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tiewan
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Posted - 2007.06.19 10:28:00 -
[61]
Most stuff I could care less about, but what really makes me mad is the recent rumors of the devs having access to a beer BPO at CCP HQ and not sharing it.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.19 10:44:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Galya Tuvern
...constructive criticism and creative solutions are things that will benefit everyone.
"constructive criticism" and "Harrassment labled as constructive criticism" are not the same thing.
Endless rehashing of a subject is not an intellectual exercise to arrive at the truth, its a test of endurance. There has been no new information on this subject for a long time, and the old information is resolved (to the great unhappiness of some who have axes to grind....)
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Obivan Efa
The Machines
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Posted - 2007.06.19 10:49:00 -
[63]
Quote:
No RL auditing is needed IMHO. And BTW - the cost for that process - where do u think the money is coming from? Right - our subscription money. So it's either less money to invest in Eve improvements ("we had to postpone the next round of hardware upgrades as we had to budget several million for a 3 month audit") or higher subscriptions. Feel free to have your own priorities - on my list audits don't even appear on the list.
Do you know how your money spendings flow in CCP?
If there are an opportunity that they cheat you for your money then you have a right to know it and check it. It is your right for fair independent revision.
There are a lot of players that suspect CCP in cheatings and they have a good reason for that. If everyone of them will donate extra 1$ for revision instead of whinning - that will be enough... a good thing if CCP will pay for an equal part of audition costs.
____________________________
Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry |
Galya Tuvern
Gallente
Momentum.
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.06.19 11:02:00 -
[64]
Originally by: End Solution
have the community ever been told how much isk was made...if ccp could clearly say.. this much isk was made people would see that it was nothing, if any at all.
If by "nothing at all" you mean to imply that the amount of benefit is relevant to whether or not an action was ethical, I think I have to disagree with you. Are we to say that if someone embezzles a mere 100,000$ in a multi-million dollar industry that the person's action were acceptable?
This is less about how much benefit was received and by whom, and more about ethical behavior and check and balances; clearly CCP thinks that its own check and balance system should be open to public scrutiny in some form and CCP should be applauded for that step in the right direction.
CCP, a 'gaming' industry company, is doing what many other companies in various industries have already done...trying to come up with mechanisms which provide ways to confront issues relating to unethical behavior.
Regardless of what CCP may or may not have done, it makes me proud to be a member of the Eve Community and to be involved with a company such as CCP. A company that is willing to take that first step in an industry where it seems (as a whole) few care about what occurs behind the scenes** as long as they can log on and WTFPWN one another.
**especially if caring will require any extra effort on their parts including paying an extra dollar or two...skip one bottle of Pepsi or don't buy the latte and there is your $2. Understanding that certain people are economically disadvantaged; however, there are mechanisms for this such as buying legit gtc.
Don't ask me I'm not the keeper of the Mommy Milk! |
Galya Tuvern
Gallente
Momentum.
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.06.19 11:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Originally by: Galya Tuvern
...constructive criticism and creative solutions are things that will benefit everyone.
"constructive criticism" and "Harrassment labled as constructive criticism" are not the same thing.
Endless rehashing of a subject is not an intellectual exercise to arrive at the truth, its a test of endurance. There has been no new information on this subject for a long time, and the old information is resolved (to the great unhappiness of some who have axes to grind....)
I cannot agree that all of the posts in this thread are harassing, nor are they all endless rehashing. I will agree that some people have a difficult time removing their thoughts from perceived, or real, injustices to see the bigger picture here...but to say that discussion should end on a topic that clearly people and CCP are deeply concerned with seems slightly premature and insensitive to those voices in the community that would like to have an intellectual discussion on this topic.
Although I am wondering if we are talking about the same subject matter here, you indicate "there has been no new information this subject" but CCP's announcement that they will have oversight is recent; so perhaps you are directing your comments toward the events that lead to CCPs announcement only...and I misunderstood that this was your intent? Those issues are, admittedly, "old news" for many.
Perhaps if the thread had been started under different auspices it might be more palatable?
On a different note...does anyone know how to stop the italics from coming up when you quote something that is italicized? I cannot see any that could be removed. 
Don't ask me I'm not the keeper of the Mommy Milk! |
Terazuk
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Posted - 2007.06.19 17:39:00 -
[66]
*nods Sympathetically*
Can I have your stuff?
~
"*BANG* you're dead!"
