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Petition: A much better way to deal with AFK cloakers

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Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.14 14:58:00 - [31] I'm gonna make another attempt to be reasonable here... and I'm doing it in the hopes that those who think AFK Cloakers are not a problem will at least try to understand the issues. 1> Ratters that cloak: If someone is ratting in your space, I understand that you'd like a way to remove them. But realistically, you have the ability to shut them down by hanging out in the system. They will eventually run out of ammo. They can't loot all the cans or they will fill up in minutes. So while it is annoying and a violation of your space, you have counters or limits on their choice of play. 2> Large ships cloaking: While some logic supports the idea that a large ship should be easy to find (and therefore can't cloak), just as much precedent exists for ONLY large ships being able to do it. Regardless, we currently have no modules that are limited to shiptypes - everything is based on whether you can fit it or not. 3> Covert Ops should be exempt from any Nerf: I agree that Covert Ops are the ships designed for stealth. However, any solution which excludes Covert Ops is no solution at all. While it may address a few of the cloak issues, it does not address them all. Covert Ops can Warp while cloaked - be happy with that. 4> AFK Cloakers: This is the one issue that people seem to be extremely polarized on. Most of the nay-sayers seem to think that someone AFK does not pose a problem at all. This is incorrect - monsterously so. I recognize that you may have a strong opinion formed already, but please try to envision this scenario: You are in 0.0, with a hostile alliance nearby. From time to time each of you forms gangs and attacks the other. When combat time is on, scouts and gangs provide a measure of security. But what about the other 95% of the time? You'd like to mine or rat to replace that BS you just lost. You need to make money so that you can play PVP. Now imagine that there is an AFK cloaker in system. He's there 23/7, in a safe spot so far out that the Sun looks like another star. Sometimes he's at the keyboard - most of the time he's not. If he is there, and you've got a 10-man Hulk gang exposed in a belt, he can tell his alliance exactly where and what you got and they'll be here in 5 minutes. The problem is, you never know if he's AFK and you can't find him by any means. After a few billion isk worth of Hulks get blown up, you're not gonna get anyone to mine anymore. After enough Ratters get wasted that form of income is gone too. Your alliance is being slowly bled to death by one guy's alt that he looks at a few times a day. If you think this is farfetched, won't happen, or has a counter to it then you are dreaming. This is exactly what RA did to KOS in the C-J area. RA was down to one remaining 0.0 station, and many were predicting their death. I was based out of the newly-liberated N7- station 5 jumps from C-J, and RA had one or two AFK cloakers in system 23/7 for weeks. There was nothing we could do - if we had the firepower to challenge the RA fleets that came by then we would have been camping them into the C-J system. Most times we tried to mine or rat, a sufficient gang of BS's would be there in minutes. The entire system became useless, because one AFK alt MIGHT be watching. I consider this type of activity an exploit because there was no way we could counter it. I prefer for ALL cloaks to be non-repeating, instead of the other nerfs which all have loopholes. If you have a civilized response to the AFK cloaker problem, I'd love to hear it. But please try to understand that AFK Cloakers are indeed a problem. Just give me some counter to it and I'll be happy.
PathetiQ Gallente The Rat Pack	Posted - 2007.06.14 15:16:00 - [32] You people are weird, cloak mean to be...cloak No nerf needed, not another nerf cloak post needed, please close this!
Serial Driller	Posted - 2007.06.14 15:24:00 - [33] Originally by: Princess Jodi ...Now imagine that there is an AFK cloaker in system. He's there 23/7, in a safe spot so far out that the Sun looks like another star. Sometimes he's at the keyboard - most of the time he's not. Okay. Civilized response. Here goes... How do you know he's there at all? Answer: Because he appears in local chat, correct? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of stealth? In RL, or in any logical world, if a ship were to cloak, do you honestly believe they'd be stupid enough to break radio silence (i.e., be detectable through communications)? The fact that you are able to detect a player at all is already damaging to the concept of stealth. Does that mean I think covert ops should be godly? Not at all. There should be anti-covert ops measures. For example, maybe be able to form a detection grid (using a new sentry drone?) around a POS, or some other counter measure. Still, seeing them in local is just ******. Originally by:** K'reemy G'udness I think the kind of person who's going to do well at eve is the autodidact. This game requires self teaching, and what that doesn't cover, pain will do the rest.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.14 15:53:00 - [34] Thank You. That was indeed civilized. I support some sort of counter to cloaks. The counter should not have exceptions for Covert Ops or any other ship type. Having a cloak timer or Heat or no-repeat feature seems a rather easy way to deal with it and not nerf legimmate active players. Logging people out of Eve after 30 min just might help the lag as well.
