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Mangala Solaris Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:20:00 - [1] Lots of threads - too many to count anymore - about macros/isk farmers/sellers. But nothing about ISK Buyers - what can be done to encourage them to stop, or to not start in the first place? After all, without demand the supply would dry up would it not? Its all well and good CCP openly stating the harsh line on buying that they have, however buyers exist and they need to be dealt with BEFORE you go after the sellers ideally. ------- All of these stars... these vast worlds that remain out of reach. If I could, I would annex other planets.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:23:00 - [2] An ISK-buyer seeking missile. As in, a RL one. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 13:35:00 - [3] But if you turn off the tap does the water not dry up? If the temptation didnt exist would the buyers have no other means than to.. prepare your self... Play the game like the rest of us? if they can trace sale to the buyer? why not the other way to the master acct? We all have made petitions to no end and just the other day i see some of my personal petitions up and running after a short hiatus. A CCP stance and a BAN list would be a nice way for us to see how our efforts go heard. Glad to see they are attempting to help those that live in an economy that the best job they can find is to play games all day. But wouldnt a better way to utilize the resource is to employ those that can bug hunt and program to better the gaming experience? It is the megacorp way to outsource everything they can for as little as possible.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:08:00 - [4] So true, so true, but unfortunately those who buy ISK are not about to stand up and declare it. We, the real players of Eve (as opposed to the ISK buyers and ISK farmers of Eve) can only do so much. There are indeed two sides to the ISK purchase equation, it's just that the in-game ISK farmers are the half that the real players can recognise and perhaps hinder.They are the visible and obvious symptom of ISK buying. The cheating scum who bought their way to <insert valuable ships, bpos, fittings here> is not easily identified and will understandably lie and generally obfuscate about the source of their wealth. I wonder sometimes, reading posts making apologetic sounds about ISK farmers, ISK buyers, sweatshops and macros, whether the author is feeling a pang of conscience about the ISK they bought and want to rationalise it to themselves as much as anyone else. Here's a thought: What if 50% of the people playing Eve do, in fact, buy ISK for RL money? CCP surely wouldn't bork their own wallet to ban such players. Where would that situation leave the real players? where would that leave the game?
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:22:00 - [5] An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. In my view they give a half-hearted attempt to control the flow of isk. When you login it says Buying isk is against the EULA. well my question is what about selling it? There is always 2 sides to every story and just as always i love to listen, and be the devils advocate. Its always good to keep a well balanced mental diet as well.
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Cruthensis //snip Here's a thought: What if 50% of the people playing Eve do, in fact, buy ISK for RL money? CCP surely wouldn't bork their own wallet to ban such players. Where would that situation leave the real players? where would that leave the game? missed this part... heres a quick math boggler for you. I am in a corp of 20 we all have alts (2nd accts) so now its a corp of 10*2 most of the corps i have been in are pretty much 50% active alts(2nd accts) at 33k people online how many people are actually there?especially considering some of the 8+alts i have read about doing some mining ops? How about the sweatshop macros? they cant be counted. well except the 1 physical person being there. maybe 10k actual people there? Kinda knocks it down to about 5k at 50% thats still alot of people that buy isk and i think that maye a high number. Maybe some number cruncher can figure out how much isk is theoretically bought and sold and how much RL cash CCP is loosing out on. OP sorry to derail you.
MasterDecoy Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.07.02 14:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Shilikahn An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. isk-sink Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:00:00 - [8] Edited by: barvo on 02/07/2007 15:03:36 The buyers should be actually remarkably easy to track at the moment for CCP, assuming they do things in the rational way I think they do. It should be entirely possible to track the flow of isk from farmers who are reported in petitions. Being as CCP employ developers, it's not beyond them to write a script that brings up all associated cash and item exchanges between a reported farmer and all other players in the player base. Don't trust reports of farmers? OK, in that case CCP can buy isk from the people openly selling it via google ads and so on. ZOMG logic ftl. Then they know which char the isk comes from, they can extrapolate from there where that character got the money from. That's like a 60 second database query right? It's the assimilation of this information that's the problem in order to work out who else is buying the isk. Well, not really. There are plenty of tools out there, in the data analysis market, that can map out data relationships and display them in lovely interconnecting visual patterns that would make it really easy to see who's supplying what and where it's going. Yes, I work with this kind of stuff, and yes, it would be trivial to apply it to this task. Or, CCP could flag up any player donations over a ceratin amount and someone could cast a cursory eye over the transaction. For example, character x has had 10 high value transactions today all going to different people in different parts of the galaxy in different alliances etc. etc. That kind of stuff is so obvious that in my view, the thing that's lacking is the will or perhaps the manpower to do anything about it. And I can't help wondering why that is - perhaps it's so pervasive among the EVE community that to do anything would result in them effectively shooting themselves in the foot, who knows? edit - i wasn't trying to accuse devs of being isk farmers, reworded to avoid some muppet making that assumption.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Shilikahn An excorp mate purchsed isk and had it removed from his wallet. so he went to the same source at the same place from the same character came a first time refund. the seller held upto his guarantee. The second time he was caught they removed the same amount for his wallet. so in all he purchased 2bil +1 and had 2bil removed and still came out ahead(the refund). now do you think they looked into the path of the flow? The way he was caught was he got into in arguement with a RL friend that is in the same corp and the RL friend evemailed a GM and "tattletaled" on him. In my view they give a half-hearted attempt to control the flow of isk. When you login it says Buying isk is against the EULA. well my question is what about selling it? There is always 2 sides to every story and just as always i love to listen, and be the devils advocate. Its always good to keep a well balanced mental diet as well. The answer is to terminate accounts involved in buying or selling ISK. Losing out on $20 of purchased ISK isn't much of a disincentive. Losing years of training and all your assets might be. Perhaps: First offence = removal of purchased ISK, plus half of any remaining ISK, plus loss of largest trained skill level (let's see your ISK-seller refund Advanced Spaceship Command 5) Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis The answer is to terminate accounts involved in buying or selling ISK. Losing out on $20 of purchased ISK isn't much of a disincentive. Losing years of training and all your assets might be. Perhaps: First offence = removal of purchased ISK, plus half of any remaining ISK, plus loss of largest trained skill level (let's see your ISK-seller refund Advanced Spaceship Command 5) Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. That's a good course to go down. Very harsh penalties are always a good preventative measure in my book. But the problem is that CCP are not being seen to be doing anything about catching people in the first place, let alone enforcing the existing punishments.
Shilikahn	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... This is where things go wrong on so many levels. We as a player base cant hope to stem the tide with a thought process like this. It just shows what CCP has to put up with and sift through to get to the real problem.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:27:00 - [13] Edited by: Cruthensis on 02/07/2007 15:26:33 Here's some conjecture - it's all I have! : Maybe CCP do know who all the ISK buyers, ISK sellers and ISK farmers are. They have full and free access to the database afterall. The problem for them may be that to enforce their own rules fully, fairly and consistently would mean borking so many wallets or banning so many accounts that, in the end, it would not be worth it. Users quit, CCP would lose money. Would the above make that little warning on the load screen hypocritical? Are CCP trying hard to appear to be reprimanding ISK buyers and sellers, but doing little about them? Will the day come that I get warned for 'harassing' an account sharing, 23/7 mining ISK farmer, as its four accounts are worth more than my one? If you were CCP, what would you do? The thing that really irks, is that the real players have so much 'more' invested in this game than any of the ISK buyers and sellers. We invest our time, effort and genuine passion for playing. Could it actually be the case that we are in fact in the minority?
Corporal Clue	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:31:00 - [14] Isk selling/Isk buying are simply one the same. They're both part of the problem and both should be punished in the same way, namely if you get caught buying isk you get your account banned for life. I don't understand why CCP seem to wiggle a finger at the people who actually screw up the game, but punish the farmers more heavily. If CCP were really serious about the whole thing, they'd ban the GTC for Isk trading that is rampant in the game. It might be popular, but it has exactly the same impact on the game (people using real life money to buy ISK, even if it has an extra step in it).
