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Mangala Solaris Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:20:00 - [1] Lots of threads - too many to count anymore - about macros/isk farmers/sellers. But nothing about ISK Buyers - what can be done to encourage them to stop, or to not start in the first place? After all, without demand the supply would dry up would it not? Its all well and good CCP openly stating the harsh line on buying that they have, however buyers exist and they need to be dealt with BEFORE you go after the sellers ideally. ------- All of these stars... these vast worlds that remain out of reach. If I could, I would annex other planets.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:23:00 - [2] An ISK-buyer seeking missile. As in, a RL one. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:35:00 - [3] But if you turn off the tap does the water not dry up? If the temptation didnt exist would the buyers have no other means than to.. prepare your self... Play the game like the rest of us? if they can trace sale to the buyer? why not the other way to the master acct? We all have made petitions to no end and just the other day i see some of my personal petitions up and running after a short hiatus. A CCP stance and a BAN list would be a nice way for us to see how our efforts go heard. Glad to see they are attempting to help those that live in an economy that the best job they can find is to play games all day. But wouldnt a better way to utilize the resource is to employ those that can bug hunt and program to better the gaming experience? It is the megacorp way to outsource everything they can for as little as possible.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:08:00 - [4] So true, so true, but unfortunately those who buy ISK are not about to stand up and declare it. We, the real players of Eve (as opposed to the ISK buyers and ISK farmers of Eve) can only do so much. There are indeed two sides to the ISK purchase equation, it's just that the in-game ISK farmers are the half that the real players can recognise and perhaps hinder.They are the visible and obvious symptom of ISK buying. The cheating scum who bought their way to <insert valuable ships, bpos, fittings here> is not easily identified and will understandably lie and generally obfuscate about the source of their wealth. I wonder sometimes, reading posts making apologetic sounds about ISK farmers, ISK buyers, sweatshops and macros, whether the author is feeling a pang of conscience about the ISK they bought and want to rationalise it to themselves as much as anyone else. Here's a thought: What if 50% of the people playing Eve do, in fact, buy ISK for RL money? CCP surely wouldn't bork their own wallet to ban such players. Where would that situation leave the real players? where would that leave the game?
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:22:00 - [5] An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. In my view they give a half-hearted attempt to control the flow of isk. When you login it says Buying isk is against the EULA. well my question is what about selling it? There is always 2 sides to every story and just as always i love to listen, and be the devils advocate. Its always good to keep a well balanced mental diet as well.
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Cruthensis //snip Here's a thought: What if 50% of the people playing Eve do, in fact, buy ISK for RL money? CCP surely wouldn't bork their own wallet to ban such players. Where would that situation leave the real players? where would that leave the game? missed this part... heres a quick math boggler for you. I am in a corp of 20 we all have alts (2nd accts) so now its a corp of 10*2 most of the corps i have been in are pretty much 50% active alts(2nd accts) at 33k people online how many people are actually there?especially considering some of the 8+alts i have read about doing some mining ops? How about the sweatshop macros? they cant be counted. well except the 1 physical person being there. maybe 10k actual people there? Kinda knocks it down to about 5k at 50% thats still alot of people that buy isk and i think that maye a high number. Maybe some number cruncher can figure out how much isk is theoretically bought and sold and how much RL cash CCP is loosing out on. OP sorry to derail you.
