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Make EVE hardcore again or "Reverse Carebearization"

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Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Shoukei eve survives because its different from other mmo's, not because its trying to be like wow. I am in awe
w0rmy M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Ephemeron You argue from perspective of FPS style PvP. I understand if we make EVE into Counter Strike in space, we will greatly increase amount of PvP people do. However, that's not really what I am after. I want PvP that thrills me, and in order to be thrilled, I want something big to put on the line. I want people to be afraid to die. I want people to be serious when they commit to PvP. Im sure you play eve a lot more than most Im sure you have a lot more isk than most Im sure the things youre talking about will effect you less than most. The things youre talking about wont provide quality... they simply mean those with a larger quantity in their wallet, will be the only ones able to enjoy the game. Making a clone cost 32mill? That wont provide quality, that will simply mean that those without 32million in their wallet can no longer play. A bigger wallet != Quality player, or quality experience. Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness. Originally by: Dianabolic I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:41:00 - [33] But it's so easy to be selfish and inconsiderate when you're talking about what should happen
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:47:00 - [34] #4 /signed 0.0 belt spawns are pathetic.
Zoe Mygou	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:53:00 - [35] What you fail to realize is that you can't force a carebear into being a hardcore gamer. You take out lvl 4 missions and high sec mining, he will find another carebear solution, or eventually quit the game. So what's the point? And i agree that hardcore players are just people who can commit themselves to the game for more than 4-5 hours/day. If i have 1 spare hour to run a mission, i don't want to spend it watching my back for "hardcore" players who want to gank me, while i'm tanking a lvl 4 mission solo.
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Ephemeron I want PvP that thrills me, and in order to be thrilled, I want something big to put on the line. I want people to be afraid to die. I want people to be serious when they commit to PvP. Yes, that may be alright for you. But most people don't want to be afraid to play a game. People don't want to be serious, because playing is... well... playing! Yes, risk is necessary, but within some limits. Limits that allow you to stand up after you fell down, repeatedly. Or do you think it's fun to grind for weeks to replace what you've lost? A few minutes of thrilling combat don't make up for hours and hours of mining / running missions / trading. Oh, and by the way: I don't think that gamers become more hardcore the older they get. That's to broad a generalization.
Skeenee Al'Ramed Amarr kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:42:00 - [37] /over signed!!!
Gojyu	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:56:00 - [38] Quote: Unfortunately (for me) CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like What gave you the idea that eve was ever more hardcore than WoW? seriously, if "there's a penalty for dying" is your only excuse you need to take a look at the wow endgame. Eve is a wow pve server that you don't even need to log on to level up. You want to make eve hardcore? Halve skill training times, make it so that you only train while logged on, put a routine in the program that kicks you after 5min afk. Have standard mission areas, not instanced for each individual, let people fight for spawns. Now you've got a game almost as hardcore as wow, and it'd be crap. Eve's strengths are in it's casual initiatives such as offline training, if you want hardcore, there are a ton of games out there that will cater to your tastes better than eve will
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:04:00 - [39] 1. no 2. no 3. no 4. Yes please 5. hmm maybe maybe not.
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Gojyu Quote: Unfortunately (for me) CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like What gave you the idea that eve was ever more hardcore than WoW? seriously, if "there's a penalty for dying" is your only excuse you need to take a look at the wow endgame. Eve is a wow pve server that you don't even need to log on to level up. You want to make eve hardcore? Halve skill training times, make it so that you only train while logged on, put a routine in the program that kicks you after 5min afk. Have standard mission areas, not instanced for each individual, let people fight for spawns. Now you've got a game almost as hardcore as wow, and it'd be crap. Eve's strengths are in it's casual initiatives such as offline training, if you want hardcore, there are a ton of games out there that will cater to your tastes better than eve will So, the longer you have to spend online, the more hardcore it is?
Sian Tairnesh Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:07:00 - [41] Originally by: Gojyu Eve is a wow pve server that you don't even need to log on to level up. Er... Actually, EVE is more like a WoW PvP server. Why? Because in both cases you can attack anybody anytime you like. Yes, you get punished for attacking people in high sec, but that doesn't stop some people from doing it. In WoW you've got safe zones even on PvP servers. Small zones, but safe.
