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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:37:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 18:46:15
 Quote:
You forget that the Tempest does more effective DPS than the Megathron. A lot more. A whole lot more. Droves more.
If you're comparing Barrage to Null, sure. If you're comparing faction ammo, it's close but probably. If you're comparing Hail and Void, absolutely not.
Quote:
The tempest can kill the Megathron RIGHT NOW due to how autocannons work and the change makes the tempest BETTER.
In the hands of equally skilled pilots, a neut mega will absolutely annihilate an 800 repeating pest right now. The changes proposed here would narrow the gap considerably, but the Megathron would still pip it to the post.
Quote:
you only need to drop one 1600rt, but either way, the thron is just totaly outclassed.
I understand you can drop one plate and still fit your guns, but with 2x gyro and 1x 1600 you don't have enough slots left for the 3x hard + dc you proposed. If you mean 2x eanm and dc, then the gap narrows - 75k effective on the Tempest compared to 80k effective on the Megathron. However the Megathron could pull the same trick: Remove the RCU and a 1600, replace with an eanm and an overdrive and move the powergrid mod into the rigs (remember your Tempest has no calibration left). Suddenly the Tempest's advantage - it's ability to sit out in it's falloff whilst still dealing damage - is mooted.
What's more likely of course is that another magstab or a tracking enhancer would be fitted in that low. Whichever way, the Megathron is coming out on top. There's even enough calibration left after 1x +1 turret rig & 1x ACR to fit a trimark...
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.09.23 18:40:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 18:41:35
Quote:
would way overpower already way overpowered ships and it would be the new "nos" module, a most have rig.
I must say, more fool you if you don't already rig out every ship you fly: They already are essential mods in every single circumstance. I also sincerely doubt that they would be any more valuable than (for example) CCC rigs currently are, as what use is an extra gun if you can't keep it running?
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:50:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/09/2007 18:51:58
Look this is what your changes will do
Here is what this looks like in pure dps.
Here is what this looks like under real world conditions.
Here is what it looks like right now under real world conditions[800s+ Heavy Missiles(yes, not even Cruise, Siege, or HAMs)]
Its frankly ridiculous what you want to do.
8 Turrets used for the Hyrbid in all instances[comparing the Hyperion, megathron does not fare as well]. Tank is standard unmodified armor tank. First graph not using the accurate DPS figures for hit chance which skews the graph in favor of the Hybrids[being farther into falloff]. No falloff rigs were used to compare.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:56:00 -
[94]
Quote:
I understand you can drop one plate and still fit your guns, but with 2x gyro and 1x 1600 you don't have enough slots left for the 3x hard + dc you proposed. If you mean 2x eanm and dc, then the gap narrows - 75k effective on the Tempest compared to 80k effective on the Megathron. However the Megathron could pull the same trick: Remove the RCU and a 1600, replace with an eanm and an overdrive and move the powergrid mod into the rigs (remember your Tempest has no calibration left). Suddenly the Tempest's advantage - it's ability to sit out in it's falloff whilst still dealing damage - is mooted.
Having run against the profiles for the damage types dealt, the Tempest is looking at 72,000 effective hitpoints and a top speed of 1285m/s compared to that Megathron with 79,000 hitpoints and 1365m/s with the Megathron able to significantly out damage you once it gets in close. Without the cap injector, the Tempest could only run for 1:40 (not enough to kill the mega) whereas the Mega could keep it's speed up to get within range and toast you.
All it takes is a smart Megathron pilot. Smart and Gallente may not obviously sit well together, but it does happen... 
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 19:04:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 19:07:02
Quote:
Its frankly ridiculous what you want to do.
8 Turrets used for the Hyrbid in all instances[comparing the Hyperion, megathron does not fare as well]. Tank is standard unmodified armor tank. First graph not using the accurate DPS figures for hit chance which skews the graph in favor of the Hybrids[being farther into falloff]. No falloff rigs were used to compare.
