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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Lysanne
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Posted - 2004.01.19 13:48:00 -
[1]
damage no longer leaking in your structure while your armor is still intact.
need translation ? |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 13:52:00 -
[2]
"damage no longer leaking in your structure while your armor is still intact."
... How's that different from how it is now?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.19 13:56:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
"damage no longer leaking in your structure while your armor is still intact."
... How's that different from how it is now?
Currently it's fully possible to go pop with large amounts of armor left. I've started taking structure damage with 60% armor left before.
Makes armor tanking insanely dangerous.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lysanne
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Posted - 2004.01.19 13:56:00 -
[4]
right, forgot to tell that even with 30% armor you dont take any struc damage.
need translation ? |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:00:00 -
[5]
"Currently it's fully possible to go pop with large amounts of armor left. I've started taking structure damage with 60% armor left before.
Makes armor tanking insanely dangerous."
Aye, i know... just the original description made it sound that the damage leak doesn't happen only as long as there's no armour breach at all ^^;
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:04:00 -
[6]
Cool! Might give armor tanking and armor upgrades more use 
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vf142rex
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:11:00 -
[7]
Thats better than when you used to take armor damage at 80% shields 
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Isiana
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:18:00 -
[8]
well, this could be very usefull for any who flies Amarr ships, to Armor tank their ship
Carebear|Me
Alts |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:31:00 -
[9]
This isn't gonna work out well, considering a single module can increase your HP by over 2000, and then you can boost your resists on top of that. Can we get Shield Extenders with similar stats/requirements then also?
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:37:00 -
[10]
"Can we get Shield Extenders with similar stats/requirements then also?"
Aye, would be nice. Currently it's:
1600 hp of armour for 800 MW and 60 tf
vs
500 hp of shield for 1250 MW and 100 tf
(the size difference nonwithstanding, try to find that much of free grid on Caldari ship with those few low slots they have :/
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:39:00 -
[11]
Quote:
This isn't gonna work out well, considering a single module can increase your HP by over 2000, and then you can boost your resists on top of that. Can we get Shield Extenders with similar stats/requirements then also?
what module gives you 2000 armour?
Also, it's about time armor worked properly.
.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:41:00 -
[12]
"what module gives you 2000 armour?"
1600mm Reinforced Titanium Plates I: 1920 hp
1600mm Reinforced Crystaline Carbonide Plates I: 2080 hp
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I: 2240 hp
dunno if any of those drops, though.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Valeria on 19/01/2004 14:53:12
This is REALLY not going to work out well. Killing a ship will take roughly 50% longer even without the uber armor boosters.
With damage leaking into structure the 1600mm armor platings were fairly balanced IMO. The more armor you had the longer your structure would last, so armor was still very useful. But since armor is solid matter, of course it would eventually wear down. A shield is energy and can thereby be replenished and sustained for aslong as you have power to do it.
Horrible, horrible change. Bad CCP. 
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Caya
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Posted - 2004.01.19 14:55:00 -
[14]
yes, they r dropping and i think their price will go up a lot now. This finaly makes sense to use them. (those 1600mm adders)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.19 15:04:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Edited by: Valeria on 19/01/2004 14:53:12
This is REALLY not going to work out well. Killing a ship will take roughly 50% longer even without the uber armor boosters.
With damage leaking into structure the 1600mm armor platings were fairly balanced IMO. The more armor you had the longer your structure would last, so armor was still very useful. But since armor is solid matter, of course it would eventually wear down. A shield is energy and can thereby be replenished and sustained for aslong as you have power to do it.
Horrible, horrible change. Bad CCP.
There are a couple of things not mentioned:
1) 1600mm Armor plating has a -15m/s speed modifier. On paper, it doesn't seem like much. But in usage, it's a large hit on an already slow ship when activiting AB/MWD.
2) Armor Repairers repair 1/2 as much armor hp as shield repairers repair shield hp. For 1/2 as much cap but take twice as long. I have Repair Systems 4 and a Large Armor Repairer still has a cycle time of over 10s. So a Large Armor Repairer regens 600 armor hp for 600 cap every 10 seconds. Which is more than enough time for repeated hits to armor.
