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"Stuff you mine/salvage/loot yourself is free"

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:45:00 - [1] I am sick and tired of the utter stupidity of this argument. Can we please just destroy this flawed meme for good ? No, it's not FREE. You spent TIME getting it, time you could have spent getting ISK in any other number of ways. You could sell it to somebody else, so it even has a clear value you can't deny. It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Jitagirl Jita Trade Services	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:48:00 - [2] Goblin Voice Time is money friend !
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:49:00 - [3] I have quit a corp over the fact that some of the main members couldn't understand that mining minerals to produce ships from a 0 ME BPO, with low industry skills, was stupid and not at all free... Not to mention wasting isk... I feel your pain. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:49:00 - [4] sends OP an invoice for $0.63 warp drive active \| nature vraie
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:53:00 - [5] Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2007 17:52:53 Originally by: Frug couldn't understand that mining minerals to produce ships from a 0 ME BPO, with low industry skills, was stupid and not at all free... Not to mention wasting isk... Heck, even with perfect build skills and almost perfectly researched blueprint, selling close to or UNDER mineral value is equally stupid, if not more. P.S. Well, if you're not trying to eliminate a competitor from a certain market, that is. That's actually a good idea. But I digress. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:57:00 - [6] Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 15/06/2007 17:56:35 The technical term people are looking for is "Opportunity Cost" In plain terms, the benefit you gain from work (your paycheck, ogling coworkers if you are so inclined etc) must outweigh the opportunity cost of not bumming around all day or you have no reason to get out of bed. ----- English is a complex language. Use it as best you can.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2007.06.15 17:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. \| WTS Archons and Nidhoggurs \| BMBE ISK Loans \|
Nymos Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. exactly -- Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:00:00 - [9] I try to remember that it's been very beneficial to me that many people see it that way. Essentially it's been isk dropping from their pockets into mine. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Nymos Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. exactly Only if you decide to keep it. ----- English is a complex language. Use it as best you can.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:02:00 - [11] Why do people get so worked up over things like this... I do missions on my combat guy... he salvages everything for my Industrialist to use to build things like Rigs for my Combat guy... Was it free? no, I took the time to salvage all the wrecks when I could have warped off to get another mission... My Industrialist got the parts free, the combat guy gave them to him... he did not need to buy them on the market, salvage anything... just click accept... But people want to get all worked up over "Implied Value"... because my Industrialist Could have made money by selling the parts or the rig... next thing you know I am going to get taxed on all these things... By the way, the first time I heard of this "Implied Value" was when someone wanted to "Tax" the Implied Income of a home owner, because of the money they would have received (income) had they rented out the house and not lived in it... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:05:00 - [12] Ok well i salvage in 0.0 in a frig which is the biggest ship i currently have there, so are you saying i have any other avenues of isk other than my salvaging which is therefore free as i couldn't have earned isk in that time. ---------
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Cypherous Ok well i salvage in 0.0 in a frig which is the biggest ship i currently have there, so are you saying i have any other avenues of isk other than my salvaging which is therefore free as i couldn't have earned isk in that time. What keeps you in 0.0? ----- English is a complex language. Use it as best you can.