Plave Okice Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:32:00 - [15] Given the amount of ISK sellers and farmers there seems to be there must be a huge amount of people buying ISK, if there wasn't there'd hardly be any farmers. So if CCP did find all the buyers and sellers and banned the lot, how much would they be hurting themselves? Banning 500 subs? 1000? More? Allowing the sale of GTC's for ISK is CCP's acceptance that whatever they do, some people will want to buy ISK, they won't be able to stop it, at least that way CCP get to make some money.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Kuolematon Originally by: Malcanis Second offence = account terminated, and the player's corporation fined an amount equal to ISK purchased. YES PLEASE! I almost wet myself when I tought how many ways I can grief people with this! PLEASE! Make this PRONTO! .... You'd really spend real-life money on ISK, and also enough money and time to train a character up to the standard required to join a corp that you care about enough to bother griefing, just to do that? Wouldn't it be simpler and quicker to just pay some thugs to go round to the CEO's house and beat him up?
Admiral Derooy Caldari Caldari Special Operations Division	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:42:01 Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:40:26 I think that making harscher reprimands wouldn't solve the problem in the longterm Besides if i remember correctly the EULA clearly states that the selling and/or buying ISK is a clear violation. A much better way("going back to the roots") would be people(Players and/or GM's) on the lookout for ISK selling spammers in major public / local channels ingame, grab their URLs, perform a Whois search and send the owner of the website a nice informative mail by a large Lawyer company. then see them dissapear like Icecream in the sun. If you dont give ISK-scammsters the plattform to operate (in this case ISK selling websites.) then there will be no ISK sellers anymore. Ok granted, it may take 2-3 days for the letter to arrive but on the longterm, the selling plattforms would be shut down and ISP/carriers and Webhosting communites can be informed about these practises (Especially ISP's tend to get very nervous about webbased fraud happening via their lines) I try to report every single spammer, which creeps up on the channels Me penny on the matter, Friendly Regards, Admiral Derooy
Caios Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 15:52:00 - [18] Edited by: Caios on 02/07/2007 15:55:19 Originally by: Shilikahn But if you turn off the tap does the water not dry up? If the temptation didnt exist would the buyers have no other means than to.. prepare your self... Play the game like the rest of us? That's not a correct analogy. It's been shown that the tap simply won't run unless there's a place for the water to go. Games without buying problems, either through some sort of legalized rl money conversion like many Korean titles do, or other means or simply by geography (serenity, for example, doesn't have many farmers), don't see farmers breaking in to try and "create" a market. Buyers, unlike sellers, are harder to identify, tend not to stand out or advertise their activities, and seem to receive less overt animosity because they're more likely to be the guy next door than some foreigner working in a basement somewhere. They're also the source of the problem. Instead of simply pulling wallet deductions, CCP should be busting out the banhammer like they do with the supply side, at least in the case of repeat offenses. Originally by: Admiral Derooy Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:42:01 Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 02/07/2007 15:40:26 I think that making harscher reprimands wouldn't solve the problem in the longterm Besides if i remember correctly the EULA clearly states that the selling and/or buying ISK is a clear violation. A much better way("going back to the roots") would be people(Players and/or GM's) on the lookout for ISK selling spammers in major public / local channels ingame, grab their URLs, perform a Whois search and send the owner of the website a nice informative mail by a large Lawyer company. then see them dissapear like Icecream in the sun. If you dont give ISK-scammsters the plattform to operate (in this case ISK selling websites.) then there will be no ISK sellers anymore. Ok granted, it may take 2-3 days for the letter to arrive but on the longterm, the selling plattforms would be shut down and ISP/carriers and Webhosting communites can be informed about these practises (Especially ISP's tend to get very nervous about webbased fraud happening via their lines) I try to report every single spammer, which creeps up on the channels Me penny on the matter, Friendly Regards, Admiral Derooy Those sites would be back in a month, unfortunatly. Even in this day and age, there are ways to dodge a dd fired by a legal titan. As long as the profit derived from potential sales outweighs the cost of going underground and popping up later in some new form, the supply side will always exist.
Junsoo	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:04:00 - [19] How can ccp ban buyers fairly, for one they cannot prove that money transferred was paid for with real dollars. Someone might buy a **load of GTC's and sells them to a friend and recieves many billions of ISK but they did it out of game since they goto school together or work etc now this would look like they were buying ISK for real dollars just the same if someone was to buy from an ISK seller. What if someone accidently gets transferred a few bill of ISK? ** looks like someones been doin some ISK shopping, better ban him! And it goes on, the point is all CCP can do is ban the Macroers or ban people which they have entrapped sort of like the police buying drugs from dealers so they can arrest them. Alot of innocent players will lose their accounts and what they have worked hard for on baseless speculation and accusation and this certainly isn't fair either, much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Junsoo much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers. Where do you think GTC are coming from? Ship lovers click here
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:16:00 - [21] anyone in my corp gets caught buying isk they get ONE warning, after that they get expelled and pod killed Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Junsoo	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Junsoo much like GTC's are ruining the economy just as much as ISK sellers. Where do you think GTC are coming from? Umm CCP? what does that have to do with in game economy? You're still getting money you would otherwise not have had if you hadn't used real money to buy it. Just because CCP gets a cut doesn't mean ****. What about the corps who affiliate with companies selling GTC's who then skim the money they make off the top and buy GTC's with that money? You know like GoonSwarm does?
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:43:00 - [23] I hate to say this, but this will probably be the downfall of Eve I don't think there is any real solution, regardless of whether CCP really wants to combat the problem or not. I was attacked by an isk buyer defending isk farmers I was pestering. He was in a force recon, I was in a mammoth. It took him 25 minutes to pop me, with a shuttle bumping me the whole time as apparently he couldn't even warp scamble me - pretty pathetic. Ultimately, isk selling/buying will result in sufficient game imbalance that hiring Alan Greenspan and 50 other economists won't fix. I hope it won't be soon, but I think it will be Eve's downfall. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
Caios Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 16:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Maxpie I hate to say this, but this will probably be the downfall of Eve I don't think there is any real solution, regardless of whether CCP really wants to combat the problem or not. I was attacked by an isk buyer defending isk farmers I was pestering. He was in a force recon, I was in a mammoth. It took him 25 minutes to pop me, with a shuttle bumping me the whole time as apparently he couldn't even warp scamble me - pretty pathetic. Ultimately, isk selling/buying will result in sufficient game imbalance that hiring Alan Greenspan and 50 other economists won't fix. I hope it won't be soon, but I think it will be Eve's downfall. That's a bit fatalistic, don't you think? I mean, this is a problem in just about every game with a shared namespace, not just EVE. I don't think the MMO market will crash because of it. At worse, there'll have to be a tweaking of the way the economy works so that it is unaffected by rl money conversions; this might include some sort of institutionalization of rl conversion even beyond GTC sales. sounds bad? yeah. but will it kill eve? i think the game's got a lot more going for it for something like this to kill.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:01:00 - [25] come to think of it, if ccp went the OTHER direction, and offered their own SECURE isk buying service, they could get rid of the farmers mahaha Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Tortun Nahme anyone in my corp gets caught buying isk they get ONE warning, after that they get expelled and pod killed It's okay, they give me 10% so I'm looking the other way "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
ALT gF4	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:29:00 - [27] What happens to the ISK that is seized when such black market transactions are uncovered? Is it permanently removed from the economy, or used to replish fundementals such as veldspar or T2 BPOs? If not...can I have it?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:30:00 - [28] The Jove take it Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Corporal Clue Isk selling/Isk buying are simply one the same. They're both part of the problem and both should be punished in the same way, namely if you get caught buying isk you get your account banned for life. I don't understand why CCP seem to wiggle a finger at the people who actually screw up the game, but punish the farmers more heavily. If CCP were really serious about the whole thing, they'd ban the GTC for Isk trading that is rampant in the game. It might be popular, but it has exactly the same impact on the game (people using real life money to buy ISK, even if it has an extra step in it). As I see it, there are 3 categories of people... buyers, Professional sellers, and casual sellers... and they are not the same... Buyers play the game, they buy ISK in an attempt to make up for not being able to make enough via their own efforts... Professional Sellers are (IMO) the biggest problem, and should be the easy ones to track... these are the ISK farmers, the sweatshop owners... they don't really play the game beyond trying to profit from it... Casual Sellers are the folks that find they have a lot of ISK and want to make money... I think these are the ones that would use EBay... It seems to me that the Buyers and Casual Sellers should get a warning... only 1, then banned... if as one of the Eve news blurbs said, sellers were then ripping off the buyer and reselling the ISK as well as everything the buyer had, that would not warrant a warning... As for the Professional sellers, part of the cost of doing business... replacing accounts... and they should have to be on a regular basis... here is my thinking... ISK Buyer <- ISK Sender <- ISK Seller <- ISK Suppliers <- Item Suppliers (ore, minerals and so on)... Each time an ISK Buyer is busted, the supplier of those ISK (the Sender) is also known... That Sender was supplied those ISK by someone... who was supplied the ISK by someone... back to a point where the ISK were "Made" by either a miner, trader, farmer of some sort... each of these ISK transfers are going to be reflected in the wallet/journal of a character along the way... and should be able to be followed by CCP in the database... if I can look at my journal, so can they... Each time a "Buyer" is busted (warned or banned) the supply chain that made those ISK should be banned as well... from the Sender all the way back to the Farmer(s)... Heck, I would not even mind it if the ISK Farmer Protection Forces were added into the mass banning as they are supporting the operation... but I am not going to hold my breath... Yes, I would love to see the weekly numbers posted... "X accounts banned for buying/selling ISK"... no names needed... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:50:00 - [30] Given the recent popularity of the issue, I looked around and found something disturbing: @ some ISK/Gold site : 400M ISK x $34.00 USD @ shatteredcrystal : 90days GTC x $38.99 USD @ the eve's gtc forum: 90days GTC x 375M ISK So it can actually be cheaper... disturbing, no wonder there are so many farmers.