MasterDecoy Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Shilikahn An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. isk-sink Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:00:00 - [8] Edited by: barvo on 02/07/2007 15:03:36 The buyers should be actually remarkably easy to track at the moment for CCP, assuming they do things in the rational way I think they do. It should be entirely possible to track the flow of isk from farmers who are reported in petitions. Being as CCP employ developers, it's not beyond them to write a script that brings up all associated cash and item exchanges between a reported farmer and all other players in the player base. Don't trust reports of farmers? OK, in that case CCP can buy isk from the people openly selling it via google ads and so on. ZOMG logic ftl. Then they know which char the isk comes from, they can extrapolate from there where that character got the money from. That's like a 60 second database query right? It's the assimilation of this information that's the problem in order to work out who else is buying the isk. Well, not really. There are plenty of tools out there, in the data analysis market, that can map out data relationships and display them in lovely interconnecting visual patterns that would make it really easy to see who's supplying what and where it's going. Yes, I work with this kind of stuff, and yes, it would be trivial to apply it to this task. Or, CCP could flag up any player donations over a ceratin amount and someone could cast a cursory eye over the transaction. For example, character x has had 10 high value transactions today all going to different people in different parts of the galaxy in different alliances etc. etc. That kind of stuff is so obvious that in my view, the thing that's lacking is the will or perhaps the manpower to do anything about it. And I can't help wondering why that is - perhaps it's so pervasive among the EVE community that to do anything would result in them effectively shooting themselves in the foot, who knows? edit - i wasn't trying to accuse devs of being isk farmers, reworded to avoid some muppet making that assumption.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Shilikahn An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. In my view they give a half-hearted attempt to control the flow of isk. When you login it says Buying isk is against the EULA. well my question is what about selling it? There is always 2 sides to every story and just as always i love to listen, and be the devils advocate. Its always good to keep a well balanced mental diet as well. The answer is to terminate accounts involved in buying or selling ISK. Losing out on $20 of purchased ISK isn't much of a disincentive. Losing years of training and all your assets might be. Perhaps: First offence = removal of purchased ISK, plus half of any remaining ISK, plus loss of largest trained skill level (let's see your ISK-seller refund Advanced Spaceship Command 5) Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"

barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis The answer is to terminate accounts involved in buying or selling ISK. Losing out on $20 of purchased ISK isn't much of a disincentive. Losing years of training and all your assets might be. Perhaps: First offence = removal of purchased ISK, plus half of any remaining ISK, plus loss of largest trained skill level (let's see your ISK-seller refund Advanced Spaceship Command 5) Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. That's a good course to go down. Very harsh penalties are always a good preventative measure in my book. But the problem is that CCP are not being seen to be doing anything about catching people in the first place, let alone enforcing the existing punishments.
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... This is where things go wrong on so many levels. We as a player base cant hope to stem the tide with a thought process like this. It just shows what CCP has to put up with and sift through to get to the real problem.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:27:00 - [13] Edited by: Cruthensis on 02/07/2007 15:26:33 Here's some conjecture - it's all I have! : Maybe CCP do know who all the ISK buyers, ISK sellers and ISK farmers are. They have full and free access to the database afterall. The problem for them may be that to enforce their own rules fully, fairly and consistently would mean borking so many wallets or banning so many accounts that, in the end, it would not be worth it. Users quit, CCP would lose money. Would the above make that little warning on the load screen hypocritical? Are CCP trying hard to appear to be reprimanding ISK buyers and sellers, but doing little about them? Will the day come that I get warned for 'harassing' an account sharing, 23/7 mining ISK farmer, as its four accounts are worth more than my one? If you were CCP, what would you do? The thing that really irks, is that the real players have so much 'more' invested in this game than any of the ISK buyers and sellers. We invest our time, effort and genuine passion for playing. Could it actually be the case that we are in fact in the minority?
Corporal Clue	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:31:00 - [14] Isk selling/Isk buying are simply one the same. They're both part of the problem and both should be punished in the same way, namely if you get caught buying isk you get your account banned for life. I don't understand why CCP seem to wiggle a finger at the people who actually screw up the game, but punish the farmers more heavily. If CCP were really serious about the whole thing, they'd ban the GTC for Isk trading that is rampant in the game. It might be popular, but it has exactly the same impact on the game (people using real life money to buy ISK, even if it has an extra step in it).
Plave Okice Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:32:00 - [15] Given the amount of ISK sellers and farmers there seems to be there must be a huge amount of people buying ISK, if there wasn't there'd hardly be any farmers. So if CCP did find all the buyers and sellers and banned the lot, how much would they be hurting themselves? Banning 500 subs? 1000? More? Allowing the sale of GTC's for ISK is CCP's acceptance that whatever they do, some people will want to buy ISK, they won't be able to stop it, at least that way CCP get to make some money.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... You'd really spend real-life money on ISK, and also enough money and time to train a character up to the standard required to join a corp that you care about enough to bother griefing, just to do that? Wouldn't it be simpler and quicker to just pay some thugs to go round to the CEO's house and beat him up?
