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Make EVE hardcore again or "Reverse Carebearization"

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Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:03:00 - [91] Originally by: Malcanis "What you fail to realize is that you can't force a carebear into being a hardcore gamer. You take out lvl 4 missions and high sec mining, he will find another carebear solution, or eventually quit the game. So what's the point?" A game with fewer whiney carebears in it. Malcanis, what you fail to see is that CCP wants even more "whiney carebears" in their game because more players mean more money for them. And since there aren't that many people who like so-called hardcore pvp it's the carebears who have to fill the gap. Is it that hard to understand? I fail to understand why carebears annoy PvP players that much. We do not stand in your way when you want to play the game the way you like. And we are the ones who make your mods, ammo and ships. Yes, PvPers can do that on their own, but I'm ready to bet that you don't invest that much time in production, research and mining as we do.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:05:00 - [92] Originally by: Ephemeron Blah-blah-blah Signed and them some! I wish they would remove the stacking nerf as well on account of sucking. -------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
Fink Angel Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Malcanis You know, since the "hardcore" players were here first. Great argument. The hardcore players were here first. The game has evolved over 4 years into the game it is today. A hardcore player starts a thread complaining the game needs to be hardcore again, like in the good old days. Now, put on your Sherlock Holmes hat, follow the clues, and see what CCP are trying to do here.
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Malcanis "What you fail to realize is that you can't force a carebear into being a hardcore gamer. You take out lvl 4 missions and high sec mining, he will find another carebear solution, or eventually quit the game. So what's the point?" A game with fewer whiney carebears in it. But the other whiners can stay, right? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Kassandra Tillman	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Sounds great if you want empty servers and CCP not being able to afford their electrical bill PvP is what made Eve popular, if they keep making it more carebear they are going to lose people. No one cares if all the macro miners and isk farming mission runners quit. Hate to break it to you. right now the majority of pvp is gate camps and suicide ganks, how do your suggestions help this?
Alexoin	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:42:00 - [96] Ok apparently everyone started playing Eve because it is a PVP game. My question is, how many people started playing Eve because it is the ONLY space based MMORPG out there? (SWG isnt really a space based MMO). Probably more than started playing it for the PvP. I certainly didnt start playing Eve for the PvP, in fact I wasnt that aware of it until after I started playing. It certainly isnt mentioned under features here (http://www.eve-online.com/features/), or non-consentual PvP mentioned in any of the advertising I've seen.
Sparkius Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:56:00 - [97] I like EVE because it is sci-fi and somewhat gritty - not because it is "hardcore". Make 0.0 as nasty as you want, but leave Empire alone. If you decrease the size of high-sec, it will just make the remaining zones more crowded. People will still find ways to avoid PvP and your proposed changes. I don't have much time to play, and it's almost always solo. I want a chance to see top-level content (ships and modules), and I invest the same amount of time in skills to use it so don't force me into your game in order to get it. Level 4 agents in high-sec already offer decreased rewards and LP versus those in low-sec. Change insurance, change clone costs, change 0.0 rat spawns. Please leave Empire alone. Not everyone plays EVE for the PvP. <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence." - Anoymous
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Alexoin Ok apparently everyone started playing Eve because it is a PVP game. My question is, how many people started playing Eve because it is the ONLY space based MMORPG out there? (SWG isnt really a space based MMO). Probably more than started playing it for the PvP. I started for the space environment. I spent 90% of the last few months in SWG in space, PvPing my ass off. I was good at it, I was equipped for it, I had the skills to support it. I fully intend to get my feet into the PvP here as well. Really, I have been. I've been on anti-pirate actions in Providence to the tune of about 500 million in components and ships blasted. When I can afford to lose ships again, I'll be back at it. PvP is a part of the game, its not the ONLY part. I run missions, I rat, I mine, and when I get around to figuring them out, I'll be exploring and crafting too. Just because I happen to enjoy the vs computer end of this game does not an iota rob me of the desire to x up when the gangs are called for. People who play any game and solely focus on one aspect to the point of obsession really lose out on the full spectrum of what a game has to offer. People who obsess on one part of a game and expect the development team to scrap everything that doesn't interest them are complete ******* idiots.