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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.09.05 18:30:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 05/09/2007 17:24:07
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 05/09/2007 17:19:42
It's been a long time since I ran any missions (or for that matter even flew a raven), so it might be way off the mark. So, moving swiftly on to the +2 launcher rigged Raven. The tank would not change, but the lows would to make it all work:
Quote:
Have you considered these rigs on dreadnaughts or carriers? Or even the rorqual =P
Should've kept quiet on that one, eh? 
Personally, I'd quite like to have a Dread that could outdamage a battleship without siege mode. I think it would make a useful and interesting addition to fleet warfare. That said, there are already rigs that have no effect on capital ships: These rigs could easily be made one of them.
Yeah I think you're slightly off with the setup for the Raven as I use a full t2 setup practically (no rigs though) and don't use any co-processor's to fit it. I can't exactly go check what it is because I'm -9.4 and it's in a 1.0 system. Not in the mood for running around in a pod in high sec =P
As far as the dreads go do you mean more damage over time (dot) then a BS or alpha? I thought dread's do a nice amount of damage even without being in siege mode (at least raw damage). But putting another launcher/turret on a dread...or even putting them on carriers (I can picture some wacky setups) would be something definitely worth looking into =P
---
Put in space whales!
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.05 19:01:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 05/09/2007 19:02:00
Moros: 768 DPS (4775 AS) + 1109 drone damage
Moros +1 turret: 1024 DPS (6368 AS) + 1109 drone damage
That's it fitted with nothing but MFS in the lows. With the Moros, it's really all about the drones until you put it in siege mode. Having an extra turret adds a really nice boost, as the dreads have so few to begin with.
Megathron: 887 DPS (3677 AS) + 317 drone damage
Megathron +1 turret: 1016 DPS (4200 AS) + 317 drone damage
Those figures would be even higher with T2 ammo in the Megathron.
As for the T2 fitted Raven, I think if you use Cruise rather than Torp it's entirely possible to fit them entirely with T2 using no fitting mods.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.09.05 19:58:00 -
[63]
I support this because when I get a naglfar I'd like to have 4 artillery instead of 2 and 2 torps =P
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Put in space whales!
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king jks
Exanimo Inc
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.05 21:17:00 -
[64]
The thing I'd say is make it so only 1 fits on a ship. Also the T2 rigs shouldn't give more slots, but maybe have less of a drawback. Only thing is this would make 8 blaster astartes and megas possible >_>
...but will it blend? |
king jks
Exanimo Inc
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.05 21:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 05/09/2007 19:02:00
Moros: 768 DPS (4775 AS) + 1109 drone damage
Moros +1 turret: 1024 DPS (6368 AS) + 1109 drone damage
That's it fitted with nothing but MFS in the lows. With the Moros, it's really all about the drones until you put it in siege mode. Having an extra turret adds a really nice boost, as the dreads have so few to begin with.
Megathron: 887 DPS (3677 AS) + 317 drone damage
Megathron +1 turret: 1016 DPS (4200 AS) + 317 drone damage
Those figures would be even higher with T2 ammo in the Megathron.
As for the T2 fitted Raven, I think if you use Cruise rather than Torp it's entirely possible to fit them entirely with T2 using no fitting mods.
Just would like to point out that the dps with 4 turrets will be much lower than the dps with 3 turrets since you won't be in siege.
...but will it blend? |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.05 21:52:00 -
[66]
Quote:
The thing I'd say is make it so only 1 fits on a ship. Also the T2 rigs shouldn't give more slots, but maybe have less of a drawback. Only thing is this would make 8 blaster astartes and megas possible >_>
The problem with not having a +2 rig but having a +1 rig is that it would specifically benefit Gallente & Amarr over the Caldari and Minmatar, in that they generally only have one "utility" slot on the vast majority of their ships. The impetus behind this was to provide a solution for the unpopular split-setup ships that predominate amongst the Caldari and Minmatar and to allow greater variety in fittings: For example, abandoning the ship's bonus and fitting missiles to a Vagabond to sidestep the tracking issues of travelling at 6km/s+ or fitting a full rack of guns on an Eagle.
