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Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:16:00 - [1] Hi! This isnt a whining tread. Its more about getting tips, help and ideas how to perform better.... Let me throw out some stuff thats a fact in game... 1. Cargo scans doesnt show in logs, and that has been confirmed by devs thats how it is supose to be. 2. From a post earlier a dev said he will install a patch so cargo will show when in secure containers. So i ask myself. How can i get an idea if some people are wanting my cargo? Ok, here is what i found out. I can choose to auto target, that way when people lock me, i lock them back and can expect being cargo scanned. This works fine for haulers, as they have slots. For a freighter on the other hand, this does not work. So basicly. You can get a clue being scanned and your cargo is in danger when in a hauler. Cool! But, when in a freighter. How on earth can you protect yourself and cargo? As there are no way to know, or even get a hint, that you have been scanned? Sure, you can see on overview that someone is locking you. Yeah i know. Allways good to pay atttention to overview. But, when in a crowded system, and overview is as long as a bad year. Your not able to view all ships / pilots on your overview. I have removed all ingame stuff on overview, but even then, i cant allways see all ships / pilots.. So i ask you people out there. How do you know if your being scanned? Is there some settings in overview im missing? Is there a way to make ppl locking you pop on top of overview? OR are we just flying blindfull in our ships?
Barbaro55a Caldari Os Lobos Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:22:00 - [2] Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. .......................................... We come in peace - My sig and your sig would make cute baby sigs.
Gner Dechast Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:23:00 - [3] Well, any half decent perp won't be scanning you without passive scanner, so no - on most cases you can't even see anyone locking you. How do you know - the SOUND. That's about the only way I know of. The scanners make peculiar sound that you should easily identify, althou you're left wondering were you or someone else scanned. At any rate it should give you a warning about something going on. How to protect? Don't haul expensive cargo AFK or in T1 industrials. With extremely valuable cargo's, use forward scout even in highsec (look out for multiple caracals or domis or .... you get the idea). Try to calculate the ganking cost on suicide attacks and try to run cargo in ships and cargo volumes that (along with explosion losses) are very unlikely to be profitable. That's all I can think of for now.

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:25:00 - [4] Originally by: Barbaro55a Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. 9 points for nice try at least... I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Reilly Jax Amarr Freespace Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:27:00 - [5] Hi there :) i heard someone mention a game mechanic called courier missions. you can create one and assign it to yourself. the contents of the courier package are not scannable. they aer not secure containers, thus they will not be scannable in kali 2.0. add to the fact that you can have one courier container ina hauler with 750000m3 in it. not a whole bunch of smaller cans. it hides your true content even more.. is there 50km3 of trit in there? or is there 50billion in faction mods? no way to know. courier missions assigned to yourself. ive not tried that method, but if i had a freighter i woulndt do it any other way. have a nice day :D
Reilly Jax Amarr Freespace Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:29:00 - [6] mr wrangler.. can you alaborate on my above post? if in fact that mechanic will be in place in 2.0?
Beor0d Congregatio	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:35:00 - [7] Edited by: Beor0d on 06/06/2007 10:34:26 Why should i have an escort when the attackers will be shot by concord anyways? I saw some videos where freighter got insta popped by some Battleships, so no escort can help you if you and the enemy gang is dead some seconds later. Please tell me the aspects i am missing :) _______________________ Mining makes mad
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:37:00 - [8] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Barbaro55a Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. 9 points for nice try at least... I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. Getting an escort is pointless as your loss will only be bigger if your ganked. As concorde will kill your escorte if they start shooting at your agressors. Only good is the tip abowe on using a scout to look out for group of domis.. Even though your not auto pilot hauling, your freighter can be ganked. I didnt knew about the sound...good tip. Guess ill play with sound on when hauling :) About the mission thing. I read that the mission package can be scanned.
Caletha Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.06 10:58:00 - [9] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Barbaro55a Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. 9 points for nice try at least... I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. Yes because insta-popping haulers can be defended so well in empire. I mean your escort can take out the people that are gatecamping, and ofcourse shield-transfer, and. Oh wait... Having blown a few haulers in empire myself now I can conclude that theres nothing you can do about it. Its all about calculations, if the person you want to blow up is in an BR or something with high resists + hp, just bring more BS to kill it. Since it pops instantly, your escort cant do anything other then watch pretty explosions. Or perhaps a pop-shot at the hauler stealing the can, but you'd have to be quick and hope that hauler isnt stabbed up. Its all a numbers game, in Jita we saw a hauler with about 200m in its cargo, I attacked it, and only shot off its shields before I pop'd (itty 5 with all extenders). But seeing it was 200m of loot, we just got another BS to shoot it as well and we ran off with 100m in loot (half blew up). The 2 BS didnt cost more then 20m to insure + fit. End result, 60m profit. I guess its all fair in love and war. But dont hide behind the "get an escort or tougher ship" theory, because lets face it, it doesnt work like that.
Gner Dechast Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:14:00 - [10] Edited by: Gner Dechast on 06/06/2007 11:13:53 Originally by: Caletha Reborn Its all a numbers game, in Jita we saw a hauler with about 200m in its cargo, I attacked it, and only shot off its shields before I pop'd (itty 5 with all extenders). But seeing it was 200m of loot, we just got another BS to shoot it as well and we ran off with 100m in loot (half blew up). The 2 BS didnt cost more then 20m to insure + fit. End result, 60m profit. I guess its all fair in love and war. But dont hide behind the "get an escort or tougher ship" theory, because lets face it, it doesnt work like that. This is exactly what I meant by "trying to calculate the cost of ganking...." Tougher hauler requires more gear to pop, hence adding more to the gank costs. If your cargo is of less value than the gank cost or slightly higher, odds are that you don't get engaged since there are plenty of better targets around. If you have something mindbogglingly expensive, don't use haulers at all, rather use cloaking recon ships and move it with them (unless size restrictions prohibit - then I don't really know how you should do it). In the end, there is always some risk, no matter how much effort you put into this or any other issue - and that's the way it should be, IMO. Edit: I can't spell...
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:17:00 - [11] Maybe you can try making the list on the scanner very long by inluding a can of junk filled with all sorts of items from consumer electronics to bookmarks and whatnot. This could then mask your true content, i don't know how long the list is with cargo scans?
Larkonis Trassler Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:20:00 - [12] Hey guys... here's a thought! The escort is there to SCOUT for you and if you do get ganked to PROTECT YOUR WRECK. Start thinking outside the box. You can never 100% protect yourself from being ganked. But you can stop people making away with your loots in the standby hauler. For those of you indy bears whining about your profit margins being slashed... Welcome to the world of Risk Vs Reward. By taking an escort you are lowering your risk and hence your reward. ------------ Request for Privateer Sticky! Keep the forums clean!
