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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.15 15:32:00 -
[31]
 Quote:
Those sure aren't pretty figures Jash I have to admit, and something sure smelled fishy when Sally and I ended up on the same side of the argument ;)
Tell you what though, that new war system drunkenmaster mentioned sounds very interesting indeed.
mmmmmm-tasty!
I dunno, on further reading, it is looking more like non-consentual PVP is going to be eliminated. Check out TomB's devblog. Ignore kipkruide though, he's from Kiroshi, who are represented by a liar.
Hopefully, TomB will further elaborate on his plans.
.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 15:54:00 -
[32]
Quote:
I dunno, on further reading, it is looking more like non-consentual PVP is going to be eliminated. Check out TomB's devblog. Ignore kipkruide though, he's from Kiroshi, who are represented by a liar.
Hopefully, TomB will further elaborate on his plans.
Just read it myself. Just have one thing to say:
Thank God I have active accounts with other MMOGs.
And that's being serious.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.01.15 15:57:00 -
[33]
Well, after some good technical steps in PvP this would be a major idealistic drawback in PvP.
It's not realistic in anyway and I am quite disappointed that TomB is going to do it that way.
--
Stories: #1
--
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:07:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Athule Snanm on 15/01/2004 16:09:40
As people reading the notes to the blog will see I am also very concerned with this.
Currently in EVE the only way you can enforce justice against a corp operating in Empire space is to use a corp war. Admittedly corp wars can be declared rather casually at the moment and members can flit in and out of corps once one has started - and these things need sorting out, not what basically amounts to an elimination of the only punishment method EVE has. If there was a court system or some other way of seeking retribution against a corp that's wronged you I might be tempted to go along with consensual wars, as it is I can see it as a license to grief, nothing more, nothing less.
Edit: just for the record the rest of the system rocks!
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:13:00 -
[35]
On reflection chaps, (and having now read the thing) ...
Its a real shame. I love the idea in principle but we can't do without non-consenual war decs.
I have posted in the dev blog my opinion.
I think the standings should allow multiple non-consensual war decs, but the control should be money, with a sliding scale of cost to each subsequent -10 (declaration status) ... with inherited -10 decs (from allies) being free.
As a principle I am with Sally, Druken, Athule and Jash. Non consenual warfare must stay.
JF Public Forum |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:18:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 16:20:20
Quote:
Well, after some good technical steps in PvP this would be a major idealistic drawback in PvP.
It's not realistic in anyway and I am quite disappointed that TomB is going to do it that way.
Quite seriously, if implemented as it stands it tells me something significant:
That this game will NEVER mature. Neither in mentality nor in implementation.
The game is already near freakishly safe compared to other MMOGs, with the only real risk coming from players willing to banish themselves out into the middle of nowhere due to loss of sec rating.
You cannot login to most other MMOGs and visit 90% of the locations worth visiting in near complete safety. And going to 0.0 to mine ark/bist or farm rats is not required to thrive in this game. Rendering non-empire space, in many cases Not Worth Visiting. There isn't even any significant amount of good scenery to brag that a person saw.
The game was designed around the foundation that tensions between the players in competition for resources, market dominance and faction favor would provide the majority of the content through how the players interacted. With Non-Consentual wars and Non-Consentual PvP being valid methods to force compliance.
Bah...I had more on mind to finish this. But why write 8 pages of long winded arguing to fall on deaf ears?
Simple summary:
This goes through and most likely my parting words will be "You flippin CAREBEARS". 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:26:00 -
[37]
Don't despair Jash, we're in agreement on this one. Lets just lobby the chap and try and get the idea refined to allow non-consensual war in some form that works with the new system.
Clearly TomB isn't a loon (or he wouldn't have bothered floating the idea and inviting comments).
Lets not panic till the fat-lady sings.
JF Public Forum |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:31:00 -
[38]
OK, I read the blog again, and I still can't see where TomB stated that non-consentual war slots will be removed at the same time.
I don't want to read all the comments, though, so somebody please give me a quote.
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:32:00 -
[39]
i'm spamming cause i think this would work and eliminate the consentual war crap:
i thought 1 person had a good idea but i want to elaborate. get rid of the concentual war stuff (ie. crap),
the corp that declares the war has to pay a fee per declaration of war (non concentual)
ex. corp A declares war on corp b, pays 1mil to "concord" whatever
corp A then declares war on corp c, pays 2 mil to "concord"
and so on and so on. so not only do you have to pay for and materials losses but another fee to "concord" that increases with each new declaration (non conentual). make it like a recurring payment every 2 weeks or such.