As for fitting one only, this is something that we have touched upon. Were the calibration for the +1 rig set at 250 this would be the case, meaning that anyone who wanted +2 turrets would have no choice but to splash out on the T2 rig. As it stands (T1 calibration 200, T2 calibration 300), you would be making your own life difficult by fitting two of the tech one rigs: you would be using up all your calibration (whereas with a T2 rig you could also fit some resistance rigs or something alongside your turret rig) and you would have the penalty to fitting requirements applied twice - a stacking penalty, if you will.
Quote:
Just would like to point out that the dps with 4 turrets will be much lower than the dps with 3 turrets since you won't be in siege.
But Siege does nasty things to you. If someone were to opt for an extra turret on a Dreadnought, it would be for doing things other than shooting at starbases, stations and other capitals - like scaring the hell out of battleship pilots. Right now, with the exception of the Moros and it's drones, most well fitted & rigged battleships can tank an unsieged dreadnought, and can laugh when a sieged dreadnought tries to actually hit them.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.09.05 22:28:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
With the Tempest sporting 687.5 CPU and 19375 power like the Megathron with the best skills, fitting eight of these on would rack up to a total power consumption of 16632 and a CPU consumption of 258.72 - leaving 428.78 CPU and 2743 power. Like the Megathron, this would require an Ancillary Current Router I to make a decent setup, which in this case is going to max out your calibration.
No, it would not, just like a good megathron does not require an ACR
8x800 repeaters[not that you cant downsize for a measly 4% DPS reduction.
Mwd, web, web, scram, sensor booster
1600,1600, eanm, dc, dmg, dmg
That is 989 GUN dps with hail, has 2 free mids for ewar, and plenty of powergrid left
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Salpad
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Posted - 2007.09.06 08:29:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 12/06/2007 04:48:40I haven't looked through every single ship yet, but random testing shows that ships have a calibration capacity of 400. I have set them at 200 and 300 for tech one and two respectively, meaning that the best possible configuration would be the addition of two turret/launcher slots using the tech two rig. In the example of the Apocalypse that you gave, this would mean a total of 4 maximum launcher slots, with 100 calibration left.
It is not clear to me whether your proposal is that these rigs should give more slots, or whether they should convert hardpoints into other hardpoint types, so that for instance an "extra launcher" rig would change a Merlin from having 2 launcher slots and 2 turret slots, and to have 3 launcher slots and 1 turret slot.
The later sounds balanced, but the former, giving extra slots, probably isn't.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.06 08:43:00 -
[69]
Quote:
It is not clear to me whether your proposal is that these rigs should give more slots, or whether they should convert hardpoints into other hardpoint types, so that for instance an "extra launcher" rig would change a Merlin from having 2 launcher slots and 2 turret slots, and to have 3 launcher slots and 1 turret slot.
The later sounds balanced, but the former, giving extra slots, probably isn't.
The proposal is for a rig that would simply add extra hardpoints for missile. In the example of the Merlin, a +1 launcher rig would give you 3 launcher slots and 2 turret slots.
I drew up numbers also on the proposal earlier in this thread for a rig that removes missile or turret slots in favour of the other (+1 missile -1 turret or vice versa), but this would not change the potential damage output of any ship at all and as such would have no effect on balance: Eight gun Tempests would still be possible. It would just be the same thing with a different flavour.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.06 09:03:00 -
[70]
Quote:
8x800 repeaters[not that you cant downsize for a measly 4% DPS reduction.
Mwd, web, web, scram, sensor booster
1600,1600, eanm, dc, dmg, dmg
This you mean?
Tempest:
1x +2 Turret rig
(something for 100 calibration, resists maybe?)
2x Gyro II (60 CPU 2 PG)
2x 1600 RT (56 CPU 1000 PG)
1x EANM II (36 CPU 1 PG)
1x DC II (30 CPU 1 PG)
100MN MWD II (75 CPU 1375 PG)
WD II (44 CPU 1 PG)
2x Web II (60 CPU 2 PG)
1x SB II (10 CPU 1 PG)
8x Dual 650mm II (239.4 CPU 12474 PG)
610.4 / 687.5 CPU
14857 / 19375 power
944 DPS & 3104 AS
Which is no worse than a damage fitted Megathron using currently available rigs. Compare it to an almost identical setup currently using 6x 800mm and 2x Siege for damage with 1x Projectile Collision Accelerator I & 1x Projectile Burst Aerator I and the figures come to:
945 DPS / 2714 AS
and the same setup using the aforementioned 650's:
905 DPS / 2462 AS
So with like for like guns, thats a measly 4% increase in DPS with two extra turrets: Again no imbalance. You're beating a dead horse goumindong...
