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Nox Solaris
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Posted - 2007.07.02 21:26:00 -
[31]
Try ammo... considerably less than 12%... no way in any way of looking at it that ammo (except a few very specific types) can even remotely break even, much less turn a profit.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.07.02 21:27:00 -
[32]
Tech 2 modules are super cheap these days. Invention is a sucess for this PvPer.
RISE Recruitment Thread
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TGR Reaper
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Posted - 2007.07.02 22:34:00 -
[33]
exactly what i am saying. invention was meant to be profit driven not profit loss. its replacing the praised lottery system which is better because you at lease have a chance at making money with a crappy BPO and instead ur losing with invention.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.02 22:52:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: TGR Reaper
exactly what i am saying. invention was meant to be profit driven not profit loss. its replacing the praised lottery system which is better because you at lease have a chance at making money with a crappy BPO and instead ur losing with invention.
I'm making plenty of money with invention. I dunno what you are doing wrong if you can't. I'm even making money from recon cruisers which the collective wisdom of the forums said was impossible.
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Ozzie Asrail
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:03:00 -
[35]
I havn't invented since revII so dunno about the patch but previously i was doign alot of bcu's, missle launchers, shield\armour tank stuff and mwds\scrams\etc and it was working a charm.
Has it really been nerfed that much? Alot of T2 stuff was about right imho, good T2 bpo's still made plenty profit but invention had driven the price down a fair chunk.
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Lord Frost
Minmatar
The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dr Ming
But you ARE using your budget to pay for datacores. Even if your getting them from agents.
Seriously.
Their part of your budget, because you could have sold the asset and used the isk for some other profit making activity.
If your can't turn a profit off of invention with purchased datacores: DON'T INVENT ANYTHING!!! At all. Ever. Unless you like throwing money away.
If you need 'free' datacores to turn a profit, your not turning a profit. What your really doing is taking your income being generated by having an R&D agent and using it to provide a subsidy for your invention.
After playing EVE, it no longer boggles my mind that most small businesses fail. Not when there are so many folks that seem hell bent on taking a sum of their assets, and adding labor to reduce their total value.
They way I see it... you have 3 options.
player A - sells all his datacores once a month... pure profit
player B - buys datacores to invent t2 bpcs, makes t2 items, sells items. he has to make sure he keeps a profit. as he is INVESTING in purchases of parts to help invent.
player C - uses his own data cores to invent, makes t2... he has a much bigger profit than player B
HYPOTHEOTICALS... say one month of data cores worth 100mil
player A - makes 100 mil a month
player B - spends 100mil, creates t2, returns profit of 500mil
player C - creates t2, returns profit of 600mil
The outcome, those selling datacores are losing out on making a bigger business for them, and those buy datacores are losing out on their profits. Player C is a smart business man, as he develops his product from as little cost as possible.
It goes for all components... if you build it, its worth more. If you mine it, you cut your costs. If you sold what you mined, you lessen what profit you could have. If you want to take the long road, be my guest.
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Deva Blackfire
Citadel of dark arts
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:11:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/07/2007 23:11:15
After rev2 i ran:
- ishtar invention (calculated it at abt 8%, got result after 10 or 11 tries).
- about 200-300 module invention jobs - success more-less 40%
Seems fine tho i dont see any difference by using
the "invention hardwiring".
As for the thing above:
Player C then needs to do same as player B, because he can invent and produce faster than he gets datacores. Sad but true :)
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TGR Reaper
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/07/2007 23:11:15
After rev2 i ran:
- ishtar invention (calculated it at abt 8%, got result after 10 or 11 tries).
- about 200-300 module invention jobs - success more-less 40%
Seems fine tho i dont see any difference by using
the "invention hardwiring".
As for the thing above:
Player C then needs to do same as player B, because he can invent and produce faster than he gets datacores. Sad but true :)
no its doesnt seem liek it makes a difference.
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Kerkar
Confederation of Red Moon
Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:28:00 -
[39]
Personalyl i love invention, price of most TII gear has dropped to reasonable levels. 1400 howie IIs are a nice example, price is about 1/3rd what it was before invention :D
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NIkis
Minmatar
W33D Corp.