Di Jiensai Gallente Domination.	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:21:00 - [13] Well, cutting my own throat here, but there is one way. You need a Tech2 transport (the small, fast one) Fit a MWD, and best cloak. Then you need to do some testing. The idea is this: After jumping into a System stay cloaked, click the out-gate on your overview so it will be marked in space. Rotate camera looking for it, and then align (doubble click close to it in space) wait half a second, activate MWD, wait a split second, activate cloak. Deactivate mwd, have finger on the key to deactivate cloak, and mouse over the warp to 0 button. As soon as the MWD finishes its 10 second cycle, your max speed will drop to normal, but your actual speed will still be higher, but quickly droping. But, as long as your actual speed is higher than max, and you are allready aligned, you warp instantly when clicking warp to 0. I mentioned testing above. With this i mean, you need to setup your ship, so that it doesnt accelerate too slow, to reach max speed+ aligning, in the time of one mwd cycle. But, as The cloak reduces max speed, you need to be faster than base max speed, with MWD and cloak active. What worked for me, is a Viator with one Inertia Stab, and one expanded cargohold (possibly 2 expanders work too) If Done correctly, you will be visible for a split second, after coming out of cloak, when you activate MWD and your cloak, and then again a split second, 10 seconds later (one MWD burst) before you switch off your cloak and go to warp. you cannot be cought doing this, and cant even be cargo scanned, as you are at no point visible long enough to even target you. I strongly suggest to practice this maneauver, several times, as the timing must be quite exact.
Di Jiensai Gallente Domination.	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:27:00 - [14] Originally by: djenghis jan Maybe you can try making the list on the scanner very long by inluding a can of junk filled with all sorts of items from consumer electronics to bookmarks and whatnot. This could then mask your true content, i don't know how long the list is with cargo scans? This will work, at least on slow computers, mine for example freezes completly for 5-10 seconds, if someone has 100+ items in hold.
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:37:00 - [15] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler For those of you indy bears whining about your profit margins being slashed... Welcome to the world of Risk Vs Reward. By taking an escort you are lowering your risk and hence your reward. WOOOOOOT....Finaly i got it. One of things i hate most in these ganking subjects are throwing all burdens and waights of actions on to ganked ppl. Burst of wisdom on every corner regarding this amaze me. PPl trying to find the tips to do their part. The are willing to do lot more in order to acomplish some goals of their. And yet, others still manage to write one dimensional opinions such as "welcome to EVE, game of risk v Reward......but only for some" me, myself and I ------>
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:39:00 - [16] What I usually do is put about 3/4 valuable cargo and 1/4 usless junk that takes up little space (the more the merrier) at least 300 items, trust me it takes ages for the person scanning to sift through all that junk. Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 11:47:00 - [17] Hum another method : set up a courier mission with a high collateral price, wait in ambush for the courier to pass by, ambush and kill him, and use the collateral to buy the stuff you needed at the destination point.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:01:00 - [18] The most valuable thing I ever carried from one place to another was a T2 implant - value 63mil, one time. That's it. Carried it in an Ibis because lets face it, who scans an Ibis!? "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Caletha Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:09:00 - [19] Originally by: Gealbhan The most valuable thing I ever carried from one place to another was a T2 implant - value 63mil, one time. That's it. Carried it in an Ibis because lets face it, who scans an Ibis!? I once used an Velator to transport roughly 17b worth of BPO's for that very same reason, who the hell scans an Velator Wait, now everyone does (not that it matters for me anymore, the bpo's are safely in their end-station now)
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:16:00 - [20] Yes, trying to transport stuff in "who suspects that ship" can be painful. It works until someone DOES scan you and kill you with a suicide kestrel. Personally I use for AFK-transporting heavily tanked ships. Transport ships can be pretty good there, especially the impel. The one of my transport alt has 7k hitpoints and resistances between 79-91%. It can be suicedeganked, but you will need 5+ battleships to do that which does not happen that often.
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:34:00 - [21] Want to protect your cargo? Get a ship capable of it.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 12:56:00 - [22] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 12:56:13 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Hum another method : set up a courier mission with a high collateral price, wait in ambush for the courier to pass by, ambush and kill him, and use the collateral to buy the stuff you needed at the destination point. Perfectly legit unless you're using a conquerable station / outpost as the end point (so ppl can't dock, and can't complete it). //Maya
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Happster 2. From a post earlier a dev said he will install a patch so cargo will show when in secure containers. Oh how I hope that with that patch I can target and cargo scan my assets window so I can look inside my own containers. That is the point that bugs me. I can't remotely look inside my own containers, others can.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 12:56:13 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Hum another method : set up a courier mission with a high collateral price, wait in ambush for the courier to pass by, ambush and kill him, and use the collateral to buy the stuff you needed at the destination point. Perfectly legit unless you're using a conquerable station / outpost as the end point (so ppl can't dock, and can't complete it). Sounds like a fair restriction. Well, even if the guy makes it though, you didn't lose anything, so it's fine.
Kehmor Caldari The Movement	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:18:00 - [25] when 20 odd dominixes start flashing red you can be pretty sure they've cargoscanned your freightor. The Movement is recruiting!
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:28:00 - [26] Ok, I have an idea. Granted this will not keep you from getting ganked, but will keep your attackers from stealing anything from your freighter and thus making it useless to gank it. 1. Bring along an escort in a destroyer outfitted with sensor boosters and tractor beams + an AB/MWD 2. If/when you get ganked, have the destroyer lock onto and tractor your wreck, and immediately drag the wreck away from the area. Hopefully this should keep the attackers from easily retrieving the contents with haulers/freighters. Is this any good? Not much consolation over losing one's freighter, but if the attackers aren't guaranteed to score the loot it might make them think twice... erm...GOONSWARM IS EBIL.