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2007.09.06 13:53:00 -
[71]
/signed
maybe this way the ferox and eagle would get some flight time.
--
Flame on. |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.09.06 14:01:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Goumindong on 06/09/2007 14:04:38
It is just as good as that mega in the short range, without the longer range penalties that the mega has. Yea, its a problem.
ed: And no, the siege fits do not do that much DPS. 6 x 800 [hail] + 2x siege = 850 dps, with more skill requirements and a much much harder time fitting
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:20:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 06/09/2007 15:23:47
Quote:
It is just as good as that mega in the short range, without the longer range penalties that the mega has. Yea, its a problem.
Megathron with Neutrons can hit at 6.8 optimal with 6.3 falloff for a grand total of 19.4KM using Void. Tempest with Hail can hit at 3 optimal with 10 falloff for a grand total of 23KM.
Oh noes! Mega is outranged by 3.6KM! A whole 19% further. It's going to break the "balance" for sure! 
Quote:
And no, the siege fits do not do that much DPS. 6 x 800 [hail] + 2x siege = 850 dps, with more skill requirements and a much much harder time fitting
Your figures are incorrect as you have failed in comprehension. Reread my post above where it clearly states that the damage potential that these rigs would bring would be only marginally (4%) greater than what can currently be achieved with existing rigs. In the case of the tempest, that's two projectile rigs - which if you chose to fit a +2 turret rig you would not have enough calibration left to use.
As for your argument about skill training, that really made me laugh out loud. There are numerous forum posts complaining that the training time for missiles is too short in comparison to that of turrets. All in all, one can have Siege Missile II's fully trained up (without learning skills or implants) in 90 days. Autocannons would take you around 170 days, plus the time needed to train up for Artillery (which unless you're strange, you'd need as well). Coincidentally, this is around 90 days too.
You also failed to take into account that you would need the appropriate rigging skill trained up to 5 in the examples above, else suffer greater penalties to fitting. To do this would take you a further 60 days, assuming that the "Hardpoint Rigging" skill that would be used here is level three. Personally I'd suggest it be level 5.
So give it up, you know you're wrong and are being obstinate. I'm beginning to think you just fear change, as you seem to proliferate as a nay-saying voice in many threads on these forums.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.07 09:45:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 07/09/2007 09:47:08
I missed another corker from Goumindong:
Quote:
No, it [the Tempest with a +2 turret rig) would not, just like a good megathron does not require an ACR
A Megathron can indeed be fit out just fine without using hybrid rigs. Once you factor in the penalty for the rigs I propose (simply multiply the power and cpu requirements by 1.05 to calculate what a pilot with this rigging skill trained to 5 would get, or 1.09 for level 1) and then add the hybrid rig (which would be required for the damage potential listed about), and you'll see that fitting it becomes a real pain in the neck.
Simply put, the existing weapon rigs have shown that it's a fallacy that some ships retain their balance by virtue of their slot configuration. There would be only a marginal increase in damage per second should any ship be allowed to fill it's high slots with it's primary weapon type compared to what is currently attainable with split weapon systems (or simply with a utility slot) and the appropriate damage mods / rigs.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.08 12:07:00 -
[75]
Daily bump to see if there are any more comments on this idea, or any potential problems I might be able to address.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.10 10:14:00 -
[76]
Another bump to see if there's anything else I can cover on this idea that people may see as an issue, or any issues I may not have adequately covered.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.12 12:46:00 -
[77]
No more comments? Oh well, back to the top we go...
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.14 14:13:00 -
[78]
Bak to the top we go. I love the idea of rigs that increase the versatility of ships and allow us to choose the hulls we like rather than simply the bonuses we like, and I hope you do to.
If you don't, I'd like to hear why!
Hardpoint Rigs |
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2007.09.14 14:17:00 -
[79]
If its just affecting turret/missile hardpoints and not adding actual highslots, and you can only have one such mod, this might work.
_________________
[SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler
Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.14 17:58:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 14/09/2007 17:59:34
Quote:
If its just affecting turret/missile hardpoints and not adding actual highslots, and you can only have one such mod, this might work.
