated in the free software community. I think it should be up to CCP to manage this balance rather than giving a flat out no to any potential product manufacturer. EVE itself after all is designed to mimic a realistic economy (this is not a comment on the success of that facsimile!). What you promote is not in the spirit of EVE itself.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:01:00 - [38] Originally by: Approbation There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them. Like cash for ISK for example. Just because their is a market for it doesn't mean that it is a good thing.
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:04:00 - [39] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his? And how many copies do you think will get sold when a free one is available? From a buisness stand point this venture has very little chance of succeeding so why worry about it? ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
Approbation	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:05:00 - [40] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Approbation There are still many EVE users who enjoy boutique products and would pay for them. Like cash for ISK for example. Just because their is a market for it doesn't mean that it is a good thing. You are either being disingenuous or ignorant. I would look up what Boutique means in regards to commercial exercises. ISK farming is more akin to the actions of Nike, Ford, Monsanto etc, rather than traditional Boutique commerce. Think limited stock high quality luxury items.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:17:00 - [41] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 04:17:59 Originally by: Approbation You are either being disingenuous or ignorant. And I think you are totally missing the point. Getting paid for third party products either as mass market or boutique products is against the EULA except as we now see for Serenity. Nobody else is currently allowed to sell third party EvE related products. NOBODY. What Serenity is doing is making a new standard. Even if he sells none it opens the door for all the other suppliers to 'negotiate' with CCP to tack on a charge for their products / services. Everything that once was free may become 'pay for access'. I for one do not want to see that happen to EvE.
Approbation	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:21:00 - [42] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 04:17:59 Originally by: Approbation You are either being disingenuous or ignorant. And I think you are totally missing the point. Getting paid for third party products either as mass market or boutique products is against the EULA except as we now see for Serenity. Nobody else is currently allowed to sell third party EvE related products. NOBODY. What Serenity is doing is making a new standard. Even if he sells none it opens the door for all the other suppliers to 'negotiate' with CCP to tack on a charge for their products / services. Everything that once was free may become 'pay for access'. I for one do not want to see that happen to EvE. You are now repeating old conversation. I already addressed this, as did others. I do not see how one can miss a point already addressed.
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:28:00 - [43] Do some reading on fair use doctrine, transformative works, and non-sustantial reproduction. I think a case could be made that he can make whatever map books he wants without any sort of official licensing. That's not to say he wouldn't be sued and fail to defend himself, but it seems me that he's covered. If you don't like the fact that his information rich form of maps are only available for a fee, produce your own work and make it available at no cost. No one is stopping you.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:34:00 - [44] Originally by: Approbation I do not see Clearly. You say you you want CCP to manage the balance between providing third party products to the eve community and not creating this double-tier of users that-have and users that have-not. You support the development of products that only the limited few would want / can afford. How on gods green earth would this NOT create a tiered userbase?? You contradict yourself with the same breath! CCP has a management system in place to take care of this already. It is the EULA stating you can not SELL anything related to EVE online, in forums etc. Thats what keep a everyone equal and on the same footing. You want limited development of tools of the excelusive few that would / can afford to pay for them. I assure you CCP would NOT want a segment of the userbase to have that advantage over the others. This is why I am shocked they are considering this 'proposal' of Serenity. All I ask them to do is for CCP to uphold the EULA that binds us all as equals in this game. No special treatment for individuals no matter how hard they 'work' for the game. pleanty of others have sacrificed their time effort and energy without demanding compensation. What makes Serenity, or this product so special?
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 04:36:00 - [45] Originally by: BubbaZanetti Do some reading on fair use doctrine, transformative works, and non-sustantial reproduction. I think a case could be made that he can make whatever map books he wants without any sort of official licensing. That's not to say he wouldn't be sued and fail to defend himself, but it seems me that he's covered. He's welcome to try that. I am more concerned that CCP may give this the stamp of approval including the 'cost to aquire' aspect.
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Mithrandir TFC on 05/06/2007 04:59:42 the difference between that and a prima strategy guide? don't see any. And don't see any problem with it And i dont see them saying YOU HAVE TO BUY IT. give it a rest.
Lowanaera Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:06:00 - [47] I'm going to assume, as I sit here laughing, that those of you freaking out about this are completely unfamiliar with a minor site called Allakhazam, with premium services related to a little-known game called Everquest, from oh say, 8 years ago. Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:13:00 - [48] Apparently someone never heard of the Prima Games guide that streeted with EVE. I've got a copy. It had 2d maps of lowsec / 0-sec constellations. I wonder why you're crying now, instead of 4 years ago? It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans?
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:14:00 - [49] Originally by: Lowanaera Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics. It is for EvE. In fact it has been specifically written into the EULA that it is NOT acceptable conduct. It has been treated in the past as on par with paying for ISK. Just because I or YOU do not pay for ISK doesn't make it appropriate to allow others to do it. I see this endevour equally as destructive on this community.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:17:00 - [50] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Lowanaera Paying for the time and effort someone else has taken to compile information about a game is not exactly revolutionary new ground worthy of sky-is-falling dramatics. It is for EvE. In fact it has been specifically written into the EULA that it is NOT acceptable conduct. It has been treated in the past as on par with paying for ISK. Just because I or YOU do not pay for ISK doesn't make it appropriate to allow others to do it. I see this endevour equally as destructive on this community. Again, but when Prima Games did it, it was perfectly fine? One set of conduct for corporate partners, another for entrepreneurs? You sure you're not a lawyer for Miriam Webster?
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:20:00 - [51] Originally by: Amarria Black It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans? It is NOT the product, or individual that is in question. It is the endorsement of CCP to allow an individual to get paid for use of their intelectual property to the detrement of the greater community. Do you WANT third party products to be 'pay for use'? Do you want there to be two types of players in EvE? Those that can afford all the optional extra and those that can not? If your answer is yes, then you also should support ISK for cash, macro mining and leveling services because it's the exact same arguement. CCP originally didn't want ANY third party products to capitalise on their intelectual property finacially. I see no reason to change this.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Amarria Black Again, but when Prima Games did it, it was perfectly fine? I never said that it was. And I am pretty sure it wasn't alright with CCP either at the time. Prima Games have a history of producing unofficial books. CCP could have taken them to court for damages for all I know. I am more concerned about CCP supposed approval for this particular project as it is the first of it's kind with CCPs approval which directly contravenes their EULA whihc effects us all. Except of course... now Serenity.
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Amarria Black It's perfectly fine when a large corporate entity makes a ridiculously poorly researched guide, but when a single enterprising individual puts in the time and effort to present information in a meaningful manner, and offers updates to said information, it's shennanigans? It is NOT the product, or individual that is in question. It is the endorsement of CCP to allow an individual to get paid for use of their intelectual property to the detrement of the greater community. Do you WANT third party products to be 'pay for use'? Do you want there to be two types of players in EvE? Those that can afford all the optional extra and those that can not? If your answer is yes, then you also should support ISK for cash, macro mining and leveling services because it's the exact same arguement. CCP originally didn't want ANY third party products to capitalise on their intelectual property finacially. I see no reason to change this. Get over it. Who cares. No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense??????
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Mithrandir TFC Get over it. Who cares. No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense?????? Buying ISK. Why do we care so much about it? You can go out and earn it yourself. You don't have to buy it if you dont want to. it's based on choice right? So in your mind that is ok? Personally I do not beleive that items, charactors, ISK or anything that come from in game should be sold for cash. There is no difference to buying in game information or ISK for cash in my opinion. Both can be obtained in game by users. CCP is considering allowing one to be sold for a profit, but not the other. This I feel is the WRONG direction for CCP to take.
FuriousMallard Amarr Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:41:00 - [55] If you don't want to support something like this, don't buy the book. If EVEMon creators or owners of any other tool, site, or resource cut their own deals with CCP and start charging, DON'T BUY THEM. None of these are critical for game play (just handy or luxuries), and better yet, you are perfectly free to create your own free versions of EveMon, maps, whatever and share those with the rest of the community. And drop the EULA argument. It is CCP's EULA, not a binding reciprocal contract. They can get drunk tonight and change it to say that any characters created with rhyming names (e.g., say, Wiggly Jiggly) are in violation, and that's fine. Dumb maybe, but hey, this is CCP's EULA, CCP's IP, CCP's revenue stream, and CCP's game. Period. Seriously, what is so hard to understand here? Did you push for a similar deal with CCP and get beat out by Serenity? ---------------- I quack in your general direction.
Johnathan Roark Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:44:00 - [56] I see nothing wrong this. If the price is right and its a well done product, I even intend to purchase at least one. I seriously do not think CCP would let him print it without receiving a portion of the profits for there IP. How about that magazine called EON? Its made by a third party mmmpublishing which CCP receives a portion of the profits from. Corporation Management Improvement
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Mithrandir TFC Get over it. Who cares. No one said you have to buy it. Its based on choice. You can gain the same advantage by doing it your self if you dont feel its right. And how does it have anything to do with buying isk? You dont make any sense?????? Buying ISK. Why do we care so much about it? You can go out and earn it yourself. You don't have to buy it if you dont want to. it's based on choice right? So in your mind that is ok? Personally I do not beleive that items, charactors, ISK or anything that come from in game should be sold for cash. There is no difference to buying in game information or ISK for cash in my opinion. Both can be obtained in game by users. CCP is considering allowing one to be sold for a profit, but not the other. This I feel is the WRONG direction for CCP to take. and were argueing on somthing that can never be one, because again, due to personal opinion. maybe we should switch it to if abortions right or not if we want to keep argueing
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:51:00 - [58] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 05:50:53 Originally by: FuriousMallard None of these are critical for game play (just handy or luxuries) I think if you read the other thread on that you will find there is a tactical advantage afforded to those with the book, over those without. However minor, utilising this book provides an advantage to those who can afford to purchase it. If this gets approved by CCP ultimately there will be a two tier playerbase. Those with optional (pay only) extras and those without. You happy with that? It is not the book that I am against. It is the direction this decision presents for third party tools / services.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:57:00 - [59] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 05:59:19 the outrage! we should hate all those third party companies that put together the strategy/tips and tricks guides games too! also those third party companies providing gtc's and paybycash and our isp's for making us pay to use eve as well, how dare they profit from eves greatness! /sarcasm Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 05:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Thats what I am upset about. CCP is condoning this for one special person while preventing everyone else. Once the genie is out of the bottle we will see all the other creators asking "why cabn't I get paid". CCP is not condoning it for "one special person". They are negotiating with a person who wants to produce a book. Doubtless Serenity will either pay CCP a flat fee for the license to do so or a portion of the profits (or both). CCP wins because they get money with little risk and effort for themselves. Serenity is taking a larger risk by putting time and resources into it. Unless the agreement Serenity reaches with CCP is an exclusive deal there is no reason you could not approach CCP and say you want to make a map book. If they think your product looks better or will be more profitable they'd probably be happy to come to an arrangement with you. There is nothing "special" about what Serenity is doing. It is nothing more than a business proposition and one anyone with a bright idea could attempt. As for the people who create EVEMon and such frankly they probably do deserve some money. Afterall those products are useful and represent a fair bit of work from the creators. Usually the people who create those tools start doing so for their own use. Then they figure it's pretty cool and offer it to the community for free (few would risk dropping money on it till it is well known and shown to be good). For this they gain the admiration of the community which is not bad (IIRC Winterblink mentioned he has been let go at gate camps before because of his cartoon). Some others request ISK donations in game so they sorta get paid that way (you'd have to ask them if they get much this way...I have no clue). If they asked for cash I suspect they'd have to make an arrangement with CCP. There is nothing wrong with any of the above. Player created tools and content are awesome and common in the gaming community and I bet (barring stuff like macros) the Devs love it. They make the game better overall which is work CCP did not have to do. If someone wants to make hard copy books (which obviosuly must come with a charge...not cheap to produce) and gets the ok from CCP no big deal. As others have mentioned no one is making you buy it and free resources exist that do much the same thing.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:05:00 - [61] Wiggly, you are being an idiot. There are NO mainstream games that don't have strategy guides, map books, "the secrets of", etc books printed for them. The EULA in ALL those games says you can't do it, EXCEPT FOR WITH PERMISSION. The fact that CCP is looking at giving Serenity permission is a great thing; it means they are looking with favor to the community and giving members of IT a chance to help EvE grow. They could have just had the WW division do it. And this WILL help EvE grow. Official strategy guides, Map books and the like showing up on Amazon and in your local book stores gives a feeling that EvE is mainstream and will bring more players in. It makes EvE more legitimate in the eyes of buyers and will help it grow. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:05:00 - [62] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 06:04:39 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h There is nothing wrong with any of the above. I am afraid there is. I have said it 100 times. I have nothing against the book or third party tools at all. You are right that the creators of EvEMon probably deserve to get paid for their efforts but have in the past been restricted from doing so because of the EULA. What Serenity is doing is circumventing the EULA and garnering special treatment from CCP that is currently not afforded all those other creative and enterprising individuals. So in fairness to all those that have developed FREE third party sites, guides, programs tools and such they too deserve some form of compensation if Serenity is allowed to get away with making a profit off his work. That's fair right? I ask you... what is a better world for the EVE community? One where everything third party has a price attached to it, or one (like it is now) where everythign avaliable is free?
Kame Tao	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:06:00 - [63] Please read through. Do you realize that not ONE person, as far as i could see, even remotely agreed with you? Why do you insist on arguing a point that, probably, very few people in the end will agree with? Most of the community of EVE would accept this, without blinking an eye. Your arguments are sound. You make a good point. But a wise man does not go into war alone. If you cannot find support for your cause, as is clearly the case here, then you should stop posting here and find support elsewhere. Once others have rallied to your cause, then maybe you will be able to change things. Until, then, you are simply successful in appearing paranoid and jealous. So please, go and find others that agree with you and come back then, otherwise, this thread will get nowhere. And people will simply stop listening to you. And that's just sad. Peace mate.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:07:00 - [64] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 06:06:57 Edit: wintended for wiggly, not post ninja there are you a complete moron or just somehow not clued in to the real world? Third Party Publishing is authorized by the IP owner, a Person negotiating for the right to publish for said IP is a regular buisness transaction occuring billions of times each day, whats the problem? Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:10:00 - [65] Originally by: Kame Tao Do you realize that not ONE person, as far as i could see, even remotely agreed with you? Irrelevent. You don't take a poll to see who has the right answer to a problem. You seek out the person who has the definitive correct answer.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:12:00 - [66] right but first we need a problem Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Kame Tao	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:12:00 - [67] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Kame Tao Do you realize that not ONE person, as far as i could see, even remotely agreed with you? Irrelevent. You don't take a poll to see who has the right answer to a problem. You seek out the person who has the definitive correct answer. ahem... did you at least read the whole post? or did you stop after that phrase?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:14:00 - [68] bah lets just make the thread epic wiggly is clearly a goon alt Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:18:00 - [69] SImplest way I can think of to explain why it isn't a problem: You are worried because the EULA says you can't. WEll, guess what? The EULA is the contract you agreed to in order to PLAY the game. Serenity is asking for, and is likely to get, a customized contract allowing him to PLAY the game AND sell the map books. It really is that simple. There is nothing nefarious about it, no need to go running around proclaiming the universe is ending. And it is NOTHING that every other game manufacturer hasn't already done. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:18:00 - [70] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 06:06:57 Edit: wintended for wiggly, not post ninja there are you a complete moron or just somehow not clued in to the real world? Third Party Publishing is authorized by the IP owner, a Person negotiating for the right to publish for said IP is a regular buisness transaction occuring billions of times each day, whats the problem? I do not appreciate the abuse of being called a moron for tryinf to protect this game. This is the first time CCP has outsourced to an individual the rights to use it's IP for personal gain. We are not talking about a business here but an individual. No corporate protection for the consumer. No fall back to CCP if you are disapointed with the product. CCP is exposing its customers to a whole host of risks by lending some level of 'credence' to third party suppliers. They have always been use at your own risk. In game goods / information / isk / ships / charactors have ALWAYS been off limits for online cash sales. Why all of a sudden is CCP backtracking on this? What makes Serenities product so complelling over the other free ones that CCP feels he should be able to sell it? Does it have some level of benefit for the greater community? If so I would love to hear CCPs justification as to what benefit this would bring us as a whole. Not just those that can afford it. You are right. CCP is free to have books published as they see fit however it seems to be selective decision making based upon the relationship of the individual to CCP. This individual has asked for part of the EULA to not apply to him. If approved I can't imagine where that would end.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly What Serenity is doing is circumventing the EULA and garnering special treatment from CCP that is currently not afforded all those other creative and enterprising individuals. Re-read my post. He is circumventing nothing if he is negotiating a licensing deal with CCP. Totally legal and normal business. Anyone can try this (whether CCP accepts your proposal is an open question of course). Quote: So in fairness to all those that have developed FREE third party sites, guides, programs tools and such they too deserve some form of compensation if Serenity is allowed to get away with making a profit off his work. If all the other people wanted to bother with negotiating with CCP so they could charge for their product they are free to try as well. Thing is usually a licensing deal will have an up front cost so you will be out money before you see a dime. Partly this is so someone doing this is motivated to follow through on the product and not waste CCPs time in negotiations. Once you have money on the line you are far more likely to try and see the product succeeds. Quote: I ask you... what is a better world for the EVE community? One where everything third party has a price attached to it, or one (like it is now) where everythign avaliable is free? Presumably the things people charge for will in some way be superior. If you can get what the guy is charging for free why pay? Maps are out there for all to use for free. Serenity's book will have to have something more. Maybe it'll be a coffee table book with sharp 4-color printing and beautiful pictures or an extensive cross reference guide or whatever. If all he does is print what I can print for myself today I am not giving him a dime. If the EVE-Mon people extended their product's functionality and user interface and wrote detailed help files and provided a 800 number to call for support then yeah...I expect they would want to get paid and should. But if they whip up their tool and it is handy it is probably not worth enough to pay CCP a licensing fee so they could sell it. Really needs a thorough business plan to see if that would be worthwhile.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:20:00 - [72] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 06:18:59 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly more numbskullery do you even PLAY eve? third party sales of gtc's, both corporate AND players ring a bell? Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Ombey Pitch Black Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:20:00 - [73] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his? I have been aware of Serenity's maps for quite some time- he and I have, as you would have expected, been in contact over it. I haven't and will never, charge for my 2d maps. They are a labour of love for Eve and the players, and if those players want to donate, then that is very good of them, but certainly not compulsory. Serenity's book has my 100% blessing, it fills a niche mine doesn't, and (IMO) looks better than my own maps. I can't use any design program, whereas Serenity can- you can see the difference! I can only imagine the hassle with producing a book of the maps, given the regular map changes, and the proof-reading required. Good luck Serenity -- 2d EveMaps\|Map forum thread
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I do not appreciate the abuse of being called a moron for tryinf to protect this game. Sorry but you are a moron, at least in a business sense Quote: This is the first time CCP has outsourced to an individual the rights to use it's IP for personal gain. We are not talking about a business here but an individual. No corporate protection for the consumer. No fall back to CCP if you are disapointed with the product. CCP is exposing its customers to a whole host of risks by lending some level of 'credence' to third party suppliers. They have always been use at your own risk. CCP's ability to go after an individual is EASIER than after a corporation, when it comes to contracting and repercussions. And you can guarentee that the contract he signs will be as detailed or more so than any they have signed with other companies. Quote: In game goods / information / isk / ships / charactors have ALWAYS been off limits for online cash sales. Why all of a sudden is CCP backtracking on this? What makes Serenities product so complelling over the other free ones that CCP feels he should be able to sell it? Does it have some level of benefit for the greater community? If so I would love to hear CCPs justification as to what benefit this would bring us as a whole. Not just those that can afford it. You are losing NOTHING and are NOT placed at a disadvantage. Those that buy it are gaining something cool. Is your ingame map going away? No. Is eve-maps going away? No. Is Eve-files going away? No. Gads, just because someone is publishing a book on the Nile doesn't mean that France will no longer have any water in its rivers Quote: You are right. CCP is free to have books published as they see fit however it seems to be selective decision making based upon the relationship of the individual to CCP. This individual has asked for part of the EULA to not apply to him. If approved I can't imagine where that would end. He isn't asking for this part of the EULA to not apply, he is entering into a BUSINESS arrangement with CCP to sell a book, just like the publishing company that CCP contracted with to print their posters entered into. Can you really not understand that? <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Kame Tao	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I do not appreciate the abuse of being called a moron for tryinf to protect this game. Sorry but you are a moron, at least in a business sense Quote: This is the first time CCP has outsourced to an individual the rights to use it's IP for personal gain. We are not talking about a business here but an individual. No corporate protection for the consumer. No fall back to CCP if you are disapointed with the product. CCP is exposing its customers to a whole host of risks by lending some level of 'credence' to third party suppliers. They have always been use at your own risk. CCP's ability to go after an individual is EASIER than after a corporation, when it comes to contracting and repercussions. And you can guarentee that the contract he signs will be as detailed or more so than any they have signed with other companies. Quote: In game goods / information / isk / ships / charactors have ALWAYS been off limits for online cash sales. Why all of a sudden is CCP backtracking on this? What makes Serenities product so complelling over the other free ones that CCP feels he should be able to sell it? Does it have some level of benefit for the greater community? If so I would love to hear CCPs justification as to what benefit this would bring us as a whole. Not just those that can afford it. You are losing NOTHING and are NOT placed at a disadvantage. Those that buy it are gaining something cool. Is your ingame map going away? No. Is eve-maps going away? No. Is Eve-files going away? No. Gads, just because someone is publishing a book on the Nile doesn't mean that France will no longer have any water in its rivers Quote: You are right. CCP is free to have books published as they see fit however it seems to be selective decision making based upon the relationship of the individual to CCP. This individual has asked for part of the EULA to not apply to him. If approved I can't imagine where that would end. He isn't asking for this part of the EULA to not apply, he is entering into a BUSINESS arrangement with CCP to sell a book, just like the publishing company that CCP contracted with to print their posters entered into. Can you really not understand that? Amen
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:29:00 - [76] Actually I didn't call him a moron, I asked him if he was Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:40:00 - [77] 1. Having the book will provide a tactical advantage to those who BUY it. 2. Those who can not purchase it have zero access to a free version. There will be the creation of a two tier playerbase based upon the puchasing of in game intelectual property. This is NOT a good thing for EVE irrespective of the legality of negotiating the right to produce it. That is the simple fact of the matter and it is BAD for the EvE community.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:40:00 - [78] The OP just shows that there are people in this world who'll turn every single stone in the universe to invent something to complain about..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:41:00 - [79] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 05/06/2007 06:40:55 fall out of a tree? It's already been established that there are plenty of free options edit: Oh I get it, what kind of asteroids do you need to get whine? and I'm assuming it reprocesses into pure chuckles Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:42:00 - [80] Wiggly just admit it. You're upset about this because it's essentially a Player's Guide to EVE. It shows where all the best stuff is, and that threatens the people that found it on their own because now they're going to have all these people flocking to those spots. But look at it this way: The book is likely going to be very popular and generate lots of sales (If the average EVE player has 2-3 accounts, they can throw money at a book of the game). So seriously, get over the entire "legality" thing. _________________ Burn.