O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:32:00 -
[40]
It's a flop until more agents providing mech eng datacores are added (they should be the most frequent agents, and instead they are the least frequent). Some changes are made only on the surface it seems.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:45:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lord Frost
HYPOTHEOTICALS... say one month of data cores worth 100mil
player A - makes 100 mil a month
player B - spends 100mil, creates t2, returns profit of 500mil
player C - creates t2, returns profit of 600mil
After one month:
Player A -
*receives datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Datacores)
*sells*
Assets worth 100M (ISK)
Player B -
*purchases datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Purchased Datacores)
*invents*
Assets worth 600M (T2 gear)
*sells*
Assets worth 600M (ISK)
Player C -
*receives datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Datacores)
*invents*
Assets worth 600M (T2 gear)
*sells*
Assets worth 600M (ISK)
Player B and C both turn 100M of assets into 600M of assets, and thus both have a profit of 500M.
Whether the asset you initially convert into datacores is ISK or RP is irrelevant, their value is determined by the market.
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You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means |
Trak Cranker
Serenity Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.02 23:57:00 -
[42]
I think Lord Frost should have his corp put a space between the h and the o.
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NIkis
Minmatar
W33D Corp.
O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.07.03 09:44:00 -
[43]
Edited by: NIkis on 03/07/2007 09:50:53
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Lord Frost
HYPOTHEOTICALS... say one month of data cores worth 100mil
player A - makes 100 mil a month
player B - spends 100mil, creates t2, returns profit of 500mil
player C - creates t2, returns profit of 600mil
After one month:
Player A -
*receives datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Datacores)
*sells*
Assets worth 100M (ISK)
Player B -
*purchases datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Purchased Datacores)
*invents*
Assets worth 600M (T2 gear)
*sells*
Assets worth 600M (ISK)
Player C -
*receives datacores*
Assets worth 100M (Datacores)
*invents*
Assets worth 600M (T2 gear)
*sells*
Assets worth 600M (ISK)
Player B and C both turn 100M of assets into 600M of assets, and thus both have a profit of 500M.
Whether the asset you initially convert into datacores is ISK or RP is irrelevant, their value is determined by the market.
Yea very hypothetical.. especially that profit figure of 600 mil isk starting from 100 mil worth of assets (including datacores)
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Detrol
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.03 10:24:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Detrol on 03/07/2007 10:23:42
Originally by: Audri Fisher
well.... lets make a hypothetical scenario.
100 data cores are being produced a day. ( nice round number )
70 of those are being bought by inventors.
30 of those are produced by inventors and used in house
now, those 30 who produce datacores and build in house get "smart" and simply sell th data cores instead of inventing with them.
Now, what happens?
the tech II item in question availibility goes down by 30%
The price of the tech II mod goes up by about 20%, and total sales go down by 10% ( whole supply and demand thing here, some people start using named mods which are now cheaper )
I can't follow your reasoning there. Why would the availability of the tech2 item in question go down? The datacores that get sold extra now will be used by other inventors to build the same item. If someone buys them, he plans to use them for invention. If it's done by the guy who produced them or the guy who bought them, doesn't really make a difference.
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.03 10:28:00 -
[45]
Most T2 stuff is 50-80% cheaper than it was 6 months ago.
I think invention is great.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.03 10:40:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lord Frost
They way I see it... you have 3 options.
player A - sells all his datacores once a month... pure profit
player B - buys datacores to invent t2 bpcs, makes t2 items, sells items. he has to make sure he keeps a profit. as he is INVESTING in purchases of parts to help invent.
player C - uses his own data cores to invent, makes t2... he has a much bigger profit than player B
HYPOTHEOTICALS... say one month of data cores worth 100mil
player A - makes 100 mil a month
player B - spends 100mil, creates t2, returns profit of 500mil
player C - creates t2, returns profit of 600mil
The outcome, those selling datacores are losing out on making a bigger business for them, and those buy datacores are losing out on their profits. Player C is a smart business man, as he develops his product from as little cost as possible.