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:54:00 - [27] Turn on your sound. Damn I'm good. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:57:00 - [28] Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 06/06/2007 14:59:25 Originally by: Happster Hi! This isnt a whining tread. Its more about getting tips, help and ideas how to perform better.... Let me throw out some stuff thats a fact in game... 1. Cargo scans doesnt show in logs, and that has been confirmed by devs thats how it is supose to be. 2. From a post earlier a dev said he will install a patch so cargo will show when in secure containers. So i ask myself. How can i get an idea if some people are wanting my cargo? Ok, here is what i found out. I can choose to auto target, that way when people lock me, i lock them back and can expect being cargo scanned. This works fine for haulers, as they have slots. For a freighter on the other hand, this does not work. So basicly. You can get a clue being scanned and your cargo is in danger when in a hauler. Cool! But, when in a freighter. How on earth can you protect yourself and cargo? As there are no way to know, or even get a hint, that you have been scanned? Sure, you can see on overview that someone is locking you. Yeah i know. Allways good to pay atttention to overview. But, when in a crowded system, and overview is as long as a bad year. Your not able to view all ships / pilots on your overview. I have removed all ingame stuff on overview, but even then, i cant allways see all ships / pilots.. So i ask you people out there. How do you know if your being scanned? Is there some settings in overview im missing? Is there a way to make ppl locking you pop on top of overview? OR are we just flying blindfull in our ships? You dont...and if you fly a billion isk ship alone without escort, you asking for trouble. Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:41:00 - [29] I agree with the escort bit, no gank squad with half a brain is going to waste time on cargo they wont be able to recover Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 06/06/2007 15:37:05 Once the transport is dead, the problem isn't that the escort can't beat the guy that ganked. The problem is that the ganker's transport ship is looting the wreck, and can't be attacked until he does... and when he does, it's too late. Before the transport is dead, the problem is that the only way to protect a ship is to carry less than it's worth in assurance for the ganker, which seems to be around 20 million isk. If you raise the ship defense, it may go up to 260 million isk (freighter). So should transporting more than 260 million isk should from now on become impossible ? or should some kind of defense be possible ? Even with the cheapest mineral (velspar) does 260 million fill the entire cargo ? If not, something is clearly strange here... I've got nothing against ganking if active steps can defend yourself from it. Which currently, isn't true. However, the changes to concord may change the balance of ganking... so... maybe it's solved, maybe it needs more tweaking. At least the devs are working on it. What are they working om? for one thing it makes no sense for Concord to pay insurance to a criminal they just destroyed. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:44:00 - [31] 1. Create a private Courier contract to your self 2. Haul the pastic wrap (which no-one can scan to see whats inside) 3. ??? 4. Profit. -
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:02:00 - [32] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 06/06/2007 16:01:40 Quote: What are they working om? for one thing it makes no sense for Concord to pay insurance to a criminal they just destroyed. Hum that's right about the insurance, but I don't think it change anything. The insurance just means you have to restrict to killing bigger targets, and the problem is that current targets are really small compared to what they could theoretically hold if full. It's like putting new scratchless paint on a car when it's rusted behind the paint. The dev are working on making concord attack drones, which means the main ganking method (drones, because they weren't jammed) will not be as effective as they are now. Which means that you'll need more ships to gank something in high sec. Basically, it achieves the same objective as removing insurance : raising cost for gankers. I just say it's better to see if removing insurance on top of the dron change is necessary or not. PS : and following my own argumentation, it may also not be enough... I know...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Alski 1. Create a private Courier contract to your self 2. Haul the pastic wrap (which no-one can scan to see whats inside) 3. ??? 4. Profit. You know what Dev Lickspittle said thar? Do you think thats related? By which I mean, when they fix it so you can scan inside containers again, do you think you'll be able to see inside plastic wrappers, too? --------
Mr DanielXY	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:12:00 - [34] Ok couple Questions/Suggestions: 1. How many freighter ganks were there in high-sec anyways? 1b) How many suicide indy kills / day in high-sec? (if anyone can guess that number ;) ) 1c) How many of those on not-afk haulers? 2. If you do the courier mission trick with your freighter and everyone else is doing it... Wouldnt it be clear for the gankers that everyone with courier mission in cargo is probably transporting something valueable (he did go thru the trouble of issuing a courier contract... why would he if not for the fear of getting ganked?)? If you fly with cargo that is very cheap it would be advisable to fly it without the trick for everyone to see "Im cheap, no valueable target", to not loose your freighter to guys that think like explained above ;) 3. I guess the best way to secure your cargo would be to... use a second freighter as escort :D They would fly in a gang in looting distance to each other... As soon as the one with the cargo gets popped the other one loots the wreck... thus denying the gankers the loot... Hmmm ofc they could form a second gang and gank the remaining freighter... but than you could go with 2 freighters as escort :D and so on... The advantage is clear... as you only need 2 persons the gankers need 15-20... + if the choose to gank you a second time the potential profit is halved already since the cargo explodes 2 times thus only 25% of it remaining (statistically)
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.06.06 17:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Sinder Ohm What I usually do is put about 3/4 valuable cargo and 1/4 usless junk that takes up little space (the more the merrier) at least 300 items, trust me it takes ages for the person scanning to sift through all that junk. Probably the most interesting suggestion anyone has posted in this thread, although it might be considered a borderline exploit as you could be seen as deliberately creating lag. My suggestions: cheap skillbooks, the less bulky trade goods, salvage components, and (if you're hauling a BPO) a large number of worthless 1 run BPCs that have the same icon (and same name, if from the same blueprint) - people would have to click show info on every one of them to find the BPO. Mixed item types help to ensure that people can't easily guess the nature of the most valuable type of cargo that you're carrying. The downside of this tactic is that if you overdo it, people are more likely to suspect that you're hiding something valuable, shoot you first and trawl later... ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Rod Serling	Posted - 2007.06.06 17:49:00 - [36] I think the best solution would be to add a map feature that lets you avoid specific systems in planning your route. Then it becomes a matter of who can outsmart who, which is, I thought, the point of much of Eve.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:13:00 - [37] As the person who owns a blueprint to them I would suggest using a bustard.
Necrosmith Gallente Excellence In Business Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:51:00 - [38] Fly with a scout to look for a group of Domis, and don't haul so much valuable stuff as to make it profitable for a suicide gank. Best Regards, --Necro ------------- "Isk is cheap. Life is cheaper. This week, they're having a sale on both."
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:57:00 - [39] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 06/06/2007 18:56:52 Quote: I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. I would suggest thinking about your answers more thouroughly in the future. At some point you are using the most defended ship being a frieghter, and those still have no defense. An escort does NOthing for you in high sec, because if they see you get engaged and retaliate they simply get concorded as well. CCP seems to no be understanding fully what is going on in their game right now. Concord is pointless they mean nothing and the supposed penalty they are ment to inflict is meaningless. People are being rewarded for intentionally dying, which is the most backwards arse broken mechanic exploit ever to exist in a game of any sort. Meanwhile the people trying to live and play the game properly are not only losing cargo worth billions but if you are flying a freighter the ship alone was hundreds of millions? I am sorry if this came across harsh but seriously the Dev's seem to be completely clueless on this new phenonemon of suicide ganking and how helpless everyone is to prevent it. the only real answer has been dont fly anything worth anything.... it isnt just frieghter, evne a faction fitted ship is worth ganking if you got enough friends willing to jump in a caracal. Risk vs reward is beyond broken with suicide ganking. The reward is always hand picked, huge and certain the risk is nearly ZERO. suicide ganking is so risk free that it make ratting in a dread look suicidal....
JaffaCake	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:07:00 - [40] I think EVERYONE should give freighter pilots a hand and TARGET them whenever they see them in local [1]. This way, they can always be sure that someone, somewhere is taking an interest in the contents of their cargohold and that they need to stay vigilant. [1] Yes, even shuttles!
Coutaux	Posted - 2007.06.06 22:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 I would suggest thinking about your answers more thouroughly in the future. At some point you are using the most defended ship being a frieghter, and those still have no defense. An escort does NOthing for you in high sec, because if they see you get engaged and retaliate they simply get concorded as well. That there is the key problem to the dev's idea of "just fly with an escort". For flying with an escort to work, they need to allow gang members to retaliate against a target that agresses anyone in the group without becoming concorded. Combine this with a bunch of support cruisers in your gang with shield / armor reps and the problem will be solved. Solo freighters will still have to worry, but a viable means of responding to threat will exist as well.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 00:31:00 - [42] If the cargo is not to large, fast warping ships ftw. to scan you, they have to lock you, if they dont have time to get a scan off then they are unlikely to shoot. This means no afk. You have to use warp to zero for every system. The most dangerous part is undocking in lag, as it is possible to get scanned. Otherwise, tanked with a focus on resists and lots of armor and shields. Transport ships do nicely, but put enough value in something, and it will be profitable to kill even if you lose 10 battleships to concord. Even in tanked cargo ships, warp to zero when hauling the high value stuff. Warp to zero dramaticly reduces your risk, even in a slow warping ship. Risk is never eliminated, but it can be "managed" Quote: Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Rooker Lysian Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.06.07 01:53:00 - [43] I don't know if this would do any good at all, but maybe try an escort in a Myrmidon with an Armor Warfare - Passive Defense module running and 5 heavy armor bots in the drone bay. The gang mod raises armor resists, the bots run on the freighter until it goes into warp in case somebody tries to gank it. And if it gets ganked anyway, the Myrm could just tractor the cans that drop and run like hell on MWD until the owner comes along to reclaim it. -- SAVE EANM FROM THE NERFBAT!
