My findings is that the Deciples of Ston have a high probability of being involved in republic military operations. However there is no evidence of direct involvement with combat operations.

It should be remembered that it is illegal to take slaves from non-Amarrian sources.

While slated to be a completely private and benign act, this has obviously grown far larger than I conceived. Still, based on how this has turned out, it is my duty to report my findings in regard to the D-Ston and potential terrorist links.

The investigation of the Deciples of Ston was to determine whether or not the Deciples of Ston where, in fact, a humanitarian organization, or a republic military agency. Not being permitted to directly inspect their facilities in any way, I am forced to use only the information that I have available to me. Having reviewed the evidence found thus far I am ready to make my conclusions on the matter.

Deciples of Ston have refused inspection,
Garnered support from hostile Republic forces,
Preformed multiple breaches of proticol resulting in placing Empire personal in risk,
Have conducted themselves greatly opposed to the Empire.
Holding slavers for crimes which are not illegal in the empire.
And with no clear or redeemable evidence to the contrary...

My findings is that the Deciples of Ston have a high probability of being involved in republic military operations. However there is no evidence of direct involvement with combat operations.


Follows is my recommended course of action to be taken by loyal Empire forces against the Deciples of Ston to weed out hostile forces from Empire space.

It is under my oppinion that the D-ston operations should be haulted within empire space and ships and facilities to be impounded for further investigation. Due to the non-combatant nature of the Deciples of ston, crew death is not advised.

Proper procedure for engaging a D-ston asset is to immobilize it and strip it down to its hull. During this time the pilot should be given the chance to abandon ship. In which case his crew shall be taken into prisoner and questioned. Failing abandoning ship, rights to destroy should be permitted.

Of higher importance is the D-ston facilities, including a prison facility of Amarrian citizens. I would recommend disabling the command center of their facilities and taking all personal on planet as prisoner. Any accurate information about the whereabouts of these facilities shall be rewarded.

It should be remembered that it is illegal to take slaves from non-Amarrian sources. Prisoners whom are found to be innocent of criminal involvement should be released after which time this concludes.

This concludes my investigation report and my recommendation of action against the D-Ston.

For God and Empire
Thgil Goldcore
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

"Run and you shall be crushed. Stand and you will fall. Kneel and you will be saved"

this does not look good for pie.

... Having reviewed the evidence ...

... However there is no evidence ...

If my investigation was carried out to the fullest extent possible. There is a large chance of error, granted, but with no evidence of their innocence, I am forced to conclude biased on what information I do have.

I gave him our demands. Made sure our warnings where clear. Gave plenty of chances to consider his decisions and discuss the matter with me. They made their choice and I intend on following up on what I have established I would do. They have decided to conduct themselves as an enemy to the empire, and thus will be treated as such.

If my investigation was carried out to the fullest extent possible. There is a large chance of error, granted, but with no evidence of their innocence, I am forced to conclude biased on what information I do have. If, in time, they are found to have been innocent the entire time, I will not be apologetic... This was THEIR choice. If they did not wish to withstand the outcome of their choices, they shouldn't have made them in the first place.

Also, I find it amusing that those who are most against this also are the people who are likely receiving weapons or crew from these people.

I gave him our demands. Made sure our warnings where clear. Gave plenty of chances to consider his decisions and discuss the matter with me. They made their choice and I intend on following up on what I have established I would do. They have decided to conduct themselves as an enemy to the empire, and thus will be treated as such.

If my investigation was carried out to the fullest extent possible. There is a large chance of error, granted, but with no evidence of their innocence, I am forced to conclude biased on what information I do have. If, in time, they are found to have been innocent the entire time, I will not be apologetic... This was THEIR choice. If they did not wish to withstand the outcome of their choices, they shouldn't have made them in the first place.

Also, I find it amusing that those who are most against this also are the people who are likely receiving weapons or crew from these people.

[...]

Also, I find it amusing that those who are most against this also are the people who are likely receiving weapons or crew from these people.

As laid out prior, and apparently ignored. The mere idea of having hostile forces take part of the investigation is absurd.

