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Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 17:51:00 - [1] Recently Adsense approached me with "reports" on how I could increase my revenue by not blocking so many links. These reports are automated and are basicly telling me that several links which pay a lot of money are being blocked. I could simply make more money by unblocking them. I have no intention what so ever as to unblock these people. Infact I've been continuing my war against ISK sellers by encouraging my users to report isk sellers to have them blocked. Recently Google returned to me and told me that some of my clicks were fraudulent. I dont know what kind of clicks these are as they refused to release the information on what types of clicks were caught as "fraudulent". I'm guessing it can be either these types: 1. Myself clicking ISK seller and then having them blocked. Matching my IP to a click on the site to using Adsense administration tool to filter IPs. 2. My text under adsense advertising that says "report isk sellers" and users clicking ISK sellers and then having them emailed to me to be blocked. 3. Automated traffic generated by some other source to put me in a bad position. I dont think number 3. is the case. Instead I contacted Google and explained my situation but they simply responded that all links must follow their guidelines. Do you think they have a policy against ISK-sales? Nope, I didnt think so either. So I cant report those links as violating rules. Finaly the response I got from google simply told me that if they keep finding fraudulent clicks they may simply turn off my account. Okay? So they're threatening me now. I've already told them that I'd like to know what kind of clicks are fraudulent, but they still refuse to tell me. Weird. So... It's time that all EVE fansites put some preassure on Google Adsense. Sites that cant afford to not stand without adsense and still dont want to have to filter ISK sales all the time. I think it's time that some of us fansites group together and ask Adsense to refuse ISK sellers ads. It's our sites and we should be able to decide what type of ads should be allowed on "EVE Online" sites. One fansite may not be able to put preassure on Google Adsense, but if 10 or 15 community fansites who use adsense group together we can make them listen. Or as we'd say in EVE. Lets gank them. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.04 17:57:00 - [2] The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. -
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Crumplecorn The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. In other news. The ISK seller gets runover by tank. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:03:00 - [4] Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. In other news. The ISK seller gets runover by tank. Not quite the way I imagined it tbh. -
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. In other news. The ISK seller gets runover by tank. Not quite the way I imagined it tbh. I know you meant me vs google but still :) I was thinking of two things to write. But it was funnier thinking of an ISK-seller getting runover.. Anyway, the other response I had is that Google probably makes couple hundred thousand dollars from all these "currency" ads on gamesites. There're more people than us EVE players who dont want them. Maybe other people would like to protest aswell? EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:06:00 - [6] I don't think it ended like that...
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Victor Valka I don't think it ended like that... No the student actually became famous through that picture and it changed the world. Now stop derailing my thread. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. In other news. The ISK seller gets runover by tank. Not quite the way I imagined it tbh. I know you meant me vs google but still :) I was thinking of two things to write. But it was funnier thinking of an ISK-seller getting runover.. Anyway, the other response I had is that Google probably makes couple hundred thousand dollars from all these "currency" ads on gamesites. There're more people than us EVE players who dont want them. Maybe other people would like to protest aswell? In your communications with them, mention it is a content requirement that these adverts be disabled, in order of you to be linked from the site's main source of traffic (EVE-O). That is, if they don't stop with the isk seller adds, your website will lose traffic. That'll catch their attention. They probably think you're just being "picky"... --------
Mona Lou Essence Research Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:15:00 - [9] Why should Google do that? Are you going to another ad company, which is filtering ISK sales? Oh there isn't any. Oh well. BTW, don't click on your own ads if you don't want to get warnings from Google.
