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Huge fleet battle = Huge lag? This can't be real!?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
N'olive Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:20:00 - [61] Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 09:21:40 Something is definately wrong when a fleet ENTERS a system. Last night in the 6T battle between coalition and the alliance, there was 270 ships doing things in the system, and there was no lag, very playable, not problem at all. When about 140 other ships entered the local, the game just fkin' DIED. Why is that adding 50% players changed the 0.1 sec lag into a 20 MINUTES FREEZE ? The point is not about TCF or UNL or BOB or whetever, this doesn't matter, the real deal is that fleet battles are ruining the gaming experience. Any little corporation can test it by themselves, gather 40 ships and move in a lonely system in the deep space with noone else around, and by simply traveling you'll get problems after each jump. This is definately not acceptable. CCP have to fix this or make it impossible to regroup more than 50 ships at the same place.
InAkTiV DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:20:00 - [62] I don't know much about server and that jazz, but would it be hard for ccp, to make like Ctrl + Alt + T/E, but taking more effect off ? like take killmails off for some time, dmg info, just all kinda things you can take off in a big fleet battle. I am sure many people would not mind a not so beautifull eve when they are in a 200 fleet battle,and get their killmails like one hour later, or something like that. Again i have no idea how serverside works, but i would think it would take some load off in a big fight ?? So make like a Big fleet setting option ??
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads? Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken. I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do. i don't think they can 'fix' the lag. imo they've hit a technological ceiling at present.
necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Lady Trade Edited by: Lady Trade on 27/06/2007 08:56:16 Quote: Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem. lol so now WE are the problem huh? Not CCP for not being capable to keep their promises to fix the damn lag for the last two years? No of course not... it's the stupid players that don't just wanna mine veld but actually would like to fight... yeah man... i really see your point. </irony> ofc u dont faceless alt, post with your main
Glengrant Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries FROST Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Kunelk I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable? Correction: Eve is not on a single server. It's on a single world cluster using many servers. I haven't kept up-to-date with the eve cluster design (there was a nice article years ago) - the DB server might be a single machine - which is probably the biggest bottleneck. And it's acceptable if a) things are done to improve that and b) it's not a constant and universal problem. Lot's of people can enjoy Eve outside Jita and big fleet blob actions. Don't assume that those who whine about the killer lag represent 100% of everything.
B orange	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:30:00 - [66] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52 Originally by: James Duar Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous. Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds. The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids. There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK. you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid. See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1 3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3 5 players on grid .... it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. Quadratic, not exponential. But still bad. It's factorial, (n-1)!, "n" beeing number of players.
necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:36:00 - [67] Originally by: N'olive Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 09:23:16 Something is definately wrong when a fleet ENTERS a system. Last night in the 6T battle between coalition and the alliance, there was 270 ships doing things in the system, and there was no lag, very playable, not problem at all. When about 140 other ships entered the local, the game just fkin' DIED. Why is that adding 50% players changed the 0.1 sec lag into a 20 MINUTES FREEZE ? The point is not about TCF or UNL or BOB or whoever, this doesn't matter, the real deal is that fleet battles are ruining the gaming experience, and since rev II even more. Any little corporation can test it by themselves, gather 40 ships and move in a lonely system in the deep space with noone else around, and by simply traveling you'll get problems after each jump. This is definately not acceptable. CCP have to fix this or make it impossible to regroup more than 50 ships at the same place. 270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen. the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way.