Of course the Hyperion is going to be outclassed by an eight gun Tempest, as it cannot benefit from the supplemental turret rigs. You'd need to use Hybrid rigs to the tune of 300 calibration (at least: you're suggesting the Tempest should run two T1 rigs and so this would be 400 calibration) to get accurate figures when using that ship. If those are falloff rigs then that curve is far less dramatically in favour of the Minmatar.
You also suspiciously switched from comparing the Megathron and Tempest to comparing it with the Hyperion instead. Switch back to the Megathron, use up the same calibration as your eight gun Tempest would and come back to the party. If you're right and I'm wrong, so be it - I'm more than man enough to back down from the idea should it be proven to completely imbalance things. As it stands, the evidence given against the proposition simply does not demonstrate this.
The Megathron has to be used as the comparable ship, as like the Tempest it gets the twin bonus to it's primary weapon system.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.23 19:57:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/09/2007 19:56:58
:Psyduck:
The megathron with a hybrid rig has the same number of turrets and damage bonuses as the Hyperion without.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 20:43:00 -
[97]
Quote:
The megathron with a hybrid rig has the same number of turrets and damage bonuses as the Hyperion without.
It has the same number of damage bonuses, but it also gets a tracking bonus. Unlike the Hyperion, it can benefit from using the supplemental turret rig which is the WHOLE POINT of this thread! Why compare a ship that would not be affected by these rigs to one that would?
Neutron Mega /w 2x T1 Ancillary Current Router, 1x T1 Supplemental turret rig:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon
1x Stasis Web
1x Warp Disruptor
1x Microwarpdrive
1x Cap Injector
1x Damage Control
1x EANM
2x 1600mm RT
1x Tracking Enhancer
2x Magstab
This would require a CPU implant to fit, but that's almost a given for any Megathron pilot as it is. With CN Antimatter you're hitting for 952 DPS @ 5.2 + 13KM. With Void it's 968 DPS @ 7.8 + 6.8KM and Null is 760 DPS @ 13 + 16KM. These of course are only gun damage - you'll get an extra 317 DPS from your Ogre II's compared to the maximum drone damage from the Tempest of 210 - and only if the Megathron is using Null where the Tempest is using faction ammo will the Tempest have better tracking than the Megathron.
If you wish to demonstrate to me why the Tempest is still better off than the Megathron in this scenario, then please do so.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 23:07:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 23:07:54
Eight Gun Hyp vs Eight Gun Pest:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon II /w CN Antimatter
1x Sensor Booster II
1x Stasis Webifier II
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II
1x 100MN Microwarpdrive II
1x 1600mm Reinforced Steel II
1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Damage Control II
2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1x Reactor Control Unit II
1x Trimark Armor Pump I
2x Hybrid Ambit Extension I
3x Ogre II
2x Hammerhead II
739/750 CPU
22639.49/22640.63 Power
250/400 Calibration
1204 DPS (Inc drones) at 4.5 /w 16 Falloff & 0.054 Tracking
86,941 Effective HP against EMP
1173m/s
8x 800mm Repeating Artillery /w RF EMP
1x Sensor Booster II
1x Stasis Webifier II
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II
1x 100MN Microwarpdrive II
1x 1600mm Reinforced Steel II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1x Damage Control II
2x Gyrostabilizer II
2x Supplemental Turret Housing 1
2x Ogre II
2x Hammerhead II
1x Hobgoblin II
635.656/687.5 CPU
19297.6/19375 Power
400/400 Calibration
1106 DPS (Inc drones) at 3 /w 20 Falloff & 0.054 Tracking
72,012 Effective HP against Antimatter
1278m/s
If it wasn't evident before, this is why your example of the Hyperion is dishonest. The Megathron gets a tracking bonus, whereas a plated Hyperion is wasting it's second (rep amount) bonus. It's not a suitable comparison.
That said, the Hyperion doesn't do a bad job: The Megathron however does it a whole lot better.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.24 02:55:00 -
[99]
stop using RF EMP you disingenious twit, start figuring out the actual dps these ships do against armor
This is why its unbalanced.
