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Invention a Flop?

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TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:42:00 - [1] The real question is invention a worst flop than the lottery? I dumps billions into invention and havent seen Results. I have invention skills at: 5/5/5 for ships and before revelations II I was getting a 50% success rate and now I am down to about 12% success and have done many tries since the patch. With that success rate in mind it is impossible with all the overhead to make any profit from invention. Taking into account my failures I am in the hole with invention since revelations II and I was using all the best equipment and have the invention impant since revelations II was release that thing doesnt help at all. You would think using the best decrypter and max skills with implants you should be at 50% success rate or more espeally with the overhead with invention. Anyone else having similar issues inventing ships and especally amaar ships cruiser and battle cruiser levels of invention at least. /Signed Reaper!
OeOeOeOeO	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:44:00 - [2] it's the same with ALL chance based things... it's ment to be 50 out of 100 but it could be that you get the failing 50.. it's all bull... it's like ecm, a chance based thing in a game that relies on calculations DOESN'T WORK! ccp don't get that though.
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:47:00 - [3] Yeah it worked before the patch just fine. I have done 100's of invention jobs and since the path I have been put in the whole farther than I was before rev II. I started earn money back from what i invested and once rev II came out put me back in the hole more than when i started :( That chance based meathod their using is not correct or is bugged since the patch.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:47:00 - [4] Don't bother inventing Amarr command ships, you might get a damnation BPC, and those sell like arse.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:50:00 - [5] Were the BPO owners ever making obscene profits from the ships you've been trying to invent? If not, it's unlikely that they'll be worthwhile to invent until the BPOs for them are removed/destroyed; for people producing in Empire using remote manufacturing, this is impossible. ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro If not, it's unlikely that they'll be worthwhile to invent until the BPOs for them are removed/destroyed I wouldn't wait for this, because it's not going to happen.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:53:00 - [7] I hear it's brought some T2 prices down. Beyond that, who cares? As long as some dopes keep doing it for the sake of doing it, the rest of us can reap actual benefits. \o/ - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:59:00 - [8] actually invention will bring the prices back up with the costs of invention going up. so untill ccp look into this issue with invention since the patch you will see prices slow creep and not jump up in the near to short future on ships. i have noticed this on calrai ships too btw
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2007.07.02 17:59:00 - [9] the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans.
amiell	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:01:00 - [10] I too have seen a decrease in the amount of success in invention jobs, I also have the invention implant, but this has not seemed to help. Made some isk though, still making 'some' more. Nice to see tech II mods available to all. Amazed to see how much some of these mods cost to build, even with crappy -ME. Amiell
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Ehranavaar the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans. dude your better of selling the datacore on the market and makeing the money than because their is no profit inventing off the datacores you earn if you can sell them on the market and make more than if you invented with them.
Alyth Gallente Ma-Ven Industries Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Ehranavaar the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans. Those paying for cores invent at PRECISELY the same cost as those that get them from their agents. If you don't factor in the cost of cores just because you got them "free" just means you are robbing yourself of extra isk. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.
WredStorm Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Ehranavaar the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans. Why should it matter whether you generate your own datacores from an R&D agent vs. buying them on the market? The simple fact is that even if you get your own from an R&D agent you could turn around and sell those for whatever the current sale price is. If you want to truely account for your cost of inventing something you need to take that into consideration... it is, in effect, a cost to you, since you could have otherwise made a profit selling those cores yourself. It's sort of like building a ship from minerals that you've mined yourself... sure, it didn't cost you any ISK to acquire the minerals you need, but that doesn't mean the ship is worth 0 ISK and therefor any price you sell it for is a profit... if you could have sold the required minerals for 50M ISK then why would you ever sell the ship for less than that? WredStorm ----- Think out of the box, consider passive shield tanking your Myrmidon, you'll be pleasantly surprised!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:27:00 - [14] Invention is NOT meant to be your gold mine insta rich button... not matter how much you invest. Invention is meant to give everyone a viable choice to build their own t2 in small amonuts for themselves and corps... small being the key word. I'm sure many are using invention to gain profit, but its no where near a t2 lottery owner. Invention helps drive down t2... its the old saying. "Why buy it, when you can make it?" Also, I haven't noticed a difference in my chances to invent... pre-Rev II and post-Rev II.