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Ander Originally by: Crumplecorn The image in my mind is of that student in china who protested by standing in front of an approaching tank. In other news. The ISK seller gets runover by tank. Not quite the way I imagined it tbh. I know you meant me vs google but still :) I was thinking of two things to write. But it was funnier thinking of an ISK-seller getting runover.. Anyway, the other response I had is that Google probably makes couple hundred thousand dollars from all these "currency" ads on gamesites. There're more people than us EVE players who dont want them. Maybe other people would like to protest aswell? In your communications with them, mention it is a content requirement that these adverts be disabled, in order of you to be linked from the site's main source of traffic (EVE-O). That is, if they don't stop with the isk seller adds, your website will lose traffic. That'll catch their attention. They probably think you're just being "picky"... I did. In my first communique I explicity told them EVE-Pirate is a fansite for an MMO called EVE Online produced by CCP hf. Their policy dictates that to be listed as an official fansite on their community list you may not display advertising for ISK / Currency sellers. The reponse I got from one of their staff people were that "All AdWord-advertise must follow AdWords rules.." "if you think anyone violates these rules please report to [email protected]" (rough translation from Swedish). Now.. I read through these rules and nowhere do they state that currency sales are forbidden. In the next reponse I'll be mentioning to them that "ALL" EVE Online fansites who wish to remain as an official fansite will have to remove ISK ads. Meaning that if Adsense doesnt help us filter these ads we may very well have to switch to other revenue sources where we can block ISK sellers more efficiently without violating the ad-providers EULA. Still... Adsense sucks. Arent there anyother fansites out there who'd like to join in this revolt vs ISK sellers? EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Mona Lou Why should Google do that? Are you going to another ad company, which is filtering ISK sales? Oh there isn't any. Oh well. BTW, don't click on your own ads if you don't want to get warnings from Google. Feel free to report those ISK-sellers then and I wont have to click it. Google told me they have a review tool, but at the moment the review tool sucks as it's not possible to see ads which match terms on a dynamicly updated website. It's only possible to block an isk-seller AFTER it has started displaying the ad. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Mona Lou Essence Research Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Ander Feel free to report those ISK-sellers then and I wont have to click it. Google told me they have a review tool, but at the moment the review tool sucks as it's not possible to see ads which match terms on a dynamicly updated website. It's only possible to block an isk-seller AFTER it has started displaying the ad. I don't understand why you have to click on them? You block URLs, and Google ads show target URL (well most of them, only few formats don't). Either way, if you click on ad to block it, it is fraud click, unless you called Google and told them to get money for these clicks back. Anyway, I am not sure what you want Google to do - add new filtering options just becouse few fansites of one small online game don't want certain ads? Sorry but I can't see that happening, no matter how many sites you will group together.
Mona Lou Essence Research Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Mona Lou on 04/07/2007 18:30:00 I just visited your site and you are using one of those few formats which doesn't show URLs. However you can still see the URL if you view source code of Google ad (it is IFRAME, but you should be able to get source code by right click). URL for each ad is in this DIV: < div class=adu >www.someurl.com< /div >
Chi Canery	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:46:00 - [14] I hope there can indeed be a united front on finally doing something about isk sellers, Some people do make profit from these banners on their sites for themselves, not just to provide funds for the site, so hard to believe you are going to get too much support from them. I do have to keep saying this though. The isk banner advertisers are the same people who spam the game to death, and so cannot see how they are tollerated in one way and so complained about in another, sometimes by the same person!
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 18:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Mona Lou Edited by: Mona Lou on 04/07/2007 18:30:00 I just visited your site and you are using one of those few formats which doesn't show URLs. However you can still see the URL if you view source code of Google ad (it is IFRAME, but you should be able to get source code by right click). URL for each ad is in this DIV: < div class=adu >www.someurl.com< /div > The point of this thread wasnlt actually to find ways to see links of iskseller. But yes I can do that until adsense makes it possible to block the type of ads which deal with isk-sellers rightaway. Now, I do hope more fansites will join the revolt vs ISK ads. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.04 19:15:00 - [16] google will ban you if you click ads on your site. you are going to have to rely on other people clicking the ads and informing you of where they ended up. Not a bad solution as it does a number of things: costs the isk seller generates income for you (and presumably none for the isk seller) gets the isk seller blocked. Note also google frowns on sites asking people to click through on ads, so word your request carefully when it comes to asking for information on isk sellers so you can block them.