Admiral Derooy Caldari Caldari Special Operations Division	Posted - 2007.07.03 00:10:00 - [31] Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 03/07/2007 00:09:52 Originally by: Caios Edited by: Caios on 02/07/2007 15:55:19 Those sites would be back in a month, unfortunatly. Even in this day and age, there are ways to dodge a dd fired by a legal titan. As long as the profit derived from potential sales outweighs the cost of going underground and popping up later in some new form, the supply side will always exist. I doubt it, as normally in the telecommunication industry such things travel quickly, for example a lawsuit in germany will get info to Deutsche Telekom which again is the supplier for the conns of webhosters. Telekom is very keen on a "clean" appearance and they go against sites proven to be against the law very harsh. this includes also EULA infringements
Nalar Marnith Minmatar Tetranex Consolidated	Posted - 2007.07.03 01:36:00 - [32] Simple solution, don't ban the sellers. Everytime money goes out of the account of a known seller, zero it. Money can go in, but when it gets transfered out it disapears. That'd learn all those lazy ****ers who buy isk.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.03 02:07:00 - [33] Players complain about macroers/farmers. CCP complains about the buyers. Got priorities? CCP will happily ban the few buyers they catch because banned players make far more noise and cause publicity. "Don't buy ISK man! I got WTFPWNED!!!!!". Banned farmers don't do/say anything, they just get another account (probably with the exact same billing info) and keep going. So banning 5 player accounts has far more public effect than a thousand farmers, and costs CCP less in lost monthly revenues.
Secy	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:30:00 - [34] I don't really see the issue with isk sellers/buyers. CCP supports buying ISK through GTCs. Whether you buy from chinaman1 or CCP it doesn't add isk to the economy. CCP doesn't care if you use RL money for advantage in a game world. They just want you to do it through them. If CCP were to get rid of the supported GTC for isk transfers I would whole heartedly support getting rid of gold sellers/buyers. Like it is now there is no point to *****ing about them because if people couldnt buy isk through chinaman1 they would just buy through CCP. It is equally as bad for the in game world. Honestly, the people who sell GTCs for ISK should be thankful for the ISK sellers. If they didn't exist your GTCs wouldn't bring as much ISK.
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:44:00 - [35] tbfh this reminds me of a little war that began in the 80's "the war on drugs". Eliminate the dealers, just made more dealers. Punish the users just made the jails full. In the end 20 some years later its exactly the same. now wipe direct real life equations from this concept and I think i understand the dilemma. Either way I'll continue shooting the farmers i can catch, i just pitty the person that needs to spend real life cash on isk, i mean really come on you dont even get high off it. Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:51:00 - [36] FYI: Many sellers have E-Mail addresses and ICQ ID's posted with their sales. Remember, clicking the adsense costs them money, just dont buy the isk. ______________________________
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.03 04:20:00 - [37] EvE takes time. You can't power level so to speak. Find the FARMERS ban them, keep it up for a few weeks, and a lot of the issue goes away. You can't bring in good money in a ibis as a rule. My guess is they don't have anyone full time looking at this, and eve is just too damn big these days to do it 'when someone calls it to your attention'.
IonHammer Minmatar Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.03 04:34:00 - [38] well at 65USD or so per bill there are a few players who think that 2000USD for a mom aint bad value. Me i will just stick to luck in the T2 bpo's If thats your real life i'm very jealous - Petwraith
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.03 04:37:00 - [39] I've outlined the problem the best that I can. :)
MonwrathDisortium D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.03 05:08:00 - [40] hahahaha, awesome song. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Filthy Pierre Gallente Laughing Fox Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.03 06:48:00 - [41] What Tortun said. It's almost impossible to stop ISK sellers and buyers. The "War on Drugs" is an good analogy as another poster mentioned. All CCP need to do is to sell ISK as well as GTCs - it won't fix the problem of 1 day old players with a 10B ISK kitty but it would do a lot to shut down the ISK seller market. Just make the ISK competitively priced (like, uh, lowest) and give people a monthly, non-accumulating quota that they are permitted to buy. There'd still be that external market but it'd be far smaller than it is now. Problem is, of course, that doing such a thing really does impact CCP's bottom line - but, conversely, it may be perfectly possible that the additional ISK sale income would more than make up for the farmers who dropped their accounts. FP
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:01:00 - [42] How can anyone condemn ISK buyers in a game where the developers promote the buying of ISK provided it is with GTC's which lines ccp pockets with money? sorry makes no sense ISK buying is as much a part of eve it seems as equipping a MWD to pvp. I think as usual everyone gets it wrong. It is easy to blame the buyer but the fact is the buyer does not ruin the game for you. It is the ultra agressive sellers, that spam chat, monopolize in game features etc... Where do the exploiters fit into this? you know the ones who farmed broken complezes for so long money means nothing to them? Or to those lucky enough to abuse the t2 cartels? I learned along time ago that unfortunately you just need to get over it. I used to love lineage2 but the farmers monoplizing everything ruined the game. You know what it was the buyer fault either, it was the balless GM's who refused to take agressive stances on all the macro users and auto play bots. At some point simply put if a character is only mining for more than 72 hours straight it should be enough to simply ban the account for cheating, be it macro/scripted bots, or sharing the account. The free acounts don't exactly help in eve's case and now with the new bonus SP for new character you essentially got free accounts to abuse....
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:09:00 - [43] I would also take exception to the attitude that people who buy ISK are somehow evil or cheating to gain an upperhand. Not everyone is willing to give up life to play these silly games. You cheat me by living in moms basement playing 16 hours a day, an insurmountable obsticle for me to over come, with a zillion more advantages than some player spending a bit of cash to close the gap because they play 4 hours a week. these games are not fair period I am not sure why people feel it is acceptable to gain unfair advantages by immense play time but if joe blow is smart enough to goto work where he makes enough money to cover the time you wanna waste in mindless skilless grinding of cash...somehow he is a cheater... Sorry you also cheat is he does, you know you cannot win if you play equal time to me so you give up life just to win at a silly game? Want a fair game? you are only allowed max 10 hours a week game time ( or what ever the average is ) so when you and I meet we truly find out who is the better and mroe effecient and effective player with their time....
