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Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Cipher7 MMORPG time is worth nothing. If your time were worth anything, you wouldn't be spending it in a video game. Hehehe QFT! unless that game was your source of r/l income /me glares at the macro ppl
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:27:00 - [32] Originally by: max bygraves I value my time at nothing, Therefor it is free. You are rare, my friend. By the standards of an economist, you're not even human.
Sc0rpion Archer Daniels Midland	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Patch86 Meh, just be happy people do sell things at under value. 1: See loot being sold for less than the value of it's recycled minerals. 2: Buy. 3: Recycle. 4: ????? 6: Profit! I do that all the time. Works good. The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously. -Friedrich Nietzsche Killmails are for pooftas.
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:38:00 - [34] Edited by: Natalia Fachiri on 15/06/2007 20:39:31 Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Ratting loot and the mins therefrom are free if: 1: You collect and salvage as you go, adding no time to ratting. 2: you normally wouldn't bother picking it up. 3: you have run out of sell orders Correct me if I am wrong Number 1 is only true under the conditions that you dont loose time flying to wrecks to loot. Also if you are salvaging, you are sacrificing a high slot or slots to fit salvagers and that is slowing down your ratting in general. Any slowdown means less money from bounties. Number 2 is a direct consequence of what I wrote above. you only gain money from looting if the isk/mnute of looting nets items worth as much, or more then what you would make ratting for the same ammount if time. Say you make 100.000ISK per minute Ratting. If you loot a wreck and get items worth 50.000ISK, you made money compared to just ratting if it took you less then 30 seconds to loot. Same applies for salvaging, for the same reasons. Number 3 I dont understand. A sell order itself represents no monetary loss or gain (beyond what it cost you to set it up). You only gain money from a sellorder if someone buys your item(s) and if you are selling those items at a profit in the first place. Therefor if you have a sellorder or not does not matter for ratting gains, because you cant sell items you do not have. Evry sellorder you file has to have a stock of items there to sell. If you find an item you gain its potential isk worth, no matter if you sell it or not. And on Gifts: any and all gifts you recieve for no effort carry no cost for you, but for the one giving you the gift. If I hand you 1 billion ISK, I lost the billion and you gained it, without you having to go to any effort (all the effort is on my end of the equation). If I give you an item, its the same thing, only that you will need ot go thru some effort to either collect it, or sell it, but its still essentially a no cost thing for you.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:45:00 - [35] A gift has two possible costs 1) You feel beholden to show gratitude 2) You lose the giver's respect by failing to show gratitude. What constitutes showing gratitude is even more complex than the rest of this thread. ----- English is a complex language. Use it as best you can.
Masheine	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Cipher7 MMORPG time is worth nothing. That's not true. It's worth ($15) per month. <g> Originally by: Toria Nynys Exactly why tech1 ship/module manufacturing is a lose. The barrier is low enough that people who can't make sane ROI (return on time investment in this case) decisions can participate. No sense in moaning about it, just take advantage of it if you can, and ignore it if you can't. And hope these people don't figure out how to get into invention so they can ruin the tech 2 market, as well.