Jeb Coolness Esophorics Anonymous	Posted - 2007.07.04 19:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Ander Originally by: Mona Lou Edited by: Mona Lou on 04/07/2007 18:30:00 I just visited your site and you are using one of those few formats which doesn't show URLs. However you can still see the URL if you view source code of Google ad (it is IFRAME, but you should be able to get source code by right click). URL for each ad is in this DIV: < div class=adu >www.someurl.com< /div > The point of this thread wasnlt actually to find ways to see links of iskseller. But yes I can do that until adsense makes it possible to block the type of ads which deal with isk-sellers rightaway. Now, I do hope more fansites will join the revolt vs ISK ads. I think you may be going about this the wrong way. Instead of asking Google to help you circumvent their policies, why not ask CCP to make an exception for Google Adsense, or similar Ad Systems that do not allow direct control over content (outside of competitor ads)? Google Adsense brings in approximately $25/month on disabled Griefwatch boards, which is less than 1/4 of the monthly operating costs. I can ask for donations, but because Griefwatch is a paid service, people see little point in doing so. Also, I can't ask people to pay real money for Griefwatch killboards or CCP would forbid me from advertising Griefwatch or any related service or feature on the forums ever again. Google is helping me keep my website online. CCP is not. [ Griefwatch Killboards ]
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.04 20:06:00 - [18] I just went and clicked on all your ads, including the ISK seller one, so hopefully they all have to pay you $0.03. :)
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.04 22:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Jeb Coolness Originally by: Ander Originally by: Mona Lou Edited by: Mona Lou on 04/07/2007 18:30:00 I just visited your site and you are using one of those few formats which doesn't show URLs. However you can still see the URL if you view source code of Google ad (it is IFRAME, but you should be able to get source code by right click). URL for each ad is in this DIV: < div class=adu >www.someurl.com< /div > The point of this thread wasnlt actually to find ways to see links of iskseller. But yes I can do that until adsense makes it possible to block the type of ads which deal with isk-sellers rightaway. Now, I do hope more fansites will join the revolt vs ISK ads. I think you may be going about this the wrong way. Instead of asking Google to help you circumvent their policies, why not ask CCP to make an exception for Google Adsense, or similar Ad Systems that do not allow direct control over content (outside of competitor ads)? Google Adsense brings in approximately $25/month on disabled Griefwatch boards, which is less than 1/4 of the monthly operating costs. I can ask for donations, but because Griefwatch is a paid service, people see little point in doing so. Also, I can't ask people to pay real money for Griefwatch killboards or CCP would forbid me from advertising Griefwatch or any related service or feature on the forums ever again. Google is helping me keep my website online. CCP is not. Asking for an exempt of ISK ad policies by CCP isn't a solution either. The rules are there cause people abused the system too much in the past. People got their fansites registered and simply smacked on a lot of unfiltered adsense. A while back I started a thread where I complained about some fansites that were running adsense did not filter their lists at all. They would have ISK selling ads display for prolonged periods. Yes, you could argue that people will not buy ISK. but the fact remains people DO buy isk. Some poor sucker is bound to follow through on an isk ad and buy the isk. Then risk getting caught by CCP and have all the isk removed or possibly banned. I would never want to be indirect cause of someone getting banned for buying isk. I'll be investigating other means of getting ad revenues. Been looking at text-link-ads from another source which seem promising. So no other fansites would like to ask google to block isk sellers? I cant believe this :) No takes? EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.04 22:55:00 - [20] Edited by: Patch86 on 04/07/2007 22:54:01 Originally by: Ander So no other fansites would like to ask google to block isk sellers? I cant believe this :) No takes? [/orange] If I had a fansite, I would Maybe you should try contacting them directly? Go to any EVE fansite, and I'm sure theres a "contact us" link somewhere. --------
Rooker Lysian Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.07.04 22:57:00 - [21] Right-click the links, copy, paste into Notepad and strip off everything except the URL at the end of it. The real URL starts after 'adurl='. This is how I used to look at the sites without clicking them myself when I ran Google ads.
Mollernak Cassus Beli FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 01:28:00 - [22] If I had a site, I would... Unfortunately I don't... Just know you are fighting the good fight....
Ekscalybur	Posted - 2007.07.05 01:43:00 - [23] Google's stance on this is funny. The funny part is trying to picture an ad agency telling NBC that it has no control over what ads they broadcast. And that ad agency is paying NBC a helluva lot more money than Google has paid anybody.
Pyrostasis Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION	Posted - 2007.07.05 04:36:00 - [24] Im not cool enough to have a fansite... but I do support you in your efforts. Kill the buggers!