Quote:
Look this is what your changes will do
Here is what this looks like in pure dps.
Here is what this looks like under real world conditions.
Here is what it looks like right now under real world conditions[800s+ Heavy Missiles(yes, not even Cruise, Siege, or HAMs)]
Its frankly ridiculous what you want to do.
8 Turrets used for the Hyrbid in all instances[comparing the Hyperion, megathron does not fare as well]. Tank is standard unmodified armor tank. First graph not using the accurate DPS figures for hit chance which skews the graph in favor of the Hybrids[being farther into falloff]. No falloff rigs were used to compare.
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B Glorious
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:43:00 -
[100]
I'm gonna have to go with the "this would be overpowered" group with this one, especially if the tech 2 one gives +2 turret slots and neither consume all of a ship's available calibration. |
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Jacque DeCoure
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:20:00 -
[101]
I like the idea of using Rigs to add an extra hardpoint, I do NOT like the idea of T2 versions giving 2.
Why not something like: T1 versions are 200 calibration and give one slot, T2 versions are 150 calibration and give one slot?
Anyways, I like the concept - but am not prepared to endorse the idea fully because the real Eve implementation may lead to some serious balance issues - which may require ships to be modified - which could upset some people a LOT.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:43:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 24/09/2007 04:43:10
Originally by: Goumindong
stop using RF EMP you disingenious twit, start figuring out the actual dps these ships do against armor
It took me a long whilst to stop laughing at this. Really.
I'm comparing both ships when fitted with faction ammo (if you don't like RF EMP, suggest another. You'd probably prefer one with a higher percentage of explosive damage, but of course this would have a lower damage potential...), both ships with close range T2 and also with long range T2. To compare in any other way would be disingenuous.
You are still avoiding comparing the Tempest to the Megathron, and I wonder why that is. Could it perhaps be that they are the two comparable ships, and that the Megathron with eight turrets could indeed outdo to an eight gun Tempest?
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.09.24 04:47:00 -
[103]
Quote:
I'm gonna have to go with the "this would be overpowered" group with this one, especially if the tech 2 one gives +2 turret slots and neither consume all of a ship's available calibration.
This is certainly a point on which I am completely flexible. I chose these calibration figures so as to allow the use of two tier one rigs for +2 turrets in the same way that one can use two hybrid/projectile/weapon/missile damage/rof rigs mainly because the addition of these when combined with two weapon upgrades is akin to adding an extra turret or two.
I'm certainly not adverse to setting the tech one rig's calibration at 250-300 and the tech two at 350-400 so as to limit their use. The figures I quoted were merely there for the purposes of discussion, and so as to receive feedback such as this.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.09.24 04:56:00 -
[104]
Quote:
I like the idea of using Rigs to add an extra hardpoint, I do NOT like the idea of T2 versions giving 2.
Why not something like: T1 versions are 200 calibration and give one slot, T2 versions are 150 calibration and give one slot?
This would buck the trend for rigs (where the tech two equivalent always gives a better return but at a higher calibration cost), but I'm certainly not adverse to it. The main reason I suggested a +2 rig was that many ships would greatly benefit from having an addition two turrets, and to use the much discussed example of the Megathron vs Tempest, not having a +2 rig would swing the balance heavily in favour of the Megathron.
In the example you give, +2 turrets would of course still be possible. With tech one rigs, it would max out your calibration and tech two would leave 100 spare, which wouldn't effectively change how they could be used as per the original suggestion.
Quote:
Anyways, I like the concept - but am not prepared to endorse the idea fully because the real Eve implementation may lead to some serious balance issues - which may require ships to be modified - which could upset some people a LOT.
I would be rather ****ed off myself if CCP decide to bring something like this in and then went around changing all the ships so to restrict the efficacy of such rigs. That said, any time that there's something new or something changes there's always someone who wants to cry about it.
"You can please some of the people all of the time or you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
You are still avoiding comparing the Tempest to the Megathron, and I wonder why that is. Could it perhaps be that they are the two comparable ships, and that the Megathron with eight turrets could indeed outdo to an eight gun Tempest?
