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syphurous
Gallente
   |
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:43:00 -
[1]
Just read this article, wondering if CCP had yet ?
 Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Source
______________________________
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Miriyana
Gallente
BeyondXtreme
Combined Planetary Union
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:44:00 -
[2]
a) CCP is icelandic
b) It's the internet, who gives a ****.
- - - - - -
Change just leads to more problems
i think we have to acceptant of spelling and grammer errors. - Huitzilopochtli Tlaloc |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:45:00 -
[3]
Nothing to see here, move along.
eVe players do not exchange real money.
eVe players do not gain income from the game.
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
---------
Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Matthew Cooper
Minmatar
Who What When Where Why and How
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Miriyana
a) CCP is icelandic
b) It's the internet, who gives a ****.
c. The EVE cluster is located in London?
I doubt there's a real threat there, but if there were... CCP would be in a bad place and we'd have heard about it by now.
Originally by: Tarminic
Stop posting with your alt Kieron. 
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2007.07.08 22:47:00 -
[5]
But the eve cluster is in england, no?
This new law must be the real reason for getting rid of the t2 bpo lottery O_O
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UPA Terf
DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2007.07.08 22:49:00 -
[6]
To be honest the way i read it it makes buying isk in england illegal but as eve is run under icelandic law (in the eula) then it is exempt
------------------------------
~~*Scorn*~~ |
syphurous
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:49:00 -
[7]
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can trade items for cash with real life money while following the games EULA, this doesn't stop it from happening, thus is applicable.
Eve-Radio while not CCP related is funded with donations & gives away isk prizes, thus gambling, thus making Eve Applicable.
______________________________
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.07.08 22:50:00 -
[8]
loled the uk have theyre noises so far up theyre asses that they can feel theyre chin:P hehe
as if mmo's around the world gives a damn, the law in uk doesn't effect any one outside of uk.
so if they didn't get the license what do they care, it's not theyre fault if people are breaking the law:)
___________________________________________
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
-
sig removed due to inappropriate content, email us for more information - Deckard ([email protected])
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:51:00 -
[10]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/07/2007 22:51:28
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 08/07/2007 22:50:56
Originally by: Matthew Cooper
I doubt there's a real threat there, but if there were... CCP would be in a bad place and we'd have heard about it by now.
This is true, or the same with EQ. But that is an incredibly broad definition of gambling that they put up there.
And to the person you quoted, amazingly enough, the internet is directly linked to the area of the world that isn't the internet.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Yes, for those in China.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tammarr
But the eve cluster is in england, no?
This new law must be the real reason for getting rid of the t2 bpo lottery O_O
heeheeheeheeheehehehehe
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:52:00 -
[12]
By that definition, doesn't that affect ANY online game for which there are official exchanges between in-game items and money?
The question is, since GTCs can be officially exchanged for money and GTCs have a monetary value, does ISK count as a "prize" that can be obtained through a game of change and/or combination of chance and skill? Or does something only count as a "prize" when it's done through a CCP-sanctioned giveaway of some kind?
LAG
IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery. |
cal nereus
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:53:00 -
[13]
Edited by: cal nereus on 08/07/2007 22:54:18
Edited by: cal nereus on 08/07/2007 22:53:46
EVE does involve chance, therefore counts as gambling.
EVE stuff can be exchanged for real money, albeit indirectly, and thus everything in EVE has real monetary value.
EVE can be accessed from England, is played by English, and the server is in England.
However, it seems to me that getting the license will be relatively easy. CCP is probably planning on getting right on top of that and it won't matter if we have elements of gambling and real monetary value attached to our virtual stuff, as long as CCP is authorized for it. It will likely be the same for all other MMOs. All it means is extra paperwork.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.08 22:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Yes, for those in China.
The law in question doesn't affect the players, it places a requirement on CCP. By the quoted logic, any requirements the Chinese have of MMOGs (I understand there are a few) would have to be applied to TQ because it can be accessed from China.
-
sig removed due to inappropriate content, email us for more information - Deckard ([email protected])
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3card Monty
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Posted - 2007.07.08 22:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Chinese law does apply...thats why there is a seperate china server
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: 3card Monty
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Chinese law doesn't apply...thats why there is a seperate china server
Fixed?