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:17:00 - [99] Folks, I've played this game for years, living mostly in 0.0, but also living in empire now and then. GET OVER THE OBSESSION WITH 0.5+ CAREBEARS DOING WELL FOR THEMSELVES IN GAME. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE. Yes, it is right and proper for the game to develope and improve, but many folks have an unhealthy obsession with, and hatred of, carebears. GET OVER IT. Let them do their thing in 0.5+ and have their fun. Shoot them when they venture into low sec or if they are unwise or careless on cargo moving. it is NOT a question of getting them into low sec, as they are simply NOT going to go there. It is a question of having a healthy and vibrant part of the game in 0.5+ or NOT having it and GETTING NOTHING POSITIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR DRIVING OUT THE CAREBEARS. That Eve is actually a variety of games in manditory to its health. Quote: Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Sasakisan	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:24:00 - [100] Now that casual gamers have been identified as the future of EVE's suscription growth, I fear that EVE will continue to evolve into a more softcore game. You have already identified several tweaks to EVE that push it in the more softcore direction. One can't really blame CCP for this as they are neither a nonprofit company nor a charitable organization and a niche game with a saturated market and a high maintenance player base can only generate so much ROI. If these changes continue, the new mantra on the forums to those voicing dissatisfaction with EVE game play or mechanics or those asking for game changes may soon be, "EVE is designed to be a fun game for softcore gamers targeted at the mass market. If you want a hardcore game, then EVE may not be for you."
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:33:00 - [101] Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 07/06/2007 20:33:38 Originally by: Malcanis or, since EvE is meant to be a dark, brutal, non-consensual-PvP game in the first place, why don't we let the carebears have their own server? You know, since the "hardcore" players were here first. For non-consensual pvp to work, you need people who do not consent to pvp. Ever thought about that? [Edit] Typo.
Van'Klomp Minmatar KarWal Corporation FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:46:00 - [102] It's the old "I hate carebears" crap... I wonder how many of them hate the hardcore? And the variety in this game is what I love, I PvP in 0.0, I low-sec mine, and I high-sec mission run.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:47:00 - [103] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 07/06/2007 20:33:38 Originally by: Malcanis or, since EvE is meant to be a dark, brutal, non-consensual-PvP game in the first place, why don't we let the carebears have their own server? You know, since the "hardcore" players were here first. For non-consensual pvp to work, you need people who do not consent to pvp. Ever thought about that? [Edit] Typo. Most of the anti-carebear crowd have difficulty with conceptual thought. Too much activity in the backbrain near the pleasure centers stemming from the action/reward stimulus of PvP combat for the frontal lobes to get adequate exercise.
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:02:00 - [104] I ask my self what is happend then to the ppls who start this game.? Well big alliances. strong corps against a New player. To start his carrer he had to earn isks(most time via mining) The next step s most time are going hunting Npcs to find out which guns he favorise then. step by step the new player get experiences. Of he feel nerfed in the beginning . How u can keep them playing the game for a long time? I had show friends this game, but noone played longer then 30 days. comments was Nice Tutorial/ nice grafik -to complicated to grow up and make something worth doing it . - i had look into low sec serveral time but it tooks only seconds and i woked up ina a clone station... 1 time is funny but **** i had now work on a new cruiser again... Resetting this game into such a high hardcore game coud have a negative setback. "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Drou Koudeleka	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:04:00 - [105] Edited by: Drou Koudeleka on 07/06/2007 21:13:34 Originally by: Janu Hull Most of the anti-carebear crowd have difficulty with conceptual thought. Too much activity in the backbrain near the pleasure centers stemming from the action/reward stimulus of PvP combat for the frontal lobes to get adequate exercise. Far too cerebral for them to understand. My view is that most of the 'ganktards' are asocial, somewhat lacking in overall intelligence and are generally people for whom ganking is the pinnacle of their existence. Far too often, such players are those who most deserve a solid boot to the head - but would bend over backwards to avoid said well deserved boot to the head were one in close physical proximity... Gamers game to satisfy needs which are not met in their day to day lives. Imagine how pathetic one must be to feel that no threat gankage is superior to what they do in the real world. I've been gaming on-line since the day of 300 baud acoustic couplers, and the pattern stays the same... there are always those who need to feel superior at the expense of others, no matter how lame the mechanisms they use to prove said 'superiority'.