You are correct, this idea is only to amend turret/missile hardpoints and not adjust the slot configuration of a ship. For example, a Megathron would never alter from an 8-4-7 layout with these rigs, but could be fitted with 8 turrets in it's highslots at the expense of 200 calibration (half of the ship's allotment) and with an added penalty to the CPU and power requirements for the turrets.
I would not wish to alter the layout of ships, as it is here that they retain their balance. Altering what a ship can sport in the way of armaments however would be fantastic in regards to fitting and skills, and would provide some much needed variety in regards to what ships and setups would be seen on the battlefield.
In it's current incarnation, it would be possible (but ultimately self defeating) to fit two +1 turret/missile rigs on any ship. However, one would receive a stacked fitting penalty for doing so and of course you would have no calibration left for other rigs. There is also the T2 rig (which provides +2 turret/missile hardpoints) coming in at 300 calibration, but this would be prohibitively expensive to my mind.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.17 23:46:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 17/09/2007 23:49:09
Looking for more feedback on this idea. For those of you who don't want to trawl through the whole thread, the idea in question is this:
Quote:
Fittings rigs: We currently have rigs to increase the power grid of a ship, and I can only surmise there's a very good reason we don't have rigs to increase a ship's CPU allotment... although it eludes me at present. My proposition however is the addition of a rig that allows you to alter the hi-slot allotment on a given ship. For example:
Supplemental Turret Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 turret slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Turret Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's turret fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 turret slots
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing I
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 200
Bonus: +1 launcher slot
Drawback: -10%
Supplemental Launcher Housing II
This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's launcher fitting capabilities at the expense of power/CPU use.
Calibration Cost: 300
Bonus: +2 launcher slots
Drawback: -10%
My reasoning is simple: When I first heard about rigs, I was rather excited - I assumed (incorrectly) that it would allow us much greater flexibility in fitting ships, but instead it's simply given us "OMGWTFBBQPWN" damage setups, unbreakable tanks and oodles of cap. The above would allow us to choose what we want to do with a specific ship's hull, rather than being forced into the same ships time and time again. We could start choosing the ships we like, and not just the bonuses we like.
For those of you who aren't as strange as I and who don't want to fly a fully missile fitted Vengeance, what about squeezing that extra turret onto a Megathron? Giving the Cerberus a full rack of HAMs? Turning the Vagabond into a missile boat from hell?
As the post above clarifies, I do not seek to alter the slot configuration of any ship, but merely which weapon types that ship can fit. A notable example would be industrial ships, which would benefit greatly from being able to use missile launchers and defender missiles.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.09.23 16:56:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 17:04:01
There have been comments made concerning this idea in another thread stating that an eight gun Tempest would outdamage and eight gun Megathron. Using similar plated damage setups:
Tempest:
2x Gyro
2x 1600 RT
1x EANM
1x DC
1x 100mn MWD
1x Warp Disruptor
1x Stasis Web
1x Heavy Cap Booster
1x Sensor Booster
8x 800mm Repeating /w Domination EMP
+2 Turret rig
936 Gun DPS, 3232 Alpha at 3 + 20 KM
Megathron:
2x Magstab
1x DC
1x EANM
1x RCU
2x 1600mm RT
1x 100MN MWD
1x Heavy Cap Booster
1x Warp Disruptor
1x Stasis Web
8x Neutron Blaster /w DG Antimatter
+1 Turret rig
992 Gun DPS, 4576 Alpha at 4.5 + 13 KM
Megathron has more armour histpoints, a bigger drone bay AND does more damage. Count drones into the bargain, the Tempest does 1146 whilst the Megathron does 1309.
In short, no imbalance that does not already exist. These rigs would not change the balance of any ships, as it's a fallacy that the balance of a given ship is based upon it's turret/missile slot allotment.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:05:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/09/2007 17:06:13
DG Antimatter +20% DPS over antimatter. 2.9% more DPS than Void 1000 units sold in jita ever
Domination EMP, +20% dps over EMP. 6% LESS dps than Hail.
So you are advantaging the Megathron 2.9% and disadvantaging the Tempest 6%. This accounts for a nearly 10% advantage in DPS to the Megathron that it should not recieve.
AND THEN you add in the other autocannon benefits on top of that.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:15:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 17:25:30
Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 17:23:55
Megathron still wins.
Quote:
DG Antimatter +20% DPS over antimatter. 2.9% more DPS than Void 1000 units sold in jita ever
Domination EMP, +20% dps over EMP. 6% LESS dps than Hail.