However I can't help but notice that the recommended course of action is, by another name, called piracy.

who are proven enemies of a certain government

I'm a little confused. As far as I was aware, the Disciples of Ston already agreed to letting Ms. Goldcore visit for investigative purposes, and yet here she says they refused her?

Is having some impartial observers along that much of an issue?

There would have been no issue with impartial observers, but pilots who are current war targets or considered KOS can hardly be described as that.

So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.

..it feels like a profound waste of Imperial resources..

So find some who aren't? There must be someone, somewhere who neither hates, nor supports either the Amarr or the Minmatar? I mean, hell, use the Sisters if you need too.

Thgil, might I suggest proofreading your reports before presenting them to your superiors, or publishing said reports in a public venue where millions will read them. A little professionalism would go a long way.

It would appear that the Disciples are not simply rescuing slaves discarded or otherwise released by their owners, but that they are also obtaining slaves from battlefields. Whilst we appreciate the efforts of the Disciples to rescue them, these slaves remain the property of their owners, and they should not have been transferred out of the Empire. Indeed, ideally efforts should have been made to return them to their owners. Should any such slaves have left the Empire, it would indicate that the Disciples have in fact been running what I believe some people might call an "underground monorail" carrying slaves away from their rightful owners.

As such, we request a full manifest of all slaves acquired by the Disciples since their formation to be made available to the public. This manifest must include the details of where and how each slave was acquired and their current location. This manifest should be published within seven days.

Furthermore, we expect the Disciples to arrange for the return to PIE of all slaves recovered from PIE vessels within fourteen days.

Failure to comply with these requests may result in further action from PIE.

***TRANSMISSION ENDS***

Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.

Surely Captain Todako, complying with the Admiral's previous request as to details of which members of PIE you have found to abandon civilians in cans is at least acceptable. Without going into specific details, I'm sure the Admiral will be greatful for the information to conduct his own in house investigations.

Remember what I was telling Captain Goldcore about negotiation? You could give a little there at no personal risk to yourself, your corporation or the people in your care.

Pay close attention to what Captain Blake is demanding and suggesting; that these rescue people should be returned to their "rightful owners." He is demanding their "present locations." This isn't about investigating abandonment on the part of PIE members. This is about what PIE member perceive as their "property rights." This is not a matter of negotiation and diplomacy. This is a matter of not violating our core values. Captain Blake says, "efforts should have been made to return them to their owners." This is anathema to who we are and we will do nothing that would assist anyone in doing the same. That is why this is not a matter of negotiation.

As to a manifest: Are you aware that the only record we have when we rescue former slaves is the name and information of the pilot transporting those individuals? The names of the original holders are unknown to us unless the rescued people choose to reveal it. We publicly publish those on our Wall of Shame. PIE may wish to contact those myriads of pilots if they wish to find the names of the original holders.

I do not know if any of them are members of PIE.

Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.

Your earlier post suggested otherwise, I advise being certain of such facts before using them here. PIE take allegations such as this very seriously.



I'm aware. You can still deny him that while at least assisting his internal investigation into the actions of PIE Pilots as an appeasement.

The PIE directorate will study this report and its recommendations.

Then hear it from a neutral point of view. You're being an idiot and digging your hole further.



It's not absurd they spectate, you just don't like it. Huge difference there, and you've failed to give any logical reason as to why it'd be so crazy a notion.

OK, I'll try to be as clear as I can. The information about where former slaves came from comes from the following sources.

1. Former slave testimonies
2. Other pilots who have transported rescued former slaves to us

We only have the word of others to go by. I am sorry if I was unclear about that. Anyone can check the names of the pilots we list on the Wall of Shame. I do not know if any of them are members of PIE. Below is also a list of pilot name given to us by another Capsuleer who has been active in rescuing former slaves. Feel free to look them up. Again, look at Captain Blake's orignal post and note that his concern is not in investigating his own people but trying to return their slaves to them.

[list of names]

So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.

Also, I still want to see a full manifest of all slaves received by your corporation produced by you in the interests of transparency. Where slaves have been handed to you by another capsuleer, that capsuleer should be named, so that what you claim can be verified.