No it cant you bloody moron, the Megathron does the same DPS as the hyperion with 8 turrets, do you see the fing graph, the Tempest outdamages the 8 turret Megathron at ALL RANGES. The Tempest with Barrage nearly outdamages the Megathron with Void at its optimal! The tempest at any amount of falloff just absolutly trounces the megathron, the Tempest does so much more DPS it could fly without drones and STILL do more DPS than the Mega.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:17:00 -
[106]
Quote:
the Megathron does the same DPS as the hyperion with 8 turrets
The Megathron does more effective damage than the Hyperion due to it's tracking bonus. A smart Megathron pilot who is aware that he will never close the gap on the Tempest would then endeavour to increase his transversal, as with any ammo type except Void his tracking is vastly superior to that of the Tempest - and if your Tempest is sitting out in it's falloff, the Megathron's hardly going to try and hit you with Void. If he switches to Null and raises his transversal, he'll be doing more effective damage to you than you can do to him.
Quote:
the Tempest outdamages the 8 turret Megathron at ALL RANGES. The Tempest with Barrage nearly outdamages the Megathron with Void at its optimal!
The graph you linked was for the Hyperion. Tracking makes no difference to effective DPS, right?
Quote:
The tempest at any amount of falloff just absolutly trounces the megathron, the Tempest does so much more DPS it could fly without drones and STILL do more DPS than the Mega.
Falloff rigs. The Megathron +1 can fit some, the Tempest +2 can't, and as such the gap in effective damage can be narrowed in this way. The Megathron also has an extra low slot, so whilst fitting the same tank can add a Tracking Enhancer, increasing it's optimal and narrowing that gap further. With Null, a falloff rig and a Tracking Enhancer, the Megathron is hitting 13KM optimal with an 18KM falloff. The tempest can of course then move further out using Barrage, but doing so would mean moving outside of scram range...
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:43:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/09/2007 05:43:34
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
The Megathron does more effective damage than the Hyperion due to it's tracking bonus. A smart Megathron pilot who is aware that he will never close the gap on the Tempest would then endeavour to increase his transversal, as with any ammo type except Void his tracking is vastly superior to that of the Tempest - and if your Tempest is sitting out in it's falloff, the Megathron's hardly going to try and hit you with Void. If he switches to Null and raises his transversal, he'll be doing more effective damage to you than you can do to him.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
AH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Quote:
The graph you linked was for the Hyperion. Tracking makes no difference to effective DPS, right?
Yes and no, against a battleship with a 90% web, its not going to make a difference. The Hyperion also can fit two webs. Its a much better blaster boat than the Megathron.
Quote:
Falloff rigs. The Megathron +1 can fit some, the Tempest +2 can't, and as such the gap in effective damage can be narrowed in this way. The Megathron also has an extra low slot, so whilst fitting the same tank can add a Tracking Enhancer, increasing it's optimal and narrowing that gap further. With Null, a falloff rig and a Tracking Enhancer, the Megathron is hitting 13KM optimal with an 18KM falloff. The tempest can of course then move further out using Barrage, but doing so would mean moving outside of scram range...
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.24 17:52:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 24/09/2007 17:54:29
Quote:
Yes and no, against a battleship with a 90% web, its not going to make a difference. The Hyperion also can fit two webs. Its a much better blaster boat than the Megathron.
No **** Sherlock, in the scenario where two battleships are both within range of a 90% web, a Megathron will be doing more damage than the Tempest would. If we're talking faction webs, then it's a different story.
As for the Hyperion being a better blaster boat than the Megathron, again you're just not seeing objetively. Right now of course this is true, because the Hyperion has 8 to the Megathron's 7 turrets. Give the Megathron an extra turret, and it becomes a far better blaster boat than the Hyperion is, as long as we're talking plated damage setups.
The short of it is you have not yet adequately shown your point, as you keep moving the goalpost - or just evading the issue entirely - whenever it suits you.