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.07.05 07:10:00 - [25] I haven't seen an ad in a long time since I installed Adblock Plus for Firefox. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Ashraaf Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.05 09:10:00 - [26] Edited by: Ashraaf on 05/07/2007 09:09:54 Hello Ander I'm volunteer on a fan site call http://www.jeuxonline.info/ We use Google Ad-sense and block (asap) every site who sell isk (or other gold site) We don't have any problem with them about reporting or blocking site Try to contact me Ig (tonight) and i get info about how we use ad(non)sense
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 09:24:00 - [27] had to remove all adsense from my sites sucks cause before adsense just paid the hosting fee for all the domains hosted on my server. i tried every freaking way to remove isk sales ad. but there are just too many companies. you can ban individual companies from advertising on your site (there is the option in adsense config), but another pops up every 2 days so in the end... well it just costs me more money now i feel for ya there eh ------
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 09:45:00 - [28] Hi Ander. It's a noble cause, but is it a waste of time? Google are unlikely to stop hosting ads just because some people don't like them, the only thing that could do that is possibly a message from CCP or legal action. I run eve-tanking.com and I use google ads unfiltered. If we all co-operated, we could keep a long list of isk ads to block with only an hour a week maximum each. It's probably not really all that difficult if you get a few sites in on it. I tried blocking all the isk ads once. I spent an entire week doing it at about an hour a day, they just kept popping up with new sites every few days. When I finally practically got rid of all of them temporarily, the remaining ads were for stupid unrelated things like model ship building kits, the click through rate dropped to practically zero and the cash per click made me less cash in a projected month than I found down the back of the sofa. It just wasn't financially feasible to run a website and domain while blocking all the relevant high-paying ads. Can you come up with some better ways to pay for hosting other than out of our own pockets? Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:29:00 - [29] Originally by: barvo The answer "well it pays for my website" is about as lame as it gets, I'm afraid. You'd allow drug dealers to advertise on your site would you, if it paid the rent? What does that make you? A cheap *****. Sorry, but it's true. Are you really equating isk sellers to drug dealers? Ignoring the fact that adverts for narcotics on a website would get it shut down, you're equating the eve EULA with realworld law and the two aren't comparable. The moral issues involved in not blocking an isk advert on a website is quite different to the issues involved in purposely allowing a criminal to advertise narcotics that could ruin people's lives on your website. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:52:00 - [30] Nyphur, your site gets mentioned in e-on, your write articles for e-on, you advertise your site on the eve-o forums through your sig, your a respected member of the community and you admit that isk-ads on your site generate you revenue that keeps your site going. This obviously means that people who visit your site are attracted by these ads and buy isk for $, Enabling the macro-miners, ratting farmers etc to continue their trade. There is a word for this, it's Hypocrite. Great job, sir. Bravo.
Kaleidon Reth	Posted - 2007.07.05 10:56:00 - [31] Fantastic, but why not just go to the other fansitesyourself, collecting mails of the ppl that run them and send out a mail to them? That is bound to be a vastly superior tactic than hoping they see you post here on the forums.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Del ReyII This obviously means that people who visit your site are attracted by these ads and buy isk for $ This is where your argument fell down. People who buy isk don't think "Oh, I know, I'll go to eve-tanking because it has isk ads", they either know what site to go to if they are repeat customers or they would google for it themselves. I have stated before that if ads that pay about the same which aren't for isk selling are availible, I'd choose those. As it is, I'm being asked to choose to shut the website down or display google ads and the choice is obvious. I don't much care what the ads on my site are. I'd LIKE them not to be isk ads but I'd also like them to pay enough to keep the site going and anunfortunately the two seem to be mutually exclusive. Show me a comparable revenue stream that doesn't involve morally questionable content and I'll jump right on it. If the definition of a hypocrite is someone who acts contrary to their beliefs or feelings, then 9/10ths of the earth are hypocrites. We all have to do things we disagree with, it's part of being an adult and making adult decisions. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:09:00 - [33] CCP should run a sting operation. Set up a fake isk selling site and everyone that "buys" isk from it gets banned. It will drive the price of click throughs up, hurting the isk sellers. it will ban the isk buyers, hurting the isk sellers.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:17:00 - [34] Alright, as a trial I will block all isk selling ads from my website for the remainder of the month to see how they perform. Ander, if you have a list, I'd appreciate getting a copy so I could block them faster. Right now, I'm just going to go through them manually. I want to prove that disabling the highest paying ads would cause me to have to shut down the website unless alternate payment could be found. And of course I'd love to hear something on alternate affiliate schemes. All I've heard lately is people telling each other to block isk selling ads on their sites, I have yet to see a single feasible alternative suggested. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Nyphur I want to prove that disabling the highest paying ads would cause me to have to shut down the website unless alternate payment could be found. Really? How much traffic and storage do you need? 10GB / Month transfer + 1GB Storage would cost about $6/month . Even if you asked for donations from those who find your guide useful, I am sure you could come up with that. But promoting the disease of eve-online is not a way to do it. I applaude your decision to remove it for the month, but if your aim is only to prove that the site wont run without those then, I think your doing it for the wrong reasons. If the likes of you and those like you who run fansites promote $-isk sales trough indirect advertising then I think that CCP has a long hard battle to try and get rid of these scum.