Armor tanking does not work like shield tanking and a flat comparison isn't valid. 6 guns shooting on armor will strip a ship fast. Simply can't keep up with the incoming damage.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lysanne
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Posted - 2004.01.19 15:20:00 -
[16]
and remember armor repairers and armor resistance mods are low slot. cap regen mods (the 20% ones) are also.
so youre pretty ****ed.
1. your damn slow but have a lot of armor and not much grid left for weapons (1600mm plates)
2. you have nice resists and have no speed penalty (just resi mods)
3. you have cap regen because of cap power relays...ops
what do you think - is it cool to have 10 0000 armor but not enough cap to run a weapon or a repairer for a decent time ? and i dont have to mention here that youre a sitting duck doing so.
and remember you need 2 armor repairers to compensate xlarge shield booster + amplifier.
als long as cap power relays are low slots caldari ships (especially the scorp) has a huge advantage on shield tanking.
need translation ? |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 15:26:00 -
[17]
"Armor tanking does not work like shield tanking and a flat comparison isn't valid. 6 guns shooting on armor will strip a ship fast. Simply can't keep up with the incoming damage."
... Are those hits against 'bare' armour or one with multiple hardeners, though? I don't think many people bothered so far with armour hardening at all, so it might be quite different when they actually use some of those numerous low slots for that. o.O
(for reference -- was shooting armour-reinforced Megathron, using blaster cannons and explosive cruise missiles. By the time his structure collapsed he still had 40% armour left, and we were both running out of cap at that point... so if it wasn't for the structure, he'd win easily -- my shield hardeners would simply stop working, while reinforced armour doesn't use the cap so it'd still be effective against my weapons...)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.19 15:55:00 -
[18]
Quote:
"Armor tanking does not work like shield tanking and a flat comparison isn't valid. 6 guns shooting on armor will strip a ship fast. Simply can't keep up with the incoming damage."
... Are those hits against 'bare' armour or one with multiple hardeners, though? I don't think many people bothered so far with armour hardening at all, so it might be quite different when they actually use some of those numerous low slots for that. o.O
(for reference -- was shooting armour-reinforced Megathron, using blaster cannons and explosive cruise missiles. By the time his structure collapsed he still had 40% armour left, and we were both running out of cap at that point... so if it wasn't for the structure, he'd win easily -- my shield hardeners would simply stop working, while reinforced armour doesn't use the cap so it'd still be effective against my weapons...)
It's in the slot balance. Amarr might be a nightmare armor tanked but they're supposed to be. Tempest only has 6 lows. What you're describing is half my low slots with no repairer. Toss in a repairer and I've got 2 slots left for cap regen, tracking mods, damage mods or speed mods (to counter the -15m/s because it is that important to a MWD/AB).
Also my perspective may be a bit skewed. Minmatar ammo is designed to eat armor tanks. Titanium Sabot and Fusion ammo never leave my cargo hold  . Lasers are semi pooched on armor. Dunno about Hybrids. And I do know that multiple Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes won't get you the same resists as shield hardeners.
They may be passive but they're not as effective. Or to put it another way, I'd armor tank my Typhoon but wouldn't imagine doing so on my Tempest. Shield tanking would still be more effective than armor tanking because of the slot configuration.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:05:00 -
[19]
Speed isn't really an issue. With 5000 shields, 5000 structure and 20000 armor, there's no way you are going to die in a 1on1. Just log out if things aren't working out for you.
And forget about cruisers or frigates taking down battleships. They can just slowly creep up to the gate even if webified or once again log out.
Gay.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Lysanne
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Lysanne on 19/01/2004 16:12:35
2 things,
1600mm have a -15% speed nerf, not -15ms
thats huge when using mwd-abs
and there are active armor hardeners on chaos, same like shield hardeners only for low slot.
and - chaos is a test server. no one knows if this will ever go life (well, i hope it does, of course)
@valeria - i expect youre a caldari pilot
tons of slots for shield mods...4 low slots left for cap regen - no need for damage or tracking mods because you deliver dm with missiles - no need for cap at all
look...you call it *** - i call it imbalanced
need translation ? |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:13:00 -
[21]
Im still not convinced that armour tanking is feasible. Since the castor change to make armour repairers low slot items it actually hurt armour tanking. As an Amarr laser user, the great majority of those low slots need to go towards cap relays due to lasers high cap usage. There simply isn't room for additional armour plating, cap relays, armour repairers, and armour hardeners. Without the need for shield boosters and hardeners, those medium slots become almost useless. I'd prefer having the armour repairers moved back to medium slot for armour tanking.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Kovak
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:15:00 -
[22]
As someone who has been training armour based skills for a while this is great news for me :)
I do suspect it might be a bit overpowered but then I havn't tested it yet so I don't know. The change I think they should have made was to boost the hull repairers, at the moment you can probably keep your armour o.k but the bleed through on hull eventually gets you, even with a decent hull repairer your screwed they simply don't repair enough fast enough to keep up.