Adariana	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:17:00 - [106] Edited by: Adariana on 07/06/2007 21:17:16 Edited by: Adariana on 07/06/2007 21:15:56 Originally by: Drou Koudeleka My view is that most of the 'ganktards' are asocial, somewhat lacking in overall intelligence and are generally people for whom ganking is the pinnacle of their existence. Far too often, such players are those who most deserve a solid boot to the head - but would bend over backwards to avoid said well deserved boot to the head were one in close physical proximity... /signed To quote Penny Arcade: Internet + Anonymity +_ Audience = Raging Moronic Fuxxtard.
Lynal Gallente Peregrin Avionics	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:50:00 - [107] Originally by: Ephemeron Unfortunately (for me) CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like. In particular, they did so by: 1. boosting insurance 2. boosting missions 3. reducing clone costs 4. making 0.0 NPC spawns much easier to kill and avoid 5. reducing number of low security empire systems by increasing security ok, im confused. carebears are the people who don't want to pvp right? lets ask the question why they play a game like eve and don't want to pvp... because the cost is too high right? and you want them to pvp right? rather than stay away and never be a good target? soooo... i fail to see how your list is a bad thing. all those things encourage those who are less brave and less likely to risk their pretty (and expensive) ships to actually... pvp! take away the things you've listed and you take away some of the incentive for the carebears to pvp (even more than now)... end result is that they fight even less and you get even more frustrated with the system.
Lynal Gallente Peregrin Avionics	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Frug I agree with all but the mission nerfing. L4 missions could be a bit harder, but moving them all to low sec would be too big a hit. not really... carebears would just run endless lvl 3's in high sec and never bother with the lvl 4's... and then someone would come on here and whine until all lvl 3's were sent to low sec... and the carebears would do lvl 2's... etc etc. see the pattern? a carebear will not pvp unless the risks are lessened... all the things the op is opposed to lessen those risks and encourage carebear pvp... take away any of them and you make the carebear want to pvp even less than he already does.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:00:00 - [109] My gosh... carebears PVP... carebears are hardcore. There are so many play styles in this game we don't need you to force your selfish pity on others and tell them what to do. There are a lot of miners and ratters in 0.0 who swap ships in a second to help pvp and defend their space. Get a clue. There are no more carebears in Eve, if you think that... you're wasting your time on trying to find your own reasoning. People throw that term around like its demeaning, but it only makes me laugh cuz you can't think of anything better to call anyone in this game that can do more than you... and wants to do more than you.
Lynal Gallente Peregrin Avionics	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:02:00 - [110] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Sounds great if you want empty servers and CCP not being able to afford their electrical bill PvP is what made Eve popular, if they keep making it more carebear they are going to lose people. No one cares if all the macro miners and isk farming mission runners quit. Hate to break it to you. um ya... tbh its more likely that the isk farmers and macro miners (as well as the rest of the carebear population) make up a far larger percentage of the subscriptions than the dedicated pvp crowd... ccp will likely care quite abit when such a large portion of their income disappears. and if you honestly don't believe that miners and such are a larger percent of the population... look at real life demographics. in every single social instance in existence throughout history there has always been far more people involved in infrastructure than fighting... there is zero evidence to support eve being the only social institution in the history of the planet being different... eve subscribers in general act and think exactly the same as the general human population.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:13:00 - [111] Originally by: Drou Koudeleka Gamers game to satisfy needs which are not met in their day to day lives. Imagine how pathetic one must be to feel that no threat gankage is superior to what they do in the real world. Amen. I spend most of my day scamming bureaucrats and humiliating contractors... I come home and log on to find a little grace in the world.