Manic Smile Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:39:00 - [36] Nyphur don't buckle to these people. Your site is useful and you shouldn't have to pay for a useful free service because of some fool's sense of 'morals'. To the moral high ground ISK ADS DO NOT DIRECTLY LINK TO ISK SELLS...if I wanted to buy ISK I would simply google it. If all it takes is a silly little banner to break your will, you didn't have one to begin with. To Ander, sorry man but historically fighting the man sucks...and Google has become the man. You cannot win this war, or the war on ISK selling in general because it starts and ends in the individual...and humans as a whole are weak. Until CCP can track each individual ISK, and monitor every account 23/7 this crap will happen. Play ball with google and keep your site running and know that anyone with brains will appreciate what you are trying to do and understand that in life there are nessisary evils. *courtesy of www.flickr.com
Manic Smile Tau Ceti Global Production Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:41:00 - [37] Edited by: Manic Smile on 05/07/2007 11:41:03 Originally by: Del ReyII If the likes of you and those like you who run fansites promote $-isk sales trough indirect advertising then I think that CCP has a long hard battle to try and get rid of these scum. Wars on crap don't work... War on drugs... War on terror... War on isk selling? There needs to be a war on stupid. *courtesy of www.flickr.com
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Del ReyII I applaude your decision to remove it for the month, but if your aim is only to prove that the site wont run without those then, I think your doing it for the wrong reasons. On the contrary, I'm doing it to try and prove it will run without them. I'll spend this month trying to come up with alternatives but I've already mostly discounted donations as viable due to previous experience in the area. People just don't want to donate to a third-rate fansite. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Awox Minmatar QUANT Corp. Southern Connection	Posted - 2007.07.05 11:56:00 - [39] How much bandwidth could eve-pirate.com possibly use? I doubt it's so much that a single GTC sold on ebay couldn't cover.. - AwoxEveUtils (EVELauncher, ShiftWindows, ScratchPad) script for AutoIt scripting language!
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:08:00 - [40] Edited by: ry ry on 05/07/2007 12:10:22 people who buy isk will do so regardless, people that hate isk sellers will do so irrespective of what sites you manage to block, whilst feckless ****s like me will never care enough to form an opinion one way or the other. stick them in an iframe or something, with the pages containing ads hosted on a different domain. Then you won't be advertising iskies, just linking to a site that does. i don't see how it can possibly fail - this excuse, no matter how stupid, has been used since the dawn of time by bittorrent sites to avoid getting a legal kicking.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:10:00 - [41] Originally by: ry ry stick them in an iframe or something, with the pages containing ads hosted on a different domain. Then you won't be advertising iskies, just linking to a site that does. i don't see how it can possibly fail - this excuse, no matter how stupid, has been used since the dawn of time by bittorrent sites to avoid getting a legal kicking. But there aren't any legal issues surrounding these adverts. We're dealing with social, moral and economic issues. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:11:00 - [42] Edited by: ry ry on 05/07/2007 12:12:01 see my addition above! i'm feckless, you see. edit -- anyway, won't eve-o stop linking to him if he advertises isk?
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Nyphur That's why I say that this issue is not about pure morality, because the vast majority of the people supporting those morals are doing so only in spirit. Most people complaining about this are simply stating their stance rather than exercising it as they aren't financially supporting a website themselves. If those morals came with a rental fee, I can imagine a few people would drop them. I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there. All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle.
