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Kaleidon Reth
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Posted - 2007.07.05 10:56:00 -
[31]
Fantastic, but why not just go to the other fansitesyourself, collecting mails of the ppl that run them and send out a mail to them? That is bound to be a vastly superior tactic than hoping they see you post here on the forums.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:03:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Del ReyII
This obviously means that people who visit your site are attracted by these ads and buy isk for $
This is where your argument fell down. People who buy isk don't think "Oh, I know, I'll go to eve-tanking because it has isk ads", they either know what site to go to if they are repeat customers or they would google for it themselves.
I have stated before that if ads that pay about the same which aren't for isk selling are availible, I'd choose those. As it is, I'm being asked to choose to shut the website down or display google ads and the choice is obvious. I don't much care what the ads on my site are. I'd LIKE them not to be isk ads but I'd also like them to pay enough to keep the site going and anunfortunately the two seem to be mutually exclusive. Show me a comparable revenue stream that doesn't involve morally questionable content and I'll jump right on it.
If the definition of a hypocrite is someone who acts contrary to their beliefs or feelings, then 9/10ths of the earth are hypocrites. We all have to do things we disagree with, it's part of being an adult and making adult decisions.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:09:00 -
[33]
CCP should run a sting operation.
Set up a fake isk selling site and everyone that "buys" isk from it gets banned.
It will drive the price of click throughs up, hurting the isk sellers.
it will ban the isk buyers, hurting the isk sellers.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:17:00 -
[34]
Alright, as a trial I will block all isk selling ads from my website for the remainder of the month to see how they perform. Ander, if you have a list, I'd appreciate getting a copy so I could block them faster. Right now, I'm just going to go through them manually. I want to prove that disabling the highest paying ads would cause me to have to shut down the website unless alternate payment could be found.
And of course I'd love to hear something on alternate affiliate schemes. All I've heard lately is people telling each other to block isk selling ads on their sites, I have yet to see a single feasible alternative suggested.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Del ReyII
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nyphur
I want to prove that disabling the highest paying ads would cause me to have to shut down the website unless alternate payment could be found.
Really?
How much traffic and storage do you need?
10GB / Month transfer + 1GB Storage would cost about $6/month .
Even if you asked for donations from those who find your guide useful, I am sure you could come up with that. But promoting the disease of eve-online is not a way to do it.
I applaude your decision to remove it for the month, but if your aim is only to prove that the site wont run without those then, I think your doing it for the wrong reasons.
If the likes of you and those like you who run fansites promote $-isk sales trough indirect advertising then I think that CCP has a long hard battle to try and get rid of these scum.
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Manic Smile
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:39:00 -
[36]
Nyphur don't buckle to these people. Your site is useful and you shouldn't have to pay for a useful free service because of some fool's sense of 'morals'. To the moral high ground ISK ADS DO NOT DIRECTLY LINK TO ISK SELLS...if I wanted to buy ISK I would simply google it. If all it takes is a silly little banner to break your will, you didn't have one to begin with.
To Ander, sorry man but historically fighting the man sucks...and Google has become the man. You cannot win this war, or the war on ISK selling in general because it starts and ends in the individual...and humans as a whole are weak. Until CCP can track each individual ISK, and monitor every account 23/7 this crap will happen. Play ball with google and keep your site running and know that anyone with brains will appreciate what you are trying to do and understand that in life there are nessisary evils.
*courtesy of www.flickr.com |
Manic Smile
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:41:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Manic Smile on 05/07/2007 11:41:03
Originally by: Del ReyII
If the likes of you and those like you who run fansites promote $-isk sales trough indirect advertising then I think that CCP has a long hard battle to try and get rid of these scum.
Wars on crap don't work...
War on drugs...
War on terror...
War on isk selling?
There needs to be a war on stupid.
*courtesy of www.flickr.com |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Del ReyII
I applaude your decision to remove it for the month, but if your aim is only to prove that the site wont run without those then, I think your doing it for the wrong reasons.
On the contrary, I'm doing it to try and prove it will run without them. I'll spend this month trying to come up with alternatives but I've already mostly discounted donations as viable due to previous experience in the area. People just don't want to donate to a third-rate fansite.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Awox
Minmatar
QUANT Corp.
Southern Connection
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Posted - 2007.07.05 11:56:00 -
[39]
How much bandwidth could eve-pirate.com possibly use? I doubt it's so much that a single GTC sold on ebay couldn't cover..
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AwoxEveUtils (EVELauncher, ShiftWindows, ScratchPad) script for AutoIt scripting language!