Quote:
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
AH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
It's nice to see you've given up on your point, but of course it's rather obtuse of you to have use the Tempest as an example against the Hyperion in the first place. Next you'll be telling me we should compare the Megathron to the Maelstrom...
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.10.23 21:01:00 -
[109]
Quote:
We currently have rigs to increase the power grid of a ship, and I can only surmise there's a very good reason we don't have rigs to increase a ship's CPU allotment... although it eludes me at present. My proposition however is the addition of a rig that allows you to alter the hi-slot allotment on a given ship. For example:
Supplemental Turret Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Turret Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 turret slots
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 launcher slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 launcher slots
Drawback: -10%
My reasoning is simple: When I first heard about rigs, I was rather excited - I assumed (incorrectly) that it would allow us much greater flexibility in fitting ships, but instead it's simply given us "OMGWTFBBQPWN" damage setups, unbreakable tanks and oodles of cap. The above would allow us to choose what we want to do with a specific ship's hull, rather than being forced into the same ships time and time again. We could start choosing the ships we like, and not just the bonuses we like.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Zen Guerrilla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.10.25 10:42:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote:
Tempest with 8 turret hardpoints? Uhm..
Yes - not to mention a Scorpion, Raven and Typhoon with 6 turrets, and a Megathron and Armageddon with 8. The balance is unaffected simply because all ships are equally capable of using such rigs, so no single race/ship is penalised through their addition.
Just because there's a chance for every ship to use such things, doesn't balance the whole concept. There's way more to it than just saying every ship benefits from it. With huge changes like these there would be more to take into account to keep balance.
Though i really like the general idea. How about a change to the idea that you could "swap" hardpoints with rigs? Like there was rigs where you could trade a lowslot for a midslot or highslot and vice versa. You get the concept.
You could sacrifice a turret for better tanking, a midslot for more damage or whatever you like. I'd like that.
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Not an alt. And proud of it.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.11.30 07:59:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Zen Guerrilla
Just because there's a chance for every ship to use such things, doesn't balance the whole concept. There's way more to it than just saying every ship benefits from it. With huge changes like these there would be more to take into account to keep balance.
Of course, you're absolutely right. Again though I'll point out that the +2 Turret rig I proposed would be T2, and we all know how prohibitively expensive they are. What would need to be focused on as far as balance is concerned would be a 7 turret Tempest against an 8 turret Megathron, for example.
Quote:
Though i really like the general idea. How about a change to the idea that you could "swap" hardpoints with rigs? Like there was rigs where you could trade a lowslot for a midslot or highslot and vice versa. You get the concept. You could sacrifice a turret for better tanking, a midslot for more damage or whatever you like. I'd like that.
This idea was proposed early on in the thread, and once I'm finished responding here I'll go back and link the details of it. I do believe there would be more serious balance issues in "swapping" slots, as I feel it is here and with the ship's bonuses that most balancing takes place.
However, anything that allows us to make our ships more unique is a good thing in my eyes. As the original post says, I rather hoped that rigs would be a device to enable us greater freedom in the layout of our ships, rather than simply giving us what frankly is just an extra module slot with (generally) inferior statistics to high/mid/low slot items.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.11.30 08:10:00 -
[112]
As promised:
Quote:
Linear Power Transformer I
This ship modification is designed to increase the low slot allotment at the expense of high slots.
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 Low slot
Drawback: -1 High Slot
Linear Power Transformer II
This ship modification is designed to increase the low slot allotment at the expense of high slots.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 Low slots
Drawback: -2 High Slots
Switched Mode Power Regulator I
This ship modification is designed to increase the mid slot allotment at the expense of high slots.
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 Mid slot
Drawback: -1 High Slot
Switched Mode Power Regulator II
This ship modification is designed to increase the mid slot allotment at the expense of high slots.
Calibration: 300
Bonus: +2 Mid slots
Drawback: -2 High slots
Of course, I did neglect to look at mid to low slot conversion - with that in mind, here's my own take on that particular bag of worms:
Positive Polarity Flux Compression Generator I
This ship modification is designed to increase the mid slot allotment at the expense of low slots.