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:42:00 - [81] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 05/06/2007 06:42:26 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly His plans: He prints and supplies it. No free version. You pay. You may or may not recieve a copy CCP denines to get involved as you delt with a third party He buys a car Greater EvE community suffers. So, let's look at the worst case. CCP allows this to happen, there is an eve-book from a 3rd party costing money, which in itself isnt really an issue, he puts work and money in it in the first place. Now tell me, how does the "EVE Community" suffer if some people choose to buy a book that is absolutely not necessary to play/have success in EVE? Should this lead to EVEMon or Quickfit becoming a buyable product too, it ofc would be bad for us, but there is nothing to blame, they do invest time to keep those programs up to date etc, so its their right (IF CCP agrees) to charge us. If you like that or not isnt really the point, the alternative is always there. Dont use it. PS: You seriously exxagerate on your "2 tier eve community" stuff, its not a "I-Win-Book".
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:45:00 - [82] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly No corporate protection for the consumer. No fall back to CCP if you are disapointed with the product. CCP is exposing its customers to a whole host of risks by lending some level of 'credence' to third party suppliers. They have always been use at your own risk. This is a book for a game. Not a flight control computer on a jumbo jet. Besides, I guarantee you the contract they sign will be quite specific. Likely Serenity mocked-up a few pieces to give CCP an idea of where he is going with this. CCP values their product and its reputation. The contract will be specific in what the final product does and looks like. They do not just say, "Give us $5,000 and have at it" and then hope Serenity does something more than print maps on a dot-0matrix printer and send it to people in a three-ring binder. Wouldn't suprise me if CCP has final approval of the book before it is sent to the printers anyway. For what this is I think that is more than sufficient protection for the customer and if for some reason the book is totally unreliable then he won't sell many and have to eat the bulk of 10,000 copies sitting in his garage. It's a good bet he'll endeavor to see that does not happen and do a good job.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:47:00 - [83] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly 1. Having the book will provide a tactical advantage to those who BUY it. 2. Those who can not purchase it have zero access to a free version. There will be the creation of a two tier playerbase based upon the puchasing of in game intelectual property. This is NOT a good thing for EVE irrespective of the legality of negotiating the right to produce it. That is the simple fact of the matter and it is BAD for the EvE community. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!! .... HAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!! okay now that that's out of the way. There ARE free versions available; in no way does the book provide information that isn't already available to players (or else how would serenity know to put that information in); having officer mods and carrier support provides a tactical advantage, having information about the systems provides a strategic advantage. The only benefit owning this book would have is that you don't get near-sighted as fast b/c you can look at a book instead of a computer screen. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:49:00 - [84] Ok lets take this all the way. Remove the gamecards please. If everything is going to be pay to play take it all the way. I know more than a few people who play this probably survive off these cards they grind their butts off to afford in isk. It sure as hell would eliminate half the isk farmers and go in the general direciton this thread promotes: If you cant afford it you dont belong here. This elitist attitude is being exuded at such levels and only the OP seems to see it. While people might deserve to make a profit off of something tell me this how much do you think your game would cost you? Using american costs 14.95 a month to play the basic game, 25 dollars for the map book Which you need to update every month or so or its worthless, another 20 to use one year of eve mon service add in various costs for all the little addons you people seem to think you need so desperately and THEN tell me this is a good thing. If that kind of thing happened i would drop this game instantly. No game is worth those kind of costs. I never frequent the isk farmers/cheaters and i would not play a game that basically charges for EVERYTHING. Hence why i dont play maplestory or other such pathetic pay to get phatz games.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:51:00 - [85] Originally by: Chewan Mesa Now tell me, how does the "EVE Community" suffer if some people choose to buy a book that is absolutely not necessary to play/have success in EVE? Simple. It sets a dangerous precedent. Never before has CCP allowed others to use it's IP to make a profit. The result was a plethora of free tools and website for the eve community. Now Serenity wants to take CCP intelectial property, compile it so all the hard work is done for you and sell it at a profit. How different is this than building a charactor, doing all the hard work and selling it on Ebay? or making 100m isk and selling that? There is no difference IMO. What about future developments? once Serenity gets away with charging for this quite possibly future tools / services will have a price tag as well. That is NOT the future I want for this game and I am pretty sure I am not alone.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:54:00 - [86] can we get a lock on this thread please? its nothing but flamebait. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:56:00 - [87] You seem personally offended that someone thought up an idea and managed to work with CCP to do this. I may or may not buy the book (I'm not sure), but there is an allure to having a hard copy of something you love. I'll for sure download it for free if available. But that someone is able to do something and you aren't/didn't.. it seems to personally offend you. And that's all I really see in this thread from you. _________________ Burn.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Alaron Giancol can we get a lock on this thread please? its nothing but flamebait. in your humble opinion. To me it is an very important topic worthy of the EvE community to have change to express their opinions on. If you are done with it you are welcome to move on. not demand for it to be locked.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:58:00 - [89] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly How different is this than building a charactor, doing all the hard work and selling it on Ebay? or making 100m isk and selling that? If you do that CCP may very well send its attorneys after you. That is the difference there. Quote: What about future developments? once Serenity gets away with charging for this quite possibly future tools / services will have a price tag as well. That is NOT the future I want for this game and I am pretty sure I am not alone. Future tools might or they might not. In order for people to charge for them they must arrange a licensing deal with CCP which is a cost right up front and they you had better hope enough people buy it. CCP may say no to whatever they want. If you have put in the work for some amazing tool then it is not so wrong that the person who did it has a chance to profit from it.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 06:58:00 - [90] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa You seem personally offended that someone thought up an idea and managed to work with CCP to do this. I may or may not buy the book (I'm not sure), but there is an allure to having a hard copy of something you love. I'll for sure download it for free if available. But that someone is able to do something and you aren't/didn't.. it seems to personally offend you. And that's all I really see in this thread from you. Personally offended? No... quite far from the truth. I have a problem that it is purchase only. You will not be able to download a free copy as that would cut into the profits of the creator Serenity. This goes against the EULA and smells too much like legitamising ebay type sales.
Fliewatuet Angelus dos Business	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:01:00 - [91] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly The creators of EvEMon only have a product because of the intelectual property of CCP. They use CCP resources and put load on the servers. If they started to charge for their service it would be tatamount to stealing. Well, you know, of course the load on the server would be drastically reduced then. :D Anyway, as long as evemon makes use of the database dump it won't do to charge for it. Still, as long as the idea is a good one and its usefull, its ok to charge for it. There are plenty of books around for a lot of games - walk-throughs, etc. why shouldn't that be allowed for eve? :) Regards, Flie --
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:02:00 - [92] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly This goes against the EULA and smells too much like legitamising ebay type sales. You really, seriously, need to get over that notion. Entering into a contractual business arrangement with CCP to produce a product related to their game is completely legal. Not only legal but normal. Imagine Serenity was not an EVE player but a publishing house. Would you feel differently about it then since the publishing company was not an EVE player bound by the EULA?
Serrano Balthar Crypsis Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:03:00 - [93] lol at the op .... seriously, go out see how the sky is blue, open you'r noze and ... refresh you'r mind !!!! ----------- Igvar Thorn arn !
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:06:00 - [94] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I have a problem that it is purchase only. You will not be able to download a free copy as that would cut into the profits of the creator Serenity. Except you can download free maps that have all the same information as Serenity's hard copy. Quote: This goes against the EULA and smells too much like legitamising ebay type sales. and this is why this nothing but flamebait, since it has been established several times by several people that it is NOT against the EULA as it in the form of a separate business contract. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:06:00 - [95] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Personally offended? No... quite far from the truth. I have a problem that it is purchase only. You will not be able to download a free copy as that would cut into the profits of the creator Serenity. This goes against the EULA and smells too much like legitamising ebay type sales. Show me proof that I cannot download a copy of the guide. She hasn't even RELEASED IT YET. _________________ Burn.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:13:00 - [96] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Imagine Serenity was not an EVE player but a publishing house. Would you feel differently about it then since the publishing company was not an EVE player bound by the EULA? No I wouldn't as CCP would probably sell it via their website. However we are NOT talking about a publishing house with a licencing agreement are we? We are talking about Serenity obtaining tacit approval via a phone conversation with Oveur to 'go ahead'. This is tantamount to giving special licence to one player in the game to ignore a clause of CCP's EULA. I find that unacceptable, favoratism and setting a VERY bad precedent. If CCP wants a map book I have NO problem with that. They want a guide? CCP should go right ahead and produce one. However CCP is NOT doing this. Serenity is and is going to make a profit off of doing so with CCPs approval. This is the same legalised ebay ISK, or charactor sales but with one person having the exclusive rights to do it.
Ionia Advanced Manufacturing	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:14:00 - [97] I don't understand your problem. I can't figure out if you're an attention seeking whiner or just plain cheap. Why don't people have the right to profit from their work? If CCP say its ok, it's ok. Where do you get this idea that everything that people put their time and money into should be donated to you free of charge? If someone is using CCP's intellectual property and has an agreement with CCP for this, then there is no problem. If someone was to program an EVE-related application that didn't use CCP's intellectual property and charged for it, there is no problem. Stop being so ******* cheap.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:15:00 - [98] Edited by: Splagada on 05/06/2007 07:14:15 Originally by: Dark Shikari Paying for a physical book? I'm fine with that--do you realize the cost and hassle of printing and shipping such a thing? Their time is worth money you know; they deserve some profit. id like to buy it, that and a poster Whats the freaking big deal? ------
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:15:00 - [99] Edited by: Stahlregen on 05/06/2007 07:14:37 Anyone who does decide to invest in ISS deserves to be separated from their isk, permanently. So good on ya count!
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:16:00 - [100] /me goes off to ask CCP to license me the right to print out all the ships stats and modules listing and standard generic set-ups, along with pictures of Gallente Women. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:17:00 - [101] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 07:17:07 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Show me proof that I cannot download a copy of the guide. She hasn't even RELEASED IT YET. From Serenity own website. When and where can I buy the EvE Strategic Map Book? The book will be available for ordering soon(tm). It has all the Revelation (Kali) Maps, including patch 1.31. The ordering link on this site will become active and an email will be sent out to all newsletter subscribers. Prototypes shown at Fanfest had a very positive response. No, the copies signed by all the dev's aren't for sale! This will not be made available for free, and your 'pre-order' may or may not ever come into fruition. The risk is yours to take.
wasn't me	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:20:00 - [102] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Imagine Serenity was not an EVE player but a publishing house. Would you feel differently about it then since the publishing company was not an EVE player bound by the EULA? No I wouldn't as CCP would probably sell it via their website. However we are NOT talking about a publishing house with a licencing agreement are we? We are talking about Serenity obtaining tacit approval via a phone conversation with Oveur to 'go ahead'. This is tantamount to giving special licence to one player in the game to ignore a clause of CCP's EULA. I find that unacceptable, favoratism and setting a VERY bad precedent. If CCP wants a map book I have NO problem with that. They want a guide? CCP should go right ahead and produce one. However CCP is NOT doing this. Serenity is and is going to make a profit off of doing so with CCPs approval. This is the same legalised ebay ISK, or charactor sales but with one person having the exclusive rights to do it. First of all, the data dumps have a different license then the game. And it explicitly states that if you want to use the information comercially that you need to get a license. And do you honestly think that you can get such license with a single phone call? Do you honestly think there havn't been RL meetings with for example a marketing director? He's also not the first one, do you think that CCP is publishing EON? Wrong. MMMPublishing is. And finally you can NOT compare it to ebaying - he did out of game work and he is not selling ingame items.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:22:00 - [103] Originally by: Ionia Why don't people have the right to profit from their work? If CCP say its ok, it's ok. The problem is for years CCP has said that it was NOT ok for people to profit from their own work using EvE intelectual property. NOBODY. This is the first time a individual has taken 100% in game EVE materiel and slappeed a price tag on it for personal profit and is attempting to garner CCPs blessing. If CCP blocks ISK sales and charactor sales for cash... they should stand by their EULA and prevent maps for cash as well.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:29:00 - [104] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly This is tantamount to giving special licence to one player in the game to ignore a clause of CCP's EULA. I find that unacceptable, favoratism and setting a VERY bad precedent. If CCP wants a map book I have NO problem with that. They want a guide? CCP should go right ahead and produce one. However CCP is NOT doing this. Serenity is and is going to make a profit off of doing so with CCPs approval. This is the same legalised ebay ISK, or charactor sales but with one person having the exclusive rights to do it. First of all, what's being sold is a physical book, not electronic property, which makes it different from selling ISK or characters, which are purely electronic. If you can't tell the difference, you need to go outside more. Secondly, its not exclusive in that anyone could do if they went through the same amount of work that Serenity did, and got CCP's permission. Once again, you seem to be dwelling on points that several people have countered several times... - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:34:00 - [105] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 07:33:24 Originally by: Alaron Giancol First of all, what's being sold is a physical book, not electronic property, which makes it different from selling ISK or characters, Intelectual property is Intelectual property. Owned by CCP and not for individuals to sell according to their EULA. That includes maps on in game resources, ISK, charactors etc. They are indistinguishable from a copyright standpoint.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:42:00 - [106] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Intelectual property is Intelectual property. Owned by CCP and not for individuals to sell according to their EULA. That includes maps on in game resources, ISK, charactors etc. They are indistinguishable from a copyright standpoint. Right, so you can't sell them w/o CCP's permission... which serenity has. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:44:00 - [107] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 07:43:21 Originally by: Alaron Giancol Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Intelectual property is Intelectual property. Owned by CCP and not for individuals to sell according to their EULA. That includes maps on in game resources, ISK, charactors etc. They are indistinguishable from a copyright standpoint. Right, so you can't sell them w/o CCP's permission... which serenity has. You mean which Serenity has REQUESTED... Which I am saying CCP should deny for reasons aforementioned. All caught up now?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:51:00 - [108] 1. The book is a static tactical information feed - The game is dynamic thus it will only be accurate for so long 2. In the world of todays internet - how long do you think it will take before someone bought and scanned the complete book and put up for download - which will make your "only special people will have this o so advanced tactical information"-argument obsolete As for a player entity negotiating rights to produce a product containing CCP IP and charging us for it - tbh that's every day biz, and if someone wants it they will buy it - just like we do with EON but there noone complains about the ship setup guides, trading and mission guides and so on. If he manages to produce a book and get people to buy it then great work and he earns it. Personally I got the chance to flip through it at last years fanfest and it was sweet as hell so I hope he succeeds, and I'd buy it - not for the tactical information - but for the fact that it will be a memory and wellkept information resource "after" EVE. For everyone else with an idea that potentially could earn them money, everyone has the same chance to make something and discuss it with the IP owners - are you sure you are not just jealous that you didn't come up with this idea first? /c Help me help you .

FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:51:00 - [109] At the end of the day. I find Ombey's free maps far superior to the Strategic maps. So I don't think this will set a precedent. If anything, it'll just encourage people to make better/cheaper imitations. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Vorian Atraties Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:53:00 - [110] you know i was going to type out some long winded thing here but after 2 lines i said to hell with it. what's the point. I personal have no problem with it at all. if ccp wants to licens serenity to produce the book and charge for it fine. he put in all the hard work in createing it. I think he should have some compensation. you aparently have a problem with ccp allowing him to do so and charge for it. and are worried that all these other people that have created things for eve will also want to start chargeing for ther products. again if you dont want to pay for something dont use it, or make something yourself. I would have no problem paying for the products such as evemon or The Book, it takes alot of time and work to create these things. Just cause you dont want to have to pay for them dosent mean that other's will not. oops i went and did a long winded thing anyway oh well vor ps. keep up the good work serenity. pps btw if you are so concerned about it why not post with your main???