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:21:00 - [44] Nyphur, drop me a line at [email protected] with how much data traffic you have. ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:37:00 - [45] Edited by: Nyphur on 05/07/2007 12:40:41 Originally by: Del ReyII I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there. All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle. Right now I use a hosting package by a friend of my brother and host several websites on it as well as using it for filespace. I wouldn't have any problems switching apart from obvious privacy issues with using someone else's hosting account. As I said before, though, 100% of the money generated by adverts on a website does not go toward the domain and hosting. There is a fair chunk left over that I have come to depend on and your offer would remove that. The site makes about $30-40/month, minus hosting charges and domain cost for the year. I intentionally use low quality graphics and use them sparingly so as to keep the costs to an absolute minimum, so I am on a cheap package. The issue I was bringing up is that people who want the ads gone aren't willing to replace that revenue stream. Deferring hosting charges doesn't replace the revenue stream, it just decreases the costs that I already keep to an absolute minimum. I am not personally bothered all that much by the ads, I'm perfectly happy to leave them up if it means I make two hundred quid over the course of a year. It's incentive enough for me to update now and then, at least. I'll give the google ads a good clean over this month and see how badly it hurts income but ultimately this is primarily a business decision for me. I think I deserve 10-15 quid a month to keep the site updated, would you disagree? EDIT: Just for some comparison, I spend about 1-4 hours updating my website every week, depending on how much material I have to cover. It works out to over ten hours a month, which puts the value of my time updating the website at ú1/hour. Could you hire someone to write about a topic for ú1/hour? Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
barvo 7th Space Cavalry Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:41:00 - [46] Edited by: barvo on 05/07/2007 12:43:41 Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: barvo The answer "well it pays for my website" is about as lame as it gets, I'm afraid. You'd allow drug dealers to advertise on your site would you, if it paid the rent? What does that make you? A cheap ***. Sorry, but it's true. Are you really equating isk sellers to drug dealers? Ignoring the fact that adverts for narcotics on a website would get it shut down, you're equating the eve EULA with realworld law and the two aren't comparable. The moral issues involved in not blocking an isk advert on a website is quite different to the issues involved in purposely allowing a criminal to advertise narcotics that could ruin people's lives on your website. It is the eve-online equivalent. You are endorsing actions that are against the EULA, which is the law that governs this online universe. Originally by:** Nyphur That's why I say that this issue is not about pure morality, because the vast majority of the people supporting those morals are doing so only in spirit. Most people complaining about this are simply stating their stance rather than exercising it as they aren't financially supporting a website themselves. If those morals came with a rental fee, I can imagine a few people would drop them. I have run many websites in the past, for both events and organisations. Some I have funded myself, some have had some revenue generation through ads, some have been paid for by clients. That I have not chosen to do one for Eve is neither here nor there. Also, if your hosting is really costing you 36$ a month (432$ a year!?), I'd suggest your problem lies there, not with people's morality about isk seller ads. Personally I wouldn't pay you 6$ a month, on the basis I don't think I've ever been to your site before today. But if Ander's site and eve-tribune (sites I look at regularly) became subscription only, then if the fee was reasonable then I would pay it, be it in ISK or real money. I'm prepared to walk the line I preach. Edit - ah so it's not just covering costs. Fair enough. Kinda changes the argument a bit from "Well I need the isk seller ads to keep the site running or I'd have to shut it down" though, right?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:46:00 - [47] Edited by: Nyphur on 05/07/2007 12:47:32 Originally by: barvo Personally I wouldn't pay you 6$ a month, on the basis I don't think I've ever been to your site before today. But if Ander's site and eve-tribune (sites I look at regularly) became subscription only, then if the fee was reasonable then I would pay it, be it in ISK or real money. I'm prepared to walk the line I preach. That's an important point. My site's rubbish and I'm alright with admitting it. It only get 300 hits a day, it's not all that useful and I've just been using it to blog about eve lately. People WOULDN'T donate to keep my site up as it doesn't even provide a service, they do however donate to keep sites like eve-radio up. Incidentally, Eve-radio also features isk ads, even features the expensive colour ones that only appear if you get a large number of hits daily. Originally by: barvo Edit - ah so it's not just covering costs. Fair enough. Kinda changes the argument a bit from "Well I need the isk seller ads to keep the site running or I'd have to shut it down" though, right? Keeping the site running includes updating it with new content, otherwise it'd just be a static page with a link to a spreadsheet like it was before. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:47:00 - [48] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Del ReyII I'd call you on that. I would offer you 1 year hosting for free, you would have to remove all forms of advertising on your site but if you want it its there. All you need do is alter your dns settings for your domain name, and you could be sorted by the next dns update cycle. Right now I use a hosting package by a friend of my brother and host several websites on it as well as using it for filespace. I wouldn't have any problems switching apart from obvious privacy issues with using someone else's hosting account. As I said before, though, 100% of the money generated by adverts on a website does not go toward the domain and hosting. There is a fair chunk left over that I have come to depend on and your offer would remove that. The site makes about $30-40/month, minus hosting charges and domain cost for the year. I intentionally use low quality graphics and use them sparingly so as to keep the costs to an absolute minimum, so I am on a cheap package. The issue I was bringing up is that people who want the ads gone aren't willing to replace that revenue stream. Deferring hosting charges doesn't replace the revenue stream, it just decreases the costs that I already keep to an absolute minimum. I am not personally bothered all that much by the ads, I'm perfectly happy to leave them up if it means I make two hundred quid over the course of a year. It's incentive enough for me to update now and then, at least. I'll give the google ads a good clean over this month and see how badly it hurts income but ultimately this is primarily a business decision for me. I think I deserve 10-15 quid a month to keep the site updated, would you disagree? I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Del ReyII I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that. While I agree in principle, principles don't seem to count for much :/. Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Del ReyII I knew there was more behind it that the hosting costs. Thats fine I agree with the incentive but I wouldn't agree to the means. I just couldn't agree with advertising isk sales, its not so much morality but respect for the game. I think thats all I have to say on that. While I agree in principle, principles don't seem to count for much :/. Apparently not.
