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WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
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Posted - 2007.07.09 13:37:00 -
[61]
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
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sableye
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.09 13:40:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: WhitePhantom
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
except at the end when you could cash them infor datacores I guess youlost somethingt hen.
Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Alrich
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Posted - 2007.07.09 13:41:00 -
[63]
Originally by: sableye
Originally by: WhitePhantom
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
except at the end when you could cash them infor datacores I guess youlost somethingt hen.
no then you buy it, same as the in game market but different
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Level5
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Posted - 2007.07.09 13:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Nothing to see here, move along.
eVe players do not exchange real money.
eVe players do not gain income from the game.
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
its EVE not eVe !!! , EVE EVE EVE EVE !!!
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Boonaki
Caldari
Knights of Chaos
Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:33:00 -
[65]
Move the cluster to Amsterdam, problem solved, no more stupid laws.
Fear the Ibis of doom!
113 |
Odinegras
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:36:00 -
[66]
Knowing the UK government for what it really is, a money grabbing capitalistic goverment. Im sure all CCP needs to do is buy a license. Its just the UK government wanting a piece of the MMORPG Pie.
Speed Camera's anyone!! Nice long straight roads with no houses on with speed camera's.. Dual carrage ways with speed camera's on. The most dangerous road in the UK has no speed camera's!!
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:36:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Yogo Hong
Originally by: 3card Monty
Imho mmo's will have zero problems to get the proper license. I can't imagine that the government cant see that mmo's are a game of a different color.
You can only hope. A lot of European countries already restrict online gambling through games. Ex. a lot of WoW players from the Netherlands are quite frustrated everytime Blizzard Europe holds a contest as their law prohibits online gambling.
Why am i not in jail then? I haven't even been fined for anything...
The Dutch government has better things to do than chase nerds who play games.
EVE History Wiki
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Necronomicon
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:40:00 -
[68]
Better still, move the cluster to the Isle of Man, we have had online gambling companies running from here for years. And for the scaremongering OP, shush.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Nothing to see here, move along.
eVe players do not exchange real money.
eVe players do not gain income from the game.
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
Ding!Ding!Ding! We have a winner.
_______________________
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39
in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.09 15:07:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/07/2007 15:07:20
Originally by: Newton Mara
Edited by: Newton Mara on 09/07/2007 12:10:59
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Not really - All ISK belongs to CCP as per the EULA, along with everything else in this game - so the players own nothing, therefore any real world theory is moot.
If somebody sells isk, then the tax on that is in the same as selling you something they dont own. - In other words the seller is commiting fraud.
Real world theory is far from moot. If I mine for 10 hours and rack up 190mil ISK, I can then buy a Timecard from someone. I have just traded goods that 'belong' to CCP, and therefore to not belong to me, to another player.
I could then resell that GTC for Pounds Sterling, Dollars, Yen, or whatever currency I like. The EULA may say "no", but Real Law overrides some companies list of "dos" and "don'ts", and that's just how it is.
Your understanding fails in this area because you are trying to see it as black and white and it's a very grey area.
Eve, for example is a game of both chance and skill, where skill can supercede the elements of chance. Eve certainly fits within the remit of this law, and by its very nature allows actions that would fall foul of the law as well.
And please, for the love of Your Diety, please stop saying that it doesn't affect Eve because it's "lol uk law", it does because as it has been pointed out, Eve has servers based in London.
All items, ISK everything in eve is CCP'S Property, not the players, as clearly stated in the ELUA. Just like watching programes on Subscription TV - you pay your cash and entertain yourself - but you dont own the programes to resell. You can try, and many have, and all that happens is you either get ignored, or sued, depending on what program you are trying to flog on.
Therefore all real world "OMG Tax0rz" is a load of rubbish - since CCP never sold anything, and all items belong to them. How can anyone pay any tax on selling something that is not sold by the owner is beggers beleif. Taxing this is like taxing the mushroom in super mario, because some guy offered you a fiver for showing him which brick had it.
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Billion Isk Mission |
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Balnoor
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Posted - 2007.07.09 15:12:00 -
[71]
In the overall scheme of things the amount of tax gained by the UK gov from Eve is small so I imagine they could care less if no one can play it.
In fact it could be part of a master plan to get more people drinking which gets them far more tax and provides an easy target to blame for all societies ills.
I was wondering if the isk lotteries and any competition with a reward for the winner that are run will fall foul of this legislation.
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Akurion
Gallente
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 15:28:00 -
[72]
Come on, guys. Read the bolded sections, think about the law firm's motivation for this news release, and come to a logical conclusion.