Serial Driller	Posted - 2007.06.14 16:16:00 - [35] Edited by: Serial Driller on 14/06/2007 16:18:00 Originally by: Princess Jodi Thank You. That was indeed civilized. I support some sort of counter to cloaks. The counter should not have exceptions for Covert Ops or any other ship type. Having a cloak timer or Heat or no-repeat feature seems a rather easy way to deal with it and not nerf legimmate active players. Logging people out of Eve after 30 min just might help the lag as well. I'll concede to automatic log off after 30 minutes. Since I like to base most of my statements on the side of logic, then I admit that there is no logical reason for an inactive player to remain in the game if he isn't actually playing. In that area, I'm with you. The method of adding this should include something more than just "hit this button to stay logged on" or it can be macro'ed. Maybe after 30 minutes of inactivity (not auto-piloting through systems, etc.), a dialog window pops up asking the player to input a random 5 digit code displayed in that same dialog window. Originally by: K'reemy G'udness I think the kind of person who's going to do well at eve is the autodidact. This game requires self teaching, and what that doesn't cover, pain will do the rest.
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:00:00 - [36] Automatic log off after 30 minutes of inactivity makes complete sense. Totally support. But since this is also a thread about people using local as an intelligence tool, I have to also say, remove local. Especially with the coming removal of all fixed position belts, local needs to go away now.
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:46:00 - [37] to all your trollers on this thread: this is by no means a whine, I have lost nothing to cloaked ships, i am not bitter, and i am not complaining. I am trying to propose a solution to a subject which is much debated on these forums. The timer should be fixed, and there should be a popup to reactivate, wich appears 20 seconds before you would uncloak. the cloak does not garanty health, wealth and happiness to the ratter, as they cant do ANYTHING. Wait and kill. but it means that you cant park a ship in hostile territory and limit their operations, as they dont know if the cloaked ship is providing intel to its alliance. ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:48:00 - [38] Originally by: BubbaZanetti Automatic log off after 30 minutes of inactivity makes complete sense. Totally support. But since this is also a thread about people using local as an intelligence tool, I have to also say, remove local. Especially with the coming removal of all fixed position belts, local needs to go away now. Yes, autolog is a similar solution, and perhaps easier to implement, and harder to avoid using a macro. But gasps that would make EvE like all the other MMORPGs! ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.06.14 17:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Miz Cenuij Im all for a time limit on cloaks, but would suggest it not be less than 20 mins, so we can lose agro and set the pc to shut down at that time if RL calls us away. Else we will have to commit to a minimum play time whenever we log on and go agro. Isn't that the point though? If you aggro, you had best be sure you can defend yourself for the next 15mins. Your suggestion seems like a nice way to grief some poor bastard, then hide cloaked until the timer runs out.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.06.14 18:13:00 - [40] Originally by: Zalathar I am trying to propose a solution to a subject which is much debated on these forums. Solution to what problem? Originally by: Zalathar The timer should be fixed, A fix means there is a problem somewhere. I dont see a problem so there is no need for a fix. Originally by: Zalathar but it means that you cant park a ship in hostile territory and limit their operations, as they dont know if the cloaked ship is providing intel to its alliance. Buhu. So there¦s a ship you cant find nor gank? Who cares? Ship lovers click here
Cpt Branko	Posted - 2007.06.14 18:13:00 - [41] Meep, someone could just ignore auto-logoff easily, by making either a macro, or more simply, wedging a key in / whatever, so the player seems constantly active. Removing local together with making cloaks scannable would be very interesting, but I can't say i'm all for it. Possibly it is not the best solution. Anyway, local in low-sec nerfs piracy, though, since I know when I'm doing something in low-sec, i check local to find out if there's any known pirates in system (and I know most of them in the system i'm typically in) and I know wether to dock, or just go about my business, or safespot, or get the hell out.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.06.14 18:22:00 - [42] You are forcing non pvp players into pvp just so you can score kills. @Jodi I understand that a cloaked ship means a thread to mining/ratting operations but there is no need to change cloak mechanics. Maybe just disable scanning in everything but a ship with a cov ops cloak. I said it before and I say it again: Give eve an afk timer so ppl that are afk for 30 mins(?) log out to the char screen. Hell, even wow has it and it does work. Shame on you, devs. Ship lovers click here