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:24:00 - [44] Originally by: miskagirl I would also take exception to the attitude that people who buy ISK are somehow evil or cheating to gain an upperhand. Not everyone is willing to give up life to play these silly games. You cheat me by living in moms basement playing 16 hours a day, an insurmountable obsticle for me to over come, with a zillion more advantages than some player spending a bit of cash to close the gap because they play 4 hours a week. these games are not fair period I am not sure why people feel it is acceptable to gain unfair advantages by immense play time but if joe blow is smart enough to goto work where he makes enough money to cover the time you wanna waste in mindless skilless grinding of cash...somehow he is a cheater... Sorry you also cheat is he does, you know you cannot win if you play equal time to me so you give up life just to win at a silly game? Want a fair game? you are only allowed max 10 hours a week game time ( or what ever the average is ) so when you and I meet we truly find out who is the better and mroe effecient and effective player with their time.... Hello there ISK Buyer. CONCORD has been notified.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:38:00 - [45] Originally by: miskagirl I think as usual everyone gets it wrong. It is easy to blame the buyer but the fact is the buyer does not ruin the game for you. It is the ultra agressive sellers, that spam chat, monopolize in game features etc... Wrong, its the ISK buyer that is the cause of all this. While i've no love for farmers, it never ceases to amaze me how many people genuinely (and mistakenly), think they are the cause of the problem. Without anyone wanting to buy, there would be no market, no-one to sell too, thus the isk sellers would be wasting their time. Its the fact there are people willing and wanting to buy isk that creates the market. I'm assuming you've heard of supply vs demand - without that, there would be no profit to make, no sweatshops etc. The origions of any business are in a market need (or creating one), for a service or product, without that need, there is no market, and thus no business. Buyers start the chain, and with them the buck stops. (the funny thing to this is i know an isk buyer, who goes out of his way to grief farmers like he's on some crusade - the irony there, amazes me)
Mama Hauler Minmatar LDK Ultima Rati0	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:52:00 - [46] Edited by: Mama Hauler on 03/07/2007 07:52:11 well, i'm pretty sure that ccp dont care about them, CCP is just making more expansions packs (walking in the stations? wtf? more lag?) and stuff to get more ppl into eve since the bigger part of veterans are leaving, but CCP are not doing anything to improve eve from inside.. like to make a group of devs, people or whatever who would have commands like /stealth /move etc, so they just could move around 0.0 systems and see how many isk farmers there're. I've wrote many pettions about isk farmers, including their names, after 2 weeks, they're still in the same system, 23/7 online and farming isks. Thats a bad sign CCP, more you wait the worst it gets.
Jennai The Silent Rage R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Secy I don't really see the issue with isk sellers/buyers. CCP supports buying ISK through GTCs. you don't get GTC sellers spamming all the public trade channels with full screens of crap every 2 minutes, or stripmining belts in empire leaving nothing for legitimate miners.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.03 07:57:00 - [48] The issue of isk sellers/buyers is similar to one of having hookers in your neighborhood, picking up people. They don't really hurt you specifically, but they sort of spoil the entire community and you have a right to be angry about it. We want these people out of our community, CCP.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.07.03 08:34:00 - [49] Originally by: miskagirl rant The ETC does not give ccp any more money, they just let you pay for another ones acc and allow him to give you isk. (i personnally hate that system.) THAT ha a lot less effect on the market than the miner bots that ruins mining for ordenary players or the mission running ones that injects an insanely ammount of isk into the economy. if you feel like you cant compete with your 4h/week without buying isk then honestly GTFO! yes, ccp should probably employ someone to work fulltime with hunting down isk buyers. and i would like to see them being banned too. all i ever heard of is that they loose their money and, if they spent a good part of it, get a negative wallet balance Originally by: CCP Ginger Hello! Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
H'attack	Posted - 2007.07.03 09:32:00 - [50] A nice thing will be to enable player-based police..I'm shure that CCP will figure-it out a way to make this happen...eventually..
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.03 09:53:00 - [51] Originally by: miskagirl I would also take exception to the attitude that people who buy ISK are somehow evil or cheating to gain an upperhand. Not everyone is willing to give up life to play these silly games. You cheat me by living in moms basement playing 16 hours a day, an insurmountable obsticle for me to over come, with a zillion more advantages than some player spending a bit of cash to close the gap because they play 4 hours a week. these games are not fair period I am not sure why people feel it is acceptable to gain unfair advantages by immense play time but if joe blow is smart enough to goto work where he makes enough money to cover the time you wanna waste in mindless skilless grinding of cash...somehow he is a cheater... Sorry you also cheat is he does, you know you cannot win if you play equal time to me so you give up life just to win at a silly game? Want a fair game? you are only allowed max 10 hours a week game time ( or what ever the average is ) so when you and I meet we truly find out who is the better and mroe effecient and effective player with their time.... Take exception all you want. It is cheating. If you buy ISK you're a lame, weaksauce cheater. If you don't like being called a cheater, don't cheat. It's not a difficult concept, even for someone who can produce such a wall of contradictory, self-justifying, self-centred rubbish.
Thiet Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.03 10:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Curzon Dax I've outlined the problem the best that I can. :) Sooo corny!
Mangala Solaris Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.03 12:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Curzon Dax I've outlined the problem the best that I can. :) Nice - downloaded now too :) =================== ------- All of these stars... these vast worlds that remain out of reach. If I could, I would annex other planets.
YaYa Bones	Posted - 2007.07.03 12:42:00 - [54] 'Im gonna loose my house over this game' ~ ISK BUYER Pretty much sums up what I think of it
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.03 12:43:00 - [55] Originally by: voogru Originally by: miskagirl I would also take exception to the attitude that people who buy ISK are somehow evil or cheating to gain an upperhand. Not everyone is willing to give up life to play these silly games. You cheat me by living in moms basement playing 16 hours a day, an insurmountable obsticle for me to over come, with a zillion more advantages than some player spending a bit of cash to close the gap because they play 4 hours a week. these games are not fair period I am not sure why people feel it is acceptable to gain unfair advantages by immense play time but if joe blow is smart enough to goto work where he makes enough money to cover the time you wanna waste in mindless skilless grinding of cash...somehow he is a cheater... Sorry you also cheat is he does, you know you cannot win if you play equal time to me so you give up life just to win at a silly game? Want a fair game? you are only allowed max 10 hours a week game time ( or what ever the average is ) so when you and I meet we truly find out who is the better and mroe effecient and effective player with their time.... Hello there ISK Buyer. CONCORD has been notified. Or seller, some of the isk spammers lately have had pretty good english skills.
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2007.07.03 12:51:00 - [56] Originally by: miskagirl I lose at Eve uh-huh
Chi Canery	Posted - 2007.07.03 12:59:00 - [57] Taking the candystore away from the children only harms the candyman.
Granmethedon III High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.03 13:10:00 - [58] Problem with this is that there will always be somebody sad enough to part with cash for ISK. Whatever you introduce to the game, there's sadly always going to be ways to get around it.
Wyehr Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.07.03 13:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Admiral Derooy Edited by: Admiral Derooy on 03/07/2007 00:09:52 Originally by: Caios Edited by: Caios on 02/07/2007 15:55:19 Those sites would be back in a month, unfortunatly. Even in this day and age, there are ways to dodge a dd fired by a legal titan. As long as the profit derived from potential sales outweighs the cost of going underground and popping up later in some new form, the supply side will always exist. I doubt it, as normally in the telecommunication industry such things travel quickly, for example a lawsuit in germany will get info to Deutsche Telekom which again is the supplier for the conns of webhosters. Telekom is very keen on a "clean" appearance and they go against sites proven to be against the law very harsh. this includes also EULA infringements Are you kidding? No ISP is party to your alleged agreement with CCP (the EULA) and under any western judicial system that I'm aware of, they would be inviting a lawsuit if they took action against you based on a contract which may or may not exist, may or may not be valid, and that they sure as hell aren't part of. [ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs.