l3lind Man Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.15 21:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Jitagirl Goblin Voice Time is money friend ! i LOL'ed
Jennai Leonard J. Crabs Legal Consortium	Posted - 2007.06.15 21:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Toria Nynys Exactly why tech1 ship/module manufacturing is a lose. The barrier is low enough that people who can't make sane ROI (return on time investment in this case) decisions can participate. No sense in moaning about it, just take advantage of it if you can, and ignore it if you can't. I got out of module building because of that. some idiot who can't calculate costs puts up a few units below mineral cost, then some other idiot updates his huge order to undercut, and then all the other idiots keep going deeper and deeper into the negative profit zone while everyone with a brain pulls their orders and waits for the market price to go low enough to make reprocessing profitable. then the price gets reset to the proper levels and might last a week before the cycle starts over again.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.15 21:33:00 - [39] Those that get it, don't need this thread, and those that do... are completely hopeless. Tried so often to get this in some really really thick skulls. But it never works. And it is the biggest if not the only reason that the t1 market is so horrible.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.15 21:58:00 - [40] Its market PvP aint it. If I use the minerals I get from whoring level 4s to put my battlecruisers on the market at 2% above the highest buy order price in the region then thats my choice. Which, btw, is what I am doing. And using the rewards from the missions to keep my POS running so that I don't even have to pay the research and building costs. And even betterer the agents I am running are from R&D corps so now I have access to loverly mechanical engineering R&D agents. So my invention jobs cost me nuthin now too. Wouldn't you rather I was still a Privateer, providing you with customers, rather than me ****ting on your lawn ruining your profit margin?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:09:00 - [41] So, basically, you're giving away your earned ISK and/or datacores to annoy some people. That's nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize you are NOT making a pure ISK profit _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
MortyM Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Akita T So, basically, you're giving away your earned ISK and/or datacores to annoy some people. That's nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize you are NOT making a pure ISK profit It's a whole 'nother level of griefing. Self-griefing, for the most masochistic pirates out there :P
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:19:00 - [43] That said, there is something to be said for selling below market rates for quick sale and therefore more cashflow to turn into profit elsewhere. ----- English is a complex language. Use it as best you can.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Banana Torres Its market PvP aint it. If I use the minerals I get from whoring level 4s to put my battlecruisers on the market at 2% above the highest buy order price in the region then thats my choice. Which, btw, is what I am doing. And using the rewards from the missions to keep my POS running so that I don't even have to pay the research and building costs. And even betterer the agents I am running are from R&D corps so now I have access to loverly mechanical engineering R&D agents. So my invention jobs cost me nuthin now too. Wouldn't you rather I was still a Privateer, providing you with customers, rather than me ****ting on your lawn ruining your profit margin? So you're the one selling all the cheap ships? Privateer nerf was better than I ever dreamed! --------
Trovax Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.15 23:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Akita T I am sick and tired of the utter stupidity of this argument. Can we please just destroy this flawed meme for good ? No, it's not FREE. You spent TIME getting it, time you could have spent getting ISK in any other number of ways. You could sell it to somebody else, so it even has a clear value you can't deny. It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. Heres some backup materiel......yes people... a bit of culture!!!! (extract from : A WEALTH OF NATIONS) The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. What everything is really worth to the man who has acquired it, and who wants to dispose of it or exchange it for something else, is the toil and trouble which it can save to himself, and which it can impose upon other people. What is bought with money or with goods is purchased by labour as much as what we acquire by the toil of our own body. That money or those goods indeed save us this toil. They contain the value of a certain quantity of labour which we exchange for what is supposed at the time to contain the value of an equal quantity. Labour was the first price, the original purchase-money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all the wealth of the world was originally purchased; and its value, to those who possess it, and who want to exchange it for some new productions, is precisely equal to the quantity of labour which it can enable them to purchase or command. Nothing in life, be it real or simulated, is ever free. If you do it yourself, it costs you time. How much would that same amount of time earn you doing a bit of rattin, or missions? Im sure you can work the rest out for yourselves. This isnt a flame.....just some enlightenment "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"
Stakhanov kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.16 00:06:00 - [46] Opportunity cost applies to everything. I remember buying small nos all over the place , and selling them at 100+ times their price (200-300k)in Orvolle. A few hundred jumps for a mill or 2 per day... what a waste of time. I thought it was price gouging , but it's just servicing 0.0 dwellers who make billions per week. I still get some income from low profit trading , but it requires next to no effort (ie no need to check your orders all day) and it's satisfying to get those 9m transactions It goes for pirating as well. Not much point spending time , probes and efforts trying to catch a mission running burst... some are ruthless enough to do it just for the extra killmail. It's a big variable for pvp - or we would never bother hunting down people known for not dropping good loot. Gatecamping gives the highest killmail / hour and ISK / hour income , but is less fun than regular hunting (when there are targets to hunt) Podding people isn't a gratuitous action. It is a loss if the victim in question would have paid a ransom , podding has a price - it's up to the pirate to decide when it's not worth trying to ransom. I'd place mine around 5m , since I like scooping corpses. Of course , I would never buy corpses in bulk at 5m each - it is just important that I killed them myself
Srvin Taisorgky	Posted - 2007.06.16 00:15:00 - [47] It's not free it costs 14 and change a month (US $) and the time you could have spent doing something else .....priceless Which reminds me......