BUT
if say corp b then declares war back on corp A, corp A will no longer have to pay the fee as it is now mutual.
hopefully it will keep corps from declaring war on the EVE universe (which they could still do, but just be very very costly)
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:38:00 -
[40]
Yep, for all I got called a communist by those lovely chaps at Taggart ;) I do believe cash is the answer to most dilemmas in balancing.
Making corps pay for non-consensual war decs is the way to go.
Roleplay wars (where both agree) can be free and thats fine.
But for professional mercs and pirates and people going for kills in empire space it would make total sense for them to pay for the maintenance of war decs.
Plus .... the cost of it, would provide a driver for ending war decs.
At the moment there is no real way of encouraging corps to end the status of war. (beyond bashing them).
What do you think TomB?
1+2+4+8+16m per week per war dec? (-10 standing)
(free if the target repicrates with -10 standing)
Is that doable?
And can it work with the system you propose?
Love and peace
(PS ... if you were really daring you could set a various price on each stage of dec based on the total number of decs outstanding. A market economy in murder and mayhem ... think of that!)
JF Public Forum |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 16:50:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 16:53:12
Quote:
Don't despair Jash, we're in agreement on this one. Lets just lobby the chap and try and get the idea refined to allow non-consensual war in some form that works with the new system.
Clearly TomB isn't a loon (or he wouldn't have bothered floating the idea and inviting comments).
Lets not panic till the fat-lady sings.
It's not despair. I've certainly nothing to lose to cause despair. Any development group so willing to destroy their product in knee-jerk reactions to blatant lies, without rational analysis the reality of the situation, will NEVER produce a quality product.
There had been almost enough changes to provide substantial evidence to come to that conclusion. If this gets implemented, the evidence will be conclusive in my eyes.
How can you hope to create a game where the foundation of the content is provided by the tensions between players and how they resolve those tensions if a significant means to resolve those tensions requires people to agree that they don't like each other enough to kill each other?
Games where PvP are less a defining factor have put more effort and thought into the implementation of their PvP systems. This is a game breaker.
Editted P.S.
And it's not just about whether or not this feature gets implemented. It's the fact that they're even considering it and arguing rather agressively for it that's most disturbing.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.15 17:49:00 -
[42]
This is to stop 'big' corps declaring war on 'noob' corps, for no reason....
Can anyone name me one instance where this has happened...
As Jash said, the war bought between SPVD and Kiroshi Group has nothing to do with noobs, or pirates.
It is a corp war with a long-standing corp, with far more resources/assets/players than us. The fact that they send their newest players out to get slaughtered is just an indication of the character of their directors.
If it were a noob corp, then I wouldn't have taken the job on.
I personally have no interest in fighting noobs. It is neither a challenge, nor financially worthwhile, nor even fun.
I claim shenanigans on this entire corp, from the guys who 'leave' the corp to help you make bookmarks around our ships, to your 'allies' with their convo/gang/target spamming. The directors have shown what level *they* like to play on, taking their complaints and lying to the devs about the situation.
Anyway, what this boils down to, is that this is a legitimate war being waged for genuine reasons.
Like James Bond, though, our reputation precedes us.
.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.15 19:31:00 -
[43]
i m away for a couple of hours and things get even worse!
what the **** is this?!?
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Druanna
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Posted - 2004.01.15 20:14:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Druanna on 15/01/2004 20:19:37
Quote:
i m away for a couple of hours and things get even worse!
what the **** is this?!?
It's just Jash trolling again. Nobody is allowed to play the game in any way but his.
In his mind, it's perfectly fine to declare war on a non-pvp(mining, research, trading) corp as long as their member count is larger than yours and/or has been around longer.
I guess to him that means all the starter uni's should be open season for griefers. The starter corps are all MUCH larger and have been around since the first day, so I guess it's ok to grief them in 1.0 systems without their consent.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.15 20:29:00 -
[45]
sorry pal, but i m on jash s side in this one.
(and you d have known if you had read the thread...)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 20:31:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
i m away for a couple of hours and things get even worse!
what the **** is this?!?
It's just Jash trolling again. Nobody is allowed to play the game in any way but his.
In his mind, it's perfectly fine to declare war on a non-pvp(mining, research, trading) corp as long as their member count is larger than yours and/or has been around longer.