Calibration: 200
Bonus: +1 Mid slots
Drawback: -1 Low slots
Positive Polarity Flux Compression Generator II
This ship modification is designed to increase the mid slot allotment at the expense of low slots.
Calibration: 300
Bonus: +2 Mid slots
Drawback: -2 Low slots
Negative Polarity Flux Compression Generator I
This ship modification is designed to increase the low slot allotment at the expense of mid slots.
Calibration: 200
Bonus: +1 Low slots
Drawback: -1 Mid slots
Negative Polarity Flux Compression Generator II
This ship modification is designed to increase the low slot allotment at the expense of mid slots.
Calibration: 200
Bonus: +2 Low slots
Drawback: -2 Mid slots
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Divine Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.04 07:17:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 03/09/2007 05:12:37
It's probably been suggested before, but the search didn't return anything useful...
Fittings rigs: We currently have rigs to increase the power grid of a ship, and I can only surmise there's a very good reason we don't have rigs to increase a ship's CPU allotment... although it eludes me at present. My proposition however is the addition of a rig that allows you to alter the hi-slot allotment on a given ship. For example:
Supplemental Turret Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Turret Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 turret slots
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 launcher slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 launcher slots
Drawback: -10%
My reasoning is simple: When I first heard about rigs, I was rather excited - I assumed (incorrectly) that it would allow us much greater flexibility in fitting ships, but instead it's simply given us "OMGWTFBBQPWN" damage setups, unbreakable tanks and oodles of cap. The above would allow us to choose what we want to do with a specific ship's hull, rather than being forced into the same ships time and time again. We could start choosing the ships we like, and not just the bonuses we like.
For those of you who aren't as strange as I and who don't want to fly a fully missile fitted Vengeance, what about squeezing that extra turret onto a Megathron? Giving the Cerberus a full rack of HAMs? Turning the Vagabond into a missile boat from hell?
How about a proper Battle Badger, with a pair of Assault Missile launchers? 
(My figures may not be perfect - please only criticise them if you have another suggestion. Otherwise, flame at will)
Hardpoint Rigs |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.01.31 12:36:00 -
[114]
Wouldn't a rig taking a missile slot and giving a turret slot at the expense of turret powergrid and a slot taking a turret slot and giving a missile slot at the expense of CPU would be good?
Missile to turret hardpoint converter I
This ship modification is designed to replace a ship's missile hardpoint with a turret hardpoint at the expense of powergrid.
Calibration Cost: 250
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Malus : -1 missile slot
Drawback: -10%
Turret to missile hardpoint converter I
This ship modification is designed to replace a ship's turret hardpoint with a missile hardpoint at the expense of CPU.
Calibration Cost: 250
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Malus : -1 missile slot
Drawback: -10%
Why replacing and not just adding a hardpoint? Just look at a deimos or a zealot, it would just be too big, you would fit one class smaller turrets and have one more turret, it's just an enormous potential.
Now look at ships that could fit both type, this is converting an unbonused slot to a bonused slot at the expense of the thing you need most to fit it (same philosophy as weapon rigs).
So, what we get at the end?
No boost to drake, as mentionned above it could be bad...
Boost in prophecy firepower, but it was already a tight fit in mine, it hard to make good use of the turret.
Ferox boost, just choose, missile or turret boat fits your needs? it has 5/5 and 7 hi. Yest iy could be 7 fairly small turrets...
Nothing for the already high power harbinger.
No change in gallente BCs.
But a general boost in minmatar which could make minmatar FOTM with theyr double bonus and more turrets to hurricane, tempest, rupture and all BS!
It does not fix the issue with too high raven firepower boost that existed with the 'just adding one turret' rigs proposed before.
I didn't list all affected ships, but it could be an issue. Maybe 250 calibration can forbid more than one of this modification?
