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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.20 14:42:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jayad on 20/01/2004 15:00:55 At the moment using frigates to attack ôBattleship/Blackbirdö fleets is hopelessly impractical.
In order to make a successful attack, frigate commanders need exceptional organisation and tactics (Predominantly hit and run waves) just so their pilots donÆt die after the 5-10 sec window. The window being the bsÆs locking time....seriously limiting !!
Basically from my experience, the recent chances made to locking times are GREAT but still insufficient in regard to frigate aptness. Could more time be spend tuning ôTrackingö of big/small objects thus, a modifier be arranged to account for size.
That would make for more diverse engagements and would drive the ôBattleship/Blackbirdö fleets to have increased frigate support.
Thank you
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fras
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Posted - 2004.01.20 15:22:00 -
[2]
I think tracking is about right now with frigs being so fast with mwd's. The only thing left is some kind of fighting chance of avoiding/disabling drones.
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.20 15:37:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jayad on 20/01/2004 15:43:37 yeah i know, it just my frustration with frigates, i lov frigates but the recent frig march was embarissing. I would like to see battles fought with more "Starwars" mechanics where frigates can harass more efficiently.
tbh i dont think another modifier for object size would be too disabling for battleships but will help frigates to survive longer.
J
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JackDonkey
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Posted - 2004.01.20 22:22:00 -
[4]
something that may be cool is if you could have a "critical failure" causing all targets to become unlocked. Like in Fallout when you'd have a critical failure and break you arm.
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Sequin
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Posted - 2004.01.21 03:29:00 -
[5]
As was stated in a previous post, allowing frigates to target a ships modules or subsystems would give them a huge boost in usefulness.
^A Raem Civre Original EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original. [i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork! b] We are evil exploiters! |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.21 05:09:00 -
[6]
Here are the pitfalls of frigate PvP.
First of all, only frigates that are capable of using cruise missles, can scratch a battleship, even then, they don't exactly do much damage at all sine their DoT is pathetic.
A frigate with a MWD should be able to evade cruise missles and large turrets however here's the problem..
DRONES, drones kill frigates so fast, a frigate that closes within 10km of a Battleship, is DEAD. Drones make it impossible for a frigate to close in.
Technically speaking, a frigate with turrets is only good against a battleship if it can get under 5km and start blasting away, but with every battleship using heavy drones, how is this possible?
Frigates are good at hit and run and raiding against stuff like industrials, frigates are fairly hard to catch. In actual fights, Frigates just suck. People like their drones, I doubt CCP will remove drones or even weaken them, perhaps if ECM Bursts worked better and frigates could jam drones and close in, maybe then you might see actual frigates in PvP.
I would love to see frigates personally, I too like the star wars type combat. ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2004.01.21 05:47:00 -
[7]
I've got to agree with Jim, here. I love fighting in frigates, but using them in fleet battles is pretty near pointless without letting other ships take out the drones before the frigates make their attack runs. Which kind of negates the initial advantage of a frigate...
There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense |
FZappa
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Posted - 2004.01.21 08:53:00 -
[8]
frigates should die fast imho , theres no reason a 150k ship can deal serious damage to a 100mil ship . period . fof cruise / drones should enable any half decent pilot to deal with frigates if he has to .
u can still harass a battleship with a frigate . one of my alts constantly uses a griffin with dampners to annoy battleships in combat . at 80km or so , with plenty of defenders , i can survive long enough to make a difference ;) -------------------------
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2004.01.21 09:04:00 -
[9]
I too like the starwars model of combat :)
it would be something that would be great to try an emulate.
you never saw the main guns of the stardetroyers etc taking out x-wings.
i think that the current tracking etc is very good - but it needs to be modified a bit...
make a modifier for turret type vs target type.
ie - small turret vs frigate == no mods - small turret vs cruiser == +45% hits - small turren vs battleship == +90% hits
- med turret vs frigate == -45% hits - med turret vs cruiser == no mods - med turret vs battlehisp == +45% hits
- large turret vs frigate == -90% hits - large turret vs cruiser = -45% hits - large turret vs battleshio == no mods
the idea baing that certain weapons are designed to combat certain targets, and their own tracking/combat computers are designed to hit a certain sized target.
a frigates target computer would love a battleship - its basically all target, and he would be able to happily try targetting weak spots with his weapons, maybe give it very good penetration as well : basically every shot should be a wrecking hit.
conversly a battleships large turret is designed to hit big kilometer long targets. hitting something 1/10th the size is a bit much... even when the computer says "on target" the target area is actually much bigger that the ship, so in all likelyhood the shot will go sailing past - hence nearly all shots would be scratches etc. -----
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.01.21 09:05:00 -
[10]
Quote: As was stated in a previous post, allowing frigates to target a ships modules or subsystems would give them a huge boost in usefulness.