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 07:54:00 - [111] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Which I am saying CCP should deny for reasons aforementioned. All caught up now? You mean the reasons that almost everyone else in the thread has disagreed with you on? How is CCP giving someone permission to make a physical map book going to threaten EVE? What rationale can you give that this will lead to more ISK and character selling than there is already? How is it not fair that someone who is choosing to invest money into a project (making physical books has material costs and overhead associated with it that other free 2D maps and programs like EVEMon don't) be able to get money back? - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:12:00 - [112] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:11:53 Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And wow! Having to pay to get stuff? Where are you from? You take the honest work of the people that create EvEMon and MLCalc for granted? You think it's natural that you get their stuff for free? Congratulations for not getting the point. It is NOT fair for only ONE third party developer to gain financially from their efforts while others are bound by the EULA to never charge a dime. Either they ALL should be compensated or none of them should. Selective application of the EULA depending upon the relationship of the individual with those within CCP is unfair to not only thiid party developers, but to the eve community. The status quo was for 10 years not to allow third party developers to capitalise financially off off CCP intelectual property until now. I am pointing out this situation as I am uncomfortable with the precedence it sets.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:15:00 - [113] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 07:17:07 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Show me proof that I cannot download a copy of the guide. She hasn't even RELEASED IT YET. From Serenity own website. When and where can I buy the EvE Strategic Map Book? The book will be available for ordering soon(tm). It has all the Revelation (Kali) Maps, including patch 1.31. The ordering link on this site will become active and an email will be sent out to all newsletter subscribers. Prototypes shown at Fanfest had a very positive response. No, the copies signed by all the dev's aren't for sale! This will not be made available for free, and your 'pre-order' may or may not ever come into fruition. The risk is yours to take. um it was at fanfest?? then it must be liseanced.. and I bet CCP will post it on the EvE store
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:19:00 - [114] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:18:37 Originally by: MotherMoon um it was at fanfest?? then it must be liseanced.. and I bet CCP will post it on the EvE store If they do I would feel quite differently about it. However the way it has been 'adversised' in these forums by Serenity it is quite clear this is a personal money making enterprise. I'd love to have CCPs official response to the nature of this relationship. It would go a long way to clear up any preconcieved notions out in the eve community.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:11:53 Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And wow! Having to pay to get stuff? Where are you from? You take the honest work of the people that create EvEMon and MLCalc for granted? You think it's natural that you get their stuff for free? Congratulations for not getting the point. It is NOT fair for only ONE third party developer to gain financially from their efforts while others are bound by the EULA to never charge a dime. Either they ALL should be compensated or none of them should. Selective application of the EULA depending upon the relationship of the individual with those within CCP is unfair to not only thiid party developers, but to the eve community. The status quo was for 10 years not to allow third party developers to capitalise financially off off CCP intelectual property until now. I am pointing out this situation as I am uncomfortable with the precedence it sets. what are you talking about!!!! EULA??? they aren't making real world money based on in game isk. it's a player guide. thrid parties do that they don't play EvE CCP will make money off of it EULA has nothing to do with out of game stuff and making a book and selling it is not E-bay money making unless you mean that a company is trying to make you a comsumer ***** because well, open your eyes, if you ever bought a 3rd party transformer toy then you've been used for money at the creator expense duh but this is different this is a player giude. a hardcopy. and you can allready download all of the maps. and make the book your self. also what the hell are you talking about when you say we will get chraged money for in-game tools lik EvE-mon?? if EvE-mon was a book maybe. if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:20:00 - [116] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon um it was at fanfest?? then it must be liseanced.. and I bet CCP will post it on the EvE store If they do I would feel quite differently about it. However the way it has been 'adversised' in these forums by Serenity it is quite clear this is a personal money making enterprise. I'd love to have CCPs official response to the nature of this relationship. It would go a long way to clear up and preconcieved notions out in the eve community. you could of just said, Is CCP making money off of this or not. and we would all comment about that. and like I said it's a company using a brand to make money at consumer *****s expense
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:23:00 - [117] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:11:53 Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And wow! Having to pay to get stuff? Where are you from? You take the honest work of the people that create EvEMon and MLCalc for granted? You think it's natural that you get their stuff for free? Congratulations for not getting the point. It is NOT fair for only ONE third party developer to gain financially from their efforts while others are bound by the EULA to never charge a dime. Either they ALL should be compensated or none of them should. Selective application of the EULA depending upon the relationship of the individual with those within CCP is unfair to not only thiid party developers, but to the eve community. The status quo was for 10 years not to allow third party developers to capitalise financially off off CCP intelectual property until now. I am pointing out this situation as I am uncomfortable with the precedence it sets. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps. The only difference between the deal between CCP and Serenity, and every other deal CCP (or any other game company has in the past) for merchandising is that we can actually identify the person making the product in-game. I have no doubt that at least some of the employees of the companies that physically produce the EVE key chains, playing cards, t-shirts, and posters play EVE, we just don't know who they are in game. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:23:00 - [118] Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you? Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:25:00 - [119] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you? Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice. well if I called CCP frist and asked if I could and they said yes then yes I would do just that and make money off of people that are really happy I take sweet screen shots
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:26:00 - [120] Originally by: Alaron Giancol You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps. Eh? Of course there is a fixed cost for developing programs and webapps. The computer itself, internet access, server space, bandwidth charges, software licencing etc. All have a fixed price. What's wrong with you?
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 - [121] you said "What about all the players who can't pay for it because of financial constraints? What would happen if all the slick third party tools, resources and books of information became 'subscribers only'? The player base would be split right down the middle. Those with the resources and those without. It is a question of equality. Any third party tool was allowed to be develped using CCP intelectual property so long as it was free for everyone to obtain." um.. yes MMORPG's have player guides. So do one player guides. they cost money.. and give the person who paid money an advantage. this is normal are you saying you feel like players will get ahead of you because they have a static hard copy of maps?? if you want to print a book out it will cost you ink and paper. and a cover. so buy it for 10$ or make it for 3$ plus you'd have to put all of the time into it as wel. this is a case of someone working instead of you doing it. and you pay them because you didn't want to make it. like going out of diner is more expensive than making it your self.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 - [122] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Alaron Giancol You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps. Eh? Of course there is a fixed cost for developing programs and webapps. The computer itself, internet access, server space, bandwidth charges, software licencing etc. All have a fixed price. What's wrong with you? Each of those items are independent of the amount of product produced. Having 99 people use the program costs the same as 100 people Printing 99 books costs less than printing 100 books. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:28:00 - [123] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you? Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice. well if I called CCP frist and asked if I could and they said yes then yes I would do just that and make money off of people that are really happy I take sweet screen shots What does ANY of that have to do with your statement that "if it isn't electonic it's not covered by the EULA"??
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:29:00 - [124] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Alaron Giancol You seem to be oblivious to the fact that each book has a fixed cost associated with producing it, unlike programs and webapps. Eh? Of course there is a fixed cost for developing programs and webapps. The computer itself, internet access, server space, bandwidth charges, software licencing etc. All have a fixed price. What's wrong with you? same pint if EVE-mon called up CCP and they said yes you can make people pay then it would happen. maybe you should pioint your random anger at CCP and not the company making the book.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:30:00 - [125] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon if it's not electronic it's not covered by the EULA Wow. You don't actually beleive this do you? Try and print off screenshots on paper and selling them in here. I would be curious how far you got before CCP lawyers smacked you with a copyright infringement notice. well if I called CCP frist and asked if I could and they said yes then yes I would do just that and make money off of people that are really happy I take sweet screen shots What does ANY of that have to do with your statement that "if it isn't electonic it's not covered by the EULA"?? well you asked me to try selling prints so I told you how I would. and I guess I'm wrong point still stands
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:31:00 - [126] Originally by: Alaron Giancol Each of those items are independent of the amount of product produced. Having 99 people use the program costs the same as 100 people Printing 99 books costs less than printing 100 books. So the COST of book production is a variable cost associated with the number of books actually ordered and printed. You seem to be wavering on your original position about fixed costs.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:31:00 - [127] well I say one thing. thank you for telling me about this book *goes off to buy
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:33:00 - [128] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:45:54 Originally by: Svengali not the trolling bits about not shipping Do you deny this is risk to consider? Personally when I buy something off ebay I have real concerns if it is going to arrive or not. Why would this be any different? CCP knew better than to expose it's player base to 'pay for use' third parties like this from the outset. This is why they said you are not allowed to charge for such services. They should stick by their guns and say NO to this. Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces. for goodness sake it was at fanfest. if you don't get your product you call faurd and get him sued. CCP wants it made it's happening
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:35:00 - [129] Originally by: MotherMoon maybe you should pioint your random anger at CCP and not the company making the book. Ummmmmm hello. I have stated over and over that I have no problem with a guide, book, or any other third party tools or sites. I do however have a problem with CCP providing exclusive licence to one individual to provide CCP intelectual property for personal profit. CCP isn't going to benefit from this. Nor are any of us that either choose or can't afford to buy it. There is no equivilent electronic version for us to download. If CCP was behind this that is a different story altogether but they are not. They are allowing someone to skirt the EULA that applys to all other third party developers. That is plain unfair, and ultimately to our deteriment.
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:36:00 - [130] Ok...let's cover some commerce terms, and where you're reasoning is flawed. 1.) Serenity will not be a "third-party" producer. He is currently in negotiations with CCP, which means once he gets offical permission, he becomes a Licensed Producer. Grab a dictionary and look up "license". 2.) Serenity won't be the only one profiting. CCP will get their share based off of sales (ergo, per copy), and while Serenity has done the compilation work (and will thusly be handsomely compensated), CCP gets their royalties from the sales of the book. In fact, in such instances, the IP Holder typically sets the deal up with the publishing company. This allows the IP Holder to, in essence, screw the little man more, because they take on some of the costs of production, thereby allowing them to keep more of the profits as an investment return. 3.) Serenity, as you say, will not be in a position to "take the money and run." That damages the image of CCP, as well as violating multiple laws concerning misrepresentation of product, or failure to produce. When the book is purchased, you're buying a BOOK, not stock or options. So, if Serenity is a Licensed producer and fails to deliver, he leaves himself, the publishing company, and CCP open to litigation in International Courts. Anyone else see CCP standing for that for very long before the bounty hunters are on his tail? 4.) EveMon, and other such products are freeware. By it's very definition, freeware can NEVER BE CHARGED FOR. Any attempt to do so is a violation of multiple International Copyright Laws, because it then crosses into the domain of unauthorized profiting from Intellectual Property. They are legally allowed to ask for donations to keep themselves in mountain dew and glazed donuts on those long programming nights if you like the product, but the second they ever attempted to charge for said program, CCP would have them thrown under the jail for copyright infringement. 5.) As so many others have pointed out, it is in no way a violation of the EULA for Serenity to negotiate a contract with CCP for licensing of an Eve product. He is more than within his bounds to do so....it's called Free Enterprise. If anyone else were to have similar ideas, they have every right to do the same. The EULA solely prevents the selling of any electronic properties which are, in fact, the property of CCP. 6.) Your fears of CCP licensing out rights to sell products bearing the Eve name are baseless. Sales of Eve mapbooks, or calendars, or t-shirts, or any other items will not create an "Electronic Bourgeoisie". In fact, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but not all Eve Characters (or Players) are created equal. I have an extremely high-end machine and a souped-up broadband connection. That means I have an edge, whether you like it or not. If I buy the mapbook, will i have more of an edge? Probably. But will the little guy with the lower end machine and the crappier connection receive a bigger edge? Absolutely. Now he knows where not to go, and when you're system isn't the absolute top-of-the-line, the best way to survive a bad situation is to never get into it in the first place. At any rate, I'm worn myself out. Feel free to look up any terms in bold in your trusty Webster's....maybe you'll figure out the flaw in your logic. And as far as your concerns of creating two classes in Eve... EVISCERATE THE PROLITARIAT!!! _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:37:00 - [131] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So the COST of book production is a variable cost associated with the number of books actually ordered and printed. You seem to be wavering on your original position about fixed costs. so I used the wrong term, this isn't a economics course, and it doesn't change the facts. you seem to be ignoring the relevant arguments being brought against you in favor of picking apart terminology and diction. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:39:00 - [132] Originally by: MotherMoon if you don't get your product you call faurd and get him sued. CCP wants it made it's happening Ok... suppose it doesn't arrive and I call 'faurd' and turn to CCP? Their response will be? Sue him? Who? Where is he based? What's his name? Where is the consumer protection? At least if you buy stuff off CCP you have SOME legal recourse verus some random user name in a online game.
Osmaal Courteous Ultra-Nice Transport Services	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:39:00 - [133] CCP own the intellectual property that is eve and all the related trademarks etc. When we pay our subscription we are licensing that property for out use under the terms of the EULA. If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also. The simplest way yo deal with this is to just not use any 3rd party product that you would have to pay for. There's no-one putting a gun to your head saying you have to. not sure about quick-fit but EVEmon is opensource and uses a GPL license so anyone can use it free of charge and only could someone start charging for it if they produce a substantially altered version of it. If anyone's that concerned about loosing their 3rd party tools download them now whilst they're still free and if they make a product someone has to pay for at a later date DON'T BUY IT! (nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head) "Its not the size, its what you do with it that counts"
Gaia Thorn Infestation.	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:47:00 - [134] Edited by: Gaia Thorn on 05/06/2007 08:50:32 Last time i checked CCP owned the rights to this game and what nots around it. If they feel like doing a excemption to the EULA it's there choice i garantee you that some where in it there is a clause stating that they can do whatever they want. And why shouldnt people that produce stuff around the game get paid ??? Im just glad if they keep it cost free for aslong as possible. But if they want to get paid talk to ccp just like steele put forth a valid sales pitch and who knows CCP might make a exceptiom once more.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:48:00 - [135] Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:49:58 Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:48:09 errr... "Well 2 preview printed books were sent out at the start of May. One to Oveur, and one to the CEO of CCP \| White-Wolf North America. The phone call I had with Oveur last week, he said it's good to go (ie. creative approval). White-Wolf are responsible for publishing - they've been investigating reducing printing cost via printing in USA / China, which has taken since February." ok, um your really dull... you must of not done any reading and just got paranoid. I'm sry if this is hrash but ou opened for flamebait I have to take a deep breath here before I OWN you in the face... CCP AND WHITE WOLF ARE THE SAME COMPANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!1!! nvm I thought you had a point but if this is the case and CCP says yes and white wolf is publishing the book you fail because that means CCP is printing the copies of the book!!! also remember what you said about3rd parties shouldn't make money? you must hate EvE-voice then
Osmaal Courteous Ultra-Nice Transport Services	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:49:00 - [136] Quote: Ok... suppose it doesn't arrive and I call 'faurd' and turn to CCP? Their response will be? Sue him? Who? Where is he based? What's his name? Where is the consumer protection? At least if you buy stuff off CCP you have SOME legal recourse verus some random user name in a online game. Would you really hand over your hard earned cash to someone you only had an online identity for? If you did that i'm afraid you deserve be scammed. No doubt if this guy did start selling a licensed product he would either: a)negotiate with CCP to sell through the online store b)sell it on ebay as those purchases are protected or, c)use another service like amazon marketplace which again protects the consumer The simple way to not get scammed is don't allow yourself to get scammed! "Its not the size, its what you do with it that counts"
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:50:00 - [137] Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also. Of course. No problem with that. My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community. What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price. This is obviously NOT a healthy trend.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:52:00 - [138] Edited by: MotherMoon on 05/06/2007 08:51:46 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also. Of course. No problem with that. My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community. What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price. This is obviously NOT a healthy trend. sure if you have an idea and CCP MAKES THE *** thing then yes you should have to pay for it. White wolf is CCP now. get it through your head. CCP is paying him for making the book and selling it themselfs.
Haks'he Lirky 8th	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:54:00 - [139] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:11:53 Originally by: Haks'he Lirky And wow! Having to pay to get stuff? Where are you from? You take the honest work of the people that create EvEMon and MLCalc for granted? You think it's natural that you get their stuff for free? Congratulations for not getting the point. It is NOT fair for only ONE third party developer to gain financially from their efforts while others are bound by the EULA to never charge a dime. Either they ALL should be compensated or none of them should. Selective application of the EULA depending upon the relationship of the individual with those within CCP is unfair to not only thiid party developers, but to the eve community. The status quo was for 10 years not to allow third party developers to capitalise financially off off CCP intelectual property until now. I am pointing out this situation as I am uncomfortable with the precedence it sets. Erm arguing with you any further would be fruitless as it's obvious by the answers in this thread that your concern is not mirrored by the other people in the thread. But I'll try this once more. It costs money to publish EON and it's not CCP that does it directly same with the trade card game, any single enitity can contact CCP with an idea to create a product to be sold as an EVE product. If CCP likes the idea and want it to be part of their product line then they will say yes. It costs money to physically print a book, I'll repeat this for you, it costs money to print a book. So if you want a nice printed book created by a member of the community then you will have to fork out cash for that product, just like you fork out cash for EON and the card game.
Marcos Trask	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:55:00 - [140] I think this is not a problem. Will you buy a book that will be outdated with the next patch? Eve is a game with fast changes - ingame by players and by the work of CCP. E.g. removing of Stargates, belts etc. I think it could get a problem if CCP will make changes on the game (and on the ingame mechanics) according to that map project. But I think we are far away of that atm. And i do not think CCP will make such decisions. Hence they are interested in the game and its player base (they want to earn their own money :) )
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 08:59:00 - [141] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community. What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price. This is obviously NOT a healthy trend. The landscape hasn't changed at all. The option for people to pursue the business venture that Serenity has has always been there, but noone has chosen to until now. Its not like it's the only source for 2D maps in the world. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:02:00 - [142] Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book. Next step... EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription. The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy. Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP. Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end?
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:03:00 - [143] Edited by: Onnawa on 05/06/2007 09:02:31 Aptly put. From everything I've seen here, it's not Serenity's product...he was simply the originator. It appears it's now a CCP/WWI product, and your argument is a non-issue. Which was what I thought I spelled out fairly clearly in my original post. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:03:00 - [144] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book. Next step... EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription. The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy. Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP. Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end? NO! stop! it's not a program! it's a sldkghskdjfhsldkfj book. do you hate that EON is made? it has tanking guides, and interviews, and maps of EVE. it has new ships, FAQs, and lots of other stuff. please someone lock this :/
Vorian Atraties Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:06:00 - [145] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Osmaal If CCP want to allow someone else to use the property in another way they can as it is their right and no doubt that person will be charged also. Of course. No problem with that. My beef is they have denied everyone from doing so for 10 years. This has created a healthy community of third part developers making tools and resources for free use by the gaming community. What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price. This is obviously NOT a healthy trend. as a company they have the right to do so. Perhaps other material that was proposed to ccp in the past was not up to there standerds. and perhaps this is. Is this the reason your so mad you had an idea and ccp said umm no? or do you have a secret list of names of all the people that have been denied by ccp? at anyrate i give up on this debate with you it's not productive in anyway as it's clear that nobody can change your mind on this subject. vor
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:06:00 - [146] Edited by: Alaron Giancol on 05/06/2007 09:08:57 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: MotherMoon on top of the fact that CCP and white wolf same company print both the TCG and EON, and the new upcoming map book. Next step... EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription. The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy. Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP. Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end? Is there a precedent for this sort of thing happening? Is your opinion of CCP so low that you honestly think they will pursue this sort of thing? Is your opinion of the people that made these programs so low that you honestly think they will try to get money out of it, even though they haven't since they've released it? - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:07:00 - [147] Originally by: Alaron Giancol you seem to be ignoring the relevant arguments being brought against you in favor of picking apart terminology and diction. And that points to a troll. A skilled one, but nevertheless a troll.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:09:00 - [148] Mods, lock this topic please? Its just a lot of rubbish -- and already discussed to death. Wiggly, how about posting with your main instead of just trolling with a new char ?
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:10:00 - [149] My comments, in no particular order of priority: Get over yourself. Cottage industry is a good thing, mmkay, what are you, some kind of communist? How are we supposed to take an angry little alt called wiggly jiggly seriously, post with your main or stfu. I personally plan to make my fortune renting exotic dancers to people in real life through an IGB interface, I just have to find my bald amarr lady then I'm gonna hit CCP up for a license... Fan created products are good. Where do think gaming in general would be if Gary Gygax had pulled out the lawyers on anyone trying to make a d&d module or figurine back in the day?