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.16 00:37:00 - [48] Originally by: Akita T So, basically, you're giving away your earned ISK and/or datacores to annoy some people. That's nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize you are NOT making a pure ISK profit I don't look at it as earning. I like to fly virtual spaceships. Ever since I had Elite on my beeb. Thats why I play Eve, not to earn ISK. I get enjoyment from determing the best ship and fitting for a particular mission. I set my self goals, like trying to do a mission faster or in a smaller ships or whatever. But always the side effect is ISK in the wallet and minerals in the corp hanger. I also get enjoyment from screwing over the whining carebear crafters who took away from me the thing that I enjoyed the most in my Eve life, being an, albeit a not very good, Privateer.
Samuel Miner Caldari Ramdon Industries corporation	Posted - 2007.06.16 02:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Akita T So, basically, you're giving away your earned ISK and/or datacores to annoy some people. That's nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize you are NOT making a pure ISK profit I don't look at it as earning. I like to fly virtual spaceships. Ever since I had Elite on my beeb. Thats why I play Eve, not to earn ISK. I get enjoyment from determing the best ship and fitting for a particular mission. I set my self goals, like trying to do a mission faster or in a smaller ships or whatever. But always the side effect is ISK in the wallet and minerals in the corp hanger. I also get enjoyment from screwing over the whining carebear crafters who took away from me the thing that I enjoyed the most in my Eve life, being an, albeit a not very good, Privateer. I like you, the pent up anger and stress radiates munificently from you. Can I be one with you ? I wish to partake in your evil doing (ingame obv).
Samuel Miner Caldari Ramdon Industries corporation	Posted - 2007.06.16 02:58:00 - [50] Originally by: MortyM Edited by: MortyM on 15/06/2007 23:14:33 Originally by: Akita T So, basically, you're giving away your earned ISK and/or datacores to annoy some people. That's nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize you are NOT making a pure ISK profit It's a whole 'nother level of griefing. Self-griefing, for the most masochistic pirates out there heheheehe self griefing. I like it!
Danzig256k Caldari Mortal Devastating Kin	Posted - 2007.06.16 03:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Cipher7 MMORPG time is worth nothing. If your time were worth anything, you wouldn't be spending it in a video game. i have to agree with ya there dude, i look at it this way. i pump out some missions with my main char, then i have my indy char loot/salvage and build what i need for me and my corp. and if i manage to sell some gear along the way to help out my follow gamers it's a win in my book.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.16 03:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Cipher7 MMORPG time is worth nothing. If your time were worth anything, you wouldn't be spending it in a video game. Cipher7 for the win Seriously, I put no "value" on my time spent playing EvE simply because the benefits are NOT in game; the benefits are relaxing in real life. I might spend an hour NPCing, I might spend it mining, I might spend it running some BPOs. In any case that time does not count for me any more than if I wasn't logged in, hence is "free" in my viewpoint. People that constantly worry about things like someone else not demanding a proper wage for their time in game should maybe owrry about real life instead.... <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Selene Le'Cotiere	Posted - 2007.06.16 04:28:00 - [53] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Seriously, I put no "value" on my time spent playing EvE simply because the benefits are NOT in game; the benefits are relaxing in real life. I might spend an hour NPCing, I might spend it