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.07.05 12:54:00 - [51] Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though. Since your already making money on your site I'm revoking the offer for hosting. ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Elissen Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though. Since your already making money on your site I'm revoking the offer for hosting. how much bandwidth you're eating mate? its running on a standard linux box? ------
TomParad0x Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:13:00 - [53] If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Elissen Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though. Originally by: TomParad0x If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/ Match found! :D Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Splagada ... how much bandwidth you're eating mate? its running on a standard linux box? Bandwith is not really the issue, the pages are pretty small. But 1.5M hits do count up to 10GB in a month. The amount of CPU needed to cough up the results is much more a problem. My previous server (a 2.4 GHz P4 running 32-bit Debian Sarge) would have a problem by now keeping up in peak hours. The current server (Core 2 Duo running 64-bit Debian Etch) is having an easy time though. But seeing the never stopping increase of usage and what I have in store for the next version, I'm glad that I have this server now. And I don't own the server, I'm renting it. ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Elissen My previous server (a 2.4 GHz P4 running 32-bit Debian Sarge) would have a problem by now keeping up in peak hours. The current server (Core 2 Duo running 64-bit Debian Etch) is having an easy time though. But seeing the never stopping increase of usage and what I have in store for the next version, I'm glad that I have this server now. And I don't own the server, I'm renting it. Have you considered changing your system to cache results in a table once calculated? Repeat routes wouldn't use a ton of cpu and theoretically, the amount of CPU the site uses would decrease over time if the table lookup is efficient. I don't know what the code looks like behind that site of yours, it could be remarkably efficient but have you explored options relating to making the code more efficient? Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan.
TomParad0x Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:27:00 - [57] Edited by: TomParad0x on 05/07/2007 13:29:29 Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Elissen Running the Jumpplanner costs me quite a bit of money - cheap hosting plans don't work when you need some serious amout of CPU power. I don't have Google Ads on my site because I don't want isk selling ads. Trying to find something else isn't as easy as going with Google Ads though. Originally by: TomParad0x If I had a fan site, I would :) However, while I have the hosting for one, I do not have the time to maintain one :/ Match found! :D I wouldnt mind hosting some ones fan site :) I am currently not even using it for much, something like 50GB webspace / 500GB BW / month. I would need to talk to my host to see if CPU would be a problem though, I am not sure what kind of server it is on, im fairly sure it has 2 CPUs though. edit: Just looked, it is duel core or has 2 CPUs, but it is shared hosting. If you are interested please let me know, I will contact him if you are and ask if it would be a problem.