ChipMo Caldari The Rat Pack	Posted - 2007.07.03 14:16:00 - [60] CCP want to stop people buying ISK, yet people can spend RL money on GTC's & sell them for ISK... it just seems so hypocritical. $ -> ISK $ -> GTC -> ISK its both cheating imo. Now, on to the macro farmers or whoever it is selling this isk, couldn't they just switch to spending the isk on GTC & trading those for RL money & be within the rules? Has to be the most bizzare system of any MMO I've played. -------------------------- RARR
Captain Puck	Posted - 2007.07.03 14:34:00 - [61] Originally by: YaYa Bones 'Im gonna loose my house over this game' ~ ISK BUYER Pretty much sums up what I think of it rofl Hmmm 1.50 a week for eve-tv or 7bucks for 100mil
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.03 15:23:00 - [62] Originally by: ChipMo $ -> ISK $ -> GTC -> ISK ...couldn't they just switch to spending the isk on GTC & trading those for RL money & be within the rules? I don't think you can do GTC -> $ under the current system.
Acacia Everto State War Academy	Posted - 2007.07.03 16:59:00 - [63] Other than cheaper rates, I never saw how people could actually buy ISK from other sources, when there's a perfectly good way of (indirectly) buying ISK securely supported by CCP. Here's the few easy steps: 1) Buy GTCs 2) Sell GTCs 3) ???? 4) Profit! While it might cost you more than buying from <insert farmer here>, you're paying that extra money for the protection of your assets and wallet balance, as well as CCP's protection from scams even while still reaping similar benefits with the higher GTC prices. If you really need ISK that bad, GTCs are the way to go.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:01:00 - [64] also note, gtc sales do not support farmers, that alone makes them superior Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:26:00 - [65] Edited by: miskagirl on 03/07/2007 17:28:46 Quote: if you feel like you cant compete with your 4h/week without buying isk then honestly GTFO! Maybe you got it wrong. If you cannot handle people who buy isk then you should GTFO? I mean gee you can;t deal with some player who plays 1/4 the time you do? Then you suck. ISK doesnt make the player atleast not in eve so much more matter alot mroe than ISK, time to play is a far bigger advantage. but alas this is a game why do you care so much if someone buy isk with their hard earned money or makes it being a lazy momma's boy playing all day? Shut up play the game, i would bet most isk buyers end up being easy kills because they do not know how to play the game well. PS who ever tried to argue buyer are the problem is still wrong. NO supplier = no buyer. NO buyer doesnt mean people will not create supplies incase buyers show up. The former is an absolute solution. Also the buyers do not ruin the game the suppliers do. In the end it still comes down to CCP being at fault. Most of the farmer will macro script the game, being the game is to simple to play, they have poor tools to detect auto play, they have poor tools to track active played accounts ( over 72 hours straight being played = offense of some sort ), and they are far to "cautious" needing 100% undeniable proof someone is using a bot to play before they take action. Again anyone who has played lineage2 knows exactly what I am talking about you can indentify bots playing with like 100% certainty but the GM's instead send chats to verify if a person is present and these programs all send warning beeps so that someone will come and respond. 2 week trial account is also far to long imho. 5 days and you will know if you like eve enough to buy it or not. Most people will know after the second day. Oh ya again GTC is money to CCP because the people who sell ISK to get GTC's for one reason or another would not be paying for their subsciption with those traded GTC if they were not able to sell in game ISK for GTC. Stop trying to rationalize it, it is CCP sanctioned cheating the same as ISK buying is if you want to call both cheating. Anyway you slice it ends up being bad because peopel monopolize and exploit the game to make ISK to sell which makes the game worse. We have all seen or read about it in some function. The can humpers who have it times to the second, the complex farmers, the macro miners, yada yada yada they all do one thing which is degrade the ability for real players to play and enjoy the game.
Jasai Kameron Setenta Corp Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:36:00 - [66] Originally by: miskagirl Edited by: miskagirl on 03/07/2007 17:28:46Oh ya again GTC is money to CCP because the people who sell ISK to get GTC's for one reason or another would not be paying for their subsciption with those traded GTC if they were not able to sell in game ISK for GTC. Stop trying to rationalize it, it is CCP sanctioned cheating the same as ISK buying is if you want to call both cheating. The guy's right on this one. GTCs work very well for CCP because they expand the EVE market to two types of players who might well otherwise not play. 1) The player who has no or very little rl cash to pay for their subscription, but lots of playtime. 2) The player who has little playtime, but enough rl cash to buy GTCs and trade them for isk. If you banned GTC sales as they currently are, you'd probably lose a lot of players in the first situation and quite possibly a lot in the second situation, too. CCP obviously don't want to lose those customers, which is why they keep the GTC system up. Whether or not the system is in the best interests of EVE, well, I'm sure everyone has their opinion on that.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:40:00 - [67] So long as there is someone to buy something, there will be someone to supply it. Its simple economics, it is impossible to kill a product without destroying the demand. Destroying the supply only makes the demand higher, and makes them make MORE money in the end, really. Take macro mining for example, if CCP seeded the market with trillions of each mineral at 1 ISK a piece, macros would die overnight. (Along with miners, so don't all jump on the bandwagon at once...)
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.03 17:40:00 - [68] Originally by: miskagirl Edited by: miskagirl on 03/07/2007 17:28:46 Quote: if you feel like you cant compete with your 4h/week without buying isk then honestly GTFO! Maybe you got it wrong. If you cannot handle people who buy isk then you should GTFO? I mean gee you can;t deal with some player who plays 1/4 the time you do? Then you suck. ISK doesnt make the player atleast not in eve so much more matter alot mroe than ISK, time to play is a far bigger advantage. but alas this is a game why do you care so much if someone buy isk with their hard earned money or makes it being a lazy momma's boy playing all day? Shut up play the game, i would bet most isk buyers end up being easy kills because they do not know how to play the game well. PS who ever tried to argue buyer are the problem is still wrong. NO supplier = no buyer. NO buyer doesnt mean people will not create supplies incase buyers show up. The former is an absolute solution. Also the buyers do not ruin the game the suppliers do. In the end it still comes down to CCP being at fault. Most of the farmer will macro script the game, being the game is to simple to play, they have poor tools to detect auto play, they have poor tools to track active played accounts ( over 72 hours straight being played = offense of some sort ), and they are far to "cautious" needing 100% undeniable proof someone is using a bot to play before they take action. Again anyone who has played lineage2 knows exactly what I am talking about you can indentify bots playing with like 100% certainty but the GM's instead send chats to verify if a person is present and these programs all send warning beeps so that someone will come and respond. 2 week trial account is also far to long imho. 5 days and you will know if you like eve enough to buy it or not. Most people will know after the second day. Oh ya again GTC is money to CCP because the people who sell ISK to get GTC's for one reason or another would not be paying for their subsciption with those traded GTC if they were not able to sell in game ISK for GTC. Stop trying to rationalize it, it is CCP sanctioned cheating the same as ISK buying is if you want to call both cheating. Anyway you slice it ends up being bad because peopel monopolize and exploit the game to make ISK to sell which makes the game worse. We have all seen or read about it in some function. The can humpers who have it times to the second, the complex farmers, the macro miners, yada yada yada they all do one thing which is degrade the ability for real players to play and enjoy the game. I can handle it. I can mercilessly persecute every ISK farmer I encounter. I can refuse to buy ISK or tolerate those who do. Oh... and I can post with my main, you limp, cowardly, cheating ISK-buyer. Your feeble excuse cuts no ice with me. I have to go to work, I have a life and I have obligations. I play when I can. I don't feel so threatened that I need to buy ISk, just like when I go down to the park and play frisbee with my friends I don't need to give them money to not count the times when I miss. If you really think ISK buying is OK, say so with your main.