acompton Gallente Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Winterblink sends OP an invoice for $0.63 Which is his clever way of saying time is money... BTW feel free to go over to SHC and start up arguements about opportunity costs and economics, apparently there are some ebil unbelieveers there who like to argue about it such that it is essentially a verboten subject... c
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Nymos Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. exactly Only if you decide to keep it. We're debating here on "free stuff". Free stuff IS free if you didn't spend anything on it, that's the very definition of "free". Getting something for free doesn't mean it has no value, don't confuse one with the other. What you spend to get something could be time, influence or ISK. If you are suddendly given something for no reason at all and no expectations from you, now, THAT is something "free". If you WORKED for it in any way, or are expected to do something in return for getting it, it's definetely NOT free. Now, onward to value... yes, everything you do get for free (truely for free, as in, from a friend who doesn't need it) still has a value, and that is the value you can sell that "stuff" for. Using that "stuff" to get something else is only beneficial for you if the value of the "free stuff" you give away is equal or lower than the value of what you receive in return. Getting the minerals to build a ship, then selling that ship for LESS than what you could sell the minerals for in the first place, that's just STUPID. Same for rigs, building rigs from salvage materials you have, and selling the rig for less than you could have sold the individual components, that's equally stupid. _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Nymos Beyond Divinity Inc Blind Beavers	Posted - 2007.06.15 18:21:00 - [16] Originally by: Cypherous Ok well i salvage in 0.0 in a frig which is the biggest ship i currently have there, so are you saying i have any other avenues of isk other than my salvaging which is therefore free as i couldn't have earned isk in that time. let's say you build a rig with it. how would you calculate the profit? let's assume that rig sells for 15m. is the profit 15m? let's also assume the components go for 12m in total on the market. is the profit now 3m? yes/no yes, in absolute values. you have 15m that you didn't have before and didn't really spend isk. no, in terms of cost accounting. in order to make different options comparable you need to consider opportunity costs or any implied value you consider right in order to properly value something. opportunity costs only are a factor if you compare options. like, sell the minerals or build something. someone told me he makes a killing building freighters. hundreds of millions profit a pop. i say "oh nice, how do you do that". he buys the bpcs (the only costs he considered) and mines his butt off (he could just sell the minerals)... actual costs from the bpcs + opportunity costs from minerals that could be sold directly = costs to compare vs income from selling the finished freighter. i think that's enough smartassing for today from my side sry -- Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
WredStorm Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:03:00 - [17] Edited by: WredStorm on 15/06/2007 19:04:36 I always use the current selling price for a component in my cost analysis, rather than the price I actually paid for the component in question. I then compare that to the price the finished good is selling for in order to determine whether or not I want to manufacture said item. For example, if a Flying Widget requires 100 units of tritanium to build and tritanium is selling for 2.4 ISK/unit then I use 240 ISK as the cost basis for each Flying Widget. Even if I only pay 2.0 ISK/unit for the tritanium I don't want to use 200 ISK as the cost basis for my manufactured Flying Widget because I could have simply sold those 100 units of tritanium for 240 and made a nice quick profit without having to actually go through the time and effort to manufacture the Flying Widget. So, if other Flying Widgets are being sold for 300 ISK each I know that I've got a reasonable buffer to price mine below the current pricing if I want to and still be making more ISK, overall, than if I'd simply sold the tritanium for 240 ISK. Let's say I sell my Flying Widget for 300 ISK... ignoring taxes and broker fees my overall profit is 300 ISK - 200 ISK (cost for the tritanium) = 100 ISK profit. This is 60 ISK more than I could have made by simply selling the tritanium for 240 ISK. I think some people simply look at their cost for the materials to build something and base their markup on that. If I did so in this example I might think a 20% markup was fine and charge 240 ISK for my finished Flying Widget. Although I'm still making a profit, it is the exact same profit I could have made just selling the tritanium and not going through the entire manufacturing process. Most people would consider it quite silly to spend the time manufacturing something only to make just as much ISK as you would have having sold the components in the first place. Of course, I'm keeping this scenario overyly simple and not factoring in anything like cost of the BPO/BPC or the cost to use the assembly line, etc. All of those are just more reasons to make sure you're maximizing your profits and that you are making a healthy amount more from selling a manufactured item versus simply selling the component parts. WredStorm ----- Think out of the box, consider passive shield tanking your Myrmidon, you'll be pleasantly surprised!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2007 17:52:53 Originally by: Frug couldn't understand that mining minerals to produce ships from a 0 ME BPO, with low industry skills, was stupid and not at all free... Not to mention wasting isk... Heck, even with perfect build skills and almost perfectly researched blueprint, selling close to or UNDER mineral value is equally stupid, if not more. P.S. Well, if you're not trying to eliminate a competitor from a certain market, that is. That's actually a good idea. But I digress. Meh, just be happy people do sell things at under value. 1: See loot being sold for less than the value of it's recycled minerals. 2: Buy. 3: Recycle. 4: ????? 6: Profit! --------
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Akita T I am sick and tired of the utter stupidity of this argument. Can we please just destroy this flawed meme for good ? hands Akita a flamethrower Burn the meme! //Maya