-
sig removed due to inappropriate content, email us for more information - Deckard ([email protected])
|
3card Monty
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:58:00 -
[17]
All in all its quite simple. If the mmo companies to not comply with the new law, then the UK will bar them from doing business in the UK..its that simple. No comply... No UK customers.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Yes, for those in China.
The law in question doesn't affect the players, it places a requirement on CCP. By the quoted logic, any requirements the Chinese have of MMOGs (I understand there are a few) would have to be applied to TQ because it can be accessed from China.
I think we (as in the eve forum), have been through this before. And what I believe it came down to was...Yes, they'd technically have to, if they wanted Chinese players to play, but the Chinese gov't has no jurisdiction over what an Icelandic company does. And because of that they could not do anything to CCP directly, other than disallow chinese players to play.
Of course, I know 0 about Chinese and Icelandic law, and 0.1 about International law.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 22:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Of course, I know 0 about Chinese and Icelandic law, and 0.1 about International law.
That beats me by 0.1 knowledge of law.
\o/
-
sig removed due to inappropriate content, email us for more information - Deckard ([email protected])
|
Matthew Cooper
Minmatar
Who What When Where Why and How
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: 3card Monty
No comply... No UK customers.
No UK customers = incentive to move the cluster out of the UK, and then...
No taxes = sad UK government.
Originally by: Tarminic
Stop posting with your alt Kieron.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Of course, I know 0 about Chinese and Icelandic law, and 0.1 about International law.
That beats me by 0.1 knowledge of law.
\o/
Yes! Now all I need is a slam dunk emoticon.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:06:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 08/07/2007 23:06:01
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
Everytime you jump from empire to 0.0 without a scout, it's gambling. Although you usually don't win, only loose.
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3card Monty
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Posted - 2007.07.08 23:10:00 -
[23]
Imho mmo's will have zero problems to get the proper license. I can't imagine that the government cant see that mmo's are a game of a different color.
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Yogo Hong
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: 3card Monty
Imho mmo's will have zero problems to get the proper license. I can't imagine that the government cant see that mmo's are a game of a different color.
You can only hope. A lot of European countries already restrict online gambling through games. Ex. a lot of WoW players from the Netherlands are quite frustrated everytime Blizzard Europe holds a contest as their law prohibits online gambling.
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Paigan
Amarr
Thirdwave
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:24:00 -
[25]
All i say is:
I can't take anyone for serious who writes "massively multiplayer".
Multiplayer is no verb all, so there's no sense in using an adverb.
Makes me itchy and amused every time i see it. Grrr.
--
This game is still in beta stage |
Terminus adacai
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:26:00 -
[26]
LOL. am I missing out on something? Where is my prize?
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Gojyu
Gallente
Ever Flow
FREGE Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:40:00 -
[27]
Quote:
This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize,
Quote:
The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
Please note that there is a world of difference between "can be exchanged for money" and "can be, in a vague way be given gtc's since you buy them with cash"
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:43:00 -
[28]
Yet another one of these "SOme law is going to effect the game" threads.
Items have no real world value in eve, therefore eve is not effected. Even if you ignore this fact, The ELUA clearly states that all items belong to CCP. Therefore there is no gambling involved, since CCP own everything.
Heck, its the same as getting a mushroom in super mario, since it involves some degree of "chance" and if you beleive that a super mario collected mushroom has real world money value, then I strongly suggest speaking to your accountant or mental hospital 
--
Billion Isk Mission |
maarud
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: syphurous
Just read this article, wondering if CCP had yet ?
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
Source
Ingame Items can not be exchanged for real life money, not with out breaking the EULA. So I'd say CCP are pretty safe.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Lost Troll
Caldari
LUBE INC.
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:51:00 -
[30]
Well that's sad...I would have figured the US would of done this first, not the UK....meh
If you look at Sony's station exchange, it is similar to CCP's system of time cards and character trade, and by this law, they are taxable.
Here is the link to Sony's exchange site.........
Stationexchange
The bottom line with this law is, they are taxing anything that they deem has monetary value, which could also include the full in game market.
|
Gojyu
Gallente
Ever Flow
FREGE Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Gojyu on 08/07/2007 23:53:41
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Yet another one of these "SOme law is going to effect the game" threads.