Drou Koudeleka	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:16:00 - [112] Edited by: Drou Koudeleka on 07/06/2007 22:15:12 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Drou Koudeleka Gamers game to satisfy needs which are not met in their day to day lives. Imagine how pathetic one must be to feel that no threat gankage is superior to what they do in the real world. Amen. I spend most of my day scamming bureaucrats and humiliating contractors... I come home and log on to find a little grace in the world. Just goes to show that no single perspective is a complete perspective ;)
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:21:00 - [113] Originally by: Bistot Kid Originally by: Malcanis or, since EvE is meant to be a dark, brutal, non-consensual-PvP game in the first place, why don't we let the carebears have their own server? You know, since the "hardcore" players were here first. Erm, because the point was that the hardcore players actually make up such a minority. Do keep up old chap. If it ever did come down to two equally sized clusters, one where Concord provided absolute security in high sec for example, I'd be totally happy to move. You mean you made an unsupported assertion that they're in the minority?
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:27:00 - [114] eve have become worse for carebears over the years. so wtf are you talking about? O.o
Adariana	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:28:00 - [115] Originally by: Malcanis You mean you made an unsupported assertion that they're in the minority? Unsupported? Get online. Go to the map. Select the filter: Average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes. There is your proof.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:32:00 - [116] Originally by: Sian Tairnesh Originally by: Malcanis "What you fail to realize is that you can't force a carebear into being a hardcore gamer. You take out lvl 4 missions and high sec mining, he will find another carebear solution, or eventually quit the game. So what's the point?" A game with fewer whiney carebears in it. Malcanis, what you fail to see is that CCP wants even more "whiney carebears" in their game because more players mean more money for them. And since there aren't that many people who like so-called hardcore pvp it's the carebears who have to fill the gap. Is it that hard to understand? I fail to understand why carebears annoy PvP players that much. We do not stand in your way when you want to play the game the way you like. And we are the ones who make your mods, ammo and ships. Yes, PvPers can do that on their own, but I'm ready to bet that you don't invest that much time in production, research and mining as we do. Erm, EvE was designed from he start as a niche game. Carebears are annoying for one reason only: they cry for game changes that affect everyone. Players who mainly mine or manufacture or trade are not ipso facto carebears. Players who, rather than engage the game on equal terms believe that they deserve to "win" are carebears. Yet oddly, players who believe they should be invulnerable while mining or mission running never seem to think that combat PvPers should be immune from their economic PvP. Freighters or haulers that can't be ganked are the equivalent of player-owned Concord ships. It's not a good idea that I should have a ship that can't be destroyed and always wins fights; it's not a good idea that traders have a ship that gives them a huge, untouchable source of income. It's not a good idea that mission runners can't be found and attacked. Would you trade hi-sec invulnerability for a fixed at item database price market? How would it be if the only place where you could sell what you mine or make or loot for the price you like was in 0.0? Now that would be interesting, wouldn't it? Then Empire really would be as it was intended, the safe "training ground" that you have to leave if you really want to succeed at any aspect of the game. And - bonus! - Jita is fixed
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:34:00 - [117] Originally by: Adariana Originally by: Malcanis You mean you made an unsupported assertion that they're in the minority? Unsupported? Get online. Go to the map. Select the filter: Average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes. There is your proof. You fail logic. Prove that everyone in hi-sec hates combat.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:35:00 - [118] Edited by: d026 on 07/06/2007 22:36:04 need hardcore? take a frighter full of zyd and bump domis off the nrael gate.. tehre is your hardcore!
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:44:00 - [119] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Adariana Originally by: Malcanis You mean you made an unsupported assertion that they're in the minority? Unsupported? Get online. Go to the map. Select the filter: Average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes. There is your proof. You fail logic. Prove that everyone in hi-sec hates combat. That cuts both ways. Give me an accurate census of all known Raven farmers in 0.0.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:52:00 - [120] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Adariana Originally by: Malcanis You mean you made an unsupported assertion that they're in the minority? Unsupported? Get online. Go to the map. Select the filter: Average pilots in space in the last 30 minutes. There is your proof. You fail logic. Prove that everyone in hi-sec hates combat. That cuts both ways. Give me an accurate census of all known Raven farmers in 0.0. Thank you for proving my point that there is no accurate way to determine the proportion of 'hardcore' vs 'carebear'.

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