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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:09:00 -
[31]
This is a great idea but i think more needs to be added.
Missiles should be close to doubled in damage and such....but in turn add in better anti missile defense modules,
chaff and flare are common anti missile systems used on modern day war craft. The only thing we have are defender missile that dont even work.
or an anti missile gun designed soley for missile shooting, it has optimal range etc and auto targets in comming missiles.
This would add more variety and dilute some of the shield tanks and such.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:10:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Ruffles on 13/01/2004 11:15:02
 Quote:
Well i still think that cruiser missiles should be aible to hit any target it locks on to, including "smaller" targets as a frigate. More skill trained more advantage? or am i wrong?
Not quite what is meant I don't think.
He did say that if the smaller targets are stationary or very slow moving you will still have a high chance to hit them, but that the faster they are moving the harder it will be for bigger missiles to track/turn on them. A cruise missile isn't going to turn 160 degrees from its fire line fast to track a frigate, as it will need to build up speed before it becomes more agile.
Much akin to the difference between large turrets trying to track on a slow or fast moving frigate.
A cruise missile doesn't turn like a sidewinder does, and has a different role of long range bombardment mostly.
Quote:
With regards to torps being close range weapons your not taking into account one big factor: splash damage. If a Raven started firing 6 Torps at close rage it's going to take some serious damage. Torps should be slow, ungainly but very powerful BS/Station killers.
I am not trying to make them tooo short, I think I suggested 30-40km, rather then the same sorts of ranges that cruise missiles have now. You train higher in launcher operations to get cruise missiles, why should the torps be as long ranged and deal more damage then cruise? Thats why I suggested a reduced range on them.
I think the very short ranged things I was talking about was a suggestion to make rockets comparible to blasters, as the range and flight time is short, perhaps the damage should be higher.
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Starwolf
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:37:00 -
[33]
Can you imagine the conversation on the USS Enterprise?
Kirk: Load Photon Torpedoes Lieutenant Sulu
Sulu: Torpedoes loaded captain
Kirk: Fire 4 torpedoes
Sulu: Torpedoes away captain
Spock: 1 Torpedo has hit Captain
Kirk: The other three Mr Spock?
Spock: Have been destroyed by splash damage Captain!
Kirk: WTF?
Spock: Due to our inability to target more than one location on a 900m ship the torpedoes blew up in the explosion from the first torpedo.
Kirk: Suxors
I believe it is actually quite difficult to blow up a missile in RL, yes it is possible but Exocet missiles blowing up a ship don't seem to suffer from this problem. Methinks there is an issue here.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:46:00 -
[34]
This is great news, if it's done well it will balance frig v frig while making frigs a little more effective v cruisers and battleships.
I can't wait 
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:47:00 -
[35]
A side note of missile changes TomB.
If lights are made faster, the refire times of some of the NPC rats might need to be looked at. Specifically some of the missile ships perhaps.
Can you imagine a poor newbie in a merlin or something like that facing a kestrel chain-firing infinite amounts of missiles without reload times which cover the ground at 3km/s, and from further then their gun range. It might turn things like the Guristas Plunderer into one hell of a mean fight for a newbie in a turret type ship. Either that or possibly force reload times on missile using NPC's, where some can just chain-fire presently.
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TomB
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Posted - 2004.01.13 11:55:00 -
[36]
Arming time had been suggested before but with agility tunings, players can still stasis a fast moving close range ships for their cruise missiles just as battleships with turrets can.
"Where is my hat?" |
Denst Rowell
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Posted - 2004.01.13 12:25:00 -
[37]
GOOD IDEA
smaller should be harder to hit bigger should be easier
bs can't have a;;your cake and eat it .
it would be nice to see missles miss every now and again
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The Return Of Denst |
Skaz
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Posted - 2004.01.13 12:25:00 -
[38]
Me like this...
Frigates are starting to become more and more attracting as warships now, given their flexibility, also that point about rate of fire based on the missile size is a nice suggestion.
Much better direction of balance thank you
"No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..." |
reef
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Posted - 2004.01.13 13:29:00 -
[39]
TomB: I love your propositions. In addition to Jim's requests for fixes I have one.
Can we make missile explode on impact as opposed to proximity
This may help stop the missiles destroying each other when fired in close succession.
_____________________________________________
For all your BS needs, buy XiiX Technologies.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.13 13:33:00 -
[40]
Missles are impossible to use in asteroid belts, they almost always hit asteroids instead of the ships you want to hit.
Infact it's a good way to lose your ship to warp in, get scrambled and then pummeled by NPCs behind asteroids.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Nemesis I
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Posted - 2004.01.13 13:57:00 -
[41]
Isnt the agility the wrong way around?
To make a fast moving object change course in space is much harder than a slow moving one!
Nem
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2004.01.13 14:15:00 -
[42]
Thank you for admitting after about 2 months that the problem with missiles lie in bigger missiles being able to hit smaller ships.
I hope you manage to fix that.