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:10:00 - [150] it has to be said OP? put on your tin foil hat because were never going to believe you. and we can proudly watch as you stand on the sidealk of space with a cardboard sign that says, this is only where it starts! it's all over! who will stop the madness! where will it stop! who will stop it!"
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:12:00 - [151] As we have pointed out before, EveMon is FREEWARE. It can never be licensed for profit. To do so, even by CCP, would be a violation of International Copyright Law. Freeware is freeware....forever. PERIOD. Even freeware and free programs have their own EULAs....go have a look. It's required by ICL. Usually something along the lines of "this program may be shared, linked to, duplicated, hosted, or modified on a free and as-is basis." And as far as EveMiner, if it isn't on a Freeware basis and CCP wishes to acquire the rights, then disable if you don't pay, that's their buisness, not ours. They're still the IPO, and they have rights. You, on the other hand, have only the rights granted you in the EULA by afore-mentioned IPO. Get over it, don't buy it, and for heaven's sake, quit complaining about it. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Mallikanth	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:14:00 - [152] Hmmm 6 pages so far of argument and counter argument. It simply boils down to this... Do you want it / agree with it? No? Then don't buy it!! Do you want it / like it ? Buy it!! It appears to be endorsed by CCP so it's good. I don't see a problem in this or any other endorsed application / recourse being charged for. if I don't want it I won't buy it. Get a grip please! Moaning seems to be the pastime recently in these forums.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:18:00 - [153] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Imagine Serenity was not an EVE player but a publishing house. Would you feel differently about it then since the publishing company was not an EVE player bound by the EULA? No I wouldn't as CCP would probably sell it via their website. However we are NOT talking about a publishing house with a licencing agreement are we? We are talking about Serenity obtaining tacit approval via a phone conversation with Oveur to 'go ahead'. This is tantamount to giving special licence to one player in the game to ignore a clause of CCP's EULA. I find that unacceptable, favoratism and setting a VERY bad precedent. If CCP wants a map book I have NO problem with that. They want a guide? CCP should go right ahead and produce one. However CCP is NOT doing this. Serenity is and is going to make a profit off of doing so with CCPs approval. This is the same legalised ebay ISK, or charactor sales but with one person having the exclusive rights to do it. Please read my comment above for those who claim I am a troll. If this guide is produced and sold on the EvE online site. I have NO problem with it. If instead it is sold on Serenity site only, I have HUGE problems with it. There is a big difference here fellas. Please understand the disticintion. It is irrelevent who prints the book.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:22:00 - [154] I see nothing wrong with this. Feel free to sell these useful map books Serenity Steele, should your negotiations with CCP succeed anyways.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:22:00 - [155] Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:23:27 Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension... Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about. Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing From this post... Now be quiet.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:24:00 - [156] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Please read my comment above for those who claim I am a troll. you are still ignoring the reasons why we are calling you a troll, which in and of itself is the sign of a troll Quote: If this guide is produced and sold on the EvE online site. I have NO problem with it. If instead it is sold on Serenity site only, I have HUGE problems with it. There is a big difference here fellas. Please understand the disticintion. It is irrelevent who prints the book. Even if the money is distributed the same way in both cases? - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:27:00 - [157] How did this thread get to 6 pages :/ OP - read the arguments against your point (you completly missed what dark shikari said on page 1 or 2 about EVEmon remaining free). If someone introduces a paid service its usually replaced by another player developed free service, these are hardly likely to stop, not to mention some people won't be succesfful in getting CCP permission. This is a special case, much like EON, if people want it they pay for it, if they don't then they don't get it or print their own using the many free alternatives available on the internet.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:28:00 - [158] Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension... Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about. Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing From this post... Now be quite. Quite what? Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement. If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others. They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base. It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:29:00 - [159] perhaps this is a case of a tin foil house?
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:30:00 - [160] I really shouldn't feed the troll, but publish implies something more than just print, capice...
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:31:00 - [161] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Erichk Knaar Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 05/06/2007 09:21:53 Apparently you fail reading comprehension... Not a clever thing to do in an argument you are being so passionate about. Quote: White-Wolf are responsible for publishing From this post... Now be quite. Quite what? Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement. If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others. They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base. It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially. the people who write EON get money... and the people who buy it are t2 members and if you go to fanfest you are a t3 member sweet behinds talk with devs face to face awesomness
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:34:00 - [162] Serenity isn't "making a buck". He's provided a product that CCP has deemed worthy of production, and will thusly be compensated. It's like saying that a restaurant is making a buck off the backs of farmers because they've changed raw produce into finished food. That's the end to it. "Never Argue with an Idiot..... They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Alaron Giancol Amarr Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:37:00 - [163] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Quite what? Deriding me for my opinion is a weak form of arguement. If Serenity gets to make a buck off the backs of CCPs intelectual property it sets a exteremely poor precedent for future development from others. They will start asking for compensation creating a two tiered player base. It is IRRELEVENT who actually prints the book. What matters is who benefits financially. What's an "arguement"? I'm not familiar with "intelectual" property. What exactly do you mean by "exteremely"? now that that's out of the way, I'll ask you again: Is your opinion of CCP and the producers of third-party tools so low that you honestly think they will try to charge for their use? What precedent is there for this happening with third-party programs? Serenity is the only player we know of who has produced a tangible product related to EVE, and there is NO precedent for providing such products for free. - We don't get information anymore, we get spin.

Sahwoolo Etoophie Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:41:00 - [164] Originally by: Onnawa As we have pointed out before, EveMon is FREEWARE. It can never be licensed for profit. To do so, even by CCP, would be a violation of International Copyright Law. Freeware is freeware....forever. PERIOD. Even freeware and free programs have their own EULAs....go have a look. It's required by ICL. Usually something along the lines of "this program may be shared, linked to, duplicated, hosted, or modified on a free and as-is basis." And as far as EveMiner, if it isn't on a Freeware basis and CCP wishes to acquire the rights, then disable if you don't pay, that's their buisness, not ours. They're still the IPO, and they have rights. You, on the other hand, have only the rights granted you in the EULA by afore-mentioned IPO. Get over it, don't buy it, and for heaven's sake, quit complaining about it. More precisely, EveMon is licensed under the GNU GPLv2 license, which is a free/open source license. It is a misunderstanding though, that programs licensed under it cannot be sold for profit. They can, but the GPL license terms have to be obeyed, that is you have to share the source code and let everyone modify it. Because the source code is public generally the for-profit model is not very widespread, but there are exceptions. It is most certainly not against law to charge money for GPL licensed software, just don't expect too many customers. The other misconception relates to Intellectual Property. No such thing exist. To be more precise, it is an umbrella term for three separate areas of law: copyright, patent and trademark. forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 09:55:00 - [165] Thank you Sahwoolo. It's getting rather late here, and after 22 hours, my business law begins to run together. Essentially Sahwoolo has made my point for me more eloquently than sleep deprivation allows: Freeware/Openware can be charged for, but that cash cow dies rather quickly, because someone else can then take your version, modify or improve it, then distribute it for free, thus cutting you out of the loop. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:03:00 - [166] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase. Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game. Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?) So what up with the exception?? Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts. The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed. Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without. CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel. Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it?? WHY? That of all things should be free. If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE. Not the right direction in my opinion. Thoughts? No offense but your an idiot. Case Closed
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:04:00 - [167] Meh, theres plenty of precedent for companies to outsource the making of certain "companion" products to third parties. Its been going on since the dawn of video games. Just look at the massive "Prima Strategy Guide" set up. Or the EVE CCG- CCP are letting a third party print and sell a product with their name on. To be honest, I'd rather some hard working and diligent EVE player made a few quid selling what is essentially a "strategy guide" (that is, a book with in game information) than one of the major publishing giants. Go, little man! But in honesty, unless the price is pretty close to cost, I wouldn't buy one. Similar info is already available for free in the form of Ombey's maps and similar. --------
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:15:00 - [168] If White Wolf follows their typical trend of book prices, you'll be looking at $20 for softcover, $30-$35 for hardback. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:20:00 - [169] Originally by: Odinegras No offense but your an idiot. There are countless maps available, personally i use ombeys map (Thanks Ombey :D) This book isnt base level material it isnt 100% necessary to buy this book to play the game is it. So dont buy it, there are free alterantives and as i understand it he is doing it for non profit, so he is spending his time doing something for the community so be grateful that there are people like him in the world.... Idiot First. Offense taken because you could have expressed your point of view without the abuse. Second, you 100% that he is doing this without compensation? I strongly doubt it.
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:22:00 - [170] if it was hardback i would buy it, would be handy. then again if CCP released a massive map big enough for me to put on my wall and reference systems from there (like a massive poster) i would pay for that also! i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort.
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:27:00 - [171] Originally by: Xtreem then again if CCP released a massive map big enough for me to put on my wall and reference systems from there (like a massive poster) i would pay for that also! Ooooh yes! Then I'd have an excuse to replace the WoW map my GF hung up behind my screen ;)
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:29:00 - [172] I am fine with the book. I won't buy it anyway. My beef is that this SHOULD be available ingame, i.e. the ingame map options should be made better (I never liked it). As it is now, it is hard to make something useful from the ingame map. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:35:00 - [173] Originally by: Xtreem i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort. B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA. Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:37:00 - [174] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am not sure if you are all aware of this or not but Serenity Steele has been negotiating with CCP to produce a book of maps for the playerbase. Negotiating with CCP because he wants to charge us for it. Thats right... a player not affiliated with CCP wants to CHARGE us for basic information compiled from in the game. Now I see this as a DANGEROUS precedent for CCP to set allowing anyone to make a buck off our backs for a game we already pay to play. In fact, I believe it is against the EULA for any of us to try and sell anything EvE related to the playerbase. (Why do they get all bent out of shape about ISK resellers?) So what up with the exception?? Imagine if all of a sudden we have to pay for EvEMon, MLCalc or any of the hundreds of other programs and tools build for the EvE community? They never asked for a dime as payment for their efforts. The path Serenity Steele is walking down is a dangerous precedent for this community. Once the genie is out of the bottle and getting paid for making third party tools / resources for this game it is the customer who will be screwed. Soon tools / resources will stop being made for free. EvEMon will be a $10 a year service, EvE Miner will cost money to use. The result? There will be a premium type of player who can afford to play with the bells and whistles while another player set goes without. CCP, either third party tools and resources aimed at us are free, or they should be criminally pursued by CCP for copyright breach. Individuals should NOT be alowed to exploit the player base with 'pay for access' materiel. Heck, all Serenity Steele has done is rehash the EvE universe that CCP created and put it in a book. CCP owns the intelectual property and plans to allow Serenity Steele to have us PAY for it?? WHY? That of all things should be free. If CCP allows this to go ahead I see this as the start of a 'pay as you go" for all things related to EvE. Not the right direction in my opinion. Thoughts? You would have made a better debate here if you would of posted with your main and not this new ALT...Goon squad freak. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr The Plebians	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:38:00 - [175] The sky is falling the sky is falling, help help the release of a book for eve is the end of the world Or perhaps not... I predict that this book will be just as usefull and just as much a prerequiste for playing this game as any of the other game strategy guides out there for any other game are. So not at all then... However i certainly wouldn't be too annoyed if one of these turned up in my christmass stocking as a nice eve related present :)
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:46:00 - [176] It's CCP's game, they can do whatever they like. If tommorow they wanted to paint all ravens pink, they could, and there would be nothing you could do about it.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:48:00 - [177] To the op: Im sorry to say this but your either trolling or thick. And i dont mean that in a derogatory way. Im trying to to explain it to you in short easy sentences in order to help you understand what dozens of people tried to explain you. The eula you refer to is a contract between you and ccp. This contract happens when you accept it logging into the game the first time. This contract isnt even remotely legally binding unless you accept it, which you must do in order to play, but not in order to release books. You understand? You could try writing a book about eve without ever logging in, and thus never seeing/accepting the eula. If you try to make money out of ccps IP you get sued. However not on grounds of the eula. A eula is not the same as a law, you can only sue people on laws, not on eulas. If you try to make money of ccps IP without their permission you are breaking various laws depending on country, you will get sued on grounds of these laws. Breaking the eula only leads to the termination of your contract with ccp that is required to play eve. So what serenity is trying to do is get ccps consent to use their IP in his works. You need this consent for legal reasons once you try using the IP of someone else to make money. For legal reasons you dont need the consent to use the IP if you do it for free. Its simple. You write a fanstory about eve and post it on the web --> OK. You write a book on eve and plan to get it released by a huge publisher --> You need ccps consent. This has nothing to do with eula, and all to do with laws. It would be the same if ccp didnt even HAD a eula. So dont get all hyped about the eula, all the eula is there for is kicking you out of the game if you drop beer on oveur at a fanfest or barf on his f-40. Oh yeah and if you do stuff thats bad for the game ... yeah definitly, almost forgot about that ... But you barf on that car your seriously get yourself a lifetime ban.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:53:00 - [178] Edited by: Patch86 on 05/06/2007 10:54:37 Edited by: Patch86 on 05/06/2007 10:54:28 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Xtreem i dont see the big fuss over someone charging cash for alot of effort. B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA. Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem. What about the up coming novel thats in production (apparently)? Or the CCG? What if they allowed Prima to release a strategy guide? They're comprised primarily of EVE game content, and are sold / will be sold for a price. Whats the difference? --------
Ozstar Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.06.05 10:57:00 - [179] Wiggly, it seems only you have a problem with this, in which case dont buy it and crawl back under the rock you came from. Im looking forward to these map books as i think they will be helpful when roaming around unfamiliar territory. Am i willing to pay someone for the effort they have put into making them, damn right i am.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:07:00 - [180] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. What Serenity is attempting to do is make this clause not apply to him, while making it apply to everyone else. In essense, making a personal profit off the userbase in direct contrevention of the EULA. Now if CCP buys this book and markets it as it's own... no problem. If Serenity plans to sell this on his own website for profit... big problem. He doesnt do any of the things in that paragraph. He doesnt sell any content, he is selling a collection of selfmade maps in bookform. These maps are his own, he made them. To sell them requires the consent of CCP because because the maps are based on their IP. It helps reading the stuff at the beginning of the eula: Second paragraph states "This End User License Agreement ("EULA") describes the terms and conditions under which you may (i) install and use the Software; and (ii) subscribe to, access and use EVEÖ online. CCP may amend this EULA from time to time by posting an amended version at http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp. If you accept this EULA, the then-current version of this EULA shall apply each time you access the System or play EVEÖ. " Thus it has nothing to do with releasing any IP related 3rd party stuff since it only applies to installing and playing the game, yes its really that simple.
Mih0	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:16:00 - [181] but guys i paid for my mining macro why is this any different
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:16:00 - [182] Originally by: Bentula Thus it has nothing to do with releasing any IP related 3rd party stuff since it only applies to installing and playing the game, yes its really that simple. As a condition of him installing and playing the game he agreed to: "not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, " He most certianly is attempting to do just that. It is that simple.
Professor Pizi	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:17:00 - [183] Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed. i will ... cant wait till i get my hand on it
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:20:00 - [184] Edited by: sesanti on 05/06/2007 11:20:24 I did not bother to entire thread because I am at work, but I read the OP and I would like to point out the following: 1- It's not legal for us to sell EVE-related merchandise UNLESS we have a legal agreement with CCP (which is what S. Steele is probably doing). 2- You can always not buy it if it stops being free. 3- You do not need any stuff outside the game to play EVE. So even if ALL the tools become paid, they are not essential to the enjoyment of the game. I do not use anything at all but a small Excel sheet with some mineral costs for a couple of T1 BPOs i have. 4- The tool creators have the right to do what they wish with their stuff. So if they were to agree with CCP on having rights to sell their stuff paying royalties, and then would want to charge you 1000 bucks a months in a license concept or whatever, they are in their right to do so. You choose whether to use them or not. 5- I do not think CCP will sell out and modify the game so as to make some licensed stuff essential to play the game. 6- You can always create your own software and distribute it for free, and even do it better that what would be being sold. So i do not think it is much of a problem. BTW, I would like to stress that if S. Steele is negotiating with CCP, he/she is SURELY going to have to pay royalties to the company for using their product, so it is not going to be free for him at all. He could even end up losing money. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Haks'he Lirky 8th	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:24:00 - [185] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Bentula Thus it has nothing to do with releasing any IP related 3rd party stuff since it only applies to installing and playing the game, yes its really that simple. As a condition of him installing and playing the game he agreed to: "not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, " He most certianly is attempting to do just that. It is that simple. If CCP publish the book then that clause does not apply now does it?
Bentula	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:26:00 - [186] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly As a condition of him installing and playing the game he agreed to: "not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, " He most certianly is attempting to do just that. It is that simple. Ok, first things first. You may not quote parts of the eula out of context, either the whole paragraph or none of it. Second If you did that you would note that the name of that paragraph is "Selling Items and Objects". In the context of the paragraph itself it becomes clear that this refers to items and objects in the game. He is not trying to sell any ingame items, objects or content. If he tried to sell starsystems he would be in breach, but selling a physical map of starsystems is neither a item nor a object in the sense of this paragraph.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:27:00 - [187] Hrm. So, I'm not granting derived rights to have me or my assets be published in a third party publication :P Black hole on map :P Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Zoi Opia Raw Edge	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:45:00 - [188] In three (hopefully) easy to understand sentences: "Serenity the Player" is not considered as the same entity as "Serenity the Book Publisher". EULA applies only to "Serenity the Player". "Serenity the Book Publisher" has a different, separate agreement with CCP, which has nothing to do with the EULA, nor should it.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:50:00 - [189] I've been reading this thread on and off at work today. Most entertaining I must say. Wiggly, you really need to read and understand what people are saying. You are wrong. The EULA is an agreement between the player and CCP. Is it a contract? Is it legally binding? I don't know. But I do know this. Assuming they are a legally binding contract, contracts CAN BE VARIED by agreement between the involved parties. Besides that, as others have suggested the EULA is not really applicable in the case any. It's more a case of copyright law. Does it set a precedent? Sure it does. Will everyone else jump on the bandwagon and start trying to do the same thing? Possibly but in a lot of cases it will be too difficult. Take EVEMon as an example. It's licensed under the GPL. It is actually possible for this license to be revoked and for them to revert to a closed source license. To do this would require that all copyright holders of any part of the code agree to this or their part of the code has to be removed and rewritten. Technically this is possible but it's an awful lot of effort. On top of that you can't retroactively change the license for released versions so anyone can take the old code base and fork it to keep a GPL version going. The closed source licensed version is not likely to fare too well then is it? Cheers.
Thews Mortaza Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.05 11:54:00 - [190] The maps belong to CCP, they can do whatever the hell they like - including license them for publishing to whoever the hell they want, for whatever, if anything, they want. You don't need to buy a set of maps to play EVE. Shocking, but true! It is not the same as selling ISK - the relevant problem in relation to this being it (ISK selling) is unauthorized ... by own account the OP says that Serenity is negotiating therefore one can safely assume they'll only seek to do it if they can get that authorization. As far as the EULA goes, I'm welling to bet my 0.02 ISK that there is a clause that specifies they can change that whenever they want, too. (Jeez, 7 pages?)