I guess to him that means all the starter uni's should be open season for griefers. The starter corps are all MUCH larger and have a massive amount of members, so I guess it's ok to grief them in 1.0 systems without their consent.
You wouldn't know what I want Druanna. I haven't bothered to tell you what I want. And without that bit of knowledge I'll always look contradictory to you as you'll only bark when I say something you don't agree with.
You're a twip who actually thinks shouting "Troll!" in local, sending me stupid evemails insisting that I'm a Polaris and otherwise looking for every method you think will elevated you from nobody to nuisance.
What you don't get is if you're a nobody, you remain there. Now go back under your bridge.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Druanna
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Posted - 2004.01.15 21:05:00 -
[47]
Quote:
What you don't get is if you're a nobody, you remain there. Now go back under your bridge.
thanks for proving my point, Troll.
oh, and please stop making things up. I've never evemailed you, and I don't yell at/about you in local chat, you're on my blocked list from all the idiotic "stop posting on the forums OR YOU'LL BE SORRY" infantile crap you mailed to me.
end yourself.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.15 21:11:00 -
[48]
While I'm here in the CSM thread...
TomB said they were planning on instituting a system to inform CEO's/directors of people their corp has killed/podded.
It's a fantastic idea, and I look forward to it.
BUT
Could you add a new journal, rather than send emails?
that way, you reduce the mail spam, and have a central record that only needs to be on the database once.
.
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.01.15 21:43:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Maud Dib on 15/01/2004 21:47:30
Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 15:13:57
Kiroshi Group:
Founder: Veyn, Member of Kiroshi Group for 8 months and 8 days
Member Count: 104
Stain Alliance Member
Space Invaders:
Founder: Setec, Member of Space Invaders for 8 months and 1 day
Member Count: 37
CSM Log:
Quote:
Dawnstar > The people who suffer the most from the way corp wars are implemented right now are the newest players to the game, who haven't decided if they are going to stay with it
Reality:
A corporation whose member count outnumbers Space Invaders 3 to 1, has existed for 7 more days than Space Invaders and is a member of a large scale alliance misrepresents themselves as a a defenseless group of new players during the CSM meeting, attempting to use pity and sympathy to have corp wars nerfed.
I sincerely hope TomB, Oveur, GM Panzer and the other developers log into their play characters tonight and convince their corporations to declare war on the Kiroshi Group as well. Such a poorly implemented, blatant attempt at manipulation deserves such a response.
Hell, I hope SA pods the lot of you for making them look bad by association 
If this get implemented because of this I hope we all band together and suicide attack them in empire forever. In fact why don't we start now?
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.01.15 21:51:00 -
[50]
Non-consensual war has to stay - yet at the same time it makes no sense for pirate corps to be able to use declarations of war to freely ignore the law within empire space. It'd be the equivalent of criminals declaring war on a bank so the police wouldn't be allowed to stop them.
What the solution is, I've no idea. Limit the ability to declare war in empire war to those corps which Concord recognise as legitimate. Which could be defined as (off top of head) if the sec status of their members averages above zero?
Would that work? My guess is it's probably exploitable so any better ideas? Because whilst I agree 100% that there has to be a non-consensual war mechanism, such wars should be over power and territory, not a way of getting a licence to pirate in policed space. IMHO. :-)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:02:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Quote:
What you don't get is if you're a nobody, you remain there. Now go back under your bridge.
thanks for proving my point, Troll.
oh, and please stop making things up. I've never evemailed you, and I don't yell at/about you in local chat, you're on my blocked list from all the idiotic "stop posting on the forums OR YOU'LL BE SORRY" infantile crap you mailed to me.
end yourself.
Druanna, you'll not want to question my word as too many people know I don't lie. And your own actions speak louder than your claims otherwise with you attacking me out the blue both here and in the dev blog.
You don't like my opposition to what I perceive as a stupid move? Fine. That's your option. And it's my option to state as clearly as possible that this move is poorly thought out, shows a lack of understanding in the actual game, shows a severe lack of understanding in the people playing the game and offers nothing but bracket coloring while further increasing the gap between moronic levels of safety and moronic levels of danger.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:15:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Edited by: Maud Dib on 15/01/2004 21:47:30
Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 15:13:57
Kiroshi Group:
Founder: Veyn, Member of Kiroshi Group for 8 months and 8 days
Member Count: 104
Stain Alliance Member
Space Invaders:
Founder: Setec, Member of Space Invaders for 8 months and 1 day
Member Count: 37
CSM Log:
Quote:
Dawnstar > The people who suffer the most from the way corp wars are implemented right now are the newest players to the game, who haven't decided if they are going to stay with it
Reality:
A corporation whose member count outnumbers Space Invaders 3 to 1, has existed for 7 more days than Space Invaders and is a member of a large scale alliance misrepresents themselves as a a defenseless group of new players during the CSM meeting, attempting to use pity and sympathy to have corp wars nerfed.