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.03 19:04:00 - [69] Edited by: Cruthensis on 03/07/2007 19:03:51 Originally by: miskagirl miskagirl's long post Well said and good luck to you! (I do hope the banstick looms large in your main's rear view mirror) You made a choice to spend little time playing Eve and lots of time earning RL money. Other players choose to play for more of their time and perhaps earn less RL money. Now you want to leverage your RL advantage against those in the game by using your RL money to get more in-game money, thus eradicating one of the fundamental founding principles of games - that the only thing that matters is how you play and the decisions you make in the game. How 'bout we have nice game of Chess: "I wanna take your Rook" "Well...you can't. None of your pieces can even get to it right now." "But I want to." "Well...you can't. If you've the skill, use a tactic and take it in a few moves!" "But I can't, you're good at this game." "Well, practice and play more and get better...hold on, where'd my rook go?! And why have you got ANOTHER QUEEN!? WTF is going on here?! " "I errr... paid someone to errr... sort that out for me. That ok? " "NO! THAT IS NOT FRICKIN WELL 'OK' ! " Get my point? EDIT: your != you're
Karash Amerius Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.07.03 19:14:00 - [70] The only way to 'fix' it is to serialize each "isk" in the game...a task monumental in coding (for tracking purposes), and wholly unpractical. Merc Blog
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 19:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Cruthensis Chess Example I like to use the monopoly example. You get in a game of monopoly with 3 other people. Your losing hand over first, you get your friend to go to the store and buy another monopoly board. He brings it over, you open the box and take out all of the money all out of view of the other players. Then you proceed to whoop their asses with a sudden amount of unlimited money.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 19:41:00 - [72] Edited by: Derovius Vaden on 03/07/2007 19:40:21 Originally by: voogru Originally by: Cruthensis Chess Example I like to use the monopoly example. You get in a game of monopoly with 3 other people. Your losing hand over first, you get your friend to go to the store and buy another monopoly board. He brings it over, you open the box and take out all of the money all out of view of the other players. Then you proceed to whoop their asses with a sudden amount of unlimited money. Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. I'm actually stumped. This must be how Richard Dawkins feels. "So called ISK sellers" - Are you implying that there might not actually be any? Go back to sleep everyone - we were all imagining it... ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game - Well ISK sellers sell ISK. Some types of ISK farmer do generate ISK by carrying out NPC missions. Are those 23/7, complex ratting 'players' out in a protected piece of 0.0 spending lots of ISK we don't know about. Is there some enormous ISK sink (apart from the 1b per week) they have to contend with out there? Of course there isn't, otherwise they'd be somewhere else doing something more profitable. The ISK those farmers generate is coming from nothing and after the initial cost of ships, fitting and skills, it's ALL profit and it's ALL inflation. ISK is being added to the economy. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. - It is very different. If someone farmed ISK and randomly (implied in your statement) gave out their ISK (why would they? ), those who benefitted would not have had an active part in acquiring that ISK. Sure they'd get an advantage, but through some bizarre stroke of luck, not through whining to Daddy to get his credit card out. Derovius Vaden: Have you, or any other characters you play, bought ISK for real money from an ISK selling website? (There. I asked. I think it's safe to say we're all thinking it)
dhav kincaide Caldari Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:29:00 - [74] This may be repeated, as I gave up on reading the thread after the bickering back and forth started. That said... some food for thought. For CCP to take any regular and noteworthy action on both sellers and buyers, they need to spend CS man-hours to do it. Considering what I've heard over time about the length of some people's ticket waits, this doesn't seem to be terribly prudent. While the whole buying/selling thing annoys the crap out of me, I want them taking care of my broken character/ship/mission before they spend time combing through eBay and spreadsheets from their logs trying to find people who buy isk. If they've got nothing better to do, then by all means go crazy. Until ticket times for all kinds of issues are less than a day out, forget it. If you 'did' have a team that did nothing but slam sales accounts, then you'd drive the price up, as supply would dwindle. But, that goes back to spending man-hours. If you go through and smack around or ban buyers, you do it one at a time, and that's a painfully inefficient process. Unless you have a link from eBay where some nub used their account name for their eBay purchase, you also are then left to assume that the transaction is an actual purchase, so (in theory) you'd spend more time verifying the transactions. You will never dry up the craving for isk/plat/credits/etc. More money = more uber stuff; getting phat lewts is one of the main driving forces and draws behind almost every MMO on the market. A fair amount of people will do it the honorable way; a growing number want instant gratification. Short of an enforceable law being brought online, (or some suit in a black helicoptor or Suburban showing up and telling you to stop), it's not going to go away. I could rant and rave about the whole equasion for hours, but will leave it here. -dhav kincaide QI nooblet
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Cruthensis "So called ISK sellers" - Are you implying that there might not actually be any? Go back to sleep everyone - we were all imagining it... You know those people that buy GTC with ISK? Under your definition, they are ISK sellers. I've bought GTC with my ISK, does that make me an ISK Seller? Damn straight. Does that mean that CCP is going to kick in my preverbal door and ban me from EVE? No, they got their cut (infact, all of it), so I'm a legal ISK seller. I win? Quote: Are those 23/7, complex ratting 'players' out in a protected piece of 0.0 spending lots of ISK we don't know about. Is there some enormous ISK sink (apart from the 1b per week) they have to contend with out there? Of course there isn't, otherwise they'd be somewhere else doing something more profitable. You're complaining because someone found how to make themselves rich and defend their claim? WTF do you think half the Alliance wars are about? If all of 0.0 was full of useless, valueless crap, no one would leave high-sec. I fail to see what your argument is, I don't see Alliances selling ISK (except maybe GTC-buying). So all those Alliance "farmers" who grind away to get another Titan a minimal effect on the inflation. The true problem is that this game has been running for x number of years, and it is easier to make ISK than it is to lose it. The market is flooded because everyone is making ISK, maybe CCP should ban people from making more than a million a day for the next year and bring the ISK volume back down? Lets see how much fun that is. Quote: The ISK those farmers generate is coming from nothing and after the initial cost of ships, fitting and skills, it's ALL profit and it's ALL inflation. ISK is being added to the economy. How is this any different than joe-blow the mission runner? OMG, he's used the same Raven for the last 4 missions, QUICK CCP, CONCORDOKEN HIM! Quote: It is very different. If someone farmed ISK and randomly (implied in your statement) gave out their ISK (why would they? ), those who benefitted would not have had an active part in acquiring that ISK. Sure they'd get an advantage, but through some bizarre stroke of luck, not through whining to Daddy to get his credit card out. So, do you stand outside the bank and whine that their are people who have higher balances, and demand that the bank stop dealing with them? Grow up, you're bent out of shape because someone wants to pay their way to the top; welcome to ***** reality chief, I hope you mature a little more before you get a real job, or you'll never survive in the corporate world. Quote:** Derovius Vaden: Have you, or any other characters you play, bought ISK for real money from an ISK selling website? No, I make enough ISK just playing the game. I'm also a University student with too much time on my hands. If some corporate bigwig wants to play EVE through his platinum VISA, I really don't care. He'll lose it all because he has no concept of value, and be back below me soon enough.