Gojyu	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:12:00 - [42] Edited by: Gojyu on 07/06/2007 09:14:17 Originally by: Aioa Originally by: Gojyu Quote: Unfortunately (for me) CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like What gave you the idea that eve was ever more hardcore than WoW? seriously, if "there's a penalty for dying" is your only excuse you need to take a look at the wow endgame. Eve is a wow pve server that you don't even need to log on to level up. You want to make eve hardcore? Halve skill training times, make it so that you only train while logged on, put a routine in the program that kicks you after 5min afk. Have standard mission areas, not instanced for each individual, let people fight for spawns. Now you've got a game almost as hardcore as wow, and it'd be crap. Eve's strengths are in it's casual initiatives such as offline training, if you want hardcore, there are a ton of games out there that will cater to your tastes better than eve will So, the longer you have to spend online, the more hardcore it is? Unless the definition of hardcore has changed recently.... yes. Quote: Er... Actually, EVE is more like a WoW PvP server. Why? Because in both cases you can attack anybody anytime you like. Yes, you get punished for attacking people in high sec, but that doesn't stop some people from doing it. In WoW you've got safe zones even on PvP servers. Small zones, but safe. True enough, but unlike in eve, when a player is actually in one of those zones there's not actually a lot they can do. As far as my (admittedly limited) experience has shown me, in eve you can come close to the top of the game without venturing into low sec once, which is something you can't do on a pvp server, hence my analogy
Annatar The Galactic Empire Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:35:00 - [43] Well with the introduction of Interdictors it isn't that easy to get away with a POD wich simply get you loosing your Implants and the Clone. That adds up to a nice ammount of ISK even with the new (cheap) prices on +4 Implants. Personally i already start to look at the newer players that you simply need a Million or two and only use +2 implants.(if any) Thats a really nice playstyle to just shredder like 5 frigs/with Clone a Day. If i would do even a singel day in that style i would been Broke. So atm the clone cost is good as it is, i already feel uncomforty if i need to pay the 60 million SP clone. sigh -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an Idoit, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:38:00 - [44] Edited by: cal nereus on 07/06/2007 09:40:46 I like my sandbox thank you very much. D:
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:53:00 - [45] Originally by: Gojyu Unless the definition of hardcore has changed recently.... yes. I don't think it's what the OP means by hardcore....
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Ephemeron Unfortunately (for me) CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like. In particular, they did so by: 1. boosting insurance 2. boosting missions 3. reducing clone costs 4. making 0.0 NPC spawns much easier to kill and avoid 5. reducing number of low security empire systems by increasing security Maybe people like these changes, but there are already many games with this style of play. If we want to keep EVE hardcore, we need to reverse those changes: 1. Nerf insurance. Keep current insurance system only for t1 frigs and cruisers. All other ship classes should have no NPC insurance coverage. Disable insurance for t1 frigs and cruisers if the character owning them has security status of -5 or lower, if if the ship was destroyed by CONCORD 2. Nerf missions. No level 4+ mission should be available in high security space. It's already hard enough to scan mission runners. Most level 4 mission runners in high sec are running Navy Ravens with faction gear, completely solo. This is evidence that they have it too easy. It should never be that easy in game like EVE. 3. Clone costs should be restored to Castor (or pre-castor) levels. A 45 mil sp char should be prepared to pay out 32 mil. 4. 0.0 belt spawn NPC strengths should be restored to Castor levels. In particular, there need to be much more warp scrambling and webbing NPCs. Currently, your average 0.0 isk farmer character with noobish skills uses a Raven with 2 warp core stabs and t1 cloak. Such a Raven setup has no problem if killing every possible 0.0 belt spawn. This is unacceptably easy. There should be at least some 0.0 belt spawns that are too hard for such poorly setup, poorly skilled Ravens. The fact that chinese macro miners started prefering 0.0 belt spawn farming to mining just shows how wrong things are going in EVE. 5. Many empire systems that had their security status raised to 0.5 and above should be returned back to 0.4 or below. At the same time, to balance out the shrinking high sec space, introduce measures that make high sec suicide ganking harder: such as CONCORD remote-repaiering the victim (will only help victims in big ships or well tanked ones). But the true nature of EVE should remain PvP, hence empire space should have a lot more low sec systems. strongly in favour of 2,4, against rest. Insurance only help the poorest, since rich ones fly t2 ships anyway so for me balance here is perfectly ok. Clones, well i think they were over the edge before.Unlike with ships if you are old palyer with many sp but not to often playing you cant choose not to update yuor clone, against it was hitting hard the epporest. low sec systems i just dont see the need, dont think they are to little. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:22:00 - [47] The beauty of EVE is simple, and it's why EVE saw a very slow start and then a steady growth, while all other MMOs explode at startup and almost immediately begin dying. Simply put, it can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be, in every facet of EVE gameplay. You want an easy industrial / financial game? Ignore mining and pay whatever price looks good on the market ATM for your goods. You want hard? Run an indy corp for profit. You want easy PvP? Organize a duel with one of your corpmates, or just don't PvP whatsoever. You want hard? Go to low-sec and paint a big fat bullseye on your hull. You want easy PvE / general combat? Turn the modules on and watch the other guy go boom. You want hard? The numbers are there, bust out your graphing calculator and start min/maxing. Missions, corp relations, strategy, earning isk, they all scale from almost brainlessly easy to hardcore beyond all reason. It sounds to me like you resent the easy portion. Instead, you should be finding what level of "hardcore" suits you, and smiling as you play it. You're one of those whiners imported from WoW that cared what armor the other guy was wearing. Stop trying to play everyone else's game for them, and play your game.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:28:00 - [48] Originally by: Ephemeron I understand that the majority of players prefer games like WoW But what about small minority of players who want a serious hardcore game? There are already many games that aim to appeal to that majority. Why should EVE become just like them? So what exactly is spoiling EVE for you? Will removing insurance and L4 missions from empire affect you at all? Are you trying to be a lowsec ganker who wants CCP to make it less "hardcore" for him to get his targets?
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:42:00 - [49] Well, if nothing else, this thread shows a fairly strong consensus in favor of nerfing big-money high sec mission running and super-easy 0.0 rats. I started the game near the end of Castor, so I barely remember what 0.0 was like then, but I think more variety/danger in belt rats cannot be a bad thing. Might make it a tad more difficult to set up a mining op, but, that's 0.0... As for low-sec/high-sec, I think it would be good if factional warfare included the option to raise/lower security status of a system within a certain range, depending on the status of the systems around it. This would give the empire huggers something game-wide to participate in and might actually increase the amount of 0.0. Dynamic truesec? That would be interesting.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:43:00 - [50] Edited by: Anehra on 07/06/2007 10:44:40 1) Sure, why not. 2) Seems reasonable to me. But afaik the lv5 (or at least the 6's, if I recall right from Hammerheads interview some month ago) will be in rare spots in 0.0 only. Tho, there'll probably still be lv4-runners soloing in Empire.. but you do realise it's easier to make money from running level 2 fast and salvage it, than running level 4 to farm LP? If anything, the salvaging should be less valuable. I know of 2 weeks old characters that made hundred of millions this way. 3) Stupid idea. You want pvp, I want pvp. Increasing clone cost will make people be more scared to lose their clone. In fact, I'd like to see a reduction in clone costs to make people take bigger risks. 4) I think the reason they are easy now is to make it more attractive to move to 0.0 tho rather than staying in Empire.. which would give you more targets. ;) 5) It'd only make Empire more crowded. Low sec just increases piracy and makes the pipes more annoying to run, i.e. more need of an escort. Currently I always been running pipes solo (perhaps with an alt scout), with longer pipes - and especially with more low sec - I'd definately bring a scout always and most likely jump with my friends.. or with a carrier. I'm not sure this is what you strive for? Don't get me wrong, I want more solo- and small gang pvp in this game, but I think most of your suggestions will only make the gangs bigger, and bring out even more bubble-camps.