SamtheDog Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.07 03:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Gealbhan The most valuable thing I ever carried from one place to another was a T2 implant - value 63mil, one time. That's it. Carried it in an Ibis because lets face it, who scans an Ibis!? I do. I scan EVERY ship that I can kill. You would not believe how many fools move 50 implants in a NOOB ship. Two days ago I got a dread bpc (you can find it on contract now) from a noob ship as well as a hurricane bp. Noob ships are slow, fast to target & nearly insta-pop.... Even a shuttle gave me 2 Gist B-type hardners. The funny part is they are on autopilot and keep moving with their pods. Nothing will save you. Trust me... Sammy "Never underestimate greed or stupidity...you can always see it emerge in the end"
SamtheDog Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.07 03:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Tortun Nahme I agree with the escort bit, no gank squad with half a brain is going to waste time on cargo they wont be able to recover I'd pop a freighter just to ruin a guys day. You would not believe the hysterics we get into after we popped x billion isk. Sometimes reading local can be worth the isk. Btw, wiht domi prices in jita near 50M isk & insurance @ 66.5M. The total loss of a domi is just under 5M fully fitted. Very good bang for the buck. Sammy "Never underestimate greed or stupidity...you can always see it emerge in the end"
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.06.07 04:05:00 - [46] Quote: That there is the key problem to the dev's idea of "just fly with an escort". For flying with an escort to work, they need to allow gang members to retaliate against a target that agresses anyone in the group without becoming concorded. Actually, anyone could help after they have agressed, escort or no. Once a person agresses unlawfully in high sec they get a global criminal flag and can be shot by anyone for 15 minuets. Quote: I am sorry if this came across harsh but seriously the Dev's seem to be completely clueless on this new phenonemon of suicide ganking and how helpless everyone is to prevent it. the only real answer has been dont fly anything worth anything.... it isnt just frieghter, evne a faction fitted ship is worth ganking if you got enough friends willing to jump in a caracal. That "phenonemon" has been happening, what, 4 years now? I think they know about it. If they change it at all it will be a huge sell out to a majority of the game.
Spider Iarus	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:55:00 - [47] Allow me to provide a small suggestion for how to handle gate-gankers. Don't bother with an escort; the ganker is going to die anyway. What you want is someone to save the important thing - your loot. That means keeping it away from his hauler partner(s) until you can get back to it. And for that purpose may I suggest a ganged destroyer with a tractor beam 'firing' but without a lock? Clicks your wreck, drags it around until the cavalry comes. Ain't too hard to keep out of range of an industrial. Cost: 1mil for the destroyer, pittance for the beam Or there's the old 'fill the hold with pieces of ammo, low wieght mods, and various lag-causing fun' trick. By the time he's resolved lag from opening you up you're sitting in Jita having a smoke and a beer. Think outside the box, wait for CCP to cripple this which - frankly - they will. Or get your own Domi...
Trishan Minmatar Green Men Incorporated The Threshold	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:10:00 - [48] Originally by: FarScape III And HOW are they sapposed to protect the loot when the gankers buddy is getting the loot andNOT red to the escort? It doesn't even matter. Assuming they could shoot the looter, one of the gankers buddies would just ransom the wreck, and blow it up if anyone gets near.
Martosh Toma Gallente Fraction Investment	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:54:00 - [49] Edited by: Martosh Toma on 07/06/2007 07:55:16 Why do people even jump their value(ble) transporter (whatever shiptype) into a mob of multible BS? And anyone that would answer with, "Because I did not know", I say use a scout. Other than that: Take a peek at the gank-equasion as was sugested before (Make sure then need to spend more isk to gank then can be obtained from your wreck)(shield extenders, armor plates and passive resist mods help most. generaly active tanks fare less well in ganks). Hiding gems in the dirt (a large amount of low level, low value loot to increase their responce time) Tracktoring your own loot away will not save your ship, but it will reduce profitebility for the gankers on average. This might also help if you try to take on whomever tries to take your loot. I admit that once you start to transport a load that exceeds the gank-eqasion things get complicated fast. you suddenly need a scout, perhaps someone to tracktor your wreck, and maybe even an escort for your wreck. but as long as you at least pay attenion to the gank-equasion you will have less trouble transporting your stuff. Of course using autopilot is asking for trouble. once you got scanned (or think you might have been) dock somewhere asap and take a break. If you regularly haul valueble goods between systems: Try to find some alternate routes and defenetely avoid flying at the same times. Make sure you have safe spots along the trip (especially in systems with no stations) and bring a cloak. prepare a decoy ship in advance( or prepare some way to unload your (importand?) cargo) and get the gankers to pop your (nearly?) empty ship). Oh and If you cannot save your stuff, destroy it (if you can)
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:06:00 - [50] There are indeed a number of things that you can do to avoid getting ganked in your hauler/freighter. a) turn on sound, scanners make a very easy to recognize sound. If you hear it, just assume it was used on you with a passive targeter, don't jump through and dock. b) for now, you can use containers and the courier wrap. The contents doesn't show up and neither those the container or the wrap. Put some junk in your cargo hold so you don't look like an 'empty hauler using containers' and keep on flying. This seems to be getting fixed so enjoy this while it lasts. c) when the containers become vulnerable to scanners, always, always have a container filled with lots of stuff and junk in your cargo hold. It's just an extra item in your cargo but when you're scanned, it will show a lot of results on the guy who's scanning ya. If you're lucky he doesn't spot the valuable stuff immediatly or just thinks you're carrying junk. d) use a scout to detect gank squads. Plus, the scout can do something extra. I've read a very interesting theory on these forums regarding ship alignment on these forums and as far as I could test it, it seems to be true: when you're cloaked, your ship looks aligned to something on your screen, but for the server it actually isn't. The moment you warp to the next gate, you decloak and start aligning and accelerating on your screen. For the server, you're insta-aligned and just start accelerating. If your scout carries a sensor booster and a webber, he locks and webs you the moment you decloak and you almost instawarp in your hauler/freighter. I don't fly freighters so I couldn't test this but with a hauler my alt warped, much, much faster (the moment i engaged the web, the hauler instawarped while still aligning on my alt's screen) Then another remark regarding the escort not able to fire back. This is not true, as soon as someone performs a criminal act, ANYONE can shoot the attacker. Concord will leave you alone. I do agree that it won't help much as concord is already wtfbbqpwning the attacker so your 1 percent extra damage won't help. There has been a change on sisi at a moment too where Concord will also jam the drones that are being used by the domi's. This would stop the damage done to the hauler the moment Concord shows up. Is this still planned? It would make freighter ganking a lot more costly this way as you need to be able to pop it before concord shows up. This requires a lot more battleships.