Trac3rt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:38:00 - [68] This de-sync problem is something new, it appears to be mainly a problem with the client (since not everyone on grid gets affected), although I expect server conditions do play their part, and can only be fixed with a relog. I was in 6T3, I warped to the cyno at 100KM in my covops and immediately locked up. My overview loaded a dozen BS before freezing, nothing changed on my screen for 20-30 minutes (could still see the cyno and first bubble) before I logged out. I did try warping out to a belt, but nothing appeared to have happened, when I logged back in later I was at the belt so obviously my command made it to the server but my client never acknowledged any more data. I have heard of similar things happening before RevII, but since the 'upgrade' things have been 10x worse. I cannot help but be reminded of the Dragon release where the node would crash if more than 20 people attempted to fight on-grid. I don't blame BoB for this, they rolled the dice and it came out in their favour. I do blame CCP for creating a game where 'rolling the dice' is the primary method of determining the outcome of larger battles. In the end, these fights are not determined by Skill, Tactics, SP, fittings or ships, but by which side lags out the least which is a pretty poor way to play a game I think. ___
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:39:00 - [69] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/06/2007 09:38:40 Originally by: Ambre Blanche Originally by: Icarius Originally by: Ambre Blanche the FC ordered us finally to relog. thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay. then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap. You really should improve your reading skills. Do you happen to know it's even become useful to you some day in real life? Our FC ordered to log out after we became VERY anxious about our ships, being unable to do a single thing for something like TWELVE minutes after the initial engagement. I don't care about lag. I care about lag that's choose a side. I think it's very strange. Don't you? Ambre. When you log off, then whatever resorces is allocated to you goes to those that stay in the field I would imagine. Lag chooses no sides. I guess you could say that their is a lot of brittish people in Bob, therefor we are more used to waiting in queues..... And if half the queue in front decides to wander away, do you think their place will be kept? -- Billion Isk Mission
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:42:00 - [70] Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again. There is a new lag/desync occurring since Rev2. I've had it in a 5 vs. 1 fight, a 1 vs. 1 fight and a 15 vs. 15 fight. Numbers alone don't cause it, but bigger number might raise the odds of it occuring. Your controls seem to get unresponsive, but in reality it can take up to a minute for your instruction to execute. But even if your instruction are being executed, your own client will not be properly updated. Strangely enough your client might perfectly update shots taken at you though, and you can see your shields or armor go down fairly smoothly. Relogging helps.

jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:44:00 - [71] Originally by: necronarcosis 270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen. the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way. Why do people here not understand the difference between lag and client desyncs? Since Rev2 there seems to be a major desync problem not related to warping or bumping but just being in space. It doesn't matter how long you wait the client isn't going to recover if you are desynced, as far as the server knows your just sitting in space getting blown up like a dumbass, you need to relog to force your client to get correct data from the server. The BoB pilots that jumpbridged into 6T3 had 100% fresh clients thanks to the session change from said jumpbridge. Is that so hard to understand?
Ambre Blanche ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:47:00 - [72] The message behind all those threads generated by this 15 minutes deadlock we got yesterday in 6T3I-L is very simple: "CCP stop lying to us". Either you can make fleet battle (300+ ships) enjoyable in EVE or either you can't. It's not a problem if you can't, we will play differently. But stop bull****ing us and the whole world with your "constant improvements", "next engine", and "Need for Speed Initiative". EVE is 3 years old and we are still losing tons of ships to client/server issues. Btw, locking all threads that are about one of the most important part of the game will not improve the problem at all. Ambre.
necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:49:00 - [73] Originally by: jeffb Originally by: necronarcosis 270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen. the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way. Why do people here not understand the difference between lag and client desyncs? Since Rev2 there seems to be a major desync problem not related to warping or bumping but just being in space. It doesn't matter how long you wait the client isn't going to recover if you are desynced, as far as the server knows your just sitting in space getting blown up like a dumbass, you need to relog to force your client to get correct data from the server. The BoB pilots that jumpbridged into 6T3 had 100% fresh clients thanks to the session change from said jumpbridge. Is that so hard to understand? im reading the ops post and other on lag, im not commenting on desync. but i belive it to be a part of the same problem tbh.
The Snowman Gallente Black Mithril Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:49:00 - [74] I doubt this problem would ever be resolved. No matter what optimisations they make, no matter how much hardware they throw at it. Truth is the calculations being made are astronomical (no pun intended) and the more eve advances and the more players start playing it will only get worse! - CCP can only hope to keep up with the current level growth. Just last night I was in a lvl4 mission, with a friend, I was tanking about 40 odd ships, we had 8 drones out and I was tractor beaming and salvaging at the same time... It was hideous. It just appears that Eve cant handle doing this many things at once! - regardless of the graphics engine. Is it acceptable?... well you have to measure that against your own satisfaction of playing Eve because it sure isnt going to change very much any time soon.
necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again. There is a new lag/desync occurring since Rev2. I've had it in a 5 vs. 1 fight, a 1 vs. 1 fight and a 15 vs. 15 fight. Numbers alone don't cause it, but bigger number might raise the odds of it occuring. Your controls seem to get unresponsive, but in reality it can take up to a minute for your instruction to execute. But even if your instruction are being executed, your own client will not be properly updated. Strangely enough your client might perfectly update shots taken at you though, and you can see your shields or armor go down fairly smoothly. Relogging helps. how many people were in system? just your gangs or were u in a busy area there is a huge difference
Lady Trade	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 - [76] yeah and if you're not able to give us lag free gameplay with more then 100 ppl in local then pls implement a system so that not more then 100 ppl can enter a system. and limit gang size accordingly etc. whats the sence of giving us 250 man gangs if you disconnect and de-sync as soon as there are 100 ppl in local? then rather forbid large ops al together and let us have small battles without lag (but that won't work as long as it's possible to simply bring in more and more friends to join the fray).
Gozmoth Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 - [77] Edited by: Gozmoth on 27/06/2007 09:52:10 A important thing : desyncing comes from buggy/faulty software, unlike lag. Desyncing can be prevented.
WiZZyWiGG Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 - [78] New thread needed to actually discuss the de-sync issue, this seems to be hung up on discussing lag more than anything? Or better yet send in a load of bug reports. ___________
getmoving	Posted - 2007.06.27 09:55:00 - [79] Originally by: Lady Trade yeah and if you're not able to give us lag free gameplay with more then 100 ppl in local then pls implement a system so that not more then 100 ppl can enter a system. and limit gang size accordingly etc. whats the sence of giving us 250 man gangs if you disconnect and de-sync as soon as there are 100 ppl in local? then rather forbid large ops al together and let us have small battles without lag (but that won't work as long as it's possible to simply bring in more and more friends to join the fray). i can see the traffic jams outside jita already
Doc Punkiller Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:01:00 - [80] I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test. In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure. The current situation is inacceptable.


Ivan Kirilenkov Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:05:00 - [81] Please keep accusations about lag choosing side on other accusations out of this thread. The forum is not the place to handle things like that, a petition to either the GM-team or the IA-department is. forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

necronarcosis Fury Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:11:00 - [82] Edited by: necronarcosis on 27/06/2007 10:10:15 Originally by: Doc Punkiller I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test. In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure. The current situation is inacceptable. are you joking? the dev team in eve is one of the most capable and respected teams in the whole mmo world. We all here understand that lag and other problems like desync are ruining people play, but theres simply put no quick fix to it. If they did do what you say eve would likely close because not many programmers/coders would know where to start if they were thrown in at the deep end with eve's setup.
Susan Acid Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:19:00 - [83] To the OP, Yes,Eve lags.A lot.It cannot support these large scale battles and afaik it has always been that way. I started playing this game when I read an article on Eve in PC Gamer magazine about 18 months ago.Do you know what the article was called?'The battle that broke the galaxy'.Not much has changed since then. I shall end with the similiar reply given to people who moan about Jita: Get out of 0.0 and stop complaining about lag.Stop trying to have fleet fights.It doesn't work.It won't ever work and you are dillusional if you think CCP or anybody else can make 300/400 man battles work. Anybody who goes into a 400 man lagfest expecting to have any sort of 'fun' needs their heads tested.
Bonita Ramirez Xenobytes Stain Empire	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov The forum is not the place to handle things like that, a petition to either the GM-team or the IA-department is. To get one more answer "According our server logs there are no problem"?