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Beta Vixen
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Posted - 2004.01.13 14:39:00 -
[43]
Can we at least come close to replicating the physics of the situation?
Long range missiles are huge and must be in order to carry all their fuel. "Huge" effectively means that frigates can carry only very few of them, perhaps one, and that reloading is a slow process.
"Huge" also means that such weapons must have low acceleration and will have high inertia (slow turning ability) at the high speeds achieved by the end of their run.
By contrast, small missiles will have short ranges but very high accelerations and quick turning ability. They'll also be fast loading.
Making an mwd equipped frigate able to effectively outrun all missiles while popping off huge cruise missiles or torps at their reloading interval is pretty silly, physically speaking. Such ships should be vulnerable to small missiles and be able to launch their huge weapons only once before a lengthy reload process [like 10 RL minutes outside a station].
Then we'd have balance again in fleet actions -- groups of fast frigates would be dangerous to unescorted battleships (in part because the battleships would likely have the wrong loadouts to catch the frigates) and so fleets composed of battleships, cruisers, and frigates would return.
Thanks for listening,
****
I'm free! I'm free!!
****
Imagination comes before Accomplishment.
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Nemesis I
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Posted - 2004.01.13 15:31:00 -
[44]
Remember your in space - no gravity no form of resistance etc etc... So space missiles arnt going to be comparable to Earth bound ones!
Shoot one out of your ship at 10,000 ms it will fly at 10,000 ms until it hits something or you try to slow it or turn it with reverse thrusters.
Nem
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Celt Eireson
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Posted - 2004.01.13 16:35:00 -
[45]
Hmmm with frigates still being able to launch cruise things could be very interesting when the elite frigates come out, I was looking through the eve-db files and there appear to be a couple that have 6 launcher bays :-)
Hmmm a frigate that can launch a volley of 6 cruise missiles, I'd be a very worried cruiser pilot!
With regards to the changes, they seem reasonable with one slight issue (if I'm interpreting what Tomb has said correctly) in that it looks like frigates won't really be able to dodge cruise missiles at long range which is effectively forcing them into close range combat against missile users, which in some respects is fair enough.
I guess I always had the idea that each successive increase in damage potential for a missile would also mean a reduced agility, not necessarily faster/slower.
i.e.
Rockets are short range, very fast and highly agile, designed specifically for attacks against drones/frigates. Light damage but rapid firing.
Light missiles are short/medium range, very fast, and almost as agile, good against frigates. Better damage but slower firing.
Heavy missiles, long range, fast, reasonably agile, aimed primarily against cruisers though capable of hitting a frigate.
Cruise missiles very long range, very fast, but not as agile as a heavy missile. Aimed primarily against cruisers/battleships, almost no chance of hitting a frigate that is trying to dodge it (i.e. not someone who is coming straight on :-) )
Torpedos - very long range, fast, and appalling agility and cant turn worth a damn. Good only against slow moving battleships / stations but deals a hell of a lot of damage.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.13 16:38:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 13/01/2004 17:03:05
missles need to be more effective at long range, atleast cruise missles do. there has to be a way for cruise missles not to be effective against frigates at short range, but so that a cruise missle can cover 30-80km fairly quickly.
a lot of fleet battles occur at 50km+ and missles are so slow, if you see a huge blob of missles coming at you, you can just warp away..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kyroki Tirpellan
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Posted - 2004.01.13 16:59:00 -
[47]
This looks very promising, I look forward to trying this if/when you put it on Chaos
My only point on the matter (ok even a tad off-topic, sorry about that...): I think the missile skills themselves could use some work, especially Torpedos. As it is I have no interest in training it above L1, bigger splash is actually worse imho. Instead I would suggest improved speed for torpedos per skill level, or even damage.
Peace through love, understanding and superior firepower.
Real men structure tank! |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.01.13 18:26:00 -
[48]
BTW tomB can u look at why defenders kill all ur speed when launched. EX have someone chase you firing missiles.... try to keep range and move away from them. Have them shoot a missile at you. Launch a defender to intercept said missile. Your speed drops to virtually nil on a bship, it's a real pain getting away from your insanely overpowering npc spawns when your defenders keep preventing you from warping.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.13 18:35:00 -
[49]
One thing I'd like to add is this:
Since cruise missles and torpedoes are now regulated to battleships because only the seige launcher can effectively use them..
ONLY LARGE SMART BOMBS AND DEFENDER MISSLES SHOULD DESTROY THEM.
It's silly a guy can nullify my seige launchers attack, which attacks quite slowly, with a medium highslot module.
Medium Smart Bombs should only be really effective against heavys and lower, Small against Lights and lower, Micro vs rockets.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Scragg
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Posted - 2004.01.13 19:42:00 -
[50]
I've noticed missiles don't seem to slow down like ships do when they make a hard turn.
For example... I shoot a cruise missile at a frigate that is closing on me and the frigate does a little jig manuver so the cruise missile misses him... the missile flys past him, does a 180 degree turn and headd for the frigat at what seems to be top speed.