Bon Hedus Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:24:00 - [51] Originally by: Gner Dechast How do you know - the SOUND. That's about the only way I know of. The scanners make peculiar sound that you should easily identify, althou you're left wondering were you or someone else scanned. At any rate it should give you a warning about something going on. Eve has SOUND? I have been playing for 3 years with out sound due to the BSOD that I get when sound is enabled -------------------------------------- Heavy Lag Spike II belonging to EvE Cluster Node #0815 hits your Connection, wrecking your latency to 998ms
Jaggeh Furious Angels Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:31:00 - [52] tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. Travel To Eve fest from ireland
The Ender	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Jaggeh tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. Lag in Jita is about to get 10 times as bad now you have posted this :(
Caletha Reborn	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:55:00 - [54] As the number of items are specificly added to lag out the person scanning you, the 'solution' you mention is an exploit. I'm 99.9% sure a GM or Dev once said that as well.
StinkFinger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:42:00 - [55] If you're flying a freighter in empire and are worried about it getting ganked, then fly with 3-4 buddies in logistics ships. As you uncloak and are about to warp to the next gate, have your buddies target and rep/shield boost you. Should have enough rep cycles to thwart any gank attempts. If not, get some more friends in logistics ships. Considering the changes coming up in the next patch, logistics will be working significantly better then now and imo will be a decent counter to empire freighter ganks. Originally by: Tuxford Needy needy people I'll try to make some stuff up
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:53:00 - [56] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Barbaro55a Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. 9 points for nice try at least... I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. Transports are suposed to be Harder right.... how about giving us one that can stand up to a pounding and say Shoot back even... Yall say you want us to PVP in eve but when we say we would like to yall tell us to Fly a Battleship and take 40 trips... Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:13:00 - [57] Edited by: Sqalevon on 07/06/2007 15:20:51 You can conceal your cargo by putting it in cargo containers. They will show up on the scanner, but you cant see what is in it. I'm confident enough to say, no pirate is willing to risk his ship without knowing what he will get in return. And now that I've read your post. I have yet to discover a way to know if someone is cargo scanning me. I know that with a passive targeter you might hear a sound, but thats all.
StinkFinger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Sqalevon Edited by: Sqalevon on 07/06/2007 15:20:51 You can conceal your cargo by putting it in cargo containers. They will show up on the scanner, but you cant see what is in it. I'm confident enough to say, no pirate is willing to risk his ship without knowing what he will get in return. And now that I've read your post. I have yet to discover a way to know if someone is cargo scanning me. I know that with a passive targeter you might hear a sound, but thats all. WRONG. It does show up on scanner. If you don't know what you're talking about, keep quiet. Thanks. Originally by: Tuxford Needy needy people I'll try to make some stuff up
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:36:00 - [59] Edited by: Sqalevon on 07/06/2007 15:41:37 I just tested with it. When a probe with a small secure cargo container is scanned with a standard cargo scanner. The Small secure cargo container doesn't even show up in the results window. Also the Giant secure cargo containers in my iteron mark 5 did not show up, while some modules I had outside the container did. I was indeed incorrect. I thought you did see the containers but couldnt see their content. But the truth is, you don't see the containers at all. This leads me to believe that mr. Stinkfinger wants to conceal this fact for his own purposes ( scanning cargo of unsuspecting victims ). Sqa out.
Petstretsi Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:46:00 - [60] I find it pretty disheartening that we're talking about tightening hi-sec safety while these same protections affect us all by allowing macro farmers to do their jobs easier. Hi-sec needs a security downgrade so the player base can police themselves.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Petstretsi Zuborov I find it pretty disheartening that we're talking about tightening hi-sec safety while these same protections affect us all by allowing macro farmers to do their jobs easier. Hi-sec needs a security downgrade so the player base can police themselves. Worst idea ever... Self-policing just can't be done by players. And you know it. The only think a security downgrade will do is help wicked players blow up noobs. And as far a macros are concerned, being able to blow them up isn't the solution... once again other means are necessary to stop that, like blocking isk on sites like E-bay, like setting up code to discover macros... and other solutions.
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Originally by: Petstretsi Zuborov I find it pretty disheartening that we're talking about tightening hi-sec safety while these same protections affect us all by allowing macro farmers to do their jobs easier. Hi-sec needs a security downgrade so the player base can police themselves. Worst idea ever... Self-policing just can't be done by players. And you know it. The only think a security downgrade will do is help wicked players blow up noobs. And as far a macros are concerned, being able to blow them up isn't the solution... once again other means are necessary to stop that, like blocking isk on sites like E-bay, like setting up code to discover macros... and other solutions. I would argue it's the best idea ever because hisec can be policed by it's own. (see how easy it is to just throw that out there in counter to your blanket knee-jerk?) You cannot code macro detection when it's a client side install that's not changing the game client software engine - it's manipulating memory in local space. You're talking about manipulating game mechanics so people in hisec can't destroy your ship. You're so concerned over the actual mechanics of scanning and combat that your missing the opportunity to brain storm other, game enhancing mechanics. Don't be so short sighted that you can't see beyond your nose.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:15:00 - [63] Edited by: Drizit on 07/06/2007 17:14:55 Just a few ideas that junk the suggestions made here. Maybe it will help CCP re-think their policy of not having at least a low slot for a repper on a Freighter. 1. Escorts: If Concord can't stop you getting ganked, Escorts don't stand a snowball in hells chance. OK, Concord got a buff to help but before that they couldn't stop it and they were way more powerful than any highsec player ship before the buff. The escorts can't even attack the gankers without giving Concord more to gank. The only one that the gankers are flashing red to is the Freighter. 2: Containers/contract packages/spamming: Why not shout out in local that you are carrying something valuable? Most gankers will work on the assumption that, if you are trying to hide it, it's valuable. 3: Scout: The gankers are really going to be hanging around just waiting to get spotted right? You won't see the Domi's until they warp in to gank the Freighter. 4: Someone to pick up the pieces: So where's the Freighter? It seems after all your efforts, you still lost it and need a ship to pick up the loot left behind. Even if you get all the loot back, you lost several hundred million even on an insured Freighter. There are still jerks out there that just want to gank a freighter for the hell of it. They know that the player is going to lose a very large amount of isk even if they have nothing valuable to lose. The insurance on the Freighter nowhere near covers the cost. Add the cost of insurance and it's around half the value of the Freighter that you've lost. I don't care what anyone says, that is pure griefing. The Freighter cannot defend itself even by tanking and can't efectively be defended in highsec. So this makes the Freighter nothing more than a huge white elephant. The only way to deal with highsec ganks is, either allow PVP wholesale in highsec or prevent it 100% except for wardecs. This halfway system is no good as it means that any escort can only stand by and watch the gankers. It suppports griefers and CCP wonder why new players don't stay in the game. Alternatively, give Freighters slots so they can at least tank some damage and have a chance to survive. --