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Italics added for extra super duper emphasis. This firm is just fishing for clients by whipping up fears about the new gambling law.
The UK isn't going to take MMOs to court. The release itself states that as part of this law coming into effect, gambling companies will be able to operate 'from within the UK for the first time.'
Do you really think that if the British authorities considered MMOs to be gambling sites, they would have allowed them to operate up to this point?
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Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 16:36:00 -
[73]
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
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WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
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Posted - 2007.07.09 16:56:00 -
[74]
Edited by: WhitePhantom on 09/07/2007 16:56:33
Originally by: Harisdrop
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
Horrible...PirateBay is just horrible...
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:09:00 -
[75]
I know nothing at all about law but i do know this.
If I steal your car you don't have to pay tax when I sell it.
Since all items and currency belong to CCP any sale thereof is theft/fraud.
The only issue I see here is GTC for ISK trade which may have to be stopped in the UK. Of course this will simply prompt a lot of players to cancel alts (or even mains) due to an inability to fund them and worse, more players will turn to more nefarious means of "purchasing" ISK which is probably why we have this system to begin with.
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: WhitePhantom
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
The act actually has a clause to cover this - under the Act there is no need for you to have a chance of losing something for it to be classed as gambling.
Another thought on the whole "is isk real money?" question. Consider another situation where something has a theoretical cash value, but isn't really a monetary prize for participating: playing poker with matchstick stakes.
You set up a game of poker with matchsticks as the stakes instead of money. All players agree that the matchsticks go back in the box at the end, and no-one gets to keep them. While they may "win" matchsticks during the course of the game, they are merely acting as tokens to mark progress, and the players never actually acquire ownership of them.
Such a game is not considered gaming under the Act because no money or money's worth is won by the players - no-one gets to keep anything.
The question is, what happens if two of the players decide to cheat, with one paying real money to the other in exchange for matchsticks. Technically, one of the players has now gained monetary benefit from playing the game. However, they have only done so by violating the rules of the game. Would/Should the organizer of the game then be considered guilty of operating a gambling game because of this?
Eve can be viewed in a similar way - isk/items etc are really just markers to measure progress in the game. When the game finishes (i.e. the server closes for good), no-one will get to keep their in-game items, they'll all go back into the "matchbox".
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
You realize that in the next couple of years, US backbones will be replaced by others in the rest of the world? Removing the net neutrality in a country doesn't make it more appealing for people who like the concept of 'free speech' :P
EVE History Wiki
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Gealbhan
Caldari
The SAS
The Kano Organisation
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:33:00 -
[78]
Another stupid law from stupid people. It never ceases to amaze...
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
Dane Hur
Caldari
x13
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:37:00 -
[79]
WHAT no more drunk brits tossing away money on Party Poker, F...
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Haradgrim
Caldari
The Wild Bunch
KA0S Theory
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Uh, Chinese server?
That.which.does.not.bend.breaks |
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.07.09 21:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lost Troll
Well that's sad...I would have figured the US would of done this first, not the UK....meh
If you look at Sony's station exchange, it is similar to CCP's system of time cards and character trade, and by this law, they are taxable.
Here is the link to Sony's exchange site.........
Stationexchange
The bottom line with this law is, they are taxing anything that they deem has monetary value, which could also include the full in game market.
the us has anti internet gambling laws already.
i find it a bit ironic, a country build on the principles of freedom tells you what you can and cant do with your money.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.09 22:11:00 -
[82]
Is it illegal for minors to gamble?
---
Put in space whales!
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Morhon
Amarr
Aegis Starship Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.09 23:03:00 -
[83]
I don't really see how this will effect CCP. In the UK our goverment is just trying to regulate online gambling. By offering prizes with no real money value it's not gambling and even if it has a value it's not the same because it's not cash. Heck Sky TV offer you ú30 of Marks and Spencer tokens if you get someone else to join Sky and how anyone could see that as gambling I don't know. Your paying for a service and if you talk someone else into getting it then you get a thank you.
The Eve budy program is no different to that really. And with GTC it's a way for some people to get eve free and for others to buy isk.
Everything people gain is to do with a service they are already paying for (or getting free buying GTC with isk). If they started offering Cars and big cash prizes for just having an account you pay for then it would probbly become a lottery and people get around that in the UK by turning it in a quiz with really stupid questions... Whats the capital for France (a) Paris (b) London (C) New York?
I'm no expert but really doubt this will effect Eve atall.
Does my bum look big in this cape? |
Newton Mara
Regius Curator
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Posted - 2007.07.10 11:35:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
All items, ISK everything in eve is CCP'S Property, not the players, as clearly stated in the ELUA. Just like watching programes on Subscription TV - you pay your cash and entertain yourself - but you dont own the programes to resell. You can try, and many have, and all that happens is you either get ignored, or sued, depending on what program you are trying to flog on.