So you are advantaging the Megathron 2.9% and disadvantaging the Tempest 6%. This accounts for a nearly 10% advantage in DPS to the Megathron that it should not recieve.
Using Void and Hail, from guns alone Megathron puts out 968 (4448 Alpha) and the Tempest 992DPS (3424 Alpha). Include drones, and the Megathron goes up to 1285 whilst the Tempest hits 1202: It still works, especially given that the drawbacks of Hail are far harder on the Tempest than the drabacks on Void are to the Megathron. The Blasters would still have better tracking, and both would have the same effective range.
Remember that the Megathron would also have 200 calibration left to play with where the Tempest has only 100. Also remember that we're talking about a Megathron using a T1 rig, compared to the Tempest using a T2 rig. In short, balderdash!
The same thing using easily attainable faction ammo:
Tempest /w RF EMP vs Megathron /w CN Antimatter
Tempest gets 896 + drones for a total of 1106 DPS compared to the Megathron's 952 + drones for a total of 1269 DPS.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:36:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/09/2007 17:37:07
You are still using the wrong ammo on the Tempest, the Wrong ammo on the Megathron, ignoring that the tempest still fits with the tech 1 rigs. Ignoring that the Tempest is faster than the Megathron, ignoring that autocannons dont use cap, ignoring that autocannons have much better falloff than blasters.
You are ignoring everything important[like the actual dps versus armor of the ships, cap use, falloff, speed of the ship etc] and fudging the numbers to fit your ideal. Its fing ridiculous.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:44:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Goumindong
the tempest still fits with 2 of the t1 rigs. You are STILL using the wrong ammo for the Megathron.
You are still ignoring all the other benefits of the autocannons.
Using two T1 rigs would give you a double penalty to fitting requirements and would consume all your calibration, meaning that each 800mm Repeater would consume 34 CPU and 2183 power with max skills (37 & 2352 with minimum skills). This would mean the guns alone would consume 17464 power. The loadout above without guns consumes 4007 power, and as you would have no calibration left would be to fit an RCU and replace one of your lowslot mods. So which one should go to allow you to do this?
Hardpoint Rigs |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:49:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Goumindong on 23/09/2007 17:51:04
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Originally by: Goumindong
the tempest still fits with 2 of the t1 rigs. You are STILL using the wrong ammo for the Megathron.
You are still ignoring all the other benefits of the autocannons.
Using two T1 rigs would give you a double penalty to fitting requirements and would consume all your calibration, meaning that each 800mm Repeater would consume 34 CPU and 2183 power with max skills (37 & 2352 with minimum skills). This would mean the guns alone would consume 17464 power. The loadout above without guns consumes 4007 power, and as you would have no calibration left would be to fit an RCU and replace one of your lowslot mods. So which one should go to allow you to do this?
Drop the injector. Add more ewar. Drop the plate, switch to tri hard + DC
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Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 17:57:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Drop the injector. Add more ewar. Drop the plate, switch to tri hard + DC
Still doesn't fit, even if you mean to drop BOTH plates. Don't forget the Tempest only has six low slots, which as above are filled with:
2x Gyro
2x 1600
1x EANM
1x DC
The only way you can get the guns to fit whilst using two T1 rigs (even with max skills) is by dropping both plates, the cap injector AND the microwarpdrive. Now the Tempest's only advantage over the Megathron is mooted.
Hardpoint Rigs |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:03:00 -
[89]
Quote:
The only way you can get the guns to fit whilst using two T1 rigs (even with max skills) and hardeners is by dropping both plates, the cap injector AND the microwarpdrive. Now the Tempest's only advantage over the Megathron (it's speed) is mooted.
My bad. By dropping both plates, it's possible to fit as:
2x Gyro
3x Hard
1x DC
1x 100MN MWD
However this would mean that you still have less DPS than the Megathron, and around 62,000 effective hitpoints compared to the near 80,000 the Megathron has (62,232 & 79,699 if you want to be precise). Again, this would mean that the Megathron would toast the Tempest!
Hardpoint Rigs |
kimish
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Posted - 2007.09.23 18:22:00 -
[90]
would way overpower already way overpowered ships and it would be the new "nos" module, a most have rig.-
baad thing
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"When the moderators are gone, the trolls dances on the table." |
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