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.14 18:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Zalathar I am trying to propose a solution to a subject which is much debated on these forums. Solution to what problem? Originally by: Zalathar The timer should be fixed, A fix means there is a problem somewhere. I dont see a problem so there is no need for a fix. Originally by: Zalathar but it means that you cant park a ship in hostile territory and limit their operations, as they dont know if the cloaked ship is providing intel to its alliance. Buhu. So there¦s a ship you cant find nor gank? Who cares? ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.14 19:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Princess Jodi If you have a civilized response to the AFK cloaker problem, I'd love to hear it. But please try to understand that AFK Cloakers are indeed a problem. Just give me some counter to it and I'll be happy. Counter - Put your own cloaked ship in your enemy space... then they can have the same cost as you. Personally, I think Cloaks have enough limits as it is... further limits will just make them about useless... and as with all attempts like this, any change that affects those players doing what folks find bad (afk cloaking in this case) will also end up affecting a player who is not (spy in your space looking to cause you problems or gain intel) Even I, a Carebear from Empire Space, can understand the issues you point out Princess Jodi, but as I have been told so many times, Life in eve is harsh. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.14 19:32:00 - [45] SIGNED ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.14 20:16:00 - [46] In one of these threads soon, I believe I'm going to compile a list of those I believe have never flown a covops ship. I'll post that list and ask the individuals in said thread to respond. In every cloaking thread that I've read so far, I think have seen maybe 2 people that fly covops ships - the rest are a bunch cloaking BS ratters. Mari Onette - "Massive firepower, total stealth. Pick one You don't get to have both, that screws up game balance."
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.14 20:50:00 - [47] I still dobnt see how you can prove the difference between an AFK cloaker and a cloaker who just feels like ignoring you to ** you off or one who may be on 2 accounts. Untill you can do that.. all this BS is speculation. ========================= Minister of Propaganda** - Operator 9
Sydonis Caldari Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.14 21:19:00 - [48] OK, question - how do you know that he's actually AFK all the time? I've stood 12-hour watches at a gate before now during long ops and trust me, I hate the idea of a 30-minute inactivity timer... why? Because most of a cov-ops pilot's life is sitting there getting bored and occasionally changing vector to stay in sight of the gate or POS or whatever else they're assigned to. Not to mention they may actually want to go and eat at some point... (also, do you count typing in channels as "activity"? If so, the macros guys are going to use that anyhow in a private convo between them probably to make it harder to detect - one pulse every 25 minutes would probably do it). :( The point is, a cov-ops frigate is good for two things - one is hiding the other is scanning. It needs the hiding to do the probing. It needs its prey to be used to the fact that it's around so they stop logging off and start to act normally. This is the way of the covert pilot. If you make covert ops ships probeable, you'll end up with no covert-ops pilots in the game except the wannabes who use alts to fly them. The serious cov-ops pilots, like myself, will simply look for a ship that can actually shoot back - right now, a locked cov-ops is a dead cov-ops. It even takes around 30 seconds to kill a pod, guys... If you want security in 0.0 mining ops, take an escort and post pickets a few jumps out like anyone else (oooh... shock, horror, you actually might need the very cov-ops pilots you're trying to cripple). Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but anyone that says that cov-ops need to be nerfed is obviously wearing a tinfoil hat that's a few sizes too small. Now, on the other hand, Recons are a different matter - an afk recon you can nerf if you want - they can hold their own in a fight to a degree and are larger, so can take a bit of punishment, but cov-ops frigates need all the help they can get. And lastly, non-coverts really do need to be nerfed. Nothing annoys a cov-ops pilot more than having the ratting apoc you flew 7 or 8 jumps to find just log off or cloak as soon as you arrive. My solution? Have all cloaks probe-prone, but have each assigned a value. This value, combined with the sig radius of the ship, will provide the likelyhood of the ship to be found. Yes, I do include the cov-ops cloak in this, but it should give such a high ECCM rating as to be near-impossible to find. A cloaked Apoc would hence be an easy target to find when compared to a cloaked interceptor (pretty low risk). Two other measures I'd like to see are a bomb for the new bomb launchers and interdictor launchers that would disable a cloak inside that blast radius (for one cycle - just long enough for an alert inty to lock him) and an increased time delay for non-cov-ops cloaks - if they want a decent lock time, let them train for it.