Chobb McKnobb Minmatar Griffin Empire Ultio Animi Causa	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:22:00 - [64] Ok, so I'm somewhat of a noob, but i'm about 22 hours until I can get into a freighter, so I'v been keeping up with this issue quite closley. the main issues I see are 1)obvious Insurance payout on concorded ships... It's been beatin to death, but a valid point. 2) The fact that if you have an escort, THEY get concorded when they try to defend you. How about having a certain type of gang that only a freighter piolet can create, a true escort type gang that gives aggro to your friendlys for the aggressor, so concord knows not to attack your gang, your they're of the "good guys"... Just an idea.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:26:00 - [65] Edited by: Detrol on 07/06/2007 18:36:38 Drizit, I'd like to counter your counters a bit: Originally by: Drizit 1. Escorts: If Concord can't stop you getting ganked, Escorts don't stand a snowball in hells chance. OK, Concord got a buff to help but before that they couldn't stop it and they were way more powerful than any highsec player ship before the buff. The escorts can't even attack the gankers without giving Concord more to gank. The only one that the gankers are flashing red to is the Freighter. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk at all. It's NOT the same as can stealing... THE ATTACKERS ARE FLASHY RED TO EVERYONE the moment they fired 1 shot or activate a scrambler!!!! On the other hand, I do agree that escorts to protect the hauler aren't the solution, Concord does enough damage themselves. Originally by: Drizit 2: Containers/contract packages/spamming: Why not shout out in local that you are carrying something valuable? Most gankers will work on the assumption that, if you are trying to hide it, it's valuable. Just put some additional junk outside the container or the wrap.... worthless mission hauler stuff. You won't show up empty. Originally by: Drizit 3: Scout: The gankers are really going to be hanging around just waiting to get spotted right? You won't see the Domi's until they warp in to gank the Freighter. For that reason I would like to hear about others about the scout webbing the freighter the moment it uncloaks. As far as my tests with slow haulers showed, the hauler instawarped, even if he didn't showed aligned on the hauler's screen. For the server, you're not aligned at all after jump so the moment you choose a direction, you're aligned. Hitting a web on the hauler/freighter at that moment throws it into warp. If this works, it gives the scout something else to do.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:30:00 - [66] Edited by: Detrol on 07/06/2007 18:35:12 Originally by: Chobb McKnobb ... 1)obvious Insurance payout on concorded ships... It's been beatin to death, but a valid point. Just wait till you activate the wrong module on the wrong player in your battleship in high sec. This happens way more then you would think. Can you imagine the whinage on the forums of everyone that looses his most expensive ship this way? "sorry dude, this is to avoid that these dudes in their freighters are safe. Otherwise 1 freighter every 4 weeks is ganked in high sec." It happened to me the other day. Wreck on scanner, I wanted to activate a salvager but pressed the wrong button and lost my ship. Just look at how people complain when they loose a ship in low sec to a player. They do get their insurance but are still furious cause they lost the ship and loose some money. What would you say to those guys when they react like mad after loosing that ship in high sec to a stupid misclick AND DON'T GET INSURANCE MONEY? "sorry dude, this is to avoid that these dudes in their freighters are safe. Otherwise 1 freighter every 4 weeks is ganked in high sec. Deal with it. It's the best solution." Originally by: Chobb McKnobb 2) The fact that if you have an escort, THEY get concorded when they try to defend you. OMG, why is this burned into everyone's mind so hard? Everyone can attack any player that has a global criminal counter. It's not the same as can stealing or can flagging. EVERYONE CAN SHOOT THE BAD GUY after he has fired 1 shot. The fact that you don't see many guys flashy red in high sec is that concord pops them in about 10 secs or less. You have to be lucky to even get a lock on em before they pop.
Tek'a Rain Gallente Isis Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:11:00 - [67] Originally by: Detrol Just wait till you activate the wrong module on the wrong player in your battleship in high sec. This happens way more then you would think. Can you imagine the whinage on the forums of everyone that looses his most expensive ship this way? "sorry dude, this is to avoid that these dudes in their freighters are safe. Otherwise 1 freighter every 4 weeks is ganked in high sec." It happened to me the other day. Wreck on scanner, I wanted to activate a salvager but pressed the wrong button and lost my ship. so after you CLICKED THROUGH a warning box, you want to complain? if you didint click through it then, you did at some other time. sounds like all thats needed for removal of insurance for "destroyed by concord" ships is a decent warning box, with smarter coding on its ticked/unticked states. perhaps several levels of ticked boxes that pays more attention to security status of your location so the fighter mixing things up out in double-o can have warning off There, while still having an option of safety behind a click-through in highsec empire.
Spider Iarus	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:57:00 - [68] Keeping tons of items in your hold to lag the unholy out of pirates is an exploit? Prove it. I say haul what you want, no one's contractually obligated to stack trit or anything else in thier hulls. But of course we both know that using insurance, unganged freighters, and Concord's drone oversight to experience low-risk high-isk ganking isn't an exploit...
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:03:00 - [69] lol at escort. Freighter is weak, and will instapop.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:18:00 - [70] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 08/06/2007 06:19:47 Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 08/06/2007 06:17:59 Originally by: Christari Zuborov I would argue it's the best idea ever because hisec can be policed by it's own. (see how easy it is to just throw that out there in counter to your blanket knee-jerk?) I did state an argument, but forgetting arguments from the other parties seems to be the way to go on those forums. Let me start again : Quote: The only think a security downgrade will do is help wicked players blow up noobs. All PvP centric games have set up protections newbies to the game. Get a clue, there is a reason for it. The security downgrade to hurt macro farmer will not work as intended, because it can be used to kill any players, not only macro users... Quote: You cannot code macro detection when it's a client side install that's not changing the game client software engine - it's manipulating memory in local space. You're talking about manipulating game mechanics so people in hisec can't destroy your ship. You're so concerned over the actual mechanics of scanning and combat that your missing the opportunity to brain storm other, game enhancing mechanics. I'm not talking at all about changing the mechanics to prevent people from making my ship blow, get a clue again, or read my posts maybe... Dunno, learning to read and not making broad assumption may be necessary too. Changing the macro detection mechanic can be done... however, because if a player can find out whether a player is using a macro, a program can do it too. I don't have the perfect solution of course. However, I'm stating that yours isn't good for eve. Furthermore, I didn't speak about the scanning at all, for me it's rather fine. I dunno where you got the idea I wanted to change it, because I didn't, ever, speak about it. Same for not blowing up my ships, I jsut want to make it less profitable for gankers, and not impossible. If it's as easy as now, but just not as profitable, it's fine for me. My only point of view is to enable people to transport some significant cargo before ganking them is profitable. Which, for now, is not the case. It has been shown times and times again in those threads that if the transport are at risk if they transport more than the ganker lose, and right now, transports cannot fill their cargos except with the lowest priced stuff. And downgrading security status, with the pretense of "blowing up macros" is going in the opposite direction. Self policing by players won't work, the history and protection put in place by every PvP centric game proves it. While your opinion has no argument beside it, except, somehow, that players will start blowing up macro players, and that the player will somehow begin to police themselves. I can't actually see why a large portion of the strongest players will set up places to protect newbies, while I see plenty of reasons to blow up noobs "for the fun of it". Actually, just reading the forum a bit will show you that some players find it fun to blow up newbies... The protections offered by concord, pretty harsh for now, still makes high-sec a harsh place compared to most other games out here. Quote: Don't be so short sighted that you can't see beyond your nose. Look who's talking... more than half of what you said doesn't apply to what I said... wrong quote maybe ?