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:08:00 -
[40]
Edited by: ry ry on 05/07/2007 12:10:22
people who buy isk will do so regardless, people that hate isk sellers will do so irrespective of what sites you manage to block, whilst feckless ****s like me will never care enough to form an opinion one way or the other.
stick them in an iframe or something, with the pages containing ads hosted on a different domain. Then you won't be advertising iskies, just linking to a site that does.
i don't see how it can possibly fail - this excuse, no matter how stupid, has been used since the dawn of time by bittorrent sites to avoid getting a legal kicking.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: ry ry
stick them in an iframe or something, with the pages containing ads hosted on a different domain. Then you won't be advertising iskies, just linking to a site that does.
i don't see how it can possibly fail - this excuse, no matter how stupid, has been used since the dawn of time by bittorrent sites to avoid getting a legal kicking.
But there aren't any legal issues surrounding these adverts. We're dealing with social, moral and economic issues.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:11:00 -
[42]
Edited by: ry ry on 05/07/2007 12:12:01
see my addition above! i'm feckless, you see.
edit -- anyway, won't eve-o stop linking to him if he advertises isk?
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Del ReyII
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nyphur
That's why I say that this issue is not about pure morality, because the vast majority of the people supporting those morals are doing so only in spirit. Most people complaining about this are simply stating their stance rather than exercising it as they aren't financially supporting a website themselves. If those morals came with a rental fee, I can imagine a few people would drop them.
I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there.
All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle.
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Elissen
Amarr
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:21:00 -
[44]
Nyphur, drop me a line at [email protected] with how much data traffic you have.
----
Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning.
Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:37:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Nyphur on 05/07/2007 12:40:41
Originally by: Del ReyII
I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there.
All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle.
Right now I use a hosting package by a friend of my brother and host several websites on it as well as using it for filespace. I wouldn't have any problems switching apart from obvious privacy issues with using someone else's hosting account. As I said before, though, 100% of the money generated by adverts on a website does not go toward the domain and hosting. There is a fair chunk left over that I have come to depend on and your offer would remove that.
The site makes about $30-40/month, minus hosting charges and domain cost for the year. I intentionally use low quality graphics and use them sparingly so as to keep the costs to an absolute minimum, so I am on a cheap package. The issue I was bringing up is that people who want the ads gone aren't willing to replace that revenue stream. Deferring hosting charges doesn't replace the revenue stream, it just decreases the costs that I already keep to an absolute minimum.
I am not personally bothered all that much by the ads, I'm perfectly happy to leave them up if it means I make two hundred quid over the course of a year. It's incentive enough for me to update now and then, at least. I'll give the google ads a good clean over this month and see how badly it hurts income but ultimately this is primarily a business decision for me. I think I deserve 10-15 quid a month to keep the site updated, would you disagree?
EDIT: Just for some comparison, I spend about 1-4 hours updating my website every week, depending on how much material I have to cover. It works out to over ten hours a month, which puts the value of my time updating the website at ú1/hour. Could you hire someone to write about a topic for ú1/hour?
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
barvo
7th Space Cavalry
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:41:00 -
[46]
Edited by: barvo on 05/07/2007 12:43:41
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: barvo
The answer "well it pays for my website" is about as lame as it gets, I'm afraid. You'd allow drug dealers to advertise on your site would you, if it paid the rent? What does that make you? A cheap *****. Sorry, but it's true.
Are you really equating isk sellers to drug dealers? Ignoring the fact that adverts for narcotics on a website would get it shut down, you're equating the eve EULA with realworld law and the two aren't comparable. The moral issues involved in not blocking an isk advert on a website is quite different to the issues involved in purposely allowing a criminal to advertise narcotics that could ruin people's lives on your website.
It is the eve-online equivalent. You are endorsing actions that are against the EULA, which is the law that governs this online universe.
Originally by: Nyphur
That's why I say that this issue is not about pure morality, because the vast majority of the people supporting those morals are doing so only in spirit. Most people complaining about this are simply stating their stance rather than exercising it as they aren't financially supporting a website themselves. If those morals came with a rental fee, I can imagine a few people would drop them.
I have run many websites in the past, for both events and organisations. Some I have funded myself, some have had some revenue generation through ads, some have been paid for by clients. That I have not chosen to do one for Eve is neither here nor there.
Also, if your hosting is really costing you 36$ a month (432$ a year!?), I'd suggest your problem lies there, not with people's morality about isk seller ads.
Personally I wouldn't pay you 6$ a month, on the basis I don't think I've ever been to your site before today. But if Ander's site and eve-tribune (sites I look at regularly) became subscription only, then if the fee was reasonable then I would pay it, be it in ISK or real money. I'm prepared to walk the line I preach.