So you decided to allege that PIE officers had been abandoning slaves to their deaths without first checking your facts? I think that you owe every single member of PIE a public apology for your false and egregious accusation.

I do however know that many of the names on the list here, were Minmatar.

And several, enough for it to be noticeable, are none other that Tribal Liberation Force pilots.

Let me take a wild guess. You didn't actually check anything - you just made something up on the spot to score some petty propaganda points on IGS?

Well, nope, I did not make it up.

Perhaps we have been unclear about our Matriculation program. When we say "Matriculation Program" that is short for "Emancipation and Matriculation Program." You will see this if you research the beginning announcement of the opening of our first Center. We rescue "former slaves" wherever they may be found and from whomever.

The Disciples of Ston unequivocally state that NO ONE IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING period! When we rescue and emancipate these individuals we ARE returning them to their rightful owners, THEMSELVES!

Now, as of yet, we have not directly rescued any former slaves from battlefields, but we hope to do so in the future. We have received rescued slaves from other pilots who have done so, and we have receive testimony from rescued slaves of their work on board battle vessels.

In answer to your demands to provide detailed information on the former slaves we have rescued, the answer is NO. We will die and our spirits will return to the Maker before we ever allow those we rescue to return to slavery.

You said, that you rescue them wherever they may be found. However, you must understand, that taking slaves form 'wherever' IF they are still someone's property, and that someone DIDN'T give you permission to take these slaves, is considered a THEFT. Even if you take them in territories where slaves are illegal cargo, this is still a THEFT.

From my point of view, theft is one of the most severe and dirtiest forms of crime. Thieves took others property, who worked hard to acquire it, and thieves don't have balls to fight owners like pirates do. I think that all thieves deserve capital punishment wherever they are detected, and I am ready to put an end to them even if I violate law myself by doing it.

If you in fact have any slaves, that you took from PIE and they are requesting to return them, you MUST compensate. Even if you gave slaves to their 'rightful owner' (freed), you still took some property from their previous owner, that you MUST return. If you can't return slaves, then pay their EXACT average market price or pay with other goods of equal value if previous owner will accept these goods as payment.

Even if you didn't steal yourself, but merely accepted stolen property from someone else, you MUST compensate it for previous owner, by either returning stolen goods or paying with money/other goods.

Captain Kim has accused the Disciples of Ston of theft. Guilty as charged. The majority of the death cans from which we rescue people are yellow and the contents legally owned by those we list on the wall of shame. In fact, we most often note when the can was blue to indicate that the pilot wished the people to be perhaps rescued. Captain Kim would like to see us dead. We have been destroyed often and podded quite a few times too. I noted your fondness of capitalizing THEFT. If it makes you feel any better here goes. The Disciples of Ston are THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES THIEVES! Yep, we steal former slaves from death cans, rescuing them from death and emancipating them. As Ston used to be so fond of saying in the beginning days "I am a Thief."

That's good to hear. Why don't you provide actual numbers?

Because the actual numbers aren't in my possession. They're in the possession of my corpmate, "Ritual Sacrifice", who obtained them from her own logs, and also information seized from the Evil space nun Darina Rea, when Ritual Sacrifice visited them on a diplomatic errand.

So, you are destroyed often and podded. Well, it's a fitting end for a thief.

cheap propaganda post.

Seven days have passed, and the Disciples of Ston have completely failed to co-operate with my perfectly reasonable request.

Disciples of Ston pilots are hereby advised that PIE officers are now authorised to fire upon their vessels.

Seven days have passed, and the Disciples of Ston have completely failed to co-operate with my perfectly reasonable request.

Disciples of Ston pilots are hereby advised that PIE officers are now authorised to fire upon their vessels.

And you call us terrorists.

What galls me is that PIE is not only allowing but authorizing the attack of unarmed and/or lightly defended civilian vessels.

Guess we know where they stand on morality now, don't we?

What galls me is that PIE is not only allowing but authorizing the attack of unarmed and/or lightly defended civilian vessels.

Guess we know where they stand on morality now, don't we?

In the interests of stimulating debate, I point out that Bestowers and other similar vessels carrying people and goods between stations in Amarr space are also Unarmed or Lightly Defended Civilian vessels.

