EVE is a harsh mistress? Compared to the way my friends and I played AD&D back when we were sadistic little pre-teen pukes in the late 70s and early 80s, EVE is a coddling, affectionate wet-nurse. :)

"Are the drones Ogres? I have a +9 dagger against Ogres! Where's the Mountain Dew? Am I getting drunk yet?"

Also, 3.5 is IMHO the best version of D&D released to date, the people who came up with 4th, should however be executed and everything pertaining to 4th should be burned

You realize this means I probably have 10-15 years on you. :ouch:

I actually spent good money on 3rd edition when it came out, and found it so diluted as to be nearly unplayable. The game had devolved into silly mechanics of power systems(Feats), crap skills with no depth, even crappier items with stacking bonuses, and character stucture that resembled stacked magic or pokemon card decks.

All the RP elements of the game were wiped with the introduction of 3rd, the worlds became plastic models with no real content, and the planes devolved to a basic notion that there was something out there.

The saddest part, is crafting a magical item now requires an appropriate feat and a few basic materials; where the knowledge of how to do so, has been completely lost. You don't even need spells, because the mechanics of the spell and magic system don't allow for it.

If I have any regrets, it's that I didn't quit sooner. It really is a waste of time better spent elsewhere either way; the only good thing that came with 3rd editon, is my realization of that. The fact that most players are pot-smoking, narcisistic idiots wasn't enough by itself; as I always figured I could find a good group. I never did.

Now it holds no appeal for me; or very little.

EVE is not necessarily a harsh mistress

2nd edition isn't really all that complex if you're familiar with it.

Attack; Roll D20; compare to THAC0; adjust for AC; Roll Damage

Cast Spell; Roll D20 Save if applicable; Compare to appropriate Saving Throw; Apply effect or roll damage.

I don't see what's complicated about that; and I haven't played in 17 years.

True. Once you delved into the Skills & Powers type supplements you could spend days in character generation. It made all the min/maxers have wet dreams. But D20 - I don't know. Never could get into it in the same way that 3D6 did it for me. THAC0 was a beautiful thing.

They are. I say 3D6 for attributes, that's all.

Just to clarify: what I meant was the D20 system that became the basis for 3.0 and a bunch other games, as opposed to the AD&D system.

One thing they actually did right with D20 was that, from the very beginning, it came with a reference document on how to extend and expand the system to, not just add new classes or abilities or the like, but in order to adapt it to completely different settings and still keep the system coherent. This was pretty much explicitly done to avoid (or at least mitigate) the splatbook/supplement/house-rule grab bag problem that had plaguedGǪ wellGǪ pretty much all well-expanded games up until that point.

GǪhell, even something as relatively simple as Shadowrun could require upwards of 6GÇô7 books to cover all the bases for a new character up until its 4th edition (and even then, all 4th ed did was to bring many of the basics that had usually been left to the splat books into the core rulebook and the stuff in the supplements wasn't needed until you had a fair amount of Karma and -Ñ to spend).

True, D20 is a very open system. I can't argue that. My nostalgia just has me hankering for my old, convoluted system. Nowadays, when I have the chance, I'll run a campaign using the White Wolf system. It's just a cleaner representation for me of reality and with automatic successes (Yes, you can take 10 / 20 in DnD) it helps the story along more with fewer dice rolls.

Really, I liked the Forgottent Realms crafting system, and made use of books like Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, and Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog.

Other favorites were Pirates of the Fallen Stars, Elminster's Ecologies, Drow of the Underdark, and the Draconomicon; in addition to Menzoberranzan and Undermountain Boxed sets.

Also liked Planescape and picked up a lot of that resource material. Spell Jammer too.

I think I mostly just liked figuring everything out, while reading about the history, settings, and features. Can't really say for sure; but I rarely enjoyed playing it as much as studying it. Like I said before though; a lot of that was the people I knew who played.

Of course, it you want convoluted (at least in terms of die rolls), there's once again Earthdawn: GÇ£hey, I know, let's have ability scores that determine the dice to roll through the rule of GÇÿhow can I get the same number by adding together the statistical averages (rounded up) of as few dice as possibleGÇ¥ (?!) An ability score of 9? Well, that's 5 + 4, so obviously you roll D8+D6. 13? That's a D12+D10, duh!