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:50:00 - [76] Quote: Well said and good luck to you! (I do hope the banstick looms large in your main's rear view mirror) You made a choice to spend little time playing Eve and lots of time earning RL money. Other players choose to play for more of their time and perhaps earn less RL money. Now you want to leverage your RL advantage against those in the game by using your RL money to get more in-game money, thus eradicating one of the fundamental founding principles of games - that the only thing that matters is how you play and the decisions you make in the game. How 'bout we have nice game of Chess: "I wanna take your Rook" "Well...you can't. None of your pieces can even get to it right now." "But I want to." "Well...you can't. If you've the skill, use a tactic and take it in a few moves!" "But I can't, you're good at this game." "Well, practice and play more and get better...hold on, where'd my rook go?! And why have you got ANOTHER QUEEN!? WTF is going on here?! " "I errr... paid someone to errr... sort that out for me. That ok? " "NO! THAT IS NOT FRICKIN WELL 'OK' ! " Get my point? why would I be banned? I don;t buy ISK, I am simply pointing out the flaws in the arguments and the hypocrisy of most of them, just like I am about to point out the flaw in yours should I be banned for it? Let's play that nice game of chess you suggested. "Yawn man it is getting late I goto go to work tomorrow and i think it looks like you're pretty much losing" "okay have a good nite see you tomorrow" Next day... "Hey I got some time lets resume that game of chess we were playing last night" "resume? what game? I won that game after you went to bed. I stayed up playing and checked mated you in about 6 more moves" "what? but i wasn;t there to play and make my moves?" "so it isn;t my fault I got more time to play than you, why should my progress be impeded because you had to sleep" Welcome to eve, and welcome to understanding why ISK buying isn;t the only nor biggest way to gain and undeserved unfair advantage. Really ISK buying in eve isnt a big deal. All it does is put people into the game who might not be able to because of time restrictions. you want more people to fight right? The issue is the farming disrupting the game, IF CCP sold ISK directly for very cheap there would be no more farmers. Those who chose to buy it would those who didnt wouldn't. Time would no longer be the massive edge it currently is in eve.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:55:00 - [77] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. Actually it does. What do you think these are: 1. Mission rewards 2. NPC Bounties Ah, yeah. ISK Faucets.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 20:58:00 - [78] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. Actually it does. What do you think these are: 1. Mission rewards 2. NPC Bounties Ah, yeah. ISK Faucets. Ya, so lets turn them off so no one can make ISK in game anymore. What you're suggesting is punishing everyone who wants to make money because less than 1% of the 30,000 players who are active in EVE at any one time are really good at making money. So good in fact, they have extra to get rid off. Hell, while we're at it, lets delete your nice little Space Yacht, it will help reduce inflation too.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:12:00 - [79] Edited by: voogru on 03/07/2007 21:13:10 Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. Actually it does. What do you think these are: 1. Mission rewards 2. NPC Bounties Ah, yeah. ISK Faucets. Ya, so lets turn them off so no one can make ISK in game anymore. What you're suggesting is punishing everyone who wants to make money because less than 1% of the 30,000 players who are active in EVE at any one time are really good at making money. So good in fact, they have extra to get rid off. Hell, while we're at it, lets delete your nice little Space Yacht, it will help reduce inflation too. Base price of the yacht is 0 ISK. Meaning if I blew it up, I wouldnt even get insurance on it. Try again. Bounties should be replaced with tags. Tags that can be used in missions for rewards, so there would be a market value for them, a player market. Rather than an arbitrary set amount of ISK every time an NPC goes pop.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:15:00 - [80] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your analogy is flawed, seeing as so-called ISK sellers don't make ISK magically appear in the game, they just farm it and trade it for something of value not in the market. This is NO different than someone ISK farming and just giving out billions to new players. Actually it does. What do you think these are: 1. Mission rewards 2. NPC Bounties Ah, yeah. ISK Faucets. Ya, so lets turn them off so no one can make ISK in game anymore. What you're suggesting is punishing everyone who wants to make money because less than 1% of the 30,000 players who are active in EVE at any one time are really good at making money. So good in fact, they have extra to get rid off. Hell, while we're at it, lets delete your nice little Space Yacht, it will help reduce inflation too. Base price of the yacht is 0 ISK. Meaning if I blew it up, I wouldnt even get insurance on it. Bounties should be replaced with tags. Tags that can be used in missions for rewards, so there would be a market value for them, a player market. Rather than an arbitrary set amount of ISK every time an NPC goes pop. Your yacht is (almost) one of a kind, meaning that it has an unlimited ceiling for resale. You could asking 200 billion ISK for it, and get it. Want to reduce inflation, do just that; auction it to some money bags ISK farmer and give the ISK to TomB to delete. Oh but hey, that would involve you giving something up we can't have that, we have to make up fanciful ideas about punishing the ISK sellers/buyers that leave everyone else unharmed.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:18:00 - [81] Edited by: voogru on 03/07/2007 21:20:09 Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your yacht is (almost) one of a kind, meaning that it has an unlimited ceiling for resale. You could asking 200 billion ISK for it, and get it. Want to reduce inflation, do just that; auction it to some money bags ISK farmer and give the ISK to TomB to delete. Oh but hey, that would involve you giving something up we can't have that, we have to make up fanciful ideas about punishing the ISK sellers/buyers that leave everyone else unharmed. 200B is nothing, the entire farmer population of EVE probably generates that much ISK in a week. Look how much the prices have fallen on ISK. However, CCP hiring GM's to actually agressivly going after farmers on a constant basis, maybe that's something I'd give up the yacht for. Also, the ISK the yacht would be sold for came from a player, not CCP. Try again. Originally by: Derovius Vaden Oh but hey, that would involve you giving something up we can't have that, we have to make up fanciful ideas about punishing the ISK sellers/buyers that leave everyone else unharmed. Are you implying that punishing the ISK sellers and buyers is a bad thing?
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:26:00 - [82] Edited by: Derovius Vaden on 03/07/2007 21:27:20 Originally by: voogru Edited by: voogru on 03/07/2007 21:17:38 Originally by: Derovius Vaden Your yacht is (almost) one of a kind, meaning that it has an unlimited ceiling for resale. You could asking 200 billion ISK for it, and get it. Want to reduce inflation, do just that; auction it to some money bags ISK farmer and give the ISK to TomB to delete. Oh but hey, that would involve you giving something up we can't have that, we have to make up fanciful ideas about punishing the ISK sellers/buyers that leave everyone else unharmed. 200B is nothing, the entire farmer population of EVE probably generates that much ISK in a week. Look how much the prices have fallen on ISK. However, CCP hiring GM's to actually agressivly going after farmers on a constant basis, maybe that's something I'd give up the yacht for. Also, the ISK the yacht would be sold for came from a player, not CCP. Try again. You seem to know alot more about these farmers than you should for just an observer there Voogru. And yes, the ISK could come from the player, but giving it back to a CCP Dev to delete from the system would remove it from the game. Inflation is inevitable in all MMORPG's, and its not due in any part to the Currency Farmers; they simply help it along. Dev's could just as easily adjust the sinks to counter the ISK farming, and level the entire economy out, but that means Joe-Newb will be forever under the thumb of the system and quit out of frustration. This is discussion is moot, there is nothing that can be done to the system, and as such, nothing will be done. If CCP gets a break and catches these people in the act, they get punished. In the same breath, someone could just as easily setup someone they don't like with an ISK buying conspiracy. I.e. I could send you a billion ISK for nothing from a GTC-fueled secondary account for nothing (1 billion is pocket change compared to what someone people have in their wallets.), tip off CCP and get you banned. And if you're right, at 200 billion a week, they could easily silence everyone who makes their lives difficult; and yet they don't. Quote: Are you implying that punishing the ISK sellers and buyers is a bad thing? Yes and no. Yes because they provide a service that some players actually want, and no because I'm sick of listening you whine like a PMS'ing woman everytime someone starts a thread like this. If I didn't fear getting banned, I think I'd have fun selling ISK; would make all my boring hours of mining and watching YouTube actually worth something.