When a missile makes a sharp turn it should slow slightly like ships do and suffer the proposed agility penalty for the lower speed as at speeds up. This would give a small fast frigate a chance to out manuver a large missle that is chasing it.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation
Vice-Director Military Operations |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.01.13 22:02:00 -
[51]
I don't get something, that is:
If a missle is slow it doesn't make nice turns and is sluggish.
If a missle is fast it turns nice and its agile.
So what the game is heading for is that if i cruise with my car at lets say 20km/h into a little child on a bike, i hit her because my car is sluggish...
But if i cruise in my car at 160km/s i easily avoid this child because im more agile?
I can give more examples like boats in the water ripping drown people apart while cruising slow, but i hope we get the point here. 
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.01.13 22:24:00 -
[52]
If you ride your car at 160km/s you won't even have time to react. 
I agree that it's a bit weird, yes... Not that I know lots of physics 
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.01.13 22:45:00 -
[53]
It's EVE not RL! |
Dark Razer
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Posted - 2004.01.13 22:46:00 -
[54]
While having Cruise missiles more agile when they are faster, is againced physics, I think its better for the game machanics.
I would like to see Torpedoes changed dramaticly. Remove Cruise missiles from frigates, and let them equip torpedoes. But, make torpedoes a slow, close range weapon. max speed 700-1000ms, starting speed 300-500ms, same damage at the moment. This gives a kestrel a big damage potential (1900 a bit high maybe), BUT, they have to get within 10kms to be inrange of launching them. This would give a HUGE boost to frigates, and yes, battleships would fear frigates. But, at the same time, a frigate will die in 2 shots of a 1400.
It would almost FORCE combined fleets. You would need your own kestrels, rifters etc. with heavy missiles to take down thoes bombers. Battleships would Need to be escorted.
While, i know battleship pilots wouldn't like this (i'm one myself), I think it would be better for the game, properly ballanced.
Thx,
D_R
***Curse Alliance Member* |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.01.14 00:10:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/01/2004 00:12:03
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/01/2004 00:11:39
On missile agility - think of it this way:
Missile, 10m/s
If it starts here:
-
(note: dots are there to make it format right)
Then after a second, it be any one of :
.-
.-
.-
However, at 30 m/s, with ROUGHLY the same turning rate, it can be at:
...-
...-
...-
...-
...-
Hope that clarifies things a little.
No, it dosn't really help is the missile misses and has to turn arround but it does mean that it's more likely to hit a target assuming it starts by thrustring in the right direction.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
TomB
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Posted - 2004.01.14 02:05:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Isnt the agility the wrong way around?
To make a fast moving object change course in space is much harder than a slow moving one!
Basically yes but at current stage we can't give missiles true guidance to aim for objects at long range and it's not tunable to get this effect, missiles always have better guidance at close range than long range because they can turn instantly.
Because of this there is lesser chance of dodging missiles at close range than long range, even though missiles are considered long range weapons in EVE, we have to keep possibilities open to make faster T2 missiles, skills to increase speed or modules.
You can also test this in a heavy ship, if you are stop and start moving 180¦ backwards your ship will turn instantly and head for that direction, instead of starting the thrusters and taking a U-turn. But we have no intention of changing that at all.
Another idea was to make "max turning ratio ¦ per meter" but this is an easier solution and we will see how the out come will be when we get this on the test server.
EVE missile fighting will be a little more like in a big pool of water than space. 
"Where is my hat?" |
McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.14 14:34:00 -
[57]
Quote:
You can also test this in a heavy ship, if you are stop and start moving 180¦ backwards your ship will turn instantly and head for that direction, instead of starting the thrusters and taking a U-turn. But we have no intention of changing that at all.
thx for explaining this TomB. has always been very irritating to me.
would be very gratefull for any further explanation of similar effects, agility still feels horribly bugged to me!!!
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Polux
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Posted - 2004.01.15 10:56:00 -
[58]
I would like to know if you are going to give the little short range missles some boost in damage, if we are to use them at short range they will need to do more then just 50
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Nervar
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Posted - 2004.01.15 14:20:00 -
[59]
I have a couple off beefs with misilles atm:
1: damn expensive
2: The whole deal with Ravens/cpu/siege launcher needs some attention, as some has stated before mee.
3: H-50`s capacaty nerf should not go true
4: other than that i think misilles are well balanced towards turret ships.
Would bee nice with some warp/module jamming misiles, since after all caldari is supposed to bee masters at long range, but warp scramblers have a range off 20k......
------------------------------------------------->
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.01.15 15:38:00 -
[60]
As far as seige launchers etc go, maybe it needs some fine tuning, but I don't think the launcher is the problem, it's the missiles moving too slowly and blowing each other up.
If turrets can pass through rock I think it's fair enough that missiles have some kind of "intelligence" that lets them avoid each other.
There isn't a battleship in the game that is able to fit a full compliment of the best most powerful turrets and bays without compromise and I don't see why it should be so with a Raven.
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