mining, I might spend it running some BPOs. In any case that time does not count for me any more than if I wasn't logged in, hence is "free" in my viewpoint. People that constantly worry about things like someone else not demanding a proper wage for their time in game should maybe owrry about real life instead.... It's pretty much the same here, when I refer to the minerals I gain from ore/mods as well as from salvage materials, as being "free". Sure, there is a time sink involved in it. As a former employer used to put it when the hours would rack up during the busier times... "Go home, my time here is free, your's isn't". In her case, it was from an perspective of seeing her business stay a float. In my case, here playing EVE, it comes from an overall enjoyment from relaxing with the game. That is how I value the time I spend fending for myself while in game. But if you do want to the above adage in the context to an EVE industrial pov... I'm working for myself. I'm not paying others to mine my ore for me, or processing that ore. Nor am I paying anyone else to salvage my wrecks for me. My goal at this time is to be precisely what I'm doing now. that's to be a self sufficient as I can possibly be. The money I save, can then be put to other uses, while any excess materials I collect, become just further profit for me. So, as long as it doesn't feel like a "job" doing what I do in EVE, my time continues to be free.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.16 05:39:00 - [54] In summary: Person A: OMGWTF, you guys aren't doing quantitative analysis worth a damn on your time and efforts, you're not perfectly efficient. What's wrong with you? Person B: Can't be arsed to become a human spreadsheet, I'm having fun my way. Gotta love Eve, something for everyone. A couple of people are spending an obscene amount of resources and time to shave seconds off their L4 mission running time. Don't want to think about the payback time on THAT. Others want to squeeze every last ISK out of their trading/manufacturing playtime. Yet others are doing... stuff I can't understand. Just so long as we're all having fun, right?
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.06.16 11:03:00 - [55] It's not that they're not perfectly efficient, these people who fail to do the numbers are costing themselves money, more often than not. There are plenty of ships you can buy so cheaply that you can make a profit when you blow them up and collect the insurance (yes, I am including the insurance premium in that calculation). I used to spend hours arguing with those people. Now, I just take their money/goods. Recruitment FAQ
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.16 11:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Banana Torres I also get enjoyment from screwing over the whining carebear crafters who took away from me the thing that I enjoyed the most in my Eve life, being an, albeit a not very good, Privateer. I hate to break it to you, but if you think selling things for cheap is causing anyone any grief, you're probably mistaken. Half of them probably just buy it and resell at an instant profit. And all those "risk-free mission runners and / or traders" that Privateers took such joy in kaploding are just enjoying cheap equipment to use or trade --------
Jennai Leonard J. Crabs Legal Consortium	Posted - 2007.06.16 11:19:00 - [57] Originally by: BluOrange It's not that they're not perfectly efficient, these people who fail to do the numbers are costing themselves money, more often than not. I don't care if they're costing themselves money or not, but these people are the reason I switched from multiple-region equipment manufacturing to battleships in a hub station. all it takes is one idiot to set an order too low, and then you have to cancel your order and sit on the items until they undercut below the reprocessing threshold, or spend hours hauling all your crap around hoping to find a place where you can get a couple days of sales before the undercutters come.