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:22:00 - [20] people selling things below (mineral) buildcosts = Unless perhaps u got them for next to no work (rewards or something) and need to get rid of it fast. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
darkmancer	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:23:00 - [21] Edited by: darkmancer on 15/06/2007 19:23:30 Originally by: Cypherous someone told me he makes a killing building freighters. hundreds of millions profit a pop. i say "oh nice, how do you do that". he buys the bpcs (the only costs he considered) and mines his butt off (he could just sell the minerals)... actual costs from the bpcs + opportunity costs from minerals that could be sold directly = costs to compare vs income from selling the finished freighter. i think that's enough smartassing for today from my side sry There's other ways to look at thing besides the cold hard facts. They don't take into account things like by setting himself such a big goal with defined targets (x trit,y pyer), that he mines harder and for longer then he would normally? You mine a load of mins and sell them on the market. Big deal who cares. Actually building something like a capital ship is quite impressive, and a moral booster. I could make a load of isk trading on the market, i don't, why? like alot of other players i can't be arsed. Eve's not a job, it's not based on how much isk you earn/hr, even though a healthy wallet does help enjoyment. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:25:00 - [22] Yeah, I dunno how many times I have had this conversation with rl friends, corps mates and alliance mates. Trying to pound into their skulls that everything has the value that the market will pay for it, is harder than one should think. And especially stuff that you worked for/spend time on yourself. Trying to make people realise _where_ they make the isk in a gathering-production-selling chain, and making them understand the differences and how important they are, should be simple. But its not. Then of course there is the gameplay value. If you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY love to sell ships, by all means turn your 120 mil mined mins into a 100 mil ship and sell it. You will lose isk - but be happy. Thats all good by me. :)
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:27:00 - [23] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 15/06/2007 19:30:19 Edited by: Trak Cranker on 15/06/2007 19:27:01 Edited by: Trak Cranker on 15/06/2007 19:26:10 Originally by: darkmancer Edited by: darkmancer on 15/06/2007 19:23:30 Originally by: Cypherous someone told me he makes a killing building freighters. hundreds of millions profit a pop. i say "oh nice, how do you do that". he buys the bpcs (the only costs he considered) and mines his butt off (he could just sell the minerals)... actual costs from the bpcs + opportunity costs from minerals that could be sold directly = costs to compare vs income from selling the finished freighter. i think that's enough smartassing for today from my side sry There's other ways to look at thing besides the cold hard facts. They don't take into account things like by setting himself such a big goal with defined targets (x trit,y pyer), that he mines harder and for longer then he would normally? You mine a load of mins and sell them on the market. Big deal who cares. Actually building something like a capital ship is quite impressive, and a moral booster. I could make a load of isk trading on the market, i don't, why? like alot of other players i can't be arsed. Eve's not a job, it's not based on how much isk you earn/hr, even though a healthy wallet does help enjoyment. Yeah, but what Cypherous is saying, is that his "someone" should at least realise that he is perhaps not making a killing selling freighters - but on mining. But you are totally correct. If the guy enjoys building and selling freighters - thats what he should do. But he should now where the isk is made doing it too.
max bygraves	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:29:00 - [24] I value my time at nothing, Therefor it is free.
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. no you are wrong. Its still free because you got it for nothing. It has a value but it still came to you for free.
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:32:00 - [26] Ratting loot and the mins therefrom are free if: 1: You collect and salvage as you go, adding no time to ratting. 2: you normally wouldn't bother picking it up. 3: you have run out of sell orders Otherwise, its worth the value of the mins and or the modules minus the tax and isk value you put on the time taken to maintain the sell orders. I personally just build stuff with it, which I give away or use myself. More value to me to have a few BS ready built in difficult-to-reach space so I dont have to bother transporting them through chokepoints etc than a shedload of slow moving sell orders for stuff that I dont really want anyway.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:33:00 - [27] Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. no you are wrong. Its still free because you got it for nothing. It has a value but it still came to you for free. I think Ray Mc was more thinking in terms of "if he then uses it - you cannot think of it as free". But you are ofc correct, strictly speaking.
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Akita T It's only free if you suddendly find it in your hangar and you did absolutely nothing to get it there. It's not even free then, it costs you what you could sell it for. no you are wrong. Its still free because you got it for nothing. It has a value but it still came to you for free. I think Ray Mc was more thinking in terms of "if he then uses it - you cannot think of it as free". But you are ofc correct, strictly speaking. ah true also, didnt think of it like that.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.15 19:37:00 - [29] MMORPG time is worth nothing. If your time were worth anything, you wouldn't be spending it in a video game.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.15 20:03:00 - [30] Exactly why tech1 ship/module manufacturing is a lose. The barrier is low enough that people who can't make sane ROI (return on time investment in this case) decisions can participate. No sense in moaning about it, just take advantage of it if you can, and ignore it if you can't.

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