Your comparison is flawed. If I sell a copied TV show, that's breaking copyright laws; actual laws.
If I sell ISK, either via GTC or ebay, that ISK stays on CCP's server, and CCP still keeps control of it, but I haven't broken any laws, only CCP's EULA.
Either way, this activity would not warrant any kind of tax under this new law, and I don't know who came up with that idea.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Therefore all real world "OMG Tax0rz" is a load of rubbish - since CCP never sold anything, and all items belong to them. How can anyone pay any tax on selling something that is not sold by the owner is beggers beleif. Taxing this is like taxing the mushroom in super mario, because some guy offered you a fiver for showing him which brick had it.
Agreed, this point is dumb, I don't know who raised it, but the outline in the Op doesn't mentioning taxing ISK at all.
All my first post was pointing out was that due to server location and the nature of Eve (gaming/chance) it does fall within the remit of this new law.
--
99% of Eve-Online posters shouldn't post. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you (if you're reading this, I mean you) |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.10 13:56:00 -
[85]
Any such "license" is in effect a tax, it simply simplifies the system of taxation by passing it to the top so that they can adjust their prices to compensate as they see fit.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:05:00 -
[86]
Just a brief note before I go ******* ballistic.
England != UK. It is a country within the UK. I am not English and I am under UK law. Despite what the English think, they aren't the be all and end all in the UK. Don't let their propoganda change the way you think :-P
UK != England
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:07:00 -
[87]
Simple fact is Eve is based on chance, and we all hate it. It's all chanced based when and how hard we hit an officer, for example. Or jamming him. Or anything to do with combat.
Does this mean we can ask CCP to get rid of chanced based rubbish? :-D
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Damares
Flying While Intoxicated
The Threshold
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:18:00 -
[88]
Hmmmm, all this jibber jabber about GTC's, however it looks to me like people are making this fit where it doesn't.
how does chance and skill effect buying a GTC? it goes no further than "im more skilled than you so can afford a GTC easier"
thats like saying " i earn more money than you so i can buy a nice car" thats not gambling...
what im seeing from this is cases where you can risk money, ingame credits or RL money for RL money/ ingame credit's.
meh, this is the usual crap that we get, ohwell, we probably wont even notice any changes. Its always fine in the end e.t.c 
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:34:00 -
[89]
Your correct, this is being blown out of context by various people and I fail to see how this affects eve in the slightest.
Below is an article that explains about an 'MMO' called second life and the situations within it that this legislation is more aimed towards.
The gist of the article is that while there are online gambling laws in countries like the US, a game such as second life allows players to buy online currency with a credit card, and use that to gamble their 'virtual' currency online, and then sell back gains for real life cash. (this is all completely allowed by the game owners). Of course, unlike casino's this online business risks fraud as the people who create the SIM's can also manipulate the games to not payout or alter the odds in anyway they choose.
Taken from - http://techdirt.com/articles/20070112/005427.shtml
Quote:
As the exaggerated hype around Second Life has continued to grow, quite a few people have started pointing out that the most prominent activities in Second Life aren't the highbrow talks given by famous people, or various economic or social experiments, but like so many popular internet spaces: vices rule the day. Especially popular is gambling -- though, you almost never hear about that when the press writes up their latest gushing piece about some big celebrity showing up in Second Life or a big company opening a virtual building there. Yet, it's one of the more popular activities there -- perhaps even more since the US government began its big *****down on online gambling, forcing financial firms not to do business with online gambling operations. However, how will they manage that when the currency is not US dollars and the medium covers a lot more than just gambling? As Rob Hof notes over at Business Week, you can lose real money gambling in Second Life -- and it doesn't seem like there's an easy way for the government to stop it directly. Of course, because Second Life decided to bring real world laws into their virtual world, it may only be a matter of time until we hear that the Feds have set up shop in Second Life as well, in order to ***** down on such things... It's going to be a blast to watch the jurisdictional battles that show up when governments start trying to enforce laws within Second Life.
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Doktor Quick
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Posted - 2007.07.10 16:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: syphurous
Just read this article, wondering if CCP had yet ?
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Source
from what I can tell, ccp and indeed most MMO operators are protected on this, the same EULA agreements that restrict direct sales of items and disalow actions against local laws are in fact signed contracts that state that by playing the game you take full responsibility for any laws broken by playing the game, in essence, if you're playing it's your fault for playing not CCP's and any laws you break by participating in the game are your responsibility not theirs.
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