And are occasionally attacked by persons who do not consider these attacks to be immoral.

Including the Tribal Liberation Force.

The TLF has a fair number of 'flyboys' that just want to pad their flight logs. So does the Empire. So does the Caldari State. Frell, even the Gallente have that problem. Nobody's perfect.

You know what we call pilots that raid shipping convoys, though?

Pirates.

Or possibly mercenaries. In the end, I suppose it all comes down to who pays the bills.

My point is that an unprovoked attack on a civilian vessel for the purpose of interfering with legitimate trade and business interests is piracy. Are we going to hold PIE to a lesser standard that we would any other capsuleer in that regard? Are they somehow above the law when it comes to firing on unarmed ships?

If you take that argument as a given, where does it stop? Are we going to start unilaterally executing civilians in the streets of our cities, simply for being suspected of subversive behavior?

In the interests of stimulating debate, I point out that you have now indicated that attacking Bestowers engaged in the legitimate trade of humans and related business interests is Piracy.

And thus, you are calling e.g. Electus Matari who do or did such things, Pirates.

Edit: I also will point out, in the interest of stimulating debate, that numerous civilians have been executed in the streets of your cities for being suspected of "subversive behaviour".

Such as those poor Starkmanir and other refugees who were beaten to death for "un-minmatar activities", i.e. being religious.

I apologize for any unfavorable comparisons I might have created.

What I'm trying to say is that if we're to alllow PIE to run roughshod over anyone who displeases them, then they have no right to complain when someone decides to return the favor. Regardless of whether our hypothetical Bestowers are capable of shooting back, killing civilians that for moral reasons won't shoot back isn't only dishonorable, it's cowardly.

In the interests of stimulating debates, I point out that if "we" are to allow e.g. various Minmatar persons to run roughshod over e.g. Imperial Human Resources, then "they" have no right to complain when Someone decides to take action against Someone Else.

I am reasonably sure that various persons have fired on Imperial Human Resources flagged civilian ships. Bestowers and such.

I consider the debate reasonably stimulated. Enjoy.

All I'm saying is that the Disciples have not taken an active role in any kind of combat duty against the Empire, and attacking a neutral target has little to do with 'protecting the Empire'.

Thievery of property counts as an act of aggression and combat, yes?

Agression? Possibly. Stealing could be considered an inherently aggressive action. However, I don't consider what the Disciples are doing to be 'theft', for the primary reason that the holder has willingly discarded unwanted property.

Firstly, the Disciples have failed to provide any evidence that all of the slaves in their possession were gathered in this way.

Secondly, simply coming across slaves in a jetcan is not in itself indicative that they were willingly abandoned by their legal owner.

The Disciples of Ston have kept quite an extensive list on this very forum that outlines the results of their rescue operations. Wherever possible, the Disciples have attempted to communicate with the person who discarded the can and verify that ti was an intentional 'dumping' (and at least one pilot has openly admitted that her slaves were dumped in favor of a crate of munitions).

If their list were that extensive, they would have had no difficulty in complying with my request.

The Disciples attempted to communicate privately and resolve any issues that were preventing an inspection of their facilities from going forward.

In my view one does not attempt to communicate privately by publishing confidential messages for all to see.

We refused to compromise?

We started off by wanting to inspect their facilities.

When this was unacceptable to them without the presence of terrorists, we offered them the presence of neutral observers.

When this was still unacceptable to them we offered to forget about the inspection and instead asked for a manifest.

And they still refused.

We've done little but compromise during this whole affair.

They have been given every opportunity to defend themselves, but they have continually refused. And now it would appear that they are even refusing to speak in public about this despite originally insisting that this was how they wanted things to proceed.

Clearly they have something nefarious to hide.

I operate within Imperial space yet i never recall receiving a search order from PIE, is this because you prefer to go against those that cant defend themselves?

I've been reading through here and while I (of course) agree with my comrades, I have an entirely different point to raise.