Perhaps either limiting the amount of bleedthrough damage to hull or boosting the hull repairers would be a good option, either way they allow you a fighting chance.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:18:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Cao Cao on 19/01/2004 16:21:44
Hmmm I actually kinda like damage leaking. Even damage leaking through shields would be more welcome ... more of a reason to train tac shield manipulation. though I do somewhat agree that maybe the leaking to structure is a bit extreme at the moment.
Honestly they need to tie penetration to the type of ammo you are using. Make the descriptions mean something - if you use titanium sabot, make it so the damage will have a higher probability of leaking through to structure.
I have no experience about armor tanking but it sounds kinda scary 
EDIT: maybe even just give damage types a certain percentage modifier of how likely it is to cause penetration. Thermal/explosive: neutral, kinetic: 25% more likely to penetrate, EM: 25% less likely to penetrate. Something like that, dunno.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:23:00 -
[24]
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 19/01/2004 16:26:24
One thing to bear in mind imho is that for a armor tank setup, all items, from plates resist mods, armor hardeners, and even repairers, all go on low slots. That is fine. However consider that their are med and low slot modules that boost shields.
I think this is being done as a precursor to armor piercing-shield piercing skills being released.
I've tried fitting 1600's on my tempest. It's a fitting nightmare, otoh, I'm was never prepared to give up that much offensive punch for a few k armor that you would blow up with 40% of it remaining anyway. Off to chao to try it out i guess.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:38:00 -
[25]
Quote:
@valeria - i expect youre a caldari pilot
tons of slots for shield mods...4 low slots left for cap regen - no need for damage or tracking mods because you deliver dm with missiles - no need for cap at all
look...you call it *** - i call it imbalanced
No, Caldari sucks. I fly a Tempest. Yes you can resist alot of damage on a Scorp but 4 cap relays is not enough to sustain even a large SB. Also, 4 missile launchers does ridicilous amounts of damage and can be countered with 2 M-12 launchers with defenders.
I will fear running into an Apocalypse with XL Booster, Shield amp, 1400's, and armor mods in low slots. He can kill you but you can't kill him.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Lysanne
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Posted - 2004.01.19 16:41:00 -
[26]
ProphetGuru is right. head to Chaos - test it !
need translation ? |
CopperTop
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Posted - 2004.01.19 17:10:00 -
[27]
Quote:
what module gives you 2000 armour?
Also, it's about time armor worked properly.
With the skill requirementa for 1600mm plating being a level 5 that gives 5% per level extra hitpoints stock standard 1600mm Reinforced Steel gives you 2000 armor per unit.
cheers |
CopperTop
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Posted - 2004.01.19 17:13:00 -
[28]
Quote:
what module gives you 2000 armour?
Also, it's about time armor worked properly.
With the skill requirement for 1600mm plating being a level 5 that gives 5% per level extra hitpoints stock standard 1600mm Reinforced Steel gives you 2000 armor per unit.
cheers |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.19 17:13:00 -
[29]
Ugh.. with cap relays and the beefier Apocolypse capacitator, Apocs are already nightmares to bring down with their shield tanking ability.
Now armor is getting even stronger?
Scary.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.01.19 17:16:00 -
[30]
Edited by: j0sephine on 19/01/2004 17:18:03
"With the skill requirementa for 1600mm plating being a level 5 that gives 5% per level extra hitpoints stock standard 1600mm Reinforced Steel gives you 2000 armor per unit."
... Does the Hull Upgrades skill affect also the armour plating, not just the base armour hp of the ship?
If so then... omg. 2700+ hp from the 'rare' 1600 plate. o.o;
(and there's Advanced Hull Upgrades skill possibly coming, too...)
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