Admiral Derooy Caldari Caldari Special Operations Division	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:42:01 Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:40:26 I think that making harscher reprimands wouldn't solve the problem in the longterm Besides if i remember correctly the EULA clearly states that the selling and/or buying ISK is a clear violation. A much better way("going back to the roots") would be people(Players and/or GM's) on the lookout for ISK selling spammers in major public / local channels ingame, grab their URLs, perform a Whois search and send the owner of the website a nice informative mail by a large Lawyer company. then see them dissapear like Icecream in the sun. If you dont give ISK-scammsters the plattform to operate (in this case ISK selling websites.) then there will be no ISK sellers anymore. Ok granted, it may take 2-3 days for the letter to arrive but on the longterm, the selling plattforms would be shut down and ISP/carriers and Webhosting communites can be informed about these practises (Especially ISP's tend to get very nervous about webbased fraud happening via their lines) I try to report every single spammer, which creeps up on the channels Me penny on the matter, Friendly Regards, Admiral Derooy
Caios Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:52:00 - [18] Edited by: Caios on 02/07/2007 15:55:19 Originally by: Shilikahn But if you turn off the tap does the water not dry up? If the temptation didnt exist would the buyers have no other means than to.. prepare your self... Play the game like the rest of us? That's not a correct analogy. It's been shown that the tap simply won't run unless there's a place for the water to go. Games without buying problems, either through some sort of legalized rl money conversion like many Korean titles do, or other means or simply by geography (serenity, for example, doesn't have many farmers), don't see farmers breaking in to try and "create" a market. Buyers, unlike sellers, are harder to identify, tend not to stand out or advertise their activities, and seem to receive less overt animosity because they're more likely to be the guy next door than some foreigner working in a basement somewhere. They're also the source of the problem. Instead of simply pulling wallet deductions, CCP should be busting out the banhammer like they do with the supply side, at least in the case of repeat offenses. Originally by: Admiral Derooy Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:42:01 Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:40:26 I think that making harscher reprimands wouldn't solve the problem in the longterm Besides if i remember correctly the EULA clearly states that the selling and/or buying ISK is a clear violation. A much better way("going back to the roots") would be people(Players and/or GM's) on the lookout for ISK selling spammers in major public / local channels ingame, grab their URLs, perform a Whois search and send the owner of the website a nice informative mail by a large Lawyer company. then see them dissapear like Icecream in the sun. If you dont give ISK-scammsters the plattform to operate (in this case ISK selling websites.) then there will be no ISK sellers anymore. Ok granted, it may take 2-3 days for the letter to arrive but on the longterm, the selling plattforms would be shut down and ISP/carriers and Webhosting communites can be informed about these practises (Especially ISP's tend to get very nervous about webbased fraud happening via their lines) I try to report every single spammer, which creeps up on the channels Me penny on the matter, Friendly Regards, Admiral Derooy Those sites would be back in a month, unfortunatly. Even in this day and age, there are ways to dodge a dd fired by a legal titan. As long as the profit derived from potential sales outweighs the cost of going underground and popping up later in some new form, the supply side will always exist.
Junsoo	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:04:00 - [19] How can ccp ban buyers fairly, for one they cannot prove that money transferred was paid for with real dollars. Someone might buy a **load of GTC's and sells them to a friend and recieves many billions of ISK but they did it out of game since they goto school together or work etc now this would look like they were buying ISK for real dollars just the same if someone was to buy from an ISK seller. What if someone accidently gets transferred a few bill of ISK? ** looks like someones been doin some ISK shopping, better ban him! And it goes on, the point is all CCP can do is ban the Macroers or ban people which they have entrapped sort of like the police buying drugs from dealers so they can arrest them. Alot of innocent players will lose their accounts and what they have worked hard for on baseless speculation and accusation and this certainly isn't fair either, much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Junsoo much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers. Where do you think GTC are coming from? Ship lovers click here

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:16:00 - [21] anyone in my corp gets caught buying isk they get ONE warning, after that they get expelled and pod killed Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Junsoo	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Junsoo much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers. Where do you think GTC are coming from? Umm CCP? what does that have to do with in game economy? You're still getting money you would otherwise not have had if you hadn't used real money to buy it. Just because CCP gets a cut doesn't mean ****. What about the corps who affiliate with companies selling GTC's who then skim the money they make off the top and buy GTC's with that money? You know like GoonSwarm does?