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:09:00 - [191] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Next step... EvEMon gets 'licenced' and now has a monthly subscription. Even if that unlikely thing ever happened. So what? Then someone who doesn't want to pay will make a new free tool. Big deal. And exactly what tactical advantage does EveMon or EveMiner give you in-game? Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly The EvE client scans hard drive for copies of EvE Miner and disables EvE unless it is a registered and licenced copy. Sites that list Mission guides are threatened by lawyers because they do not pay royaties to CCP. Trust me. It starts here. Where will it end? This is pure trolling/flamebaiting/tinfoilhattery. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly What Serenity's services does is changes the landscape dramatically and opens the door for future services to not be devloped for the community for free... but at a price. It's not changing the landscape at all. This is no different than the EON magazine. And as mentioned earlier, besides maps, EON also has strategy guides, ship guides and sometimes info on upcoming features. Though EON is sold through the Eve-online website, but CCP is not the one billing my credit card when I buy it. Whether or not an item is sold through the Eve-site or not does not make any difference at all, as long as CCP has given their permission. If CCP does allow Serenity to sell his map book, I'd say, it's likely that it will either be sold here also or redirect you to his site. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly What's to stop this Serenity from taking pre-orders for books raking in the cash and claiming company failure?? Nothing. As a independent third party Serenity has no affiliation to CCP and accordingly, CCP customers are exposed to his potential risk. You may not trust Serenity, but CCP apparently does/will. Finally, you may very well be of the opinion that selling 3rd party tools and information compilations, is the same as selling ISK or characters, but I seriously doubt CCP agrees.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:10:00 - [192] Originally by: Mih0 but guys i paid for my mining macro why is this any different Because as the eula states wiggy, you bought something that effects in-game. A book does not. yes we know it's you
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:11:00 - [193] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Bentula Thus it has nothing to do with releasing any IP related 3rd party stuff since it only applies to installing and playing the game, yes its really that simple. As a condition of him installing and playing the game he agreed to: "not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, " He most certianly is attempting to do just that. It is that simple. where? what content from in the game is he selling?
Stella Stardust	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:13:00 - [194] Don't mix up copyright and IP ownership, first of all. From what I have seen from the book (only looked on the website), the material is made by Serenity, and as such, owns the copyright to them. The copyright for that material does NOT belong to CCP, as they are original work. They are however based on the IP, intellectual property, of CCP, namely the EVE universe. As such, CCP have a say in who uses their IP and for what. That includes the people NOT charging for various uses of it. The EULA deals with things not only directly copyrighted by CCP, but also things that only exist on their servers (ISK, characters, ships or other items). There are pay-for-membership websites for various MMO's, there are published guide books etc etc etc. This is really no different. In fact, I would wager that most EVE players (who are the only ones who would buy the maps) prefer the idea of buying it from someone in the community who put effort into contributing, rather than a faceless and nameless company who churn out hint- and guidebooks.
Flump Amarr Renegade Traders	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:19:00 - [195] this is great ive been out of touch for while and first post i see on forums is this from Wiggly Jiggly pure class someone complaining about someone else's work which no one is forced to buy. he forgets they brought out a book about eve before game was fully working long ago, but since Wiggly Jiggly has problably only just got a 3day account he wont know this.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.05 12:38:00 - [196] The map needs to be nerfed not compiled as an easy walkthrough and sold, less is more. Also Known As
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 13:47:00 - [197] To the op. You are missing the whole point about this. EVEMon, Jumpplanner et al is a dynamic software that only costs time from the programmers POV. The books on the other hand are HARDWARE that needs to be built. That my friend costs money. I don't see a problem with this at all. Why is it that when someone uses their brains and thinks in capitalistic terms, they are automatically going to ruin everything? Tell me how you are going to be able to use EVEmon or the Jump Planner in book format? This is a unique situation. Doesn't mean the end of the world. And if CCP allows it, then not your problem. It's their game, not yours or mine. You are not being forced to buy the book. Nor are you being forced to buy EVEmon or Jump Planner. Relax, it's not the end of the world "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:01:00 - [198] Originally by: Buxaroo To the op. You are missing the whole point about this. EVEMon, Jumpplanner et al is a dynamic software that only costs time from the programmers POV. The books on the other hand are HARDWARE that needs to be built. That my friend costs money. I don't see a problem with this at all. Why is it that when someone uses their brains and thinks in capitalistic terms, they are automatically going to ruin everything? Tell me how you are going to be able to use EVEmon or the Jump Planner in book format? This is a unique situation. Doesn't mean the end of the world. And if CCP allows it, then not your problem. It's their game, not yours or mine. You are not being forced to buy the book. Nor are you being forced to buy EVEmon or Jump Planner. Relax, it's not the end of the world Just for the record, the dedicated server needed to run the Jumpplanner is not exactly free. My provider is getting a nice big chunk from my credit card every month. I would like to quote the following from what I think is the first export back in 2005: Quote: The data is provided as-is. You can use this for creating maps on fansites, calculating routes, etc. You can not sell this data or use it in any form of a commercial product. If you want to use it in a commercial product, contact [email protected] for licensing The data is copyright CCP 2005 and owned by CCP Games, Iceland. That is, as far as I know, where CCP opened the door for licensing, which is perfectly fine. What do I think about it? I love that book. I've browsed though it at the FanFest and as soon as it is available I'll buy one myself. ---- ICSC Jumpplanner tool - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Dal Thrax Caldari Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:30:00 - [199] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Says who? Why couldn't I make my own mapbook, get CCP's permission, and sell that too? What's stopping me? The fact that it would cut into your forum time? (Though DS, Seleene and SirMolle's strategy guide for EvE would probably sell fairly well). Dal Things I learned playing PnP RPGs: 1)Always assume that the players will bring the maximum available firepower against a peaceful objective.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:33:00 - [200] Originally by: gordon861 I work for a local authority in the UK and a lot of the stuff we produce we are not able to sell for profit as the information should be publicly available or is based on other works. So we calculate the print costs and use that to work out the price. Yeah? That's quite interesting, actually. What kind of information? --------
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:41:00 - [201] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Elissen Just for the record, the dedicated server needed to run the Jumpplanner is not exactly free. My provider is getting a nice big chunk from my credit card every month. Ouch. Can't you use one of the advertising services (Google Ads or what have you) to try and rake back some of the cash? Or something? Out of principle I do not want ISK-sellings ads on my site. But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO. ---- ICSC Jumpplanner tool - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:43:00 - [202] Originally by: Buxaroo To the op. You are missing the whole point about this. EVEMon, Jumpplanner et al is a dynamic software that only costs time from the programmers POV. The books on the other hand are HARDWARE that needs to be built. That my friend costs money. I don't see a problem with this at all. Why is it that when someone uses their brains and thinks in capitalistic terms, they are automatically going to ruin everything? Quite the contrary. CCP thought that way which is why the EULA states what it states. namely, you can not sell in game content. All I expect is that CCP sticks by it's commitment to that and prevents individuals (Serenity in this case) from independently selling CCP intellectual property. CCP is more than welcome to purchse his book off him and flog it to us. I couldn't care less about that. But the EULA should be fair and equitable in fairness to all thoe other developers out there who have made free tools for the EvE community. Why should Serenity get to make $$$ off EvE when hard working other developers respected the EULA and did not. Why should Serenity exploit his relationships with CCP and get kickbacks and wavers on what clauses he can ignore of the EULA while others can not? Alot of people have spent a lot of money, time, energy, and effort to provide this community with a lot of free goodies. Only Serenity is looking for a payday out of it. I it laughable that many of you make me out to be the bad guy.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:45:00 - [203] i would read this thread, but nobody is paying me to either read it or respond to it in any reasonable way, so i will not.
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:48:00 - [204] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Odinegras No offense but your an idiot. There are countless maps available, personally i use ombeys map (Thanks Ombey :D) This book isnt base level material it isnt 100% necessary to buy this book to play the game is it. So dont buy it, there are free alterantives and as i understand it he is doing it for non profit, so he is spending his time doing something for the community so be grateful that there are people like him in the world.... Idiot First. Offense taken because you could have expressed your point of view without the abuse. Second, you 100% that he is doing this without compensation? I strongly doubt it. That isnt abuse dude i was just stating a fact that your an idiot as you dont seem to have looked at the "problem" from all sides weighing up the pros and cons, telling me that you are lacking in the intelligence department ie an idiot... So not an insult a statement of my conscious opinion and as i see it a fact. TBH tho your probably just mis-guided How much is he going to be charging for these books? How much are his printing cost? Providing alternative costings from an alternative source to give his figures credibility? How much time has he spent developing the concept and doing the art work? Simple but yet neglected facts.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:50:00 - [205] Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO. Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair. Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right? WRONG. Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only. This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:51:00 - [206] If CCP were to take the map function out of the game, and insist you were to buy a book to replace it, I could see your point. Surely an Eve map book will have limited appeal? Who's the target market? A coffee table type book? Not much use for interactive jump planning. Not much good when patches change routes as has happened many times in the past. I'll stick with Ombey's map, but if a guy has gone to CCP with a business idea and CCP think it's got merit, then good luck to him. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Tarazed Aquilae	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:57:00 - [207] Are you serious? Someone decides to put together a book of maps to sell. They get permission to do so from CCP. (If they didnÆt then CCP could take legal action.) You are free to buy it or not to buy it. Is this whatÆs happening? So whatÆs your problem? Do you think you are somehow ENTITLED to the labors of another person? If it wasnÆt that most people in the world do think they are entitled to the labors of another person I would think you were joking. As you have pointed out, CCP owns the intellectual property. And that means they can do with it what they will. If they want to let someone sell Eve fiction books they can. If they want to let someone sell Eve starship models they can. And if they want to let someone sell Eve maps they can. And you really donÆt have any legitimate standing to challenge their decision.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:57:00 - [208] Seriously guy, GET OFF the EULA kick, you are just plain wrong in your entire assumption of what is allowed and not. Read the EULA for the copy of windows you are running, I guarentee that it is different than mine (Corporate contract). The EULA even varies between countries. It is a basic contract for using the product, can be succeeded/supplanted by other contracts and sometimes even completely nullified. Basically in the players' case it is a list of do's/dont's that will keep you in good favor with CCP's legal department. If CCP wants to do a contract to allow Serenity to publish a book there is NOTHING in the EULA that prevents that. Gads, I can't believe I read past the last time I said you were an idiot <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:57:00 - [209] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for. What exclusive game content is he providing that you can't access through other means, ie the ingame map? Does his book include secret jump gates to avoid gate camps that you can only activate by using an "in book" code? ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.05 14:59:00 - [210] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO. Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair. Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right? WRONG. Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only. This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for. Erm you still dont get it do you! As i understand it this is a map book, correct and in eve there is an interactive map plus a dozen or so maps available to download for free, so what is the problem? Plus when you mention the EULA can you quote the passage your refering too please. Thanks
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 - [211] Edited by: Buxaroo on 05/06/2007 15:03:33 Originally by: Elissen Just for the record, the dedicated server needed to run the Jumpplanner is not exactly free. My provider is getting a nice big chunk from my credit card every month. I can understand your point of view on this matter. And for the record, if any particular service warrants some kind of payment, yours is definetly at the top of the list. And I can also understand the debate on wether one thing you can charge money for as opposed to something that you cannot. It does open up the doors on whats legal etc. But lets be a little real here in concerning whats acceptable to to make money from as opposed to whats not. From my POV, someone creating and maintaining a site like yours is not trivial, but I wouldn't think it would be as expensive as making a hard copy book. As far as paying for work rendered, I love the ways that you can pay for OOG (out of game) items or services with in game isk. For instance the numerous ways for people to create unique forum signatures for isk. It's the great capitalistic way of this game and the game designers encourage it which I think is fantastic and shows how much they are intune with the players. Or take for instance your Jump Planner site (which btw now that I have made some isk selling some items I can now send your way via a donation for services rendered and please don't consider this as a bribe of any kind to get you to agree with me :-) ) which you pay for out of your own pocket via the hosting for the site and the time you took to create that service. But you have to look at the cost of your service ( I am not sure how much per month you pay for your service, but I used to run my old CS clans website and it usualy ran about $15 a month) and compare it to something like creating a hard copy book which I am assuming cost a lot to produce. This is not in any way to say his idea or service is better than yours understand, but the process I think is a lot more real life money involved. You may think CCP is playing favorites with this but I don't think so. I am sure CCP will be making profit from this no doubt, but they can't very well just take the guys hard work that he has done in collecting all that valuable information and presenting it in the manner that he has and not re-imburse him for his troubles. Remember back when Counter Strike was a mod only? I played CS beta 4 long before it was a Valve-owned game. You have to remember how many mods there are for Half Life and Half Life Source. But from my knowledge, CS was the only mod they bought to distribute as their own. I am sure Valve got to thinking "Hey, this mod has really taken off and people are playing it more than anything else out there but these guys did it for free and with their own time. I think we should give them an offer for their mod, even though the software and game engine is ours, and make some profit off of it and develope future versions ourselves." To me it's just good business sense and there are no loosers in this. I don't think CCP would do something like take the guys book and then distribute it as their own, even though it's their game and their information, without due compensation. That only seems fair. Of course, I have not read the particular information about the book deal but either way this seems to be the general arrangement I am thinking they have. Correct me if I am wrong on this matter. "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 - [212] Originally by: Bistot Kid Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for. What exclusive game content is he providing that you can't access through other means, ie the ingame map? Does his book include secret jump gates to avoid gate camps that you can only activate by using an "in book" code? It includes concords shield frequencies and the backdoor gate from 0.0 to Jita so you can jump in and kill everyone in a titan Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:01:00 - [213] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO. Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair. Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right? WRONG. Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only. This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for. If you quote me, quote me completely. Also, again: Quote: The data is provided as-is. You can use this for creating maps on fansites, calculating routes, etc. You can not sell this data or use it in any form of a commercial product. If you want to use it in a commercial product, contact [email protected] for licensing The data is copyright CCP 2005 and owned by CCP Games, Iceland. Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license. ---- ICSC Jumpplanner tool - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:07:00 - [214] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 05/06/2007 15:10:33 Can a mod lock this thread please... this guy doesn't even understand what is an EULA and the open doors that it can give both the author and 3rd party creators. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If CCP wants to do a contract to allow Serenity to publish a book there is NOTHING in the EULA that prevents that. Originally by: Elissen Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license. Made it bold for ya Wiggly as this is the only thing you need to really get a grasp of. Next thing we'll see, is that he'll pretend that because something is GPL, he must have it automatically for free. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Threv Echandari Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:11:00 - [215] Edited by: Threv Echandari on 05/06/2007 15:11:45 1. Serenity has already negotiated with CCP to use the IP (it shoud be end of story) 2. 3rd party apps can still be made for free (GNU and all that) if EveMon worked out a deal with CCP to sell Evemon (and publishing a diffrent version with diffrent code under a diffrent licensing scheme) then more power to them! Coding is hard work and people should be able to charge for their work Your Whining about "Hows it traditionally done" and what-ever. Boo Freeking Hoo. Its CCP's game and if they want to licence their IP more power to them. More revenue for CCP means stable subscription prices for us. Of course all these arguments will flow over your head like air. All you want is free stuff and can't stand the fact that someone with Time, skills and talent has come up with something that he can sell (Its no different than PRIMA Strategy guides)and CCP said its OK. If you want free DL Ombey's Maps, I for one will be happy to Pay Serenity for a Nice Double sided Spiral bound map. I can't make that my self and it provides value --to me-- No one is forcing you to use ANY 3rd party tool and you can play eve just fine without them. If you don't like it don't buy it. Thats capitalism (Which is really waht you seem to have a problem with it seems) Threv Caldari Prime > Luminaire
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:11:00 - [216] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Can a mod lock this thread please... this guy doesn't even understand what is an EULA and the open doors that it can give both the author and 3rd party creators. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If CCP wants to do a contract to allow Serenity to publish a book there is NOTHING in the EULA that prevents that. Made it bold for ya Wiggly as this is the only thing you need to really get a grasp of. Next thing we'll see, is that he'll pretend that because something is GPL, he must have it automatically for free. /signed TBH i dont think wiggly understands real world corporations CCP will have a mission statement (which they aint gonna change) and im sure (Im Assuming) in there it states something about providing free additional content to its End Users
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:13:00 - [217] Edited by: Odinegras on 05/06/2007 15:12:32 Oops double post
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:14:00 - [218] Originally by: Elissen Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license. Correct. And if CCP wishes to go down that path by all means they are welcome to. I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content. Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong. Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:17:00 - [219] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Can a mod lock this thread please... Don't like my opinion or points of view so you decide to whine for a thread lock? Move on if you disagree with the substance of the discussion. Nobody is forcing you to buy it.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:17:00 - [220] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Elissen But this is about EVE Maps and charging for physical items, which is perfectly fine IMHO. Ok... to make a point. I have NO problem for the base cost of the printing to be recovered. That's fair. Well this would make supplying a free version to those who only wish to print part of the guide themselves also fair right? WRONG. Serenity has NO plans to provide a free version of this guide to anyone. Pay access only. This is clearly against the EULA as there is no free element to this book. It is entirely pay for access. Or another way of looking at it is you are paying to buy game content you have already paid CCP for. CCP is free to establish an business relation with anyone, including those that play the game. Sadly in a capitalistic society nothing is for free, people die because they cannot pay for food while others pay millions to go to outer space. So yes, like you say, if he wants to charge for his service and not offer it for free for anyone else, then it is in his right. Those that won't pay will not have it, while those who get their credit cards out of their wallets will. And if CCP allows it thru a business contract, they are on their right too. That is life, mate. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Nestor II	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:21:00 - [221] I for one will be buying this book when it comes out, for the most part it will be a valuable tool for mining ops and related stuff.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:22:00 - [222] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Elissen Also, the EULA doesn't matter at all if somebody signs a contract with CCP that states differently then the EULA or license. Correct. And if CCP wishes to go down that path by all means they are welcome to. I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content. Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong. Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse. I'm interested (answer honestly here): would you be just as upset if CCP commissioned Prima (part of the Random House publishing empire, I believe) to release a strategy guide for the game? --------
Jason Marshall Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:23:00 - [223] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Buxaroo To the op. You are missing the whole point about this. EVEMon, Jumpplanner et al is a dynamic software that only costs time from the programmers POV. The books on the other hand are HARDWARE that needs to be built. That my friend costs money. I don't see a problem with this at all. Why is it that when someone uses their brains and thinks in capitalistic terms, they are automatically going to ruin everything? Quite the contrary. CCP thought that way which is why the EULA states what it states. namely, you can not sell in game content. All I expect is that CCP sticks by it's commitment to that and prevents individuals (Serenity in this case) from independently selling CCP intellectual property. CCP is more than welcome to purchse his book off him and flog it to us. I couldn't care less about that. But the EULA should be fair and equitable in fairness to all thoe other developers out there who have made free tools for the EvE community. Why should Serenity get to make $$$ off EvE when hard working other developers respected the EULA and did not. Why should Serenity exploit his relationships with CCP and get kickbacks and wavers on what clauses he can ignore of the EULA while others can not? Alot of people have spent a lot of money, time, energy, and effort to provide this community with a lot of free goodies. Only Serenity is looking for a payday out of it. I it laughable that many of you make me out to be the bad guy. IIRC he isnt using a direct screenshot of the universe map, he remade the map in an easier ot view format. The only thing comming otu the game are the system names. Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:23:00 - [224] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content. So I guess that you'll have to sue me because I'm partly living on many GPL stuff that I reuse, sell, etc. You're welcome to try. In no way I made any harm to the products I am using, to the contrary. While Eve is not GPL, the example stands against your misunderstanding of the current subject. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong. ORLY? Based on all your arguments... I don't think you really know who's right or wrong. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Unless CCP takes ownership and sells this guide and supports it via this website, Serenitys 'customers' are open for the potential of exploitation and abuse. You still haven't shown in all these pages a single valid argument about a potential of exploitation and abuse possibility except for the fact that you don't like that someone publishes a book and ask some money for doing so and under the grace of CCP. Just... don't buy anything made by external parties if you don't like it. Leave the others to their own choice. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:24:00 - [225] Originally by: sesanti So yes, like you say, if he wants to charge for his service and not offer it for free for anyone else, then it is in his right. Those that won't pay will not have it, while those who get their credit cards out of their wallets will. And if CCP allows it thru a business contract, they are on their right too. That is life, mate. Sure it is. And those that sit back and let it happen of course it will. However those precious few who point out that for 10 years this sort of activity has been frowned upon. Players have been BANNED for similer activities in the past. Selling in game content for cash has always resulted in plauyers being banned. Selling ISK, charactors, ships, stations, alliances... you name it... CCP has kicked people for much less. Whats different now? Whats so special about Serenity book of maps that warrents Sertenity to benefit financially while others are told it is against the EULA or simply banned? Ebaying ISK. Ebaying Map Books. Ebaying Charactors. It's all the same unless you are Serenity it seem. Don't you find that very interesting?