It goes for all components... if you build it, its worth more. If you mine it, you cut your costs. If you sold what you mined, you lessen what profit you could have. If you want to take the long road, be my guest.
Reworked for you:
player A only moneymaking activity producing datacores and selling them - makes 100 mil a month
player B only moneymaking activity inventing and producing T2
- spends 100mil, creates t2, sell at 600, returns profit of 500mil
player C 2 moneimaking activityes producing datacores and inventing and selling t2
- producing datacores give 100 million isk in datacores
- creates t2, use 100 million isk in datacores returns 600mil from sales, profit 500 millions.
- total profits 600 milions, 100 for datacores production, 500 for T2 inventing
Player C has 2 activities, the only difference is that datacore production, after starting it, require relatively little work.
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donjuandemarc0
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Posted - 2007.07.03 13:45:00 -
[47]
/me laughs at the whiney whiners an goes back to counting isk
Invention is a crazy money maker. You just have to have half a brain....
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ZIPMANN
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:07:00 -
[48]
YES invention sucks.. bad results, t2 componts are sky rocketing , datacores are becomming scarse.. Everyone should not do it big isk sink!!!!!!!!!!!
Me goes and buy more labs..muahahah....err nothing to see here , no those are not my POS'
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Ashraaf
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:26:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Ashraaf on 03/07/2007 14:25:01
Some statement in this post hurt me
First one. BPO vs invention
I can produce more ships than a bpo producer, price can goes down i have a smaller margin
BPO is one Invention is many. Last batch was 8 cerberus in a little more than 2 days
Second If i use my own stuff i gain more. No
Looting/Mining/Research is time. this time can be transfer in ISK.
1M trit in 1 hour is 2M (approx) isk in my wallet not instant, i have to sell trit or build something but it's isk.
I saw player saying Oh it's loot i refine and it's bonus, i produce ship and sell the ship don't really check price. That's ok for me, you just make me richer :p
About invention i don't see any modification, but i must said that's i don't research a lot since Rev II.
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sci0gon
Tech 2 Ammo Holdings Limited
Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:49:00 -
[50]
Edited by: sci0gon on 03/07/2007 14:50:07
Originally by: TGR Reaper
actually invention will bring the prices back up with the costs of invention going up. so untill ccp look into this issue with invention since the patch you will see prices slow creep and not jump up in the near to short future on ships. i have noticed this on calrai ships too btw
how are invention costs going up?
datacores are pretty cheap except for the odd 2 / 3 datacores, which i believe is due to the fact that they are still seeding bpos on those fields. my only concern with invention atm as far as costs are concerned is that the gallente decryptor farmers are greedy little nerferters who need to calm down a bit. They dont see that their greed is actually the reason why the gal ship prices are still sky high
anyway success / failiure ratio did drop a fair bit so i can see where your coming from. 1st few days after deployment of REV II i noticed this and one day in particular i got a success rate of 4 / 40 jobs. i petitioned this straight away and as of yet still have no reply (which is just great, ccp if you can pull your finger out sometime this year would be nice)
anyway i got tired of waiting on them to answer my petition so i went ahead and whacked a further few 100mil into it after i got the cheaper invention imp at the price it should be 20-30mil not the over exhilarated pricing of 70mil+ greed 4TFL
anyway since then my success ratio has increased slightly but not enough to warrent the invention success as it was before REV II was released. so in my eyes CCP did a stealth nerf to include these implants WHICH they should have made a statment about.
I myself would really love to know more about their introduction of T2 bpo's being made through invention / research. is it even in game yet? was it just a idea they were playing about with? will it turn out to be another pile of excrament like the T2 lottery is?
//added
for those of you who think that datacores / decryptors only cost 100mil max per set of jobs you really need to do more math and research tbh
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Deva Blackfire
Citadel of dark arts
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:53:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2007 14:59:28
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/07/2007 14:53:46
Originally by: TGR Reaper
exactly what i am saying. invention was meant to be profit driven not profit loss. its replacing the praised lottery system which is better because you at lease have a chance at making money with a crappy BPO and instead ur losing with invention.