I think like you. But ECM Burst need a big boost or heavy drone a nerf with the lock time.
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Usharin Silverberg
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Posted - 2004.01.21 09:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Usharin Silverberg on 21/01/2004 10:00:19 Give frigates a launcher capable of holding a single torpedo - M-15 launcher or some such - no more problems with drones - give the launcher a high cap requirement so a frigate can only carry 1 (or 2 with high skills)for balance.
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2004.01.21 11:21:00 -
[12]
Castor was promising for Frigates, and for a while I was really excited that my favourite type of ship would finally get a place in fleet battles, or even a fighting chance against bigger opponents.
How bad it all turned out to be. Frigates are still solely for new people vs rats, and the occassional hit-and-run action against Indies and a Cruiser.
Sure, using them in a (fleet) fight vs Battleships should be hard and semi-suicidal, but not the guaranteed death it is now.
Nice effort on the Dev's in trying to make it happen, bad implementation.
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Scragg
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Posted - 2004.01.21 15:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Scragg on 21/01/2004 15:35:16 If you have not figured out how to properly fly a frigate yet it's not CCP's fault. It's your own. I've seen some very good very tough frigate pilots that are extremely hard to kill with a battleship. So, what you have asked for is in the game, go figure it out. Here is a hint... speed is life.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jayad on 21/01/2004 19:18:55 Edited by: Jayad on 21/01/2004 17:03:24 Vel kyri,
yes thats the sort of thing i envisaged some kind of recognition of turret classes vs object size.
currently say the object was 150km away, your highbrids (whatever) would treat that object exactly the same regardless if it was BS or shuttle.....thatÆs not to realistic and decreases gameplay.
All the points given about the drone threat, do consern me also there is little frigs can do about them, i unfortunatly have no resonable ideas for a solution but i think others in this thread have made good points.
Thanks J
PS: ups sorry Orestes, working on a smaller sig..Edit: i hope that is alright.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:07:00 -
[15]
Frigates should have some innate defensive bonus against medium and large turrets. ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jayad on 21/01/2004 17:25:43 yeah Jim,
interesting that your m0o supporting this idea although you lot are recognised to have outstanding tactics, so would probably like to see more attacks by frig squadrons.
IÆm glad to see some support from your camp, changes highlighted by Vel should make battles more interesting for us all.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:27:00 -
[17]
I see no problem with more diversified fleets and more defined ship roles. People that only want battleship slugfests quite frankly aren't realizing Eve PvP has much more potenial than just that. ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:29:00 -
[18]
The real problem is that effective tracking value needs to be exaggerated at both ends. What I mean is that large guns need to be made USELESS against smaller targets and small guns need to be made USEFUL against larger targets.
The tracking on a small gun should, at or under optimal range, produce wrecking hits every shot against a battleship. I mean WTF the thing is so huge someone must be stupid not to be able to get a dead-on hit with the turret.
The tracking on a large gun should make it extremely difficult to hit small objects unless they have almost NO transversal velocity or are sitting still. Its the same problem with missiles --- the extremes aren't extreme enough.
Drones are another problem but I think if defender missiles were permitted against drones it would be enough to balance things out.
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TerminusX
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:32:00 -
[19]
I think firgates are fairly balanced at the moment. They are much more usefull than before. Plus, in terms of 'star wars' combat...these are battleships, not stardestroyers. If a small craft approached todays BS's it would be blown to hell. When titans roll around, I think that different mechanics (star wars like) mentioned here should apply...but not to BB's. Lets face it, they are less than 1% the cost.
Divine Retribution - My name is TerminusX, prepare to die. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:43:00 -
[20]
Quote: I think firgates are fairly balanced at the moment. They are much more usefull than before. Plus, in terms of 'star wars' combat...these are battleships, not stardestroyers. If a small craft approached todays BS's it would be blown to hell. When titans roll around, I think that different mechanics (star wars like) mentioned here should apply...but not to BB's. Lets face it, they are less than 1% the cost.
A Megathron is a little longer than a Victory Class Star Destroyer, actually.
(thanks internet) ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.21 17:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jayad on 21/01/2004 17:50:57 Ahh Terminus please, i see your point....but
If you wanted your BS to be the ultimate Frig killer then dont equip huge ungainly turrets. It has to be said that thoughs star-destroyers did equip more light guns than eve's equivalent ship types.