Edit - ah so it's not just covering costs. Fair enough. Kinda changes the argument a bit from "Well I need the isk seller ads to keep the site running or I'd have to shut it down" though, right?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:46:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Nyphur on 05/07/2007 12:47:32
Originally by: barvo
Personally I wouldn't pay you 6$ a month, on the basis I don't think I've ever been to your site before today. But if Ander's site and eve-tribune (sites I look at regularly) became subscription only, then if the fee was reasonable then I would pay it, be it in ISK or real money. I'm prepared to walk the line I preach.
That's an important point. My site's rubbish and I'm alright with admitting it. It only get 300 hits a day, it's not all that useful and I've just been using it to blog about eve lately. People WOULDN'T donate to keep my site up as it doesn't even provide a service, they do however donate to keep sites like eve-radio up. Incidentally, Eve-radio also features isk ads, even features the expensive colour ones that only appear if you get a large number of hits daily.
Originally by: barvo
Edit - ah so it's not just covering costs. Fair enough. Kinda changes the argument a bit from "Well I need the isk seller ads to keep the site running or I'd have to shut it down" though, right?
Keeping the site running includes updating it with new content, otherwise it'd just be a static page with a link to a spreadsheet like it was before.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Del ReyII
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:47:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Del ReyII
I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there.
All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle.
Right now I use a hosting package by a friend of my brother and host several websites on it as well as using it for filespace. I wouldn't have any problems switching apart from obvious privacy issues with using someone else's hosting account. As I said before, though, 100% of the money generated by adverts on a website does not go toward the domain and hosting. There is a fair chunk left over that I have come to depend on and your offer would remove that.
The site makes about $30-40/month, minus hosting charges and domain cost for the year. I intentionally use low quality graphics and use them sparingly so as to keep the costs to an absolute minimum, so I am on a cheap package. The issue I was bringing up is that people who want the ads gone aren't willing to replace that revenue stream. Deferring hosting charges doesn't replace the revenue stream, it just decreases the costs that I already keep to an absolute minimum.
I am not personally bothered all that much by the ads, I'm perfectly happy to leave them up if it means I make two hundred quid over the course of a year. It's incentive enough for me to update now and then, at least. I'll give the google ads a good clean over this month and see how badly it hurts income but ultimately this is primarily a business decision for me. I think I deserve 10-15 quid a month to keep the site updated, would you disagree?
I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Del ReyII
I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that.
While I agree in principle, principles don't seem to count for much :/.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Del ReyII
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Del ReyII
I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that.
While I agree in principle, principles don't seem to count for much :/.
Apparently not. 
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Elissen
Amarr
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:54:00 -
[51]
Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though.
Since your already making money on your site I'm revoking the offer for hosting.
----
Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning.
Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
Splagada
Minmatar
Tides of Silence
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Elissen
Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though.
Since your already making money on your site I'm revoking the offer for hosting.
how much bandwidth you're eating mate? its running on a standard linux box?
------
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TomParad0x
Caldari
Angels of the Apocolypse
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:13:00 -
[53]
If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Elissen
Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though.
Originally by: TomParad0x
If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/
Match found! :D
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Elissen
Amarr
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:19:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Splagada
...
how much bandwidth you're eating mate? its running on a standard linux box?
Bandwith is not really the issue, the pages are pretty small. But 1.5M hits  do count up to 10GB in a month. The amount of CPU needed to cough up the results is much more a problem.
My previous server (a 2.4 GHz P4 running 32-bit Debian Sarge) would have a problem by now keeping up in peak hours. The current server (Core 2 Duo running 64-bit Debian Etch) is having an easy time though. But seeing the never stopping increase of usage and what I have in store for the next version, I'm glad that I have this server now. And I don't own the server, I'm renting it.
----
Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning.
Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Elissen
My previous server (a 2.4 GHz P4 running 32-bit Debian Sarge) would have a problem by now keeping up in peak hours. The current server (Core 2 Duo running 64-bit Debian Etch) is having an easy time though. But seeing the never stopping increase of usage and what I have in store for the next version, I'm glad that I have this server now. And I don't own the server, I'm renting it.
Have you considered changing your system to cache results in a table once calculated? Repeat routes wouldn't use a ton of cpu and theoretically, the amount of CPU the site uses would decrease over time if the table lookup is efficient. I don't know what the code looks like behind that site of yours, it could be remarkably efficient but have you explored options relating to making the code more efficient?
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
TomParad0x
Caldari
Angels of the Apocolypse
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:27:00 -
[57]
Edited by: TomParad0x on 05/07/2007 13:29:29
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Elissen
Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though.
Originally by: TomParad0x
If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/
Match found! :D
I wouldnt mind hosting some ones fan site :) I am currently not even using it for much, something like 50GB webspace / 500GB BW / month. I would need to talk to my host to see if CPU would be a problem though, I am not sure what kind of server it is on, im fairly sure it has 2 CPUs though.
edit: Just looked, it is duel core or has 2 CPUs, but it is shared hosting. If you are interested please let me know, I will contact him if you are and ask if it would be a problem.