Uh inventions is a goldmine for me. No complains here...
EDIT:
Er i mean invention is worthless, go away. Nothing to see here.
Originally by: TGR Reaper
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/07/2007 23:11:15
After rev2 i ran:
- ishtar invention (calculated it at abt 8%, got result after 10 or 11 tries).
- about 200-300 module invention jobs - success more-less 40%
Seems fine tho i dont see any difference by using
the "invention hardwiring".
As for the thing above:
Player C then needs to do same as player B, because he can invent and produce faster than he gets datacores. Sad but true :)
no its doesnt seem liek it makes a difference.
Then you are doing it wrong. Or you are calculating it wrong. Or both at same time.
Like i said above: inventions is very good but you need MORE skills than "bpc - invent - produce - sell".
Need to check market, find good buyers, find cheap cores (because sooner or later ones you get from agents will deplete), get cheap t2 comps. It has much more to do with proper trading tbh than using "science skills".
Plus a lots of calculations: which decryptor to use (if any), which modules to invent to get most isk out of it etc.
Been playing with inventions for 3 months total (heavily in last 1,5 month) and im still getting iskies. Had a moment when everything went down (my expenses = income) but thats because i fuxxored calculations (forgot abt components for abt 1000 modules i bought earlier ;p).
After using those components i made huge leap in ISKs i have :)
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Aphroditi
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Posted - 2007.07.03 15:33:00 -
[52]
Guys, why people who invent don't make profits isn't Invention's fault on the rating.
But the people who sell low. And those aren't the BPO owners. They became so greedy all those years, that they want to sell 10 times up today's price :)
The real solution is to "sell your souls"  and make invention cartels (eg Cerberus Cartel) and control the prices. After all the BPO owners will always make less units per day (they are only few handfuls) than the inventors.
What I do? I sell my mechanical datacores and focusing on less stressful jobs. 
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.03 15:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Aphroditi
The real solution is to "sell your souls" and make invention cartels (eg Cerberus Cartel) and control the prices.
You can't make a cartel now because
a. Some people won't join
b. If prices do go up then more people will invent
I've got 5 max run Brutix BPCs coming out soon, oooo, its very exciting. Even splashed out on the the best decrypters for them. I never thought that I would ever be a Command Ship producer, but with invention I can be (with luck).
Invention is great, the only yuk thing about it is the amount agent whoring you have to do get get enough standing to get the best R+D agents. But at least now the LP store gives nice stuff.
Hopefully, I will be able to go back to exploration soon and find my own decryptors.
Then I will be a totally self sufficient inventor.
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Macmuelli
Gallente
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:00:00 -
[54]
After they changed the wastefactor that ships are 20 % more expensiver then before,there is no more real profit on all stuff.
Invented pa example a 5 run vulture bpc.
80 % waste factor
Building cost when i produce my own tech II comps around 80 mio each ship.
This point only make it not worth.
If u calculate negativ jobs in u pay per ship more then 120 mio ( if u dont use your own agents and woud buy it from market with this bad success rate)
If CCP increase the Sucess rate a bit + give us the chance to reduce the waste factor via research invention will be worth more.
Deimos/isthars/cerbs / nighthawks are worth doing invention.
also moduls ^^.
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Macmuelli
Gallente
Gallente Mercantile Exchange
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:01:00 -
[55]
After they changed the wastefactor that ships are 20 % more expensiver then before,there is no more real profit on all stuff.
Invented pa example a 5 run vulture bpc.
80 % waste factor
Building cost when i produce my own tech II comps around 80 mio each ship.
This point only make it not worth.
If u calculate negativ jobs in u pay per ship more then 120 mio ( if u dont use your own agents and woud buy it from market with this bad success rate)
If CCP increase the Sucess rate a bit + give us the chance to reduce the waste factor via research invention will be worth more.
Deimos/isthars/cerbs / nighthawks are worth doing invention.
also moduls ^^.
so i woud say it s not in all parts a Flop
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Tarazed Aquilae
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:06:00 -
[56]
First off, if invention becomes more difficult (more failures) the profits for the inventors will probably increase. Why? Because Tech 2 is highly desirable and many people consider it a necessity. When something is in limited supply with high demand the price skyrockets way out of proportion to the actual production costs.