Crying Freemam	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:28:00 - [15] yes i have the same problem i'm doing caldari stuff so far the mods seem oke to invent vs the ship inventing so far i did about 15 ships invents and only 1 came out and even a crappy bpc as well. the odds on ships seem to be an out rage if it take's so many try's it's not worth it i migth as well buy a t2 bpo seems a better investment. a other thing i'd like to see changed is what you like to invent instead of the station/pos labs picking the invention crying
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:30:00 - [16] since rev 2 my invention ratio is 100% granted ive only tried it once lol Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Alyth Originally by: Ehranavaar the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans. Those paying for cores invent at PRECISELY the same cost as those that get them from their agents. If you don't factor in the cost of cores just because you got them "free" just means you are robbing yourself of extra isk. Just because you didn't pay for it doesn't mean it doesn't have a value. The value is not having to use your budget to pay for the datacores. If you're always spending 100mil a month on datacores, when you could be getting them for free with hard work, that hurts your bottom line and extends your time to 'break even' or profit. Its not about the value of it once you have them. Its about how you acquire them. You spend 100mil a month to buy datacores, you better hope to get 100mil more a month in your sells than the guy who gets them for free. Of course, time plays a role too. Thats where the REAL value comes in.
Wyl Tyler	Posted - 2007.07.02 18:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Lord Frost The value is not having to use your budget to pay for the datacores. If you're always spending 100mil a month on datacores, when you could be getting them for free with hard work, that hurts your bottom line and extends your time to 'break even' or profit. Its not about the value of it once you have them. Its about how you acquire them. You spend 100mil a month to buy datacores, you better hope to get 100mil more a month in your sells than the guy who gets them for free. Of course, time plays a role too. Thats where the REAL value comes in. When getting into invention you have to work in the cost of the datacores irrespective of how you acquired them. Why bother inventing if it's more efficient to just sell the damn cores. If you get a crappy run and burn your cores for nothing you've lost the same amount of ISK whether you grew them or bought them off the market. I've worked out my percentages based upon hundreds of previous runs and can predict fairly well what's going to happen. Of course you'll get the odd super result together with the odd dreadful one - it balances in the long run. I should point out this is with respect to modules. I can't see how ships would be that profitable atm given the cost of decryptors and cores - but hey, there will be someone out there brighter than me who's doing well at it I'm sure :-) But there is OK -if not spectacular- money to be made. Sure beats NPCing anyway :-)
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2007.07.02 19:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord Frost The value is not having to use your budget to pay for the datacores. If you're always spending 100mil a month on datacores, when you could be getting them for free with hard work, that hurts your bottom line and extends your time to 'break even' or profit. Its not about the value of it once you have them. Its about how you acquire them. You spend 100mil a month to buy datacores, you better hope to get 100mil more a month in your sells than the guy who gets them for free. Of course, time plays a role too. Thats where the REAL value comes in. But you ARE using your budget to pay for datacores. Even if your getting them from agents. Seriously. Their part of your budget, because you could have sold the asset and used the isk for some other profit making activity. If your can't turn a profit off of invention with purchased datacores: DON'T INVENT ANYTHING!!! At all. Ever. Unless you like throwing money away. If you need 'free' datacores to turn a profit, your not turning a profit. What your really doing is taking your income being generated by having an R&D agent and using it to provide a subsidy for your invention. After playing EVE, it no longer boggles my mind that most small businesses fail. Not when there are so many folks that seem hell bent on taking a sum of their assets, and adding labor to reduce their total value.
Kaede Frost	Posted - 2007.07.02 19:18:00 - [20] Edited by: Kaede Frost on 02/07/2007 19:16:51 I've had no problem with invention since rev II. Getting same success on modules at least. Sometimes 7/10, sometimes 2/10, averages out to about 4/10. Join the In-game lottery mailing list: "Kaede Lottery" to keep uptodate on the latest lottery.
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.07.02 19:24:00 - [21] Invention isn't a flop, because tech-2 prices are a lot lower than before invention. And if you had 50% successrate with ships, then you had some extreme luck. And yes, minerals, salvage, and data cores are not for free, if you mine/salvage/get them from an agent yourself. Opportunity cost. ( A vocabulary that I've learned on EVE-O, although the idea behind is just logical. ) The only thing that you save are transaction taxes, buyorder fees and the time you have to spend on the market. If you sell 100 datacubes, they are worth the market price. If someone buys 100 datacubes for invention, they are worth the same. If you sell your 100 datacubes to someone else and buy 100 datacubes from someone else 5 minutes later, they are all still worth the same. Now if you take out that useless intermediate step and don't sell yours and don't buy from someone else again, but use yours right for your invention, then they are still worth the same. Your wallet doesn't show a difference accept in both cases, except that the <2% of market fees and transaction taxes are not deduced from your wallet and that you don't have to spend a few minutes to set up orders on the market.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.02 19:27:00 - [22] Minerals I mine myself are free Oooh, I sense a new sig coming on... - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.07.02 19:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Crumplecorn Minerals I mine myself are free Oooh, I sense a new sig coming on... The brain damage that comes along with mining isn't.