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:31:00 - [85] Like I said snip - don't discuss moderation on the forums. -Ivan K until you can solve your lag issues, make an official statement indicating "THIS GAME CANNOT BE PLAYED WHILE LARGE FLEETS ENGAGE IN COMBAT, PARTICIPATE IN SUCH AT YOUR OWN RISK" - Recruitment open again-
Lakedaimon Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:32:00 - [86] I read a lot of posts from TCF/Goons complaining about massive lags and desynchs while simultaneously claiming that BoB did not suffer from lag. Here's how the battle played out for me: When the order came to jump via the bridge, I selected the appropriate command from the right-click menu and nothing happened. I tried it a couple more times, then decided to wait. A few ships actually jumped, then suddenly a lot of ships managed to go through. I was still sitting next to the titan with nothing happening. After a couple of minutes my ship began that cloaking animation which indicates a jump. Seconds later a traffic control countdown window appeared. After 2 minutes and 30 seconds it disappeared, yet my ship still hadn't jumped. I went to get a drink. When I came back a few minutes later my ship had actually jumped but had not yet loaded the 6T system. It took about five more minutes for that to happen. I then tried for another four minutes to warp to the battle area. When that finally happened it took another ten minutes for the battle grid to load. All the while I could hear people on TS asking if anyone had actually loaded a grid and a few target calls. I started locking up targets, which took between two and four minutes. When I finally had something locked it took another five or so minutes for the guns to actually activate, and in a lot of cases I got a message stating that "you are unable to lock <insert name here> because your max lock range is <whatever> and he is actually <some absurdly high number> km away." During the battle someone did fire at me, I was taking damage and could see missile explosions on my ship but according to my overview nobody had me locked up. The lag got a little better as TCF forces were decimated. By the time every enemy ship had either warped out or been destroyed the game became nearly lag-free again, but at that point local had dropped to under 200 pilots. I'm guessing the fact that people were recalling drones and popping enemy leftovers helped as well. On the way back I had the weirdest thing ever happen to me, we jumped through the gate as a group, I got the traffic control thing again and after a few minutes I jumped into the neighboring system - only I didn't appear at the gate, but 900k off the gate at some random moon. Anyhow, claims that only the coalition forces suffered from horrible lag are unfounded. The whole battle was one gigantic lagfest for both sides and not a whole lot of fun, all things considered.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:32:00 - [87] Originally by: necronarcosis Edited by: necronarcosis on 27/06/2007 10:10:15 Originally by: Doc Punkiller I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test. In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure. The current situation is inacceptable. are you joking? the dev team in eve is one of the most capable and respected teams in the whole mmo world. We all here understand that lag and other problems like desync are ruining people play, but theres simply put no quick fix to it. If they did do what you say eve would likely close because not many programmers/coders would know where to start if they were thrown in at the deep end with eve's setup. Lol, both your comments are a bit nonsensical. CCP is undoubtedly doing the best they can, suggesting they go kill themselves is silly. On the other hand, we don't know how good they are in terms of coding network efficiency, do we? Maybe another team could do better, how would we ever know. About the lag, yeh its crappy when you lose ships to that, its generally extremely unpredictable and you cannot count on it happening or not happening in any way. If you desynced enmasse, I would just file reimbursement petitions and bugreports and leave it at that. Coming here to complain is fully understandable, but generally futile. Bugreports should be more productive, or maybe try to contact a developer through Kieron or on Sisi if you think there is a major new bug here. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you to see improvement directly, probably your best option shortterm is to try and work around the situation. As for fighting Bobbits, next time they jumpbridge their fleet in a situation like that, just disengage the hostile POS, go to a friendly POS and wait. From my experience BoB likes to open cynoes at 300 AU safespots, generally its not very smart to try and warp your fleet to it. Just disengage and wait for more favorable circumstances to engage their fleet. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:41:00 - [88] We had simular problems in S-E in the North a few days ago, client froze for me, after a while it worked again but I couldn't lock anything, same for half of the people on teamspeak. This was about a 100-150 vs 100-150 man battle, I'm not entirely sure 'cause of the lag/desync/whatever. Personally I don't enjoy fights over 50 vs 50 'cause you already start noticing the delays, even before rev II. Eve's endgame is entirely broken and I already changed my subscription interval from 3 months to 1 month, it just takes slightly more frustration to actually quit I guess.
Vyyrus Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:41:00 - [89] I was in the fleet battle at YA0 yesterday. The lag was awful. I could not move my ship anywhere even just in a little taranis trying to control fighters. It kept on skipping everywhere. My ship eventually got blown up by pos towers trying to warp out 5 times. This was one of my real experiences with a giant fleet battle and it was not good almost made me cancel my accounts still thinking about it.
Gozmoth Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.27 10:44:00 - [90] Originally by: Lakedaimon I read a lot of posts from TCF/Goons complaining about massive lags and desynchs while simultaneously claiming that BoB did not suffer from lag. Here's how the battle played out for me: Thanks for your explanation. For us, it was rather different. We will have videos soon to explain in depth how the eve connection/client was faulty, but in two words : we did not experienced lag but the game was looking frozen - in 10/20 minutes, we saw nothing, no ennemy moving, no kaboom, nothing. In fact : * the game was frozen from the client side * the fame was NOT frozen from the server side, jut laggy Thus all our orders was recorded by server (with lag), but we have never ever see a damn thing with the client. Unable to see what's going on.



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