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Elissen
Amarr
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:56:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nyphur
...
Have you considered changing your system to cache results in a table once calculated? Repeat routes wouldn't use a ton of cpu and theoretically, the amount of CPU the site uses would decrease over time if the table lookup is efficient. I don't know what the code looks like behind that site of yours, it could be remarkably efficient but have you explored options relating to making the code more efficient?
The whole Jumpplanner is rigged for speed and I'm already using caching techniques. The next version will also employ a dual layered caching mechanism to maximize it's efficiency.
Originally by: TomParad0x
Edited by: TomParad0x on 05/07/2007 13:29:29
...
I wouldnt mind hosting some ones fan site :) I am currently not even using it for much, something like 50GB webspace / 500GB BW / month. I would need to talk to my host to see if CPU would be a problem though, I am not sure what kind of server it is on, im fairly sure it has 2 CPUs though.
edit: Just looked, it is duel core or has 2 CPUs, but it is shared hosting. If you are interested please let me know, I will contact him if you are and ask if it would be a problem.
Thanks for the offer, but no thank you. It is quite a pain to move the Jumpplanner to a new server because of all finetuning. Like how would the host like it when he hears that a certain php extension needs to be installed? How do we deal with privacy issues? And there is a whole load of more questions, but that won't be needed.
I'm quite happy with my current host - they respond quickly to any questions and generally don't charge anything extra when something goes haywire and they have to fix it (like the server refuses to boot up). On the server itself I am root - therefor I can isntall anything I need and tune any settings that needs to be adjusted.
I can afford renting a server; I'm not looking for a different host. However, if somebody wants to donate, as a few people have done for which I am very gratefull, they can. Every bit helps since I am paying this out of my own pocket. To further offset the cost I am hosting a few (non-eve ralated) websites as well for which I get paid. Nowhere near enough to pay for the server, but again, that is not the issue.
I'm furtunate enough that I can afford it and I do it because I love EVE.
I can also see that some people have problems keeping their site hosted. And I can understand that even with the current hosting costs. It tends to get a lot more expensive when you go over your hosting package  .
So will I stop visiting sites that have isk selling ads on them? No. Will I click on it? No. Will I ever put isk ads on my site? Never. The last person who spammed the public ICSC forums with it got an IP-ban that doesn't expire.
----
Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning.
Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships! |
Ander
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.07.05 20:41:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Ander on 05/07/2007 20:43:06
Edited by: Ander on 05/07/2007 20:42:51
Originally by: Nyphur
Hi Ander.
It's a noble cause, but is it a waste of time? Google are unlikely to stop hosting ads just because some people don't like them, the only thing that could do that is possibly a message from CCP or legal action. I run eve-tanking.com and I use google ads unfiltered. If we all co-operated, we could keep a long list of isk ads to block with only an hour a week maximum each. It's probably not really all that difficult if you get a few sites in on it.
I tried blocking all the isk ads once. I spent an entire week doing it at about an hour a day, they just kept popping up with new sites every few days. When I finally practically got rid of all of them temporarily, the remaining ads were for stupid unrelated things like model ship building kits, the click through rate dropped to practically zero and the cash per click made me less cash in a projected month than I found down the back of the sofa. It just wasn't financially feasible to run a website and domain while blocking all the relevant high-paying ads.
Can you come up with some better ways to pay for hosting other than out of our own pockets?
Crazykinux (from Crazykinux musings blog) sent me his filterlist and I joined it with mine.
Additional 20 records of blocked hosts.
I can publish the list where we can use them together and I'll upload updated list every day or so when I'm at home.
I still think we can preassure google to start filtering isk ads if many sites bunched together and told them to shove their ISK selling ads where they belong.
If I get 50k unique visitors per month just imagine how many hits all fansites gets combined? Think google is going to ignore that just to satisfy isk sellers?
Edit:
I spoke to Pann on the matter of not filtering links a while ago. Not only will you get removed from community listing. The new policy they'll publish soon wil be even stricter. I'd love to hear from CCP on this matter.
EVE PIRATE
ANDER! now posting in "orange" |
Ander
Gallente
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.05 16:30:00 -
[60]
Seeing as how this thread is once again a pressing question.
I've decided to bump this thread.
Recently CCP made a sweep of fansites listing isk-sellers or being "inactive".
Somehow CCP must've made an error, or simply hate eve-pirate for some other reason. But today I found that eve-pirate.com was removed from the fansitelisting.
No warning, no message, no nothing.
Why has CCP decided to remove eve-pirate.com from the community list? Seeing as how we're one of the most active fansites which also had the most agressive anti-isk-seller policy?
Could any CCP rep tell me why it was removed?
EVE PIRATE
ANDER! now posting in "orange" |
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