I sincerely hope TomB, Oveur, GM Panzer and the other developers log into their play characters tonight and convince their corporations to declare war on the Kiroshi Group as well. Such a poorly implemented, blatant attempt at manipulation deserves such a response.
Hell, I hope SA pods the lot of you for making them look bad by association
If this get implemented because of this I hope we all band together and suicide attack them in empire forever. In fact why don't we start now?
TomB has stated that this was not the reason for these changes. (which on the most part are good)
.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.15 22:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 22:38:02
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Maud Dib on 15/01/2004 21:47:30
Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/01/2004 15:13:57
Kiroshi Group:
Founder: Veyn, Member of Kiroshi Group for 8 months and 8 days
Member Count: 104
Stain Alliance Member
Space Invaders:
Founder: Setec, Member of Space Invaders for 8 months and 1 day
Member Count: 37
CSM Log:
Quote:
Dawnstar > The people who suffer the most from the way corp wars are implemented right now are the newest players to the game, who haven't decided if they are going to stay with it
Reality:
A corporation whose member count outnumbers Space Invaders 3 to 1, has existed for 7 more days than Space Invaders and is a member of a large scale alliance misrepresents themselves as a a defenseless group of new players during the CSM meeting, attempting to use pity and sympathy to have corp wars nerfed.
I sincerely hope TomB, Oveur, GM Panzer and the other developers log into their play characters tonight and convince their corporations to declare war on the Kiroshi Group as well. Such a poorly implemented, blatant attempt at manipulation deserves such a response.
Hell, I hope SA pods the lot of you for making them look bad by association
If this get implemented because of this I hope we all band together and suicide attack them in empire forever. In fact why don't we start now?
TomB has stated that this was not the reason for these changes. (which on the most part are good)
drunkenmaster, do you believe we went from:
Quote:
TomB > The problem is that corporations that you call griefing corporations are only using their wars to fight corporations that are not military based and do not want to be in any kind of PvP.
TomB > We understand the concern but I personally have never heared about such problems until now. The design for corporation warfare is very old and we have never had any reason to redesign ... until now.
to:
Quote:
War declaration would be both sided, you need to accept war to go into war.
Because this had been in the back of his mind for a couple months?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.01.15 23:44:00 -
[54]
TomB...
--
Stories: #1
--
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Leitari
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Posted - 2004.01.16 05:54:00 -
[55]
might as well stop it now people, they're not going to listen to our "whining". We all know the solution.
Here, Only the silent survive.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.01.16 12:51:00 -
[56]
sad stuff.
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Tease
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Posted - 2004.01.16 14:02:00 -
[57]
what's with the "hiding" of threads lately? took me forever to dig this one up out of my cache..
-----------------------------------------
[2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's
less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level?
[2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning
lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you
[2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players
are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on
the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way |
Leitari
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:34:00 -
[58]
they dont feel its necessery for people to read about this stuff.
Here, Only the silent survive.
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2004.01.16 16:56:00 -
[59]
Corp A pokes corp B
Corp B says "quit it"
Corp A pokes Corp B
Corp B says "quit it"
repeat the above about 3432353 more times
Corp B says "we're declaring war on you"
Corp A says "no you aren't"
Corp B says "..." in true Manga style
Corp A pokes Corp B 4783648*10^47 more times
Corp B members start quitting in disgust and/or going pirate
Replace "pokes" above with any sort of annoying or unwelcome yet not-punished-by-CONCORD action.
So i guess the GMs really like harassment petitions after all?
What's been the single most common response to "these guys are ****ing me off?"
That's right. "DECLARE WAR AND STOP WHINING ALREADY!"
Guess CCP likes whining after all? Who knew.
In the above example, Corp A is teh win and will be every time. wtg gg.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Orestes
|
Posted - 2004.01.16 17:55:00 -
[60]
Lets see if this works..
Join the IC! |
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