Vantoth Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:28:00 - [226] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So if I took these forums, distilled them down and presented them in a book format, slapped "The Unofficial Guide to EvE" and sold it on Amazon you would be ok with that? Intelectual property belongs to CCP. They have the right to say what gets to be used and what does not. Serenity Steele plans to make this an exclusive profit making adventure for himself while using these forums and resources to do so. Nobody else is allowed to charge for their products. NOBODY. Why should Serenity Steele get away with it especially when his product is nothing more than a 'cut and paste' of in game information? Business initative sure, I'll give him that. Good for the EvE community? You bet your boots it is not! It sets a VERY bad precedent about having to pay for third party tools. Shame on CCP for allowing this to go ahead. If they sign a License agreement with CCP then they can. That's just it, he is getting permission from CCP to do this, If he were to do it without licensed permission from CCP then he could get sued. If I were to create a set of build it yourself line of ship models based on the ships in EVE, I could sell the heck out of them as long as I get Permission from CCP. Same thing goes if I wanted to create a paper back novel based on the world of EVE. As long as he gets the License agreement from CCP, that means they are ok with it and are most likely getting a slice of the money he is getting.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:30:00 - [227] Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found! EVE Online: Official strategy guide. Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP! --------
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:33:00 - [228] Originally by: Nestor II I for one will be buying this book when it comes out, for the most part it will be a valuable tool for mining ops and related stuff. So you are saying that for you, this map book would provide you a gaming advantage over and above that if you did not have access to it. If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative. Would this disparity be aleviated by CCP providing a online PDF download for you?
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:34:00 - [229] I have no problem with these guys charging for production costs if they want to make a nice printed piece available for the community. It is expensive and time consuming to produce a nice book. HOWEVER, I agree that the information contained within the book should be made available to the entire community for free in a digital format. If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that. The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator. Charging for thier time to compile and design the book is something else,. Plenty of people here do that for free and CCP should not make a deal that messes with that community dynamic. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:39:00 - [230] Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found! Congratulations. It adds nothing to this discussion. There is nothing wrong with this. If CCP wants to sell map boks fine they are welcome to do so. I have a problem when individuals use in game content to make a profit. I.e ISK sellers, Charators Sellers and nbow obviously Map Book creators. If CCP want to sell ISK THEY should do it. If they want to have a book on the market THEY should sell it. Not some Yahoo from god knows where that provides ZERO consumer protections.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:40:00 - [231] Originally by: BoBoZoBo Assuming they have CCPs permission... I have no problem with these guys charging for production costs if they want to make a nice printed piece available for the community. It is expensive and time consuming to produce a nice book. HOWEVER, I agree that the information contained within the book should be made available to the entire community for free in a digital format. If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that. The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator. Charging for thier time to compile and design the book is something else,. Plenty of people here do that for free and CCP should not make a deal that messes with that community dynamic. Watch out, I have made that observation about the free online copy many times. It made no dent in these fanbois point of view.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:41:00 - [232] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found! Congratulations. It adds nothing to this discussion. There is nothing wrong with this. If CCP wants to sell map boks fine they are welcome to do so. I have a problem when individuals use in game content to make a profit. I.e ISK sellers, Charators Sellers and nbow obviously Map Book creators. If CCP want to sell ISK THEY should do it. If they want to have a book on the market THEY should sell it. Not some Yahoo from god knows where that provides ZERO consumer protections. Whats the difference between Random House Publishing and some guy with a printer? Neither of them are CCP. That book wasn't printed by CCP anymore than Serenity's maps. It has everything to do with this discussion- either third party resources being sold for money are bad, or they're not. Does it matter if the third party is a massive corporation or not? --------
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:41:00 - [233] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I am suggesting for many reasons that it is ill advised, and harmful for our community to 'allow' third party individuals to profit from in game content. Many disagree. They are welcome to their opinion. They also happen to be wrong. There is no right or wrong in this discussion. You argue that it is a bad thing. That is your opinion. Others argue that it's is a good move or that it doesn't matter. That is their opinion. Even if everyone agreed with you, that still wouldn't make you right or them wrong. The only thing that would make you right, would be if what you say comes to pass. Apparently the majority of the posters in this thread don't believe that will happen.
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:42:00 - [234] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative. Not really since alternatives are already available for free and others would come from it. It is still a book in the end and not everyone will keep it on their lap while playing. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:44:00 - [235] Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found! EVE Online: Official strategy guide. Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP! Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch! ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:44:00 - [236] Originally by: Bistot Kid Originally by: Patch86 Lol! I just did a google search on something, and look what I found! EVE Online: Official strategy guide. Apparently, CCP set the precedent of licensing out publishers to write and sell (AT A PROFIT) in game guides back in 2003. This is not the first time they've let someone sell a book, OP! Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch! Hehehe, yeah. Not exactly on my Xmas list... --------
Threv Echandari Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:45:00 - [237] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative. Would this disparity be aleviated by CCP providing a online PDF download for you? No, I still want the Spiral Bound nicely printed book and am willing to pay for it. (Once again Ombey's Maps provide much of the same info but different format) it is a convenenience not a neccesity and I don't mind paying for convenience. Thats like saying that because I buy a car that has a single disk player and they dont offer a multi disk CD changer, Pioneer can't sell me one... because it would give me an "advantage" over other drivers who have to manually change disks while driving and therefore have increased risk of having an accident. But I get you.. it would seem that your a Marxist/Socialist (and every body who doesn't have what everyone else has is a "victim" I guess) so any and all arguments to the contrary are anathema to you... End of Story really. Threv Caldari Prime > Luminaire
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:46:00 - [238] Originally by: Bistot Kid Did you see the 3 reviews of the book there? Ouch! And the only copies that are on sell are "used"... guess they all sent it back ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:49:00 - [239] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly If this is that case, if you could not afford to purchase the map book, would you not say you were being disadvantaged compared to those who could for game content? Considering of course this would be a CCP approved initative. Not really since alternatives are already available for free and others would come from it. It is still a book in the end and not everyone will keep it on their lap while playing. Many people have openly stated that Serenitys map book would help them mine, help them plan jumps, help them plan faster auto pilot routes, etc. That sounds like an advantage to me. I am sure many people would appreciate not being disadvantaged by having the opportunity to print of part of this book they desire. Serenitys book, with all the information it contains. Since the content is 100% CCP property I think that would be more than fair to keep the balance of the community.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:51:00 - [240] Originally by: BoBoZoBo If not then you just run the risk of the people who can afford to buy it have an advantage over those who cannot. Real life economics already create advantages for some.. we should try to mitigate that. That's life. Some people run X accounts. With a better PC. And a faster GFX card. And on a faster network connection. While their wife brings them beer. From the fridge on their yacht. Originally by: BoBoZoBo The cost should be limited to physical hard-material production that is beyond the capability of the content creator. Why should it be limited to that? How much do you think it costs CCP/WW to make the Eve CCG game cards? If it's overpriced it won't sell and they'll be left trying to shift stock at a bargain basement price. CCP used to sell bottles of Quafe which was a brave marketing move but it didn't work. I assume low volume sales mixed with a "use by" date that food products have mean it didn't make commercial sense. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:55:00 - [241] ok, i went to bed posting somthing on this last night and thought id just refresh it to see where it went... and WTF your still posting? Dude 1. Get a life. 2. Get over it. 3. your the only person with a problem with this it seems. If you dont like go quit you ******* whiner
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:56:00 - [242] Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 05/06/2007 15:58:29 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Many people have openly stated that Serenitys map book would help them mine, Not a miner, can't say, don't care. (except for the note below) Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly help them plan jumps, Jumplanner Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly help them plan faster auto pilot routes /me clicks on "Shorter route" in the Map interface. Don't need a book. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly etc. Need more cause so far... this book won't give me much of an advantage than the already available maps in pdf that I sometimes look for the real security of a 0.0 system. Note also that the book can't help in any way with dynamic belts/plexes spawning and disapearing so... still no advantage there. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Since the content is 100% CCP property I think that would be more than fair to keep the balance of the community. I still haven't see anything in this project being a menace to this community. In fact, the real danger is on Steele if he/she create a crappy book "a la" Eve Strategy guide. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:56:00 - [243] Originally by: Elissen Originally by: Buxaroo ...a very long post Thank you for your kind words, but I think you misunderstood me. What you said before that implied that running the Jumpplanner only costs time, while this is simply not true. A dedicated box like this goes for more then 10 times the amount you mentioned. But that's not the point. I can afford it and I still have enough money to go on vacation and the FanFest and the EON award ceremony. That's why I don't mind. It is the reason though to put up a donation button at the results page so that if somebody can spare a few bucks it will cut down on the costs hosting it. Last week somebody donated 10 euro for which I am grateful (still have to send the guy a thank you e-mail, been busy sorry!). I believe that if you make something and you can sell it (legally - as is this since it is with CCP's approval) you should do it. Some charge ISK for ingame services (hauling for example) or charge ISK for OOG services (signatures like you mentioned). Now it is a fact that physical items cost money to make in the first place, but even if it was free to make I still would not mind if somebody is earning some money for somehing EVE-related. Or if you choose so you can offer it for free. The only thing I hate is to start something without charging people and then add a charge later (after a year for example - and I do not mean a trial here since with a trial you know that it will cost you after the first month or so). Do I think that CCP is playing favorites? No, I don't believe that. While CCP as a corporation has never said anything about the Jumpplanner in the past (I don't believe that Hilmar knows the Jumpplanner for example), I do know that quite a few CCP employees love the Jumpplanner. I should have been a bit more clear in who I was replying to. The reply was meant for others as well not just aimed at you. And I had no idea you were paying that kind of money for that hosting. Ouch. And I can vouch for not wanting to pay for something after getting for free in the past. Counter Strike is a prime example. "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:00:00 - [244] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly charge us .. have to pay for EvEMon .. customer who will be screwed .. a premium type of player I might prefer 'ISK as motivation' model, but don't see how how this would be such dangerous step. Or, as long as the playfield is free and competition free, it's good to have alternative options (business models). With Eve's small playerbase and low percentage of typical buyers, the product would have to be really good. There is small danger if CCP starts to mess around in hope of extra cash: like allowing only the official EveMonXXX to fetch character sheets. But this precedent is nowhere close to such issues. -Lasse happy for all nifty tools
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:45:00 - [245] Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 16:50:41 Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 16:46:34 (to add, and yes, i probably will* buy one of Serenity's books.* You still don't get it, do you? Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly However those precious few who point out that for 10 years this sort of activity has been frowned upon. Players have been BANNED for similer activities in the past. Except... EON is published... and it costs money. It is the same thing. CCP doesn't produce EON, another company does. Quote: Selling in game content for cash has always resulted in plauyers being banned. Selling ISK, charactors, ships, stations, alliances... you name it... CCP has kicked people for much less. Whats different now? Serenity is not selling in-game content. He is selling 2-D maps that he created, in bound-book form, based upon CCP's intellectual property. He is not selling screenshots of maps, he's not selling screenshots of characters, he's not selling in-game assets, or in-game property. If I wrote a fan-fiction novel based in the world of Eve, and sold it for money, i would have to licence it from CCP. Serenity is selling a fan-created two dimensional map of eve, which he created, based on the world of eve. Quote: Whats so special about Serenity book of maps that warrents Sertenity to benefit financially while others are told it is against the EULA or simply banned? Well for one they are 4-color professionally printed and bound books, the content of which was hand-created by Serenity Steele. There. Bolded the important part for ya. Quote: Ebaying ISK. Ebaying Map Books. Ebaying Charactors. Spot the odd one out. Which one hasn't been made by CCP, and is not an in-game asset. You can't escrow a map book, because it is not a product that exisits within the game of EVE. Quote: It's all the same unless you are Serenity it seem. Don't you find that very interesting? No, it's all the same, unless you are a licenced CCP content provider, like, say, EON, or Serenity's maps, or, say, the comic book coming out based on the chronicles, or, hmm, let's think, the EVE CCG, oooh, or Prima's Official Strategy Guide? -----
jbob2000 Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:57:00 - [246] Forget this argument, wiggly jiggly is just trying to start some flames. Aside from that, this book will probably be available in the Eve Store. I actually cant believe there's an argument about this. Who gives a ****? Some people use Porches to get to work faster, while others drive Honda Civics. It's life. Get over it (or get a better job!). ________________________________ KIA Recruitment
Velocitee The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:45:00 - [247] Quote: But I get you.. it would seem that your a Marxist/Socialist (and every body who doesn't have what everyone else has is a "victim" I guess) so any and all arguments to the contrary are anathema to you... QFT
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:12:00 - [248] i agree with the op if this is allowed to happen then too many noobs will pay for it ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:13:00 - [249] So like, say CCP would decide tomorrow that they were going to publish a book containing strategic maps of the Eve universe and other bits of nice info, and add it to the Eve Online store ? Would you complain then ? Did you complain when they added t-shirts, mugs, pins and whatever else they sell (ive got no idea, not interested in merchandise in the least myself) ? So then, what If I told you that CCP is selling things, directly or indirectly, that they did not come up with themselves ? Would that be bad ? It wouldn't would it ? Now, say that for one or two of those things they end up paying someone else for thinking of the product. Would that be bad then ? Still wouldn't would it ? Then, how large is the step to let that someone sell it themself, thus taking the financial risk as well, for a percentage of the profit (or for free even) ? Would that then, thinking logically, be bad ? [center] Old blog
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:15:00 - [250] Originally by: SiJira i agree with the op if this is allowed to happen then too many noobs will pay for it AND?!?!?!?!?!?! What is wrong with that?!?!?!?!?!? _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Daggon BIgon Dako Ltd.	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:20:00 - [251] z o m g noes. panic can i have your stuff?
Borasao	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:21:00 - [252] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed. It not the book thats the issue. It's the fact that CCP is allowing a independent party to charge for EvE related third party products. Once that happens, how much longer do you thing EvE Mon would be free? Or any of the other popular tools? Who cares... the writers of those tools should have the right to charge for them if CCP gives them permission to charge for them.
Xrak Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:23:00 - [253] Bitter much? Go back to your hole troll. Sig stolen from Tekka. Evemail him for details about free sigs. <3
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:41:00 - [254] Originally by: Velocitee Quote: But I get you.. it would seem that your a Marxist/Socialist (and every body who doesn't have what everyone else has is a "victim" I guess) so any and all arguments to the contrary are anathema to you... QFT You know, after reading all of his replies and so on I agree 100%. This guy has a political agenda and just wants to shrill his rhetoric on everyone who doesn't agree with his way. I think he is playing the wrong game. If I didn't know better, I would postulate that he may be an alt of a certain alliance that likes to cause these kinds of problems where there are none just to get players feathers ruffled about nothing except to show that maybe (gasp!) CCP just....just might be a business interested in making money! The book would in no way give a higher playing field to those who own it other than a quick and nice looking way to go about planning things. Myself, I would probably buy this book because I like the way it looks and its nice out of game merchandise to have for memorabilia. "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:50:00 - [255] Originally by: Buxaroo If I didn't know better, I would postulate that he may be an alt of a certain alliance that likes to cause these kinds of problems where there are none just to get players feathers ruffled about nothing except to show that maybe (gasp!) CCP just....just might be a business interested in making money! Either that or he is unhappy because BoB asked a Dev to take away his cookie. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:39:00 - [256] Hm, i just saw this thread and thought: wow, 9 pages, there must be something interesting in it! I got some laughs, but all in all i was a bit disappointed. Id like to say sthg about the topic but everything has been said, really. "Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?" "Yes, his thread was hilarious!" "Yeah, and i even posted in it!"
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:23:00 - [257] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter "Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?" "Yes, his thread was hilarious!" "Yeah, and i even posted in it!" This is sig worthy \o/ ----- Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter "Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?" "Yes, his thread was hilarious!" "Yeah, and i even posted in it!"
Syril Mert Dawn of a new Empire Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:36:00 - [258] It would be really cool to have a good, high quality hard copy with such a high degree of details and information. I wonder if that jiggly character has ever had a real paying job in his life.... People get paid for their work. End of story.
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:43:00 - [259] I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. Another one bites the dust.
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:43:00 - [260] I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. Another one bites the dust.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:47:00 - [261] Originally by: Kage Psychodin I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. As has been pointed out (and buried in the 10 page monster ), this is far from a first time. They even licensed out an official strategy guide to a publishing giant before- essentially exactly what this is. --------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:47:00 - [262] Originally by: Kage Psychodin I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. As has been pointed out (and buried in the 10 page monster ), this is far from a first time. They even licensed out an official strategy guide to a publishing giant before- essentially exactly what this is. --------
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:51:00 - [263] Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 22:51:42 Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 22:50:37 Originally by: Kage Psychodin I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. sigh Serenity's maps is not comparable to EVEMON. It is equivalent to EON, another publication which is sold, for profit, and made by someone other than CCP. The fact is that the precedent for a publication based on eve already exists, with EON. edit: damn, patch86 beat me to it - and yes, Prima's Official strategy guide also is of equivalent nature. ----- Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter "Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?" "Yes, his thread was hilarious!" "Yeah, and i even posted in it!"
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:51:00 - [264] Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 22:51:42 Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 05/06/2007 22:50:37 Originally by: Kage Psychodin I sadly...have to AGREE with Wiggly. There is some glimmer of logic within the back and forth of it all, and it is simply that before, every tool provided, every scrap of info you could find was free. CCP would not allow sales on it before, which all in all was not a bad idea. It feels like the argument with net neutrality. Because the rules changed, The resulting effect COULD happen. it creates a disadvantage, (although I doubt someone won't take to reword and rescan many images or collect their own now to compete with a free comprehensive version, a noteworthy task especially if it covers all the belts like his would) one that while it obviously has no direct disadvantage, it makes picking and choosing as opposed to better intel and relying in game to "Find" certain things, right down to ore, and from what it sounded like, Rats, stations. It isn't a bad idea, its just bad that this is the first time CCP said "this is okay to charge for" because they WOULD NOT LET anyone before it charge, and indeed when others see profitability, who knows. That is what wiggly was getting at, although I don't think he was away of the open source that is EVEMON's status. (and how that is pretty much legally irreversable. sigh Serenity's maps is not comparable to EVEMON. It is equivalent to EON, another publication which is sold, for profit, and made by someone other than CCP. The fact is that the precedent for a publication based on eve already exists, with EON. edit: damn, patch86 beat me to it - and yes, Prima's Official strategy guide also is of equivalent nature. ----- Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter "Do you remember the Jiggly Wiggly guy?" "Yes, his thread was hilarious!" "Yeah, and i even posted in it!"