We are just brainstorming to try and make things more interesting hear
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Van Cleef
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Posted - 2004.01.21 19:31:00 -
[22]
Quote: ...these are battleships, not stardestroyers. If a small craft approached todays BS's it would be blown to hell.
Well, assuming a navy in todays world still used battleships (which no one does) the battleship would not hit the small craft with its main deck guns. They arent good at hitting small things that are moving fast close up. The Battleship would have to rely on smaller chain guns to attack these small craft... So, to use that comparison, it would seem that there shouldnt be ANY large turret that could target a frigate. ------------------------------------------------ Serve the State Join Channel CAINCOM |
Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2004.01.21 22:18:00 -
[23]
we seem to forget how big these ships are!!
the starship enterprise is only a damn cruiser size...
and most of the "rebel fleet" in star wars were frigate sized, with a couple of cruisers.
-----
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Mirimon
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Posted - 2004.01.22 01:10:00 -
[24]
Yea, I very much agree that large turrets should barely EVER hit SPECIALIZED frigates. I mean if somone just starts and takes a frigate into battle without proper skills it would be whipped. But if you had a good frigate with proper equipment, Battleships with just large weaponary should hardly ever hit the frigates. It would make PvP fleet battling sweet as h*ll, think about it. Certain battleships would have to be designated to concentrate on small craft, and also frigates would have a much more important role. Oh, I wish it was true!
"Then I guess I have no choice...but to kill you all." |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.22 01:24:00 -
[25]
There are some great solutions for the problem highlighted, I think everything needed to be said has been. Im more than ever convinced that such a change would create fantastic game play, new players in frigs would have important roles !!
It would be great if a dev - TomB could comment or give a reason ôforö or ôagainstö this improvement idea. I personally think this has high priority.
Thank you everyone for the support so far
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Onan
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Posted - 2004.01.22 04:39:00 -
[26]
Just lending my support for this tracking modifier sounds good in princible, although DRONES WTF ? how are we suppost to combat the dam blighters.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.22 04:42:00 -
[27]
Quote: we seem to forget how big these ships are!!
the starship enterprise is only a damn cruiser size...
and most of the "rebel fleet" in star wars were frigate sized, with a couple of cruisers.
Which Enterprise? Aren't there like 5?
But you're right, a Megathron is bigger than a Star Destroyer, according to some internet site. =] ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
s0cks
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Posted - 2004.01.22 09:23:00 -
[28]
Edited by: s0cks on 22/01/2004 09:37:32 Mercenary Frigates knows your frustration. We have wars with a number of corps. Fortuantly a few of these corps come out of hiding and are always up for a fight.
They know we are frigates, and thus use smartbombs, and FoF missiles (once they are jammed), and obviously BS's/Thorax's use drones. And drones are literally impossible to counter attack.
Here are a few viable options:
- bait, use one frigate with MWD to lure drones away (this only works for a short time tho) - target drones first, every frigate disable a drone (not great is it)
We, as a corp are continuing to try and find new ways around problems such as FoFs (which recently we have a small degree of success in), and a counter measure for drones (which we've had no success in).
But generally it is almost impossible for say 6 frigates to beat more than 2 battleships, or more than 3/4 cruisers, unless the frigates are extrememly well organized.
-----
My opinion would be to have some sort of decoy for missiles that has a success rate dependent on mass (for example, a missile locked on to the heat source of a massive battleship, is more than likely to hit even if a decoy is released (e.g 90% accuracy), unlike a small frigate where the decoy would probably be the same size, if not larger than the frigate heat source (thus only a missile with say 25% chance would hit).
For drones you should be able to use dfender missiles against them or fix the ECM burst. Just some ideas.
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.01.22 11:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jayad on 22/01/2004 12:07:23
It should always take a larger number of frigates to battle bigger ships, that IÆm in no dispute. Still i dont think the work to make frigates part of the game has been realised yet.
This "tracking" modifier in relation to size is the missing mechanic.
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s0cks
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Posted - 2004.01.22 12:05:00 -
[30]
Frigates should be a part of the game agreed, but wot really should happen is that corps should be able to use fleets of different ships with more effect.
When someone wants to build/or think of an impressive fighting force they think 100 battleships.
The locking distance for all cruisers and frigates should be increased to counter battleships warping many km's away and still being able to fire their long range weapons without cruisers or frigates ever getting a lock. Thats why I don't like fighting big wars, because it can be almost impossible to jam the BS targetting you 100km away.
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