Guvnor RBM Welsh Commanders 3asy Company	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:31:00 - [83] Theres ISK Sellers spaming the "macrointel" channel now... Guess there trying to fight back with been pain's in the asses, _______________________________________________
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Derovius Vaden You seem to know alot more about these farmers than you should for just an observer there Voogru. That's what happens when you go after them for nearly 2 years strait as an EVE profession, and I used my knowledge of them to become rich. My very oddball profession is a very profitable one. Originally by: Derovius Vaden I could send you a billion ISK for nothing from a GTC-fueled secondary account for nothing (1 billion is pocket change compared to what someone people have in their wallets.), tip off CCP and get you banned. Again, wrong answer. If my wallet suddenly rose by 2 billion ISK, I'd look up the name of say, "CCP Hellmar", "Give Money" enter in "2000000000" and hit OK. And with the amount of ISK in my wallet, it would be very silly for me to "buy" 2 billion ISK.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 21:46:00 - [85] Originally by: voogru That's what happens when you go after them for nearly 2 years strait as an EVE profession, and I used my knowledge of them to become rich. My very oddball profession is a very profitable one. So you're no better than them for exploiting someone/something to get ahead. Now that we've gotten this off your chest, lets not waste my time further talking about you. Quote: Again, wrong answer. If my wallet suddenly rose by 2 billion ISK, I'd look up the name of say, "CCP Hellmar", "Give Money" enter in "2000000000" and hit OK. And with the amount of ISK in my wallet, it would be very silly for me to "buy" 2 billion ISK. Who says you'd notice 2 billion ISK? You said itself, rather *****ishly, that you have more than enough ISK in your wallet. And I used you as an example, because I can't think of any other preachy, self-righteous losers off the top of my head. And using myself would not have had the same impact, yes?
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:13:00 - [86] Originally by: Derovius Vaden So you're no better than them for exploiting someone/something to get ahead. Now that we've gotten this off your chest, lets not waste my time further talking about you. Actually I do the same thing that the people who kill farmers do. I make them take losses. But on a larger scale. I don't see you flaming the people who blow up "macroers". Originally by: Derovius Vaden Who says you'd notice 2 billion ISK? You said itself, rather ***ishly, that you have more than enough ISK in your wallet. And I used you as an example Maybe I look at my wallet more then once a week? Originally by:** Derovius Vaden because I can't think of any other preachy, self-righteous losers off the top of my head. And using myself would not have had the same impact, yes? Common now, you can do better then that.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:21:00 - [87] Originally by: voogru Actually I do the same thing that the people who kill farmers do. I make them take losses. But on a larger scale. I don't see you flaming the people who blow up "macroers". Then you need to open your eyes, I flame everyone. And on a more personal note, I've been harassed so many times by these so called anti-macro gangs that I've turned on auto reject chat invites and don't even check my EVE mail anymore. "OMG, its a HULK in HIGH SEC; MACRO MINER AIYEEEE!". Play the game however you want, but leave me alone ffs. You're not CCP, you're not an acceptable method of enforcing the EULA, and you've mislabelled me. I'm already not jet can mining and in a noob corp to get away from the idiots in this game, but you still follow me around like I have a string of garlic sausage hanging out my back pocket. Quote: Maybe I look at my wallet more then once a week? They you don't have as much money as you seem to tout. Quote: Common now, you can do better then that. Not without getting banned.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:32:00 - [88] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Yes, you should, because you're the only on who backs these sort of arguements well beyond the limits of reason and/or common sense. I love how you can't argue with me without insulting me. Perhaps I should stop feeding the troll. /me puts away troll food. Thats because the normal route of proving you wrong doesn't seem to be penetrating your asshat shield. I'm forced to lower myself to a level which you can understand and relate to.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.07.03 22:46:00 - [89] OK let me see if I get this: 1) Player A is very good at making ISK so he trade some ISK for GTC. 2) Player B sucks at making ISK so he trades some GTC for ISK. 3) Then player A and player B forumwar about it? o>
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.04 05:57:00 - [90] Originally by: voogru Originally by: Derovius Vaden Yes, you should, because you're the only on who backs these sort of arguements well beyond the limits of reason and/or common sense. I love how you can't argue with me without insulting me. Perhaps I should stop feeding the troll. /me puts away troll food. Hes defended isk farmers before, I figure hes involved somehow, keep up the good work voogru, at least SOMEONE cough CCP cough is doing something proactive.
Avangel	Posted - 2007.07.04 06:40:00 - [91] Heh, why is buying ISK illegal, and why doesn't CCP just open up an ISK store instead of selling GTCs? Well there's a decent reason. Grown-up corporate bigshot with lots of credit cards pulling in $180k USD a year wants to fly around in a spaceship game blowing the hell out of things. He wants to buy ISK because he doesn't have the available time to farm the ISK, but buying the ISK is illegal. Young 16 year old kid with all summer, spring break, winter break, and all night after school available has nothing to do but play eve (hey, he's a fatty and can't get a girl! cut the kid a break!). He sits around playing eve for hours and hours farming ISK. Suddenly his parents cut him off of the credit card because they want his fat ass to get some exercise. CCP has suddenly lost 2 customers because the corporate manager doesn't have the time to grind ISK, and can't afford the big ship to blow **** up in. He loses interest and leaves. The kid, who can no longer play the game because mommy and daddy took away his money, and he's too much of a lazy ass to get a job, leaves because he can't afford to play anymore. The solution? Let the corporate guy with too much money pay for the kid's play time in addition to his own. In effect, people who buy and sell GTCs would likely be customers that eve would lose if the system wasn't in place. All the average joes that hate ISK buyers and sellers, because they don't make enough money to blow it on ISK, but work too much to grind huge quantities of ISK rant and rave against this because they're getting jipped. However, the GTC buyer can now play his favorite game, and the GTC seller can get rid of some of that disposable income and feel like a god as he DDs goonswarm. This isn't a question of ethics, fairness, or legality on CCP's part. These policies are in place to generate a profit, and are an indication that there are some pretty damned smart people behind the scenes at CCP.
Chi Canery	Posted - 2007.07.04 11:26:00 - [92] Originally by: ChipMo CCP want to stop people buying ISK, yet people can spend RL money on GTC's & sell them for ISK... it just seems so hypocritical. $ -> ISK $ -> GTC -> ISK its both cheating imo. quote] However ccp do not spam the channels to death to get you to buy the GTC. Every GTC bought takes one potential customer away from the banner, spammer, mailing ISK sellers.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.07.04 11:40:00 - [93] Originally by: Avangel However, the GTC buyer can now play his favorite game, and the GTC seller can get rid of some of that disposable income and feel like a god as he DDs goonswarm. Yet this only works as long as the 16 year old's favourite game is one where he gets his hard-earned ship blown up by corporate bigshots in their US$ paid motherships. this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Aseir Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.04 13:03:00 - [94] Edited by: Aseir on 04/07/2007 13:07:50 The main difference between GTC selling, and isk farmers is this: ISK farmers severely damage the game economy, selling GTCs for ISK doesn't. Why? The isk you get from GTCs come from other players, who actually play this game to have fun, and not with profit in mind, so they won't mindlessly generate ISK, putting more and more into the game, causing an accelerated mudflation. The ISK farmers' only goal is to generate as much ISK as possible, selling ore to stations and NPC corps buying it, thus putting more and more ISK into the game. These ISK farmers also ruin mining for other players, as far as I've heard. One more thing: GTC selling gives CCP more money to spend on marketing and development of the game. P.S. I actually think the GTC sales is a good idea, although there are some problems with it (eg: ISK farmers buying these with the ISK they farm, in order to not pay subscription fees) In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Cruthensis Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:43:00 - [95] Originally by: miskagirl "Yawn man it is getting late I goto go to work tomorrow and i think it looks like you're pretty much losing" "okay have a good nite see you tomorrow" Next day... "Hey I got some time lets resume that game of chess we were playing last night" "resume? what game? I won that game after you went to bed. I stayed up playing and checked mated you in about 6 more moves" "what? but i wasn;t there to play and make my moves?" "so it isn;t my fault I got more time to play than you, why should my progress be impeded because you had to sleep" I actually accept this point. It's a strong argument. There must be a lot of players who do get frustrated that they can't progress or earn ISK as fast as they'd like due to their RL commitments. I sometimes do myself, but then I'm always training skills and I see that process as being more important to my character at the moment, so I'm not too bothered by that. My counter would be that there are only 23 hours in the day in which a really committed player might play. Your wealth in real money, however, is potentially without any meaningful limit. Also, any actions taken by other players, in your absence from the game, are at least still effort and time invested within the game as opposed to money spent outside of it.

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