Morela Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:08:00 - [265] Personally, I'd actually pay for a leatherbound book of Eve history (good luck in Getting an accurate history).. Nothing wrong with someone creating something like this an charging a resonable fee for it.. If they put all the work into it, they deserve to be rewarded for said effort.. If people dont' want to buy it they won't.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:49:00 - [266] Originally by: Patch86 As has been pointed out (and buried in the 10 page monster ), this is far from a first time. They even licensed out an official strategy guide to a publishing giant before- essentially exactly what this is. Although as long as it's clearly labled as unofficial and observes fair use rights, CCP can't stop you publishing anyway. See: Kopp vs Blizzard //Maya
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:01:00 - [267] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Patch86 As has been pointed out (and buried in the 10 page monster ), this is far from a first time. They even licensed out an official strategy guide to a publishing giant before- essentially exactly what this is. Although as long as it's clearly labled as unofficial and observes fair use rights, CCP can't stop you publishing anyway. See: Kopp vs Blizzard Oh, this one's official all right... --------
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:02:00 - [268] Yes, just making a point... //Maya
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:04:00 - [269] Originally by: Maya Rkell Yes, just making a point... Interesting stuff, though. Does that mean if Serenity decided to publish the map book without permission, CCP couldn't stop it anyway? --------
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:06:00 - [270] Good question. The answer is that maps are generally handled differently from other forms of documentation for fair use, however I'm not sure if the fact that they are maps of an unreal place has implications on their classification, or if indeed they would be considered not a map but a chart or a plan (each of which has different implications). So really? I don't know. //Maya
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:46:00 - [271] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Maya Rkell Yes, just making a point... Interesting stuff, though. Does that mean if Serenity decided to publish the map book without permission, CCP couldn't stop it anyway? It means if he did, he would be in breach of CCPs EULA and subject to civil if not criminal sanctions.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:50:00 - [272] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 04:50:17 Originally by: Morela Personally, I'd actually pay for a leatherbound book of Eve history (good luck in Getting an accurate history).. Nothing wrong with someone creating something like this an charging a resonable fee for it.. If they put all the work into it, they deserve to be rewarded for said effort.. If people dont' want to buy it they won't. You have just spelled out your support of ISK resellers. Is this your own personal position or do you speak for BoB as a whole? ISK resellers put in the hard work, so they should be allowed to be compensated according to your statement right?
EFF ONEF1 Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:01:00 - [273] If it was presented nicely with nice big color pictures id prolly buy it. need something to read while taking a dump. ----------------------------------------------- I have been known to take shuttles to various parts of 0.0 Why? I find it relaxing listening to the soothing voice of my autopilot.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:04:00 - [274] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 04:50:17 Originally by: Morela Personally, I'd actually pay for a leatherbound book of Eve history (good luck in Getting an accurate history).. Nothing wrong with someone creating something like this an charging a resonable fee for it.. If they put all the work into it, they deserve to be rewarded for said effort.. If people dont' want to buy it they won't. You have just spelled out your support of ISK resellers. Is this your own personal position or do you speak for BoB as a whole? ISK resellers put in the hard work, so they should be allowed to be compensated according to your statement right? Give it up, you are getting farther and farther away from reality trying to prove your point. I'm not even going to try to explain how far off you are because if you can't see itthe cause is lost anyways <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:14:00 - [275] I fail to see the problem. Noone force you to use this. These things are not necessary for the gameplay. So? Let them be greedy if you want and don't feed them (pay) unless you want to.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:18:00 - [276] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 05:19:09 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby the cause is lost anyways Because you say so? Consensus rarely results in the correct course of action. Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. EvEMon takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand simple fashion. Serenitys Map book takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand and simple fashion. Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using withone difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. This disparity is WRONG. If there was a free version of this map book this disparity would be gone and the EULA would be respected. DON'T bother to mention the 'other' free map websites. They are just that... 'other' and not this book. Many claim that Serenity deserves to 'get paid' for his work. I disagree entirely because there is limited if any original input into his work. It is meaerly a collection of in game maps and icons for interesting point of reference. All of which are found in game and NOT his creation. Kudos for putting it all together in a spiral book Serenity... but I'd rather print off the regions I frequent myself. But you don't give us that choice. We have to PAY for the whole thing like it is some coffee table reading materiel. It gives an unfair advatage to those with the book, and CCP should NOT allow it to be sold. Period. Especially when every other third party developer that put together a tool did so without seeking a 'payday' at the expense of game balance.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:33:00 - [277] They are not the same. Serenity's book in no way violates the EULA as since he is entering a contract with CCP he isn't bound by it. EvEMon isn't under contract and hence cannot charge for it without violating the EULA. There is no earth(Space)-shattering "advantage" buying this book would give you compared to using the freely available ones. Serenity is under no obligation to provide this book for free for any reason. This is a CCP-sanctioned business venture. It is no different than if CCP was doing it themselves and charging for it. You really need to give it up, the cause you are arguing is rather far removed from Law, the EULA, standard business practices and just about every other aspect that would govern something like this. I hope you aren't planning on going into Law or Business when you figure out what you are doing in life, you are off to a bad start <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:43:00 - [278] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 05:43:06 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby There is no earth(Space)-shattering "advantage" buying this book would give you compared to using the freely available ones. So you agree on some level that there is some intrinsic value or advantage of this book by having it verus not having it. Might not be earth(Space)-shattering "advantage", but it is there. You have just made my point. It is irrelevent how much of a disparity is created, it is a disparity that can only be closed by US the players forking out cash to obtain the same resource materiel. In the past CCP have said to create such a situation was against their EULA. This time they are goign against 10 years of established precedence. I think this is a threat to the EvE community.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:51:00 - [279] Oh god, its back... Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 05:19:09 Because you say so? Consensus rarely results in the correct course of action. No, but its often the only way to get things done without genocide. Quote: Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. No, one is a GNU licensed software application under the implied license from the data base dumps. i.e. You may use our data but not sell this without asking. One is a graphically designed, book under a separate license, that we can only guess at because that is between CCP and Serenity. Quote: Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using withone difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. This disparity is WRONG. Get a better job then. Thats like saying you are offended that you neighbor could afford a pool but you can't. Quote: Kudos for putting it all together in a spiral book Serenity... but I'd rather print off the regions I frequent myself. But you don't give us that choice. We have to PAY for the whole thing like it is some coffee table reading materiel. I hate to break this to you, little alt, but that is exactly what it is, no matter what the marketing says. I'll buy it regardless. Quote: It gives an unfair advantage to those with the book, and CCP should NOT allow it to be sold. Period. You've claimed this and EULA breach ad nauseum in your drivel. Please provide examples.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:01:00 - [280] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 06/06/2007 06:01:21 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So you agree on some level that there is some intrinsic value or advantage of this book by having it verus not having it. Might not be earth(Space)-shattering "advantage", but it is there. You have just made my point. What? Give me a break. There is no more "intristic value" than any other item that is available. This is more of value for a curiosity, not because it will have an in-game impact. Don't take me out of context to try to prove your delusions. Quote: It is irrelevent how much of a disparity is created, it is a disparity that can only be closed by US the players forking out cash to obtain the same resource materiel. There IS no disparity. None, zilch, nada. There is nothing of game value in this book that is not available for free elsewhere. Hence your entire presumption is wrong. Quote: In the past CCP have said to create such a situation was against their EULA. WRONG. The have said that to create such a situation WITHOUT PERMISSION was against their EULA. You are correct that the EULA does NOT give you the right to create something using their intellectual property. The secondary contract, WHICH IS WHAT SERENITY IS STRIVING FOR, gives that right. CCP has given those rights to many people/companies, including everyone that sells GTCs, the publishing company that makes their posters, the person taht created the original players' guide, White Wolf's development staff, etc. This does NOT violate their EULA in any way, nor does it create any dangerous precedent. Now if CCP ALSO told Ombrey to stop making and distributing his maps, you would have a point and I would be on your side. But they haven't, and they won't. It is GOOD for CCP's business to have freely available things for players, it is ALSO good for their business to have commercial items for EvE. Free things give the players what they need, commercial items give EvE an aire of legitimacy. Screaming that CCP is violating thier own EULA by entering a contract for their IP with someone else makes their player-base look like lunatics <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:04:00 - [281] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 03:57:07 Originally by: Mysticaa Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity should be allowed to distribute this free to the community and we can print it ourselves. Pleanty of other people have produced loads of things open source and free. Their time was a gift to us all and having CCP allow Serenity to make money is a slap in their faces. There already is a free version available Ombey's 2d Maps How much longer do you think they are going to stay free once they see Serenity is getting paid for his? I am not concerned about Serenitys product so much as I am concerned about the state of future development of third party tools / services. Once one gets paid for their efforts... everyone derserves to get paid. Thats fair. But we the community loses if that happens. You are both making a groundless assumption and ignoring the particulars of the case. Firstly, you assume that eve-maps making a profit by selling a ring binder of glossy maps will set off a cascade of demands by the creators of third-party utilities to be paid for their efforts. This is unlikely, given the absolute slew of free utilities for other games such as WoW. None of them has experienced a widespread conversion to a pay model. Secondly, there already exists a free alternative (Ombey's maps), essentially an option to an option, and it's likely that even IF a bunch of pay-to-use utilities come out, other people will create free/*****ed versions. The idea that this will somehow limit player choice is silly. By charging a small amount, we could actually see greater choice in optional add-ons to games. Not like Xbox Live Marketplace, which is prone to profiteering on added content, but like choosing the options on a new car: Everything you NEED is already there, and you're not actually going to have that much better of a car if you add leather seats, a golden Porsche logo in the dash, etc, but if you REALLY want to...the choice is there. Having (or not having) these maps isn't going to be a gamebreaking difference, it's just handy and enjoyable. Furthermore, Serenity Steele is one of the few trusted names in the EvE universe, and for him to pull some sort of nickel and dime scam on selling a 2D map book is not even worth his effort. It does not fit his profile, and it does not make any economic sense. That he is discussing the project with CCP only shows that he is doing due diligence and making sure he doesn't step on any toes. If Serenity Steele's product is as good as advertised, it's probably worth throwing a few dollars at to cover the time, effort, materials, and shipping involved. This is no threat to the community. But it is awfully good publicity for him.
Dukayn	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:00:00 - [282] I wonder if jiggly boycotts the Prima guides too. They are no different, except they probably provide more helpful info than a map book.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:06:00 - [283] Originally by: Adam Weishaupt You are both making a groundless assumption and ignoring the particulars of the case. Firstly, you assume that eve-maps making a profit by selling a ring binder of glossy maps will set off a cascade of demands by the creators of third-party utilities to be paid for their efforts. This is unlikely, Unlikely. Well... is it worth the risk then for a map book? I say it is not. For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. I do not think what Serenity is offering is worth spitting in the face of all the other developers who worked so hard for free for so long.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:08:00 - [284] Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 07:09:56 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 06/06/2007 06:01:21 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly So you agree on some level that there is some intrinsic value or advantage of this book by having it verus not having it. Might not be earth(Space)-shattering "advantage", but it is there. You have just made my point. What? Give me a break. There is no more "intristic value" than any other item that is available. This is more of value for a curiosity, not because it will have an in-game impact. Don't take me out of context to try to prove your delusions. Then why isn't it being made available for all EvE players for free via an electonic download? Why is it pay for hard copy only? Those that want to buy it as a book will have their opportunity, while those that only wish to print certain sections will be able to do so for free. Why should Serenity get a free ride past the EULA while all other suppliers and developers are told they can not garner any recompense for their efforts.
Dukayn	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:24:00 - [285] Edited by: Dukayn on 06/06/2007 07:23:29 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. http://www.amazon.ca/Eve-Online-Genesis-Official-Strategy/dp/0761542434
Zoi Opia Raw Edge	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:35:00 - [286] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Why should Serenity get a free ride past the EULA Please stop using the term EULA as it does not apply. Thank you.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:38:00 - [287] Originally by: Dukayn Edited by: Dukayn on 06/06/2007 07:23:29 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. http://www.amazon.ca/Eve-Online-Genesis-Official-Strategy/dp/0761542434 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly no individual
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:41:00 - [288] Originally by: Zoi Opia Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Why should Serenity get a free ride past the EULA Please stop using the term EULA as it does not apply. Thank you. It does apply untill there is a licencing agreement in place. Currently there is NO licencing agreement and I am suggesting there should NEVER be one for this project. Serenity is a player. Sernity agrees to the EULA EVERY time he logs in. He is looking to 'get around' the very rules that appply to us all. I do not feel this is fair for aformentioned reasons. Now please stop telling me to to stop quoting the EULA.
Stella Stardust	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:04:00 - [289] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Now please stop telling me to to stop quoting the EULA. This website right here contains all the mapinformation. To browse it and write down all the information about jumps between systems, how many asteroidbelts there are etc etc etc, you don't need to log into the game, or even log into this website. Or agree to any EULA. So stop quoting the EULA!!! And about no individual benefitting from the Prima guides - there are actual people writing those things, and getting paid for it, so this is no different.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:19:00 - [290] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly It does apply untill there is a licencing agreement in place. Currently there is NO licencing agreement Proof or STFU...
Odinegras	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:21:00 - [291] Edited by: Odinegras on 06/06/2007 08:20:43 Wiggly your current argument holds no water, its like you saying i cant have my laptop running with ombeys map open on it as it gives me an out of game advantage over players. So should all players receive a free laptop because this is possible? Or maybe ombeys map and all other helpful out of game things should be banned as they give people like me with a second computer an out of game advantage.... Maybe everyone should have there IQ means tested before they load the game and have a different difficulty level so that everyone is on an equal playing feel, god forbid i have an out of game advantage because of my genius level IQ!!! But seriously Wiggly i see what your saying, you should really not be so paranoid. This guy isnt going to rip off his customer, scamming in real life is illegal. CCP arent going to change there policy with regard to not charging for new content. But CCP making money on Merchandising (which infact this book is probably more like, even tho this is somewhat like a stratergy guide) isnt a problem for me, let them fill there boots and make the money while they can as we all know that mmorpgs die a death one day and tbh oveur and the rest of them will deserve a good pention when that time comes :D
Spooky Woman	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:54:00 - [292] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. I do not think what Serenity is offering is worth spitting in the face of all the other developers who worked so hard for free for so long. So... if Serenity started a company (Serenity Publishing?)... then you wouldn't have a problem with it?
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:59:00 - [293] I'm curious Wiggly.....is this your thesis project for your Marxist course down at the Community College? You seem to spew alot of phrases that don't seem to be supported by your apparent intellectual level. And everyone here is still mission the point. THIS IS NOT A SERENITY STEELE PRODUCT! It is a product created and assembled by Serenity Steele and OPTIONED by CCP for publication by White Wolf Limited, who is, in essence, CCP. There was a merger, in case no one noticed. That doesn't make it a third-party product...it makes it a CCP product. The same will be true, (I'm sure) with the upcoming EVE Comics; White Wolf, and thus CCP, has their own printing arm (including comics...I own several of the Vampire: The Masquerade comics myself...and love them.) And, if the buzz is to be believed, somewhere in the bowels of CCP's cold and leaky Icelandic basement, there's a team at work on a new World of Darkness game. So your arguement is moot. As others have pointed out, CCP/WWL has a mission statement, and rule Number One of any mission statement is MAKE MONEY. CCP/WWL can do that with their intellectual property in any way they see fit....up to and including optioning a manual for publication created by someone from outside the company. Serenity isn't offering the maps free online for printing because CCP/WWL does not want him to. They see it as a capital investment, and shipping something for retail sale with your logo on it that can be obtained for free makes absolutely no business sense. For anyone still doubting, see the link to Serenity's thread a few pages back...it's where Wiggle-Jiggle first started trolling....3 posts after Serenity announced that Oveur had given consent and White Wolf had decided to publish it. So, please, quit trolling, and if it bothers you so badly, by all means...quit now before you see the game overrun by the Electronic Bourgeoisie you fear so much. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:24:00 - [294] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. EvEMon takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand simple fashion. Serenitys Map book takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand and simple fashion. Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using with one difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. And exactly what advantages does EveMon give that are in anyway comparable to Serenity's book?
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:26:00 - [295] Originally by: Spooky Woman Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. I do not think what Serenity is offering is worth spitting in the face of all the other developers who worked so hard for free for so long. So... if Serenity started a company (Serenity Publishing?)... then you wouldn't have a problem with it? Nope, not if it was provided free to the eve subcriber base. This trend sets a dangerous precedent. What's to stop CCP from saying... heck EvEMon is a pretty cool program. Lets write our own and change the servers so the existing EvEMon versions won't interface with out servers and sell our copies to the EvE community? Whats to stop somebody elese doingthe same thing? I could write up a slick business plan and CCP is guarenteed to make a bunch of money off of it. How would you all feel about that? You lose EvEmon and have to PAY for a equitable replacement and I get to buy a new car. Trust me, this is the next step once CCP start to capitalise on the secondary market. This is a dangerous precedent to set.
Wiggly Jiggly	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:29:00 - [296] Originally by: Vala Draaken Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. EvEMon takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand simple fashion. Serenitys Map book takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand and simple fashion. Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using with one difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. And exactly what advantages does EveMon give that are in anyway comparable to Serenity's book? Advantages are advantages. They do not need to be comparable. Whatever made you think they needed to be?
Onnawa Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:32:00 - [297] There is no "Secondary Market" you fool. There's only the Market. And CCP gets to dictate how it is managed and run. If you don't like it, term your chars. And if CCP nuked EveMon and wrote their own, I'd like it just fine. It's their choice, their product, and their servers. You're missing the fact that we don't have any power over it. The only powers we have as the consumer is to buy, or not. Pure, simple, period. _____________________________________ I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania.