More failures mean tighter supply.
Tighter supply means prices skyrocket.
High prices mean more profit per item.
If CCP did turn up the difficulty on invention it would be best to stockpile datacores instead of inventing and maybe buy some T2 modules now. CCP will either turn the difficulty down again or it will stay where it is and prices will go up. When they do you can go back to inventing.
Opportunity Costs.
Nothing in life is free. Everything you do has some kind of cost attached. Opportunity costs always have to be factored in. Anytime you face a decision where you can either do X or Y but canĘt do both you are facing an opportunity cost decision.
Take mining. LetĘs say you can make 5 million an hour from mining and 10 million an hour running missions. If you decide to mine you are actually losing 5 million an hour. Now, people may mine when they donĘt feel like running missions, and then they arenĘt actually losing out on mission running profits. If you face the decision of either mining or watching TV for an hour then you actually lose 5 million ISK for watching that Dukes of Hazzard rerun.
Datacores arenĘt free. ThereĘs a heavy investment in skill and in running missions for standing for the future payoff. Even when you have datacores coming in you still have to go fly out to pick them up. Making a hundred jumps, some through low sec, to pick up a bunch of datacores is both boring and time consuming. You could be mining or mission running instead. And once you pick them up the datacores become an asset, if you use them you canĘt sell them of ISK so you lose the market value of those cores.
You have to consider the value of your time, effort, and total assets, not just your wallet. Minerals and datacores both have value and you canĘt just ignore that value because they havenĘt been converted to ISK yet.
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insidion
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:07:00 -
[57]
I can't say that the invention system is worse than the lottery, but I can say it's definitely not the cure. It's a good thing that t2 is much more available now, but the system is almost ludicrous, and it still heavily favors the t2 bpo owners. Industry in general needs a complete revisit and brought up to speed.
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Rafein
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:15:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Alyth
Originally by: Ehranavaar
the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans.
Those paying for cores invent at PRECISELY the same cost as those that get them from their agents. If you don't factor in the cost of cores just because you got them "free" just means you are robbing yourself of extra isk. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.
True, but if everyone sells their datacores, and no one buys them, well, you're still not going to get any value from them.
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Brolly
Caldari
Templars of Space
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:22:00 -
[59]
Invention does seem a tad borked atm, as a wise man once said, "if it's not broken, don't fix it"
I remeber the time of good returns through invention, noe it's hardly worth the time and isk. To put it in simpler terms that PVP'ers may understand.
Imagine if your guns failed to hit more often than not as time went by, until the time came that it was hardly worth spending your ammo (unless your Ammar and have crystals :P). It really does become quite futile.
Was'nt invention meant to give every wo/man a chance at obtaining T2?, instead it has become yet another joke in the whole science/manu charade.
Eve's lottery system is becomming quite a joke. C'mon CCP, you're better than this.
I have read some of infinity's boards and agree much more with ideas floating along there, such as not having failures, but the job taking longer. I mean, you would'nt just go into a lab and a job would just flat out fail. You would continue the task over a period of time until it was successful.
What we have here is the dull, done to death, no-brainer mmorpg system of all or nothing. Wouldn't be so bad if skills actually counted for more than they do.
After training 3 months for results, surely that should show for something instead of the role of dice approach.
I sincerely hope that the new cell which is dealing with R&D and manu do it some justice and make invention worth the effort again.
And for gods sake, please stop messing with the system.
/me slaps the devs wrists.
Whilst i'm having a rant, something needs to be done about the camped datacores (or was it interfaces?) complexes, it just adds insult to injury. I haven'y been on many exploration jaunts of late so i'm not sure what the score is atm with arcsalv exploration sites, I would like to hear more if peeps have any experiences with them.
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donjuandemarc0
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Posted - 2007.07.03 17:30:00 -
[60]
/Me snorts and laucghs at the whiners again and goes back to counting stacks of isk
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