Cpt Branko	Posted - 2007.06.14 21:28:00 - [49] Sydonis, that and the ability to mess up the AFK timer (via macro or jamming a key down) means that it's a no-brainer it won't help. You probably gave the best and most balanced idea around, so far. Your sig bloody wins, though ;)
Chris Stormrider	Posted - 2007.06.14 21:36:00 - [50] just remove local, for crying out loud...
Sydonis Caldari Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.14 21:40:00 - [51] I'd sooner they didn't tbh... I got some nice intel off the IAC guys during our last campaign over there... and they didn't seem to notice me in local - or assumed I was afk.
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.14 22:09:00 - [52] Originally by: Xtro 2 Tell me "exactly" how someone who is afk, poses any kind of threat or concern. obviously you havent had to deal with armies of chinese isk farmers in your sovreign systems, collecting all the dread guristas and officer spawns, and warping/cloaking when someone enters the system. they are extremely hard to catch if they know what theyre doing. my solution is for ships without cloak bonuses to have to use fuel to keep the cloak active, and increase the fuel usage based on ship size.
Gemmi Onyc	Posted - 2007.06.14 22:18:00 - [53] Countdown timer for EVE modules would be a simple feature that you could have on or off in the options/ Just have the module shade slightly darker and tick round in a circle like a clock on the module as it's cycle progress's. As in command and conquer building an item style etc that loads of games have used to represent time on an icon.
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.15 06:00:00 - [54] if there is a logoff timer, a player should not be able to deactivate it. The problem witha timer is tha it is too easy to counter with macros. I dont have much expierence with macros, but could you nake the logoff timer only reset with physical input (click of mouse or single keyboard stroke (no permanent ones, to combat the paperweights). ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
Alakazam Bob The Builder Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.15 06:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Zalathar AFK cloakers limit people operations, as you dont know if they are afk, or just waiting to swoop down on a unsuspecting player. If you are managing an alliance, then they might be spying on you. and how exactly is this different from afk docked at station? there is already a thread about this somewhere... but I think no autorepeat on all cloaks except the cov-ops type t2
Dread Operative Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.15 06:31:00 - [56] Every module needs some way to show how much time is left on its activation. Possibly a colored ring that circles the icon, instead of a green glow.
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.15 07:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Alakazam Originally by: Zalathar AFK cloakers limit people operations, as you dont know if they are afk, or just waiting to swoop down on a unsuspecting player. If you are managing an alliance, then they might be spying on you. and how exactly is this different from afk docked at station? there is already a thread about this somewhere... but I think no autorepeat on all cloaks except the cov-ops type t2 because in a station, you cant use the directional scanner, and most 0.0 systems dont actually have stations. thats why. ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
Kale Kold Lensmen	Posted - 2007.06.15 07:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Zalathar AFK cloakers limit people operations, as you dont know if they are afk, or just waiting to swoop down on a unsuspecting player. If you are managing an alliance, then they might be spying on you. But isn't that the whole point of a cloak?
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.06.15 08:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Zalathar AFK cloakers limit people operations, as you dont know if they are afk, or just waiting to swoop down on a unsuspecting player. If you are managing an alliance, then they might be spying on you. But isn't that the whole point of a cloak? yes, but you dont know if they are going to swoop, or just afk, and limiting operations... ~~~~~~ mods, if you think i'm ugly please say "eeek!" ~~~~~~ eeeeeekk - Deckard eeeeee...K -Darth Patches gawwwd damn!!1 -zhuge
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.15 09:00:00 - [60] make a cloaking minigame, with sliders, nobs and dials that are used to adjust the harmonics of the ship. only a small adjustement every few minutes is required, but something that a macro would not be able to perform. then you are guaranteed a person cannot be afk, at least if they do go afk then after a few failed adjustments, they decloak. _________________________________________________________ DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine

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