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.06.06 09:35:00 - [298] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly I could write up a slick business plan and CCP is guarenteed to make a bunch of money off of it. How would you all feel about that? You lose EvEmon and have to PAY for a equitable replacement and I get to buy a new car. Someone will provide something like it, for free. Your assumption that once one thing gets licensed, everything will get licensed is false. Examples of the strategy guide and EON have been given. Also if EveMon gets licensed, someone else will make something like it for free. I seriously doubt you can get a car from the sales (or Serenity Steele from the sales of the map books, for that matter). As for the maps, a free alternative already exists (Thanks Ombey). =AFK=
DeTox MinRohim Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:19:00 - [299] Whatever you say about the EULA, you're still using it upside down. 1 - The EULA won't apply since Serenity will have a separate deal, the EULA will not interfere. Also, the EULA bounding the player doesn't make him a prisoner of it without any possibility to have another deal on the side for a project that CCP is giving the OK. It is still CCP's product and they do whatever they want with it. 2 - Evemon can't be changed of license. Get over it. It's GPL and even if the Evemon guys decide that you must pay to get/use it, all code from the past versions were free to get (and you'll get the code also if you pay for the latest version since it would still be GPL). If you didn't get the code before, I suggest you get it now... Before the apocalypse you are predicting happens. 3 - Evemon team, Rigor, Eve-dev team, Ombey's, etc., etc., etc., chose to create something and they made it available for free. It's a choice. If they didn't want it to be free, they would have gone through the same process to ask CCP about a possible remuneration. That's the part where they wouldn't have had the choice. Maybe CCP would have said yes... maybe not. They chose to create what they are offering today. Nobody forced them to. Originally by: "Wiggly Jiggly" It is NOT the product, or individual that is in question. It is the endorsement of CCP to allow an individual to get paid for use of their intelectual property to the detrement of the greater community. Do you WANT third party products to be 'pay for use'? Do you want there to be two types of players in EvE? Those that can afford all the optional extra and those that can not? Now there seems to be your biggest problem. Maybe you are a GPL freak with the misconception that because it's GPL, it must be free of charge (even though GPL is not the subject), or you are poor or without a credit card and you want the book for free or you are bitter that a player might have a bitsy of money out of his work. In any case, in more than 11 pages, you still did not give a single valid advantage or valid argument how it would hurt the community. Numerous games or projects created a niche for other people to live on their creations that were related to the said project. Some are very strong and created vast market and job pool. My Eve subscription is almost entirely paid by this kind of work as I'm co-dev of a content management system that is GPL and I design stuff that I sell and I'm charging for services related to that. What I do and the way I do it is covered by the terms of the GNU/GPL license the CMS is based on and there is nothing you can do about it. Originally by: "Wiggly Jiggly" If your answer is yes, then you also should support ISK for cash, macro mining and leveling services because it's the exact same arguement. Saying "yes" doesn't mean at all that the examples you give are valid. It's to CCP to chose if a method of gaining an advantage is valid. And since you have no definite argument for Serenity's book in terms of advantage anyway, this point is moot... Oh yea sorry, someone said it would help him to mine. Originally by: "Wiggly Jiggly" CCP originally didn't want ANY third party products to capitalise on their intelectual property finacially. I see no reason to change this. Fortunatly for CCP AND for the community, it's not your choice that counts. ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink
Spooky Woman	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:25:00 - [300] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Spooky Woman Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. I do not think what Serenity is offering is worth spitting in the face of all the other developers who worked so hard for free for so long. So... if Serenity started a company (Serenity Publishing?)... then you wouldn't have a problem with it? Nope, not if it was provided free to the eve subcriber base. This trend sets a dangerous precedent. What's to stop CCP from saying... heck EvEMon is a pretty cool program. Lets write our own and change the servers so the existing EvEMon versions won't interface with out servers and sell our copies to the EvE community? Whats to stop somebody elese doingthe same thing? I could write up a slick business plan and CCP is guarenteed to make a bunch of money off of it. How would you all feel about that? You lose EvEmon and have to PAY for a equitable replacement and I get to buy a new car. Trust me, this is the next step once CCP start to capitalise on the secondary market. This is a dangerous precedent to set. Bare with me, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying... 1) So you think that all third-party guide books etc. should be freely available to the public, e.g. like this book: EVE Guide Book. 2) About CCP killing of EveMon. Whether we like it or not, isn't it CCP's right to do so? I mean, they do own the rights to EVE, right? 3) So basically you're afraid that CCP is going to take advantage of their game being popular to make more money? So the problem isn't really Serenity, but CCP?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:37:00 - [301] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Dukayn Edited by: Dukayn on 06/06/2007 07:23:29 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly For 10 YEARS no individual has been allowed to benefit from CCP intelectual property. http://www.amazon.ca/Eve-Online-Genesis-Official-Strategy/dp/0761542434 Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly no individual You never did answer my question, by the by. What is the difference between a 3rd party consisting of an unsigned author having a book printed by CCP's publisher-of-choice, and a third party consisting of an author working for one of the major publishing houses? Or to put it another way- what is the difference between a publishing giant (who has nothing to do with CCP) getting permission to print a strategy guide (quite probably including maps) and sell it for a profit, and an individual (who has nothing to do with CCP) getting permission to print a map book and sell it for a profit? Or to put it a third way, are you more at ease with a large corporation (who has nothing to do with CCP) with a history of selling over priced and low quality books gaining permission to publish a strategy guide, than you are with an individual gaining similar permission to publish the fruits of their own individual hard work in a fashion that might make them a profit? Or to sum it up in a fourth way- are you a capitalist, a socialist, or an anarchist? A capitalist would say "I don't give a damn who publishes what, as long as the quality is high and the price is right". An anarchist would say "The ownership of any information by any party is illogical and immoral, so there's no reason I should have to pay for anything". A socialist would say "The work of any individual should be rewarded proportionate to the effort put in to the project" (and seeing as a publishing giant like Prima pays the author a tiny fraction of the total profits, with the rest going to share holders, executives, and all manner of bureaucratic black holes, paying the independent author direct is by far preferable). Not really sure how else to ask the question... --------
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:59:00 - [302] Guys, why do you keep feeding the troll?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:59:00 - [303] Originally by: Sian Tairnesh Guys, why do you keep feeding the troll? Funsies? --------
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:01:00 - [304] Edited by: Sian Tairnesh on 06/06/2007 11:00:46 Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Sian Tairnesh Guys, why do you keep feeding the troll? Funsies? Aw... Well, ok. I admit that if I hadn't got so much work to do I'd join. But still, someone had to ask The QuestionÖ.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:25:00 - [305] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. EvEMon takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand simple fashion. Serenitys Map book takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand and simple fashion. Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using withone difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. This disparity is WRONG. Neither provides any great advantage to the player. The map book is more of a nice coffee table book or bathroom read than a great advantage. A way to work out what you're going to do without having to be sat at the PC 24/7. And EveMon tells you nothing you can't find out in other ways. Personally I plan my skill training using a pen and a peice of paper. ZOMG! EVE players should be banned from using paper, it gives an unfair advantage! Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Many claim that Serenity deserves to 'get paid' for his work. I disagree entirely because there is limited if any original input into his work. It is meaerly a collection of in game maps and icons for interesting point of reference. All of which are found in game and NOT his creation. By this logic we shouldn't pay for maps in RL. They are merely a collection of images of real hills, roads and motorways for interesting point of reference with limited if any original work. All of which are actually found in RL (OMG!) and NOT their creation. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Kudos for putting it all together in a spiral book Serenity... but I'd rather print off the regions I frequent myself. But you don't give us that choice. We have to PAY for the whole thing like it is some coffee table reading materiel. Now you're starting to get the point. It's coffee table material for the EVE pilot who has everything. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly It gives an unfair advatage to those with the book, and CCP should NOT allow it to be sold. Period. But then you go and lose it again. Hmmm maybe I should start a thread asking to have you banned coz you use EveMon and I don't and it's an unfair advantage. Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Especially when every other third party developer that put together a tool did so without seeking a 'payday' at the expense of game balance. You really can't compare software, especially open source like EveMon, and a book. As a programmer myself I can tell you part of the reason the guys who write tools like EveMon do so is to learn. They may not be making any money out of it but they're learning more about programming, data structures, UI, etc which will help them make money in their jobs and they're having fun. Yes, programmers do it for fun. Plus they don't have to spend money on manufacturing and distribution like you do with a book, most programmers already have some form of webspace they can use to host the project. At the end of the day you're a question mark. Why are you so bothered about the EVE community? You haven't even been part of it long enough to get a forum portrait. If you had you'd know that Serenity has been working on this book for a very long time and afaik you're the only person who has expressed these omfg the sky is falling opinions. Or is your main hiding behind the anonymity of a freshly created alt? My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
Ozstar Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:34:00 - [306] Edited by: Ozstar on 06/06/2007 11:33:06 I may buy two copies now, just to **** Wiggly off.
Malaan Tabfassh	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:43:00 - [307] I wouldn't buy a book ... if there would be 2x2 meters poster of the EVE universe in the CCP shop :). Anyway, book sounds good. When you don't want to buy it, you don't have to.
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:49:00 - [308] Edited by: Iyanah on 06/06/2007 11:51:10 Originally by: PostWithYourMain Nobody would pay money for it, case closed. exactly. besides, merchandising is pretty common for online games. hell eve already has t-shirts, caps, mugs, etc. it was only a matter of time before other companies started writing strategy guides, or some such nonsense. this kind of thing happens, and seems to be growing in popularity. i can't see how it could possibly be a "threat" to anything but the wallets of stupid people. EDIT: as an addition, i would state that things like eve mon, etc would never end up requiring payment. why? because someone else would just make and distribute it, or somethign similar for free. people are all the same: if they don't HAVE to pay for something, they won't. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:59:00 - [309] Originally by: Ozstar Edited by: Ozstar on 06/06/2007 11:33:06 I may buy two copies now, just to **** Wiggly off. Hmmm, maybe Wiggly is an alt of Serenity, posting contrary and inflammatory trollage in an attempt to get people to do just that... T2 Tinfoil Hats anyone?
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:52:00 - [310] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 06/06/2007 12:51:30 The OP seriously need to separate his two issues with this. The first being that its against the EULA and CCP allowing for exlusive rights to another individual. 1) Its not against the EULA. The EULA covers content of the game. Not information found in the game. If you keep claiming that the EULA covers this, you are either, as others have said already, a troll or lacking basic reading or comprehension skills. 2) Saying that CCP has denied this option for other people for 10 years is a blatantly obvious a wrong statement as MM publishing is publishing EON - and that idea was born from them being players too. And even then you have no prrof that they have denied this option to everyone in the past 10 years. The fact that CCP selects to facilitate the sale is irrelevant. They have allowed a second party to create and profit from a product that is Eve related. You are so far of base, truth and understanding here, that you degrade any other claims you have regarding this. That being whether its a good direction for the community. I am not about to agree with you here, but at least thats a valid discussion. As someone else have pointed out, there are a ton of factors out there that can improve your Eve performance - quite a few of them way more costly and way more enabling, than what this book will go for and do for any potential owner. So before you start shooting at the Strategic Maps, perhaps you should convince CCP that all players should play on standardized equipment and bandwidth? In Serenitys case its a question of him doing the book and selling it - or not doing the book, I would presume. In that case I like the option. Being able to buy it is better than it not being there. It is perhaps another matter if this starts happening to tools, that by somewhat rightful claim should be in the game. Such a claim would be hard to prove though - as it would have to cover a defect in the game, not a nice to have. But until then, you should just be grateful for the free tools that are made available and recognize that them being so is totally up the creators. I know Elissen, and I have an inkling of an idea as to how much time he puts into the JumpPlanner. If he somewhere down the line got a construction set up in agreement with CCP that he could charge a reasonable amount for for it, I would not deem that unfair or unwarranted. Its not his intention though, and you can just be thankful for that. And that kind of attitude is way to prevalent, to be concerned that a deal between CCP and Serenity about publishing the book for a small profit either way, would make the community available tools slowly dwindle into pay as you go. First of all there are nnot many tools out there, that does not have counterparts. And they are all build on information that is freely available. Personally I have had the Strategic Maps prototype in my hands. And its a bloody sweet piece of work. Not something I would own to gain an advantage. But because its pretty and Eve related. Definately buying.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:10:00 - [311] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Maya Rkell Yes, just making a point... Interesting stuff, though. Does that mean if Serenity decided to publish the map book without permission, CCP couldn't stop it anyway? It means if he did, he would be in breach of CCPs EULA and subject to civil if not criminal sanctions. Cite? Are you even remotely aware of the difference between civil and criminal law and the international laws involved here? Sheesh The EULA is not relevant, it's an issue of copyright and fair use. There's no chance whatsoever I myself will buy a maps book, but if Serenity has secured publishing, I say good luck! //Maya
Shinji Seto Minmatar Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:34:00 - [312] I would buy the book, just to **** off wiggly for wasting my time with a useless troll thread. "Outlaw" This was the name given to those who roam the universe with only his freedom as his guide.
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:32:00 - [313] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 06/06/2007 05:19:09 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby the cause is lost anyways Because you say so? Consensus rarely results in the correct course of action. Serenity book is the exact same thing as EvEMon. EvEMon takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand simple fashion. Serenitys Map book takes in game information and presents it in a easy to understand and simple fashion. Both provide advantages to the EvE player for using withone difference. One is free, the other can only be obtain by payment. This disparity is WRONG. If there was a free version of this map book this disparity would be gone and the EULA would be respected. DON'T bother to mention the 'other' free map websites. They are just that... 'other' and not this book. Many claim that Serenity deserves to 'get paid' for his work. I disagree entirely because there is limited if any original input into his work. It is meaerly a collection of in game maps and icons for interesting point of reference. All of which are found in game and NOT his creation. Kudos for putting it all together in a spiral book Serenity... but I'd rather print off the regions I frequent myself. But you don't give us that choice. We have to PAY for the whole thing like it is some coffee table reading materiel. It gives an unfair advatage to those with the book, and CCP should NOT allow it to be sold. Period. Especially when every other third party developer that put together a tool did so without seeking a 'payday' at the expense of game balance. actully, the maps don't look anything like in-game. He moved everything around so that it could be flat. it doesn't match the in-game world at all. just a layout that tells you what's leads to what. but it's readable. the main reason this is pay for is it can be written on. If EvE-mon could sell a board-game version of it's self it would. but that doesn't even make sense. you've been ignoring the last guide someone made that was full of maps as well. and that people bought. The only truth you speak is of capitalism and open your eyes it's normal bissness in life. I really can't believe your older than 19. go get emo, and come back after you've gorn up. and if you are older it doesn't matter, grow up anyways. this is how the real world works. the more money you have the more of an advantage you have. or are you **ed at the people that buy 2 million$ houses as well. you should be. what about the people that make the 2 million $ houses? should everyone have the same advantage or the same money and work? that makes you a COMMI-** liberal
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:35:00 - [314] Edited by: MotherMoon on 06/06/2007 18:38:29 Originally by: Onnawa There is no "Secondary Market" you fool. There's only the Market. And CCP gets to dictate how it is managed and run. If you don't like it, term your chars. And if CCP nuked EveMon and wrote their own, I'd like it just fine. It's their choice, their product, and their servers. You're missing the fact that we don't have any power over it. The only powers we have as the consumer is to buy, or not. Pure, simple, period. right like EvE-voice Wiggly what are your views on this? and don't bring up the 1 person crap it doesn't matter if it was one or 5 people that made it.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:37:00 - [315] will you monkeys stop bumping this silyl thread so it dies already ... oops Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Viruzzz2	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:40:00 - [316] I don't see the problem. they charge for a physical book that they spend materials and time to make, i see nothing wrong with that. in what business would it be any different?
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:40:00 - [317] but it's fun and promotes the new map book!
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:42:00 - [318] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Ozstar Edited by: Ozstar on 06/06/2007 11:33:06 I may buy two copies now, just to **** Wiggly off. Hmmm, maybe Wiggly is an alt of Serenity, posting contrary and inflammatory trollage in an attempt to get people to do just that... T2 Tinfoil Hats anyone? maybe its a DEV, laughing at us instead of fixing bugs?
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:43:00 - [319] Serenity is a smart, cool person. I was in ISS when Count & Serenity first started it up. I'd buy one just because of that! I do like Ombey's maps, but a book would be nice too. Just an EVE trinket that would be nice to have, and bonus if it's useful too! So wiggle off Mr. Jiggly. we don't care... Building the homestead
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:47:00 - [320] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Ozstar Edited by: Ozstar on 06/06/2007 11:33:06 I may buy two copies now, just to **** Wiggly off. Hmmm, maybe Wiggly is an alt of Serenity, posting contrary and inflammatory trollage in an attempt to get people to do just that... T2 Tinfoil Hats anyone? maybe its a DEV, laughing at us instead of fixing bugs? Maybe Serenity is a BoB Dev and Wiggly is her clone. Thats right, not alt- clone. RL one. We're through the looking glass, people --------
Eemaavi Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:36:00 - [321] NOT FEEDING The Troll,, Comrade Wiggly is lost in a Marxist Utopia... I just wanted to point out if anyone was actually following some of the Thead that EvEMon is still supported and according to the Dev Blog,http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=467 The Eve Devs are revamping the API System to make it easier for 3rd party developer to makemore free stuff.. Yeah I'm an Alt- Go cry elswhere
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.07 03:45:00 - [322] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter maybe its a DEV, laughing at us instead of fixing bugs? I think the more we bump this thread the more people will be aware of and buy the book and the more rabid Wiggly will become. I've got got to say that your portrait is kinda disturbing. Kinda looks like a Barbie doll apart from the nice knockers. The look is spoilt by the gimpy arm though
Van Krakien Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:40:00 - [323] Well Serenity is probably negotiating with CCP because he wants to help the playerbase of EVE, the fact that he is charging you probably no more than 15$ isn't that bad. In truth anyways the charging is most likely for the printing, and overall producing of the book not the information the book holds. I am not saying I like the idea of being charged for something, however it will be a good tool for players to use in a time of planning and such.
Coconut Joe VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:19:00 - [324] Shut the Eve Shop as well.
Sarah McTeef	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:57:00 - [325] How DARE CCP charge for Eve-Online, no one should be allowed to make money. The fact that CCP wants to license their products and brands to third parties is COMMUNISM! It's insulting! Wait. What?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:00:00 - [326] Hehehe, memories. ------ Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts!
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:44:00 - [327] I don't get it how it can be a threat to anything. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I won't. I have a free alternative (Ombey's maps) and I can't say I overuse it either. And Eve is CCP product, so it's up to them to decide what to do with it. If they decide to double the subscription cost, they do it. As a customer you can either buy or not their product, but you can't tell them how to earn money or manage licensing policy. Are you concerned that rich ppl will get advantage? It's happening right now. Multiple accounts, GTCs are means for rich ppl to get advantage. No matter what you do, you can't completely detach virtual world from the real one, and RL wealth will crawl into the game in some form sooner or later. Communism is... well, utopia, a beautiful, but impossible to achieve. Our world lives and breathes money. Try earn enough so you won't care. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Tressin Khiyne Minmatar The Tal'Shiar	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:51:00 - [328] People like you are exactly WHY EveMon QuickFit and others like them SHOULD charge. To clarify -- you suck. *Tressin Khiyne donates AGAIN to QuickFit. -- There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:53:00 - [329] The necro continues to claim people --------------------------------- Thorax type R&R. (Ribbed and R rated)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:16:00 - [330] I remember this thread. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Eval B'Stard Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.13 00:36:00 - [331] Originally by: DarkMatter I do like Ombey's maps, but a book would be nice too. Just an EVE trinket that would be nice to have, and bonus if it's useful too! So you can't spend 1/2 hour and a couple of quid to get Ombeys maps bound ? I went a stage further a laminated them all before I bound them, makes a great addition to my desktop. ------------------------------------------- When we gonna see the 40km and 80km tractor beams ?
Durisis	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:13:00 - [332] /signed with the OP
Durisis	Posted - 2007.11.13 02:44:00 - [333] Edited by: Durisis on 13/11/2007 02:45:31 so, coming from a free to play game that actually had this function, why does this website's forum lack the delete function for posts that are tied to the account that posted it? in other words, why cant we delete our own posts?
Sgt Napalm Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.13 03:35:00 - [334] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Thoughts? 1. Your an alt 2. You have no money 3. Don't buy it Problem solved
midge Mo'yb R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:39:00 - [335] Originally by: Wiggly Jiggly Edited by: Wiggly Jiggly on 05/06/2007 08:06:11 Originally by: Vorian Atraties I would have no problem paying for the products such as evemon or The Book, it takes alot of time and work to create these things. Just because you have no problem paying for somethign does not make it right to charge for it. What about all the players who can't pay for it because of financial constraints? What would happen if all the slick third party tools, resources and books of information became 'subscribers only'? The player base would be split right down the middle. Those with the resources and those without. It is a question of equality. Any third party tool was allowed to be develped using CCP intelectual property so long as it was free for everyone to obtain. by allowing Serenity the right to charge for this work creates a situation where those that would like to obtain access to it, can not (if they can't afford it). This is exploitive of the membership base, and creates a cluture of the 'haves' and 'have nots'. The EULA was written to protect the userbase from this type of situation from developing. I say CCP should honour its intent. ok next you will be telling us that eve requires a "maximum Requirements" and you cant play if your computer is better than that as the ebil lag monster (the **ty pc type) is unfair that is doesn't affect us who cough up the cash to make fast computers that can run eve with 50 man fights with acceptable fps of yeah and we have a mandatory crash at random intervals to simulate the people who have **ty net connections stfu your a moron, seems someone was beaten to the idea or proposed something to ccp and got told where to go. i initend to buy serenitys maps because it looks like a very nice/usefull product. -----------------------------------------------
Daedalus DuGalle Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:45:00 - [336] I remember this thread. In my day the food was better, women more beautiful and NOS was overpowered. Sig stolen from Kyguard
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.11.13 11:46:00 - [337] Nerf the map already, it needs to give out less information. I for one won't be paying for more maps. I'd rather see us being able to build layouts of our own with this new tactical warroom feature I've heard about. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

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