ShardowRhino Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2007.06.16 12:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Hamfast Why do people get so worked up over things like this... I do missions on my combat guy... he salvages everything for my Industrialist to use to build things like Rigs for my Combat guy... Was it free? no, I took the time to salvage all the wrecks when I could have warped off to get another mission... My Industrialist got the parts free, the combat guy gave them to him... he did not need to buy them on the market, salvage anything... just click accept... But people want to get all worked up over "Implied Value"... because my Industrialist Could have made money by selling the parts or the rig... next thing you know I am going to get taxed on all these things... By the way, the first time I heard of this "Implied Value" was when someone wanted to "Tax" the Implied Income of a home owner, because of the money they would have received (income) had they rented out the house and not lived in it... dude you have this all wrong. If your keeping the stuff you looted/salvaged, no one gives a flying crap. When people are talking about this topic they are not refering to stuff you aquire on your own and use yourself. When they say "its not free,****!" they are refering to those that sell stuff on the market. Stuff for others to BUY and use. So keep that in mind. Now if you were to take those rig parts that you got and turned it into a rig then sold it for cheap, we are refering to you.Say you looked at the market and bought all the materials you need, at the lowest available price and made a rig and sold it. That rig is going to have a minimum value of the sum of all its parts. Since you bought the cheapest available parts you now made a rig at the lowest production cost possible. If you sell it for less your losing isk. If you sell it for an equal amount of isk then you just wasted your time. Even if you believe you aquired parts for free those parts still have a market value. If your selling the rig for less then what it would cost using the cheapest available parts off the market, then your loosing isk you could have made. Your going to ask "why?" i bloody know you will! The reason "why" is because you can sell the parts on the market,matching the lowest available price and still make the same amount of isk as if you were to build and sell a rig. Your losing isk because your buying a bpo,maybe refining it as well and then incurring production costs. Are you still making isk ? technically yes simply becuase your exchanging goods for isk/$. However your not making a PROFIT! Why make 20 mil when you can make 40mil? **...forget it... if basic economics eludes you, just dont make stuff. just stop building stuff, sell your bpos. people that think like you would go out of bussiness 2 weeks before you opened the bloody doors to your bussiness. Also the idea of "implied value" thats all wrong. If you have a tritanium and you look at the market and the lowest possible price you can get is 1 isk then that tritanium has a MINIMUM VALUE of 1 ISK! Of course with how the market is that tri has a maximum value of 3 or more isk. why give your tritanium away for zero isk when you can at least get 1 isk or a maximum of 3 isk?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.16 12:16:00 - [59] Originally by: Jennai Originally by: BluOrange It's not that they're not perfectly efficient, these people who fail to do the numbers are costing themselves money, more often than not. I don't care if they're costing themselves money or not, but these people are the reason I switched from multiple-region equipment manufacturing to battleships in a hub station. all it takes is one idiot to set an order too low, and then you have to cancel your order and sit on the items until they undercut below the reprocessing threshold, or spend hours hauling all your crap around hoping to find a place where you can get a couple days of sales before the undercutters come. Or you just buy that one guy's cheap order and resell it at the market average? Thats free money, surely. --------
ShardowRhino Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2007.06.16 12:19:00 - [60] Edited by: ShardowRhino on 16/06/2007 12:20:48 Originally by: cal nereus Originally by: max bygraves I value my time at nothing, Therefor it is free. You are rare, my friend. By the standards of an economist, you're not even human. even if you dont value your time,therefore having a value of $0.00 to you mentally your time does have an actual value. Why? regardless of what i think of someone(hahah) they have an operational cost. Unless your dead you have a minimum operational cost. you need to eat,thats part of the cost. you need water, thats another expenditure. Your obviously in someform of a shelter, thats another cost. You clearly use electricity,again more cost. Unless your a nudist, you need clothes which again is not free. Now add up the costs associated with your basic operational costs, then bust it down any way you want, either per week,per hour,per month. You will come up with a minimum value of your time. Of course you have to deduct X amount of hours per day/week/month/year for sleep, the minimum amount of sleep of course. Now if you were just to play eve in the middle of nowhere and didnt eat or drink: $15/sub for eve $50/cable connection $50/some source of electricity(adjust based on RL costs) ______________________________ $115 now assuming you just played eve at 7 days a week for 23 hours for 4 weeks, your basic operational cost would end up being: $0.17857142857142857142857142857143 or rounded up to $0.18 USD per hour of EVE. So we all have a minimum value of 18 cents per hour of eve. :) if you cant make that much RL money then your not going to be playing eve for very long,ignoring the fact that youdont have food ,water,shelter...

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