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:43:00 - [23] I hate to say this, but this will probably be the downfall of Eve I don't think there is any real solution, regardless of whether CCP really wants to combat the problem or not. I was attacked by an isk buyer defending isk farmers I was pestering. He was in a force recon, I was in a mammoth. It took him 25 minutes to pop me, with a shuttle bumping me the whole time as apparently he couldn't even warp scamble me - pretty pathetic. Ultimately, isk selling/buying will result in sufficient game imbalance that hiring Alan Greenspan and 50 other economists won't fix. I hope it won't be soon, but I think it will be Eve's downfall. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
Caios Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Maxpie I hate to say this, but this will probably be the downfall of Eve I don't think there is any real solution, regardless of whether CCP really wants to combat the problem or not. I was attacked by an isk buyer defending isk farmers I was pestering. He was in a force recon, I was in a mammoth. It took him 25 minutes to pop me, with a shuttle bumping me the whole time as apparently he couldn't even warp scamble me - pretty pathetic. Ultimately, isk selling/buying will result in sufficient game imbalance that hiring Alan Greenspan and 50 other economists won't fix. I hope it won't be soon, but I think it will be Eve's downfall. That's a bit fatalistic, don't you think? I mean, this is a problem in just about every game with a shared namespace, not just EVE. I don't think the MMO market will crash because of it. At worse, there'll have to be a tweaking of the way the economy works so that it is unaffected by rl money conversions; this might include some sort of institutionalization of rl conversion even beyond GTC sales. sounds bad? yeah. but will it kill eve? i think the game's got a lot more going for it for something like this to kill.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:01:00 - [25] come to think of it, if ccp went the OTHER direction, and offered their own SECURE isk buying service, they could get rid of the farmers mahaha Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Tortun Nahme anyone in my corp gets caught buying isk they get ONE warning, after that they get expelled and pod killed It's okay, they give me 10% so I'm looking the other way "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
ALT gF4	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:29:00 - [27] What happens to the ISK that is seized when such black market transactions are uncovered? Is it permanently removed from the economy, or used to replish fundementals such as veldspar or T2 BPOs? If not...can I have it?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:30:00 - [28] The Jove take it Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Corporal Clue Isk selling/Isk buying are simply one the same. They're both part of the problem and both should be punished in the same way, namely if you get caught buying isk you get your account banned for life. I don't understand why CCP seem to wiggle a finger at the people who actually screw up the game, but punish the farmers more heavily. If CCP were really serious about the whole thing, they'd ban the GTC for Isk trading that is rampant in the game. It might be popular, but it has exactly the same impact on the game (people using real life money to buy ISK, even if it has an extra step in it). As I see it, there are 3 categories of people... buyers, Professional sellers, and casual sellers... and they are not the same... Buyers play the game, they buy ISK in an attempt to make up for not being able to make enough via their own efforts... Professional Sellers are (IMO) the biggest problem, and should be the easy ones to track... these are the ISK farmers, the sweatshop owners... they don't really play the game beyond trying to profit from it... Casual Sellers are the folks that find they have a lot of ISK and want to make money... I think these are the ones that would use EBay... It seems to me that the Buyers and Casual Sellers should get a warning... only 1, then banned... if as one of the Eve news blurbs said, sellers were then ripping off the buyer and reselling the ISK as well as everything the buyer had, that would not warrant a warning... As for the Professional sellers, part of the cost of doing business... replacing accounts... and they should have to be on a regular basis... here is my thinking... ISK Buyer <- ISK Sender <- ISK Seller <- ISK Suppliers <- Item Suppliers (ore, minerals and so on)... Each time an ISK Buyer is busted, the supplier of those ISK (the Sender) is also known... That Sender was supplied those ISK by someone... who was supplied the ISK by someone... back to a point where the ISK were "Made" by either a miner, trader, farmer of some sort... each of these ISK transfers are going to be reflected in the wallet/journal of a character along the way... and should be able to be followed by CCP in the database... if I can look at my journal, so can they... Each time a "Buyer" is busted (warned or banned) the supply chain that made those ISK should be banned as well... from the Sender all the way back to the Farmer(s)... Heck, I would not even mind it if the ISK Farmer Protection Forces were added into the mass banning as they are supporting the operation... but I am not going to hold my breath... Yes, I would love to see the weekly numbers posted... "X accounts banned for buying/selling ISK"... no names needed... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:50:00 - [30] Given the recent popularity of the issue, I looked around and found something disturbing: @ some ISK/Gold site : 400M ISK x $34.00 USD @ shatteredcrystal : 90days GTC x $38.99 USD @ the eve's gtc forum: 90days GTC x 375M ISK So it can actually be cheaper... disturbing, no wonder there are so many farmers.



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