Not to doubt the incredible capabilities of PIE Inc, but shouldn't this be left to the MIO? Or do you doubt your own government's prowess in investigating even capsuleers? I'm quite certain if the Disciples of Ston were breaking Imperial law they'd have been arrested, kicked out of Empire space, or at least added to the Amarr Imperial Navy's kill-on-sight list.

Perhaps by doing less you can do more.

So you'd be quite happy for me to go into Republican space and do pretty much anything I liked as long as the Minmatar authorities didn't object?

If you did something illegal (such as human trafficking) the Fleet and RSS would come down on you with swift Matari speed. If you're just fetching a bottle of Chest Wound I don't think they'd mind, though your status as an Imperial militiaman would still result in justice being dealt.

But remember, Ston and gang are pacifists. What real crimes have they commited as compared to the actual outlaw gangs you really should be fighting?

If you did something illegal (such as human trafficking) the Fleet and RSS would come down on you with swift Matari speed. If you're just fetching a bottle of Chest Wound I don't think they'd mind, though your status as an Imperial militiaman would still result in justice being dealt.

But remember, Ston and gang are pacifists. What real crimes have they commited as compared to the actual outlaw gangs you really should be fighting?

Those outlaws are the friends of the Militia, Rek... as evinced by the 9 or so outlaw, non-militia carriers the 24th IC called to their aid during the battle at the bunker in Siseide.

Morality and legality mean whatever the good Admiral wants them to mean at the moment he utters the word. No more. No less.

I fail to see what being a pacifist has to do with this. I imagine that you'd still be pretty angry if someone stole your property but did so without violence.

Anyway, removal of another's property without permission (aka theft) is one crime that springs to mind. Receiving stolen goods is another.

And by the way, setting one corporation red does not prevent us from opposing what you describe as "actual outlaw gangs."

Keep walking around with your head high and a self-endowed sense of importance and authority. The Ultimate Authority will lay you low and humble.

I would have expected the Disciples to be more vocal on this topic.....and yet we have not heard fromthem for several days now. This is very uncharacteristic of them, as they seem to love to blather on ad nauseum at the drop of a hat. What has changed??? Why the sudden silence? What are they up to?

I would humbly suggest that the matriculation centres be put under ongoing and covert observation, as the disciples are so fond of saying they (the centres) are run by their own councils.....what is stopping them from the councils - in the spirit of self-determination - have not chosen to arm and prepare to fight any effort by Amarrian authorities to inspect them?

Poor form, a bit of simple forum reading would answer that question for you.

As far as I know, their vow of silence does not extend to private communications. They could easily take measures to resolve this.

But I've heard nothing from them. Their silence speaks volumes.

It appears that they're perfectly happy to hide behind their Shaokorite shills, which doesn't do anything to dispel the idea that they're little more than a front organisation for an underground monorail.

I'm quite happy for further diplomacy to happen, but as I've already said the silence from the Disciples speaks volumes.

We refused to compromise?

We started off by wanting to inspect their facilities.

When this was unacceptable to them without the presence of terrorists, we offered them the presence of neutral observers.

When this was still unacceptable to them we offered to forget about the inspection and instead asked for a manifest.

And they still refused.

We've done little but compromise during this whole affair.

They have been given every opportunity to defend themselves, but they have continually refused. And now it would appear that they are even refusing to speak in public about this despite originally insisting that this was how they wanted things to proceed.

Clearly they have something nefarious to hide.

I'm quite happy for further diplomacy to happen, but as I've already said the silence from the Disciples speaks volumes.

Mmkay

Now I know they teach basic reasoning skills in Amarrian schools...my Holder sent me to one, after all.

I've been reading through here and while I (of course) agree with my comrades, I have an entirely different point to raise.


Not to doubt the incredible capabilities of PIE Inc, but shouldn't this be left to the MIO? Or do you doubt your own government's prowess in investigating even capsuleers? I'm quite certain if the Disciples of Ston were breaking Imperial law they'd have been arrested, kicked out of Empire space, or at least added to the Amarr Imperial Navy's kill-on-sight list.

In high sec. I'm sure that you'd be the first to agree with me that the authorities would only come down on criminals in areas where they patrol - ie high sec. Using basic logic, one knows that if the cops are not there to see you, they will not take action.