Damares Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:47:00 - [51] the problem with this is it's no good for aot of players, not everyone wants to be forced to pvp all the time. insurance, nerf insurance i agreee, that will make me money ^^ but converting loads of high sec to low sec will ust screw too much up.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:49:00 - [52] Yea only thing moving all level 4s to low sec would do is move all the ganker baby pirates to the systems where the best/most popular level 4 agents are and give them lots of fodder, never mind that people like to use good ships and gear for mission running, oh my would the ganker noobs love that.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:55:00 - [53] I agree 100% with everything you said Ephemeron. Getting podded should HURT. Even if you don't have implants. All high end missions should be moved to low sec. Period. I agree with removing insurance from all ships except t1 frigs and cruisers. Insurance simply decreases the value that players place on ships. There isn't so much 'cool factor' in the big ships these days or sense of loss if you lose a BS or BC. We need more low sec systems, and we need more systems between the major trade hubs to be low sec systems. IMO there needs to be really huge shortcuts between the major trade hubs, shaving off 50% or more of the jumps required, but forcing the players to go through low security systems to do it. It would provide a nice option for the players who want to try and risk it for the increased time savings. And NPC belt spawns should be quite difficult, so that every tong, chang and ling can't sit out there and rat with complete ease. Because I said so...
jellybird Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Ephemeron 4. 0.0 belt spawn NPC strengths should be restored to Castor levels. In particular, there need to be much more warp scrambling and webbing NPCs. Currently, your average 0.0 isk farmer character with noobish skills uses a Raven with 2 warp core stabs and t1 cloak. Such a Raven setup has no problem if killing every possible 0.0 belt spawn. This is unacceptably easy. There should be at least some 0.0 belt spawns that are too hard for such poorly setup, poorly skilled Ravens. The fact that chinese macro miners started prefering 0.0 belt spawn farming to mining just shows how wrong things are going in EVE. I take it u been to delve
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:16:00 - [55] Edited by: Nullity on 07/06/2007 11:15:15 Originally by: Yurii Chan Originally by: Nero Scuro Fat chance. Face it, CCP used the hardcore gamers to make their niche game popular, now they're selling out to appeal to the easy-to-please grindfest crowd. Grindfests are easy to make and easy to keep the players happy with - just occasional release another ship, change the colour of it and for it's stats just hold the 9 key down longer than you did last time. Who needs principles and a decent niche game when you can sell out for cash? Now if only CCP had realised they have absolutely no chance of competing with the likes of Blizzard and co. so CCP is bad for trying to make a buck? No, but it's disheartening to see the one game that was made for "hardcore" players inch more and more closely towards WOWdom. Not that I'm saying EVE will ever be completely like WOW, but I wouldn't be surprised if EVE gets even more "mainstream" (buzzword for carebear-easy mode) in the next few years. All the OP, myself, and many others want is one "hardcore" MMORPG. EVE is it, but how long can we count on that?
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:16:00 - [56] Edited by: Anehra on 07/06/2007 11:15:39 Originally by: murder one Getting podded should HURT. Even if you don't have implants. As I posted earlier, that's stupid. Yes, especially for the pvper/pirate. You want them to take more risks to get more ganks. If the clone cost more carebears will take less risks, and pirates will make bigger bubbles - the effect will be less kills and more big gangs, worse pvp. We want people to take risks, that's the point, that'll make EVE more hardcore. Currently there's too much safety - not too small isk sinks. Also, more money on players = more expensive ships = less annoyance from them when losing the ship = alot more ships to blow up, and loot to get looted. ;) Increasing costs only is just one-dimensional thinking and plain - stupid.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:19:00 - [57] Edited by: James Duar on 07/06/2007 11:19:22 You what I hate most about these "anti-carebear" ideas? They suck. They would make losing ships in PvP suck-ass. EVE would be boring as hell because it wouldn't be worth doing anything. EDIT: No it would not be hardcore. It would be boring because carebearing ISK to buy **** is boring.
24h01	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:20:00 - [58] EVE is no more hardcore
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:26:00 - [59] - Move lvl 4 missions out of highsec: YES! - Remove all forms of insurance on cap ships (also basic!): YES - Increase NPC spawn difficulty & increase loot: YES Dont touch clone cost..please..=P
Adariana	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:26:00 - [60] Originally by: Ephemeron I understand that the majority of players prefer ... But what about small minority of players who want a serious hardcore game? Why should any dev's cater to individual player whims? CCP, as with most game devs, have specific ideas about how they want their game to be. To quote any number of 0.0/lowsec/pirate types: Don't like it? Leave. The vast majority of us will not miss you in the least. Your only real option if you don't like the way eve is going is to quit and build your own MMOG according to your own ideas. Then, after a year or 4 we can compare subscription rates and see if you have a clue. In the mean time, STFU and play or leave. Really is that simple.

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