Kaede Frost	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Crumplecorn Minerals I mine myself are free Oooh, I sense a new sig coming on... While "free", you have to factor in actual game value of the minerals. If you use these minerals to build say a Battleship, then sell the Battleship on market for less than what you could sell the mineral individually, while you are making ISK, due to the mining, you are not maximizing your return on those minerals, someone comes along, buys the Battleship, refines it and sells the minerals for more. Join the In-game lottery mailing list: "Kaede Lottery" to keep uptodate on the latest lottery.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:30:00 - [25] Yeah.. its crappy for me also now. I was doing well enough inventing T2 cloaks, now all I get are 1 run T2 BPCs from 20 run T1 counterparts. I just stopped inventing alltogether. Waste of time.
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Dr Ming Originally by: Lord Frost The value is not having to use your budget to pay for the datacores. If you're always spending 100mil a month on datacores, when you could be getting them for free with hard work, that hurts your bottom line and extends your time to 'break even' or profit. Its not about the value of it once you have them. Its about how you acquire them. You spend 100mil a month to buy datacores, you better hope to get 100mil more a month in your sells than the guy who gets them for free. Of course, time plays a role too. Thats where the REAL value comes in. But you ARE using your budget to pay for datacores. Even if your getting them from agents. Seriously. Their part of your budget, because you could have sold the asset and used the isk for some other profit making activity. If your can't turn a profit off of invention with purchased datacores: DON'T INVENT ANYTHING!!! At all. Ever. Unless you like throwing money away. If you need 'free' datacores to turn a profit, your not turning a profit. What your really doing is taking your income being generated by having an R&D agent and using it to provide a subsidy for your invention. After playing EVE, it no longer boggles my mind that most small businesses fail. Not when there are so many folks that seem hell bent on taking a sum of their assets, and adding labor to reduce their total value. you are absolutly right! so many people in eve think they are making a difference by working their butts off to obtain materials and using them to subsitize something else and not counting the value of what they worked for into count when using those materials for matufaturing or invention. some people think their making a profit when they are just making the money they put into it. Basically if you get 100 mechanical eng. datacores from your agent instead of selling them for 200 mill or what ever you use them for invention your still using 200 mill worth of datacores to invent just using money you would have sold them for and puting it into invention.
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Kaede Frost Edited by: Kaede Frost on 02/07/2007 19:16:51 I've had no problem with invention since rev II. Getting same success on modules at least. Sometimes 7/10, sometimes 2/10, averages out to about 4/10. are u inventing modules?
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Crumplecorn Minerals I mine myself are free Oooh, I sense a new sig coming on... umm u put time and effort into that so saying there free is an understatment. if you using something you worked for and puting into something else which you could have sold on the market for a certain price you invested that amount of money into what ever else you are using those minerals for. simple business not rocket science.
TGR Reaper	Posted - 2007.07.02 20:56:00 - [29] Originally by: MasterEnt Yeah.. its crappy for me also now. I was doing well enough inventing T2 cloaks, now all I get are 1 run T2 BPCs from 20 run T1 counterparts. I just stopped inventing alltogether. Waste of time. is this since rev II patch?
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.02 21:04:00 - [30] Originally by: WredStorm Originally by: Ehranavaar the "secret" to invention being profitable is to generate your own datacores. if you are buying them well you've just pretty much doomed yourself to failure as an inventor. of course generating your own datacores takes a fair investment of time and energy which in eve is how you tell the winners from the also rans. Why should it matter whether you generate your own datacores from an R&D agent vs. buying them on the market? The simple fact is that even if you get your own from an R&D agent you could turn around and sell those for whatever the current sale price is. If you want to truely account for your cost of inventing something you need to take that into consideration... it is, in effect, a cost to you, since you could have otherwise made a profit selling those cores yourself. It's sort of like building a ship from minerals that you've mined yourself... sure, it didn't cost you any ISK to acquire the minerals you need, but that doesn't mean the ship is worth 0 ISK and therefor any price you sell it for is a profit... if you could have sold the required minerals for 50M ISK then why would you ever sell the ship for less than that? WredStorm well.... lets make a hypothetical scenario. 100 data cores are being produced a day. ( nice round number ) 70 of those are being bought by inventors. 30 of those are produced by inventors and used in house now, those 30 who produce datacores and build in house get "smart" and simply sell th data cores instead of inventing with them. Now, what happens? the tech II item in question availibility goes down by 30% The price of the tech II mod goes up by about 20%, and total sales go down by 10% ( whole supply and demand thing here, some people start using named mods which are now cheaper ) There is also a glut of datacores, and the price slowly drops. The inventors start making more isk, and the producers of datacores start making less isk. the former producers of datacores stop selling there datacores, and start inventing with them again, since they can make more isk by doing so, until an equilibrium establishes itself. You hvae to look at the whole picture here. invention is very much a supply and demand system now, unlike the tech II lottery before where the supply side was broken beyond belief.

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