Elissen Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2007.07.05 13:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Nyphur ... Have you considered changing your system to cache results in a table once calculated? Repeat routes wouldn't use a ton of cpu and theoretically, the amount of CPU the site uses would decrease over time if the table lookup is efficient. I don't know what the code looks like behind that site of yours, it could be remarkably efficient but have you explored options relating to making the code more efficient? The whole Jumpplanner is rigged for speed and I'm already using caching techniques. The next version will also employ a dual layered caching mechanism to maximize it's efficiency. Originally by: TomParad0x Edited by: TomParad0x on 05/07/2007 13:29:29 ... I wouldnt mind hosting some ones fan site :) I am currently not even using it for much, something like 50GB webspace / 500GB BW / month. I would need to talk to my host to see if CPU would be a problem though, I am not sure what kind of server it is on, im fairly sure it has 2 CPUs though. edit: Just looked, it is duel core or has 2 CPUs, but it is shared hosting. If you are interested please let me know, I will contact him if you are and ask if it would be a problem. Thanks for the offer, but no thank you. It is quite a pain to move the Jumpplanner to a new server because of all finetuning. Like how would the host like it when he hears that a certain php extension needs to be installed? How do we deal with privacy issues? And there is a whole load of more questions, but that won't be needed. I'm quite happy with my current host - they respond quickly to any questions and generally don't charge anything extra when something goes haywire and they have to fix it (like the server refuses to boot up). On the server itself I am root - therefor I can isntall anything I need and tune any settings that needs to be adjusted. I can afford renting a server; I'm not looking for a different host. However, if somebody wants to donate, as a few people have done for which I am very gratefull, they can. Every bit helps since I am paying this out of my own pocket. To further offset the cost I am hosting a few (non-eve ralated) websites as well for which I get paid. Nowhere near enough to pay for the server, but again, that is not the issue. I'm furtunate enough that I can afford it and I do it because I love EVE. I can also see that some people have problems keeping their site hosted. And I can understand that even with the current hosting costs. It tends to get a lot more expensive when you go over your hosting package . So will I stop visiting sites that have isk selling ads on them? No. Will I click on it? No. Will I ever put isk ads on my site? Never. The last person who spammed the public ICSC forums with it got an IP-ban that doesn't expire. ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.0 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:41:00 - [59] Edited by: Ander on 05/07/2007 20:43:06 Edited by: Ander on 05/07/2007 20:42:51 Originally by: Nyphur Hi Ander. It's a noble cause, but is it a waste of time? Google are unlikely to stop hosting ads just because some people don't like them, the only thing that could do that is possibly a message from CCP or legal action. I run eve-tanking.com and I use google ads unfiltered. If we all co-operated, we could keep a long list of isk ads to block with only an hour a week maximum each. It's probably not really all that difficult if you get a few sites in on it. I tried blocking all the isk ads once. I spent an entire week doing it at about an hour a day, they just kept popping up with new sites every few days. When I finally practically got rid of all of them temporarily, the remaining ads were for stupid unrelated things like model ship building kits, the click through rate dropped to practically zero and the cash per click made me less cash in a projected month than I found down the back of the sofa. It just wasn't financially feasible to run a website and domain while blocking all the relevant high-paying ads. Can you come up with some better ways to pay for hosting other than out of our own pockets? Crazykinux (from Crazykinux musings blog) sent me his filterlist and I joined it with mine. Additional 20 records of blocked hosts. I can publish the list where we can use them together and I'll upload updated list every day or so when I'm at home. I still think we can preassure google to start filtering isk ads if many sites bunched together and told them to shove their ISK selling ads where they belong. If I get 50k unique visitors per month just imagine how many hits all fansites gets combined? Think google is going to ignore that just to satisfy isk sellers? Edit: I spoke to Pann on the matter of not filtering links a while ago. Not only will you get removed from community listing. The new policy they'll publish soon wil be even stricter. I'd love to hear from CCP on this matter. EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.05 16:30:00 - [60] Seeing as how this thread is once again a pressing question. I've decided to bump this thread. Recently CCP made a sweep of fansites listing isk-sellers or being "inactive". Somehow CCP must've made an error, or simply hate eve-pirate for some other reason. But today I found that eve-pirate.com was removed from the fansitelisting. No warning, no message, no nothing. Why has CCP decided to remove eve-pirate.com from the community list? Seeing as how we're one of the most active fansites which also had the most agressive anti-isk-seller policy? Could any CCP rep tell me why it was removed? EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange"
Reiisha Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.08.05 16:39:00 - [61] I absolutely hate and detest ads. This is why you won't find any ad on my site at all (except for the software used, ofcourse...). Luckily i don't have nearly enough bandwith usage on it to actually need them, though :) EVE History Wiki
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.19 21:27:00 - [62] The war against the evil ISK.
Thicky McThick	Posted - 2007.08.20 00:10:00 - [63] Try Eve Vault on the community forums , they are quite openly still promoting isk sellers

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