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.02.02 06:45:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Wouldn't a rig taking a missile slot and giving a turret slot at the expense of turret powergrid and a slot taking a turret slot and giving a missile slot at the expense of CPU would be good?
Yes, it would. My own suggestion was to increase power grid and cpu consumption (whichever is most restrictive per weapon type and ship that receives bonuses to it, perhaps even both) modified by the appropriate rigging skill.
Quote:
Missile to turret hardpoint converter I
This ship modification is designed to replace a ship's missile hardpoint with a turret hardpoint at the expense of powergrid.
Calibration Cost: 250
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Malus : -1 missile slot
Drawback: -10%
Turret to missile hardpoint converter I
This ship modification is designed to replace a ship's turret hardpoint with a missile hardpoint at the expense of CPU.
Calibration Cost: 250
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Malus : -1 missile slot
Drawback: -10%
This is very similar to my own suggestion with the exception that it designates specific resources to be restricted, has a slightly increased calibration cost and instead of increasing the consumption of the modules to be fitted, it reduces the ship's own output. I think given that current rigs all modify the fittings and not the ships that it may be difficult to implement, but I would support such an idea.
I would like to see +2 turret or missile rigs myself, but I do understand why people feel this might be a tad imbalanced. I disagree, but that's my perogative
Quote:
Why replacing and not just adding a hardpoint?
Again, this is based on my assumptions of how eve is designed. I assume that ship information is stored in tabular format, and that the ship tables contain information such as the number of missile or turret slots along with resistances, base armor/shield/hull and so on.
I assume that modifying the number of hardpoints would be more time consuming than simply "swapping" them, and as such avoided this issue. It could also create lots of other balance issues, but again the idea is intruiging.
Now look at ships that could fit both type, this is converting an unbonused slot to a bonused slot at the expense of the thing you need most to fit it (same philosophy as weapon rigs).
So, what we get at the end?
Quote:
No boost to drake
Whilst the Drake would struggle, it could fit an extra launcher on using these rigs and as such could benefit.
Quote:
But a general boost in minmatar which could make minmatar FOTM with theyr double bonus and more turrets to hurricane, tempest, rupture and all BS!
Yes, minmatar are the difficult one with their split setups, but bear in mind that their battleships have some split bonuses too. Ships like the Hurricane shouldn't benefit that much, especially if as you and others suggested only +1 rigs are introduced.
The balance is down to CCP, but I'm glad that this topic is receiving some feedback.
Hardpoint Rigs |
DrDooma
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Posted - 2008.02.02 10:02:00 -
[116]
Without doing 2 much calculations, the only problem I see is with some BCs and BSs size ships.
I think you on the right track but i love what Galdaron xax suggested as long as it does not apply to T2 ships.
Originally by: Galdaron xax
how about interchanging slots ?? a low slot for a med slot
a high slot for a med slot or a low slot. and so on.I know most will take high slots
or low slots depending the ship.A hauler with 7 low slots anybody ??
just an idea but this would also mean ppl will loose the idea of combat abilieties of ships and are no longer able to predict battle actions.It would make a ship scanner very valuable at that point :)
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2008.02.02 20:33:00 -
[117]
Quote:
how about interchanging slots ?? a low slot for a med slot
a high slot for a med slot or a low slot. and so on.I know most will take high slots
or low slots depending the ship.A hauler with 7 low slots anybody ??
This is an idea I have always felt should be part of the ship design stage: It would be an awful lot of work, but let's say when you put a Bestower blueprint into the manufacturing slot, a dialog appears that allows you to select where you would like those slots to go within preset parameters. The Bestower currently has ten slots, and I feel the best implementation of the idea quoted above would be to allow ship builders to designate where those slots go, allowing for a minimum of one slot in each rack and a maximum of eight.
Such ships would require sweeping changes to the market system (or perhaps could only be sold on contracts), and would require lots more database real estate - however, given that there are still only a specific number of combinations possible on each ship based on the overall number of slots they are allowed, it's certainly doable.
I do however think that rigging isn't really the way to go for such an idea.
Hardpoint Rigs |
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