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:30:00 - [71] I seriously don't get this.. I been hauling stuff in high-sec for years and never had an issue. Maybe it's just me but I'm not taking risks, and well.. the day I lose something I'll lose it, nothing worse than that. I remember when losing a bc/bs meant you lost all the money you had, more or less, it was really scary to rat in 0.0 the first times.. ..now people haul billions worth and then cry when it get shot down. Uhm, yah, and what? It was always possible to lose everything you own. Most players would minimize those risks tho by bringing escorts, or spreading out the hauls on several jumps (not all the valuables in one), etc. I personally tend to jump implants (for example) in noob ships or shuttles on alts, only hauling big stuff and then spreading it out on several people - warp to zero and no afk-hauling. Works for me. And the day I get shot down I'll shrug, raise my fist in anger and jump back to fetch the next load.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Detrol Originally by: Drizit 1. Escorts: If Concord can't stop you getting ganked, Escorts don't stand a snowball in hells chance. OK, Concord got a buff to help but before that they couldn't stop it and they were way more powerful than any highsec player ship before the buff. The escorts can't even attack the gankers without giving Concord more to gank. The only one that the gankers are flashing red to is the Freighter. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk at all. It's NOT the same as can stealing... THE ATTACKERS ARE FLASHY RED TO EVERYONE the moment they fired 1 shot or activate a scrambler!!!! On the other hand, I do agree that escorts to protect the hauler aren't the solution, Concord does enough damage themselves. Hum about that, i believe there is a miunderstanding. The problem isn't as you say, blowing up the suicide squad, concord does a pretty god job for that, even if they are too late to protect the transport. The problem lies with the ganker's transport. This one just comes while being protected by concord, can't be shot unless you face concord retaliation - which obviously isn't the wanted result - and if timed right, instawarps after getting the loot.
Ladyah Liandri VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:10:00 - [73] Originally by: Happster I can choose to auto target, that way when people lock me, i lock them back and can expect being cargo scanned. Not if they used a passive targeting module.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:37:00 - [74] Edited by: Detrol on 08/06/2007 11:37:00 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Hum about that, i believe there is a miunderstanding. The problem isn't as you say, blowing up the suicide squad, concord does a pretty god job for that, even if they are too late to protect the transport. The problem lies with the ganker's transport. This one just comes while being protected by concord, can't be shot unless you face concord retaliation - which obviously isn't the wanted result - and if timed right, instawarps after getting the loot. Ah, but in that case your problem is solved. There are multiple solutions for that issue: a) fly with two haulers. One empty, the other filled up. When your buddy pops, your hauler takes the loot and flies away. The gankers are getting popped by concord and can't attack you anymore. Just make sure you're closer to the wreck then the ganker's transport. If necessary even fit a tractor beam. b) fit your scout with a tractor beam and the moment the hauler is popped, pull it away from the ganker's transport. Pick a direction and fly at around 500m/s dragging the wreck behind you. Keep flying till a gangmate can fly in another hauler to empty the wreck.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Detrol Ah, but in that case your problem is solved. There are multiple solutions for that issue: a) fly with two haulers. One empty, the other filled up. When your buddy pops, your hauler takes the loot and flies away. The gankers are getting popped by concord and can't attack you anymore. Just make sure you're closer to the wreck then the ganker's transport. If necessary even fit a tractor beam. b) fit your scout with a tractor beam and the moment the hauler is popped, pull it away from the ganker's transport. Pick a direction and fly at around 500m/s dragging the wreck behind you. Keep flying till a gangmate can fly in another hauler to empty the wreck. There is a better solution, using the same setup you're speaking about : spread the loot among both transport in order to reduce the appeal of the ship, costs the exact same, and may (depending on loot) make the ganking equation negative. For me the defense problem stated above is not the cause of ganking. Because even with defense, it doesn't change the fact that the ganker cost / ganked cost it still, by far, advantageous for the gankers. I don't blame gankers for blowing up fools with 2 billion in their cargo hold in paper thin industrials. However, industrial players should be able to handle material and mineral transport without making it profitable for gankers. Which means, benefits of blowing full cargo of most material goods should be lower than ganking cost, and not higher as it is today.
Xedrik Amarr Supernova Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:40:00 - [76] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Which means, benefits of blowing full cargo of most material goods should be lower than ganking cost, and not higher as it is today. Cargo insurance, anyone? --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."
Callente Riveara	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:48:00 - [77] I got locked and scanned in 0.6 space last night. I sent a message to the guy and talked to him for a bit. He said that if I had 150mil+ of cargo, its worth it for them to Pop you. He also mentioned that his corp (cant remember the name) makes Billions off of this (he said they just popped a guy 10 minutes before I got there that had 3bil worth) I think the key is to carry just enough cargo that it would make the attacker LOSE money on the kill. I think if you could leapfrog shipments from station to station on your route you might be able to get past getting ganked. However, I dont know if this would work for high dollar corps, who could replace the ship without losing much of anything. On top of that, i was autopiloting through...which I suppose isnt good (I was also AFK , BUT in my defense, I was totally empty, in fact, I didnt even have moduals loaded...mainly because I lost my REAL hauler in 0.4 to a raven :-( )
heheheh Singularity. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:08:00 - [78] Originally by: Jaggeh tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. I think this is an exploit tbh.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:20:00 - [79] It's simple for high sec stuff: Figure out the cost for people wanting to suicide gank you (how many domi's are needed), divide that cost by 3 and be sure to not haul anything over that value. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:39:00 - [80] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Jaggeh tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. I think this is an exploit tbh. It is, I remember reading about it a long time ago.