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Glengrant
Minmatar
TOHA Heavy Industries
FROST Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:20:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Obivan Efa
Quote:
No RL auditing is needed IMHO. And BTW - the cost for that process - where do u think the money is coming from? Right - our subscription money. So it's either less money to invest in Eve improvements ("we had to postpone the next round of hardware upgrades as we had to budget several million for a 3 month audit") or higher subscriptions. Feel free to have your own priorities - on my list audits don't even appear on the list.
Do you know how your money spendings flow in CCP?
Nope. And why would that matter? Audits do cost money. The money CCP makes comes from our subscriptions. Is any of that really in dispute?
Originally by: Obivan Efa
If there are an opportunity that they cheat you for your money then you have a right to know it and check it. It is your right for fair independent revision.
So what? I'm saying I'm against of any such right (assuming there is one given the laws applicable) being execrcised 'cause it's a waste of *our* money.
Originally by: Obivan Efa
There are a lot of players that suspect CCP in cheatings and they have a good reason for that.
I disagree. I have yet to see "good reason" in this whole debate.
I know of 1 (*one*) confirmed case of 1 (*one*) CCP employee cheating. Which is very annoying - but also very far from the company cheating all the time and I don't think that case really affected the game overall.
Beyond that there is a lot of assuming and jumping to conclusions, over-generalizing and unfounded accusations.
It's a bunch of people (aka a mob) quoting each other and generating a lot of text and excitement about nothing much that has a factual basis.
Originally by: Obivan Efa
If everyone of them will donate extra 1$ for revision instead of whinning - that will be enough... a good thing if CCP will pay for an equal part of audition costs.
1) Those people won't pay $1 each - the logistics alone would be silly.
2) Economics 101 - companies *never* pay a thing. Customerrs do. All income companies make is from the money we pay them (well excecpt for publicly subsidizued ones - and then it's the tax payers - again us in the end). It's *always* the customer who pays.
A company that spends money it doesn't make by sales is called bancrupt.
Within some limits investors can take a hit on their profits of course - but even that is usualy only short-term and will be recovered ASAP from future income.
And anyway an audit won't find a thing. Even if CCP is a corrupt entity out to destroy it's own business by cheating (a silly idea to start with really) - they would simply behave super-clean during the audit period. Past logs can be manipulated or lost. An audit *will* find that CCP does not cheat (no surprise to me) mainly because I do believe that they don't - but also even if they do. Plus it won't stop the tinfoil crowd of accusing them of cheating anyway. They obviously cheated the audit. You can't win against somebody who assumes conspiracies to exist without hard facts.
Waste of money!
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Caztra Tor
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:48:00 -
[68]
I am glad to see this thread remains so healthy.
In any event, the only solution is to kill Bob and his entire family. Bob is just one guy right? 
Note: There is Bob, their friends, and everyone else. If your not trying to kill Bob you don't care about Eve.
Yeeee Hawwww
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Gorefacer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:04:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I think at this point most players don't give a crap and want to get back to playing the game.
I also agree. I can't possibly enjoy the game of EVE while having to avoid clicking on topics involving this subject on the EVE forums that have nothing to do with playing the game in the first place. Somebody save me!
Incidentally I agree again with responding to biased unfounded generalizations with other biased unfounded generalizations.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Gwyneth
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:39:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Glengrant
1) Those people won't pay $1 each - the logistics alone would be silly.
2) Economics 101 - companies *never* pay a thing. Customerrs do. All income companies make is from the money we pay them (well excecpt for publicly subsidizued ones - and then it's the tax payers - again us in the end). It's *always* the customer who pays.
A company that spends money it doesn't make by sales is called bancrupt.
Within some limits investors can take a hit on their profits of course - but even that is usualy only short-term and will be recovered ASAP from future income.
And anyway an audit won't find a thing. Even if CCP is a corrupt entity out to destroy it's own business by cheating (a silly idea to start with really) - they would simply behave super-clean during the audit period. Past logs can be manipulated or lost. An audit *will* find that CCP does not cheat (no surprise to me) mainly because I do believe that they don't - but also even if they do. Plus it won't stop the tinfoil crowd of accusing them of cheating anyway. They obviously cheated the audit. You can't win against somebody who assumes conspiracies to exist without hard facts.
Waste of money!
Your argument is too elegant. I will have to don the tinfoil hat and avoid posts you write in the future.
I do agree with you. One ccp member cheating once, and then trying to transfer that directly to ccp as a whole. It would be identical to me saying that since I found one post on the forums that doesn't portray intellectual capacity of a fly, then all posts on the forums must be clever!
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