Saldar Salt	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:47:00 - [81] Well, a friend and I (different corps) have come to a very sad conclusion. There is zero protection against a determined gank squad. So we do travel as a pair, him in a T2 hauler and me in a cheap fit Caracal. I attempt to scout for him to avoid what we can. But when things go south and we run into a gank squad anyway - then my job is not defense. At that point my sole job is to target and destroy his shipÆs wreck. We figure once we get ganked, we have lost it all. My objective is to prevent the cargo from landing in the other guys hands. We decided that if we lose, then so should they. Sure they will get the insurance for the ships but there will be no additional loot to offset the cost of the gank. And yes CONCORD also destroys me. That is fine because I get insurance too.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.08.25 18:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Saldar Salt Well, a friend and I (different corps) have come to a very sad conclusion. There is zero protection against a determined gank squad. So we do travel as a pair, him in a T2 hauler and me in a cheap fit Caracal. I attempt to scout for him to avoid what we can. But when things go south and we run into a gank squad anyway - then my job is not defense. At that point my sole job is to target and destroy his shipÆs wreck. A good strategy - but another thing. If you scout an enemy gank squad ahead of your friend, why doesn't he just dock up? Or even better, dock up, drop the cargo, undock and then fly into them anyway. If they don't scan you again they'll you'll end up with a bunch of free wrecks to salvage at very little cost to yourself. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.08.25 19:39:00 - [83] Originally by: Saldar Salt We figure once we get ganked, we have lost it all. My objective is to prevent the cargo from landing in the other guys hands. The best solution with current mechanics, in my opinion. You've no longer got it, so deny it to the thief. Heck, it would be cool to have a "fast destruct" high-slot module that blows up your ship and all cargo with it with no delay. The idea of splitting the cargo equally between two or more haulers each individually capable of carrying the entire load is also good, as you loose less per destroyed hauler and have a greater chance of recovering some of it, at the cost of having the survivor(s) potentially becoming more attractive as the journey progresses. I'm ambivalent these days on the idea of losing insurance payouts when popped by CONCORD, having seen too many friends over the years lose their ships because of accidents. The only way I'd support such a move was if they made the loss of insurance dependant on whether or not you have a security status penalty levied on you for destroying a players ship in the last couple of minutes. And something else that would need to be answered is how would that system interact for people going up against CONCORD on agent missions?
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.08.26 11:27:00 - [84] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Originally by: Barbaro55a Ask nicely in local "Is anyone scanning me? cos I have a cargo hold full of Mega, and don't want to loose it" Then you should be fine, People are generally nice in Eve. They may even offer to help you haul some of it. 9 points for nice try at least... I'd suggest choosing a better defended ship or getting an escort when you haul more valuable stuff, or when you haul stuff period. Evered staged a Black Op to suicide a freighter ? Ever tried Defending one ? Realy don't suggest ppl to Escort in High Sec , if you are not at war is pointless . Cheers
Sean Dillon Caldari Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.08.26 13:46:00 - [85] Whine enough untill CCP nerf suicide gankers, or start being more carefull with your cargo's. Use your corp's carriers, or bs's in empire to transport valuable goodies in.
Sazkyen	Posted - 2007.08.26 14:03:00 - [86] Edited by: Sazkyen on 26/08/2007 14:09:48 I usually move expensive modules by simply fitting them on the ship. People - it seems - mostly scan for the cargo and not the fittings A Gist C-Type X-Large Shield booster and two Gistii A-Type small shield boosters fitted on a Drake is unexpected Ofc if they happen to scan my ship once instead of the cargo then I'm a goner. Seriously, aside from some hard core maximalists, is there people who would scan the fittings on a Bestower for example?
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.08.26 14:08:00 - [87] As it is now you don't have to fill a freighter with expensive stuff to make it a viable target for suicide-ganks. Many common every-day commodities will make it profitable.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.08.26 14:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Caletha Reborn As the number of items are specificly added to lag out the person scanning you, the 'solution' you mention is an exploit. I'm 99.9% sure a GM or Dev once said that as well. ^in refrence to the single junk items in the hold defense^ This is my favorite. An exploit to lag someone passive scanning you RISK free in empire to see if you are carrying enough junk to cover the losses of their fully insured bs's and make a tidy profit. Serously if any dev said that they need to be slapped upside the head. And where is the risk vs reward for the gankers the scanning alts? Oh wait there is none. Concord dont blow up pods, a tiny sec hit for the gankers so they will have to rat or something to make it back, the scanner alts? well they have absolutely no risk at all they can keep scanning at that gate all day 23/7 looking for people to blow up. Now everyone talks about the risk vs reward for the freighter pilots of course every time well if you are rich, greedy enough to want to haul 400 million in cargo all the risk should be on you seems to be the prevailing wisdom, and ccp seems to agree, heck they are even trying to make it easier for the gankers. no more can you hide your cargo in courrier missions, or secure containers. Oh wait get a scout "escort" well in busy systems who knows jita and other systems can have 15 to 30 people at or near the gate as a course of normal travel. And what is to stop gank squads to just sit that alt in a noob ship somewhere else and tell their crew where you are headed? while your scanner escort jumps ahead to look your big slow freighter takes something like 3 minutes to line up then get into warp, yea i can see how a scout would be so much help. Might stop you from warping into a gank squad or the gank squad will just warp to you either way. Nerf insurance payouts for concord kills. WTH sense is it for people to get insurance payout from comitting criminal acts over and over and over that get their ships destroyed. Make scanners in empire ILLEGAL, give people kill rights when someone scans them. Hey you want to haul afk in your freighter? Well you can still die. You want to sit near your computer pay attention to local and your overview, you might just catch a scanner alt and take appropriate measures to inform your corp, gang, escort and warp to a station or someplace that might be safer than continuing on. You want to scan someone gang with them or be in the same corp. 95% of scanning in empire is to see if target X is going to cover our losses YYY and make us ZZZisk. As far as the single items garbage in hold being an exploit, if someone takes the time to arrange items one at a time in their hold, and is not forcing people to scan them it should effect noone that is not up to piracy and if any dev said it is an exploit to make these risk free pirate gankers lives a bit more difficult they should be fired.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.08.26 16:41:00 - [89] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Jaggeh tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. I think this is an exploit tbh. So, is there a reason you waited two, almost three months, before responding to this? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Miki Fin Gallente Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2007.08.26 17:22:00 - [90] Edited by: Miki Fin on 26/08/2007 17:22:49 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Jaggeh tested with corpmate 1 Iteron IV (10k m3 space) 1000 trit in singles 1000 bookmarks real cargo worth roughly 4bn By the time he had scanned me and his sheet updated i was 2 jumps away. I think this is an exploit tbh. So, is there a reason you waited two, almost three months, before responding to this? Its because he is an idiot tbh, and no, it's not an exploit, the Gm's say it isn't, so it's not.
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.08.27 00:15:00 - [91] Howcome you get an insurance-payout when YOU are the aggressor in High-sec? If I run a man down in my car, on purpose, I for sure won't get any money from my insurancecompany.... Just a thought. rgds
Caldari34852	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:08:00 - [92] Originally by: SirMoric Howcome you get an insurance-payout when YOU are the aggressor in High-sec? If I run a man down in my car, on purpose, I for sure won't get any money from my insurancecompany.... Just a thought. rgds If you bought unconditional insurance from a company that deals with your kind and charges large premiums? Maybe they make more money getting all the information about who shoots who with what and what dies than the insurance fees? I think so.
Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:24:00 - [93] My advice would be to warp to a belt then from the belt to the gate. The pirates align to the normal warp route if you come from a different one that makes their job harder and you will be probably away before they react. It depends on situations of course. Bookmark jump has been nerfed but I think it's still possible to bookmark a location behind the gate then warp there then warp to the gate. Still not 100% safe but gives you a minor advantage.
Ashaz Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:06:00 - [94] Grab your standard edition Alt (TM). Put him/her in a suspicious looking hauler. Something that is sure to be scanned if the scanning crowd is around. Put a BM in the cargohold with some offensive message that will make them want to pop you. Now, they pop your alts hauler. concord comes to look at the show, then proceeds to pop the criminals. At this point you jump through with your real hauler. see? easy __________________________________ Gallente by birth. Amarr by choice. iDrone

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