Items have no real world value in eve, therefore eve is not effected. Even if you ignore this fact, The ELUA clearly states that all items belong to CCP. Therefore there is no gambling involved, since CCP own everything.
Heck, its the same as getting a mushroom in super mario, since it involves some degree of "chance" and if you beleive that a super mario collected mushroom has real world money value, then I strongly suggest speaking to your accountant or mental hospital
Actually, it's nothing like that. In Mario, it is not possible to give that mushroom to anyone else. However, the law clearly says "can be", and as we've seen, it is indeed "possible" to exchange stuff in Eve for real money. Legal in the game? No. But "can" it happen? Yes.
If that were the case, you'd have to file your isk as assets in your tax return, as theoretically some people, illegally, sell them for real currency.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.07.08 23:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gojyu
If that were the case, you'd have to file your in-game isk as assets in your tax return, as theoretically some people, illegally, sell them for real currency.
I don't think that would be quite the case, but I also refuse to file my taxes. So, I'm the wrong person to say anything about it.
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Reven Darklight
256 FREELANCERS
Black Scope Project
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 00:03:00 -
[33]
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime."
And this is where EVE/CCP will fall over and we all know it, there are people who are under the legal age to gamble playing this game. (18 for Australia not sure what it is for England though i suspect 18 as well).
If somehow CCP clear up the age thing the crime things definally has a problem, we all know this game is full of pirates and other assorted criminals who will use the funds from gambling to orgainise their crime.
All in all i don't think CCP/EVE have a hope in hell of getting a license, hopefully they don't need one
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Gojyu
Gallente
Ever Flow
FREGE Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 00:06:00 -
[34]
Quote:
If somehow CCP clear up the age thing the crime things definally has a problem, we all know this game is full of pirates and other assorted criminals who will use the funds from gambling to orgainise their crime.
It is not a crime to shoot someone's virtual spaceship with virtual space-lasers. Nor is it a crime to take someone's hard earned virtual-currency that doesn't even belong to them through a scam. Especially when the owner of said virtual currency still has full access to it.
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Lost Troll
Caldari
LUBE INC.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 00:09:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Lost Troll on 09/07/2007 00:10:46
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Gojyu
If that were the case, you'd have to file your in-game isk as assets in your tax return, as theoretically some people, illegally, sell them for real currency.
I don't think that would be quite the case, but I also refuse to file my taxes. So, I'm the wrong person to say anything about it.
It would be too costly for them to tax each UK player. That's why they will make CCP get the license and tax them on a 1ó per ISK trade/sale per say. And because of this additional tax, UK players might see a increase in monthly fees.
Also, if CCP dose not comply, they could freeze all UK payments to them, like the US did to all off shore online casinos.
|
Dave White
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 01:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: syphurous
You cant have my Mushrooms.
Originally by: CCP kieron
Dave, that sig is freaky and funny at the same time.
|
Dal Thrax
Perkone
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 02:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: syphurous
Just read this article, wondering if CCP had yet ?
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Source
I'm afraid getting a British online gambling license would be a bad idea. US credit card companies are not allowed to process payments to offshore gambling operators.
Dal
Originally by: Seleene
It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.
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Wagstaff
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 02:12:00 -
[38]
It's a press release from a law firm who'd be just delighted to help somebody get a license. It's hardly an authoritative opinion, and hardly a disinterested one, either. Lawyers...
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syphurous
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 02:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Dave White
Originally by: syphurous
You cant have my Mushrooms.
OK, maybe one, but dont waste it !
______________________________
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 09:06:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/07/2007 09:09:00
Quote:
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Gojyu
If that were the case, you'd have to file your in-game isk as assets in your tax return, as theoretically some people, illegally, sell them for real currency.
I don't think that would be quite the case, but I also refuse to file my taxes. So, I'm the wrong person to say anything about it.
It would be too costly for them to tax each UK player. That's why they will make CCP get the license and tax them on a 1ó per ISK trade/sale per say. And because of this additional tax, UK players might see a increase in monthly fees.
Also, if CCP dose not comply, they could freeze all UK payments to them, like the US did to all off shore online casinos.
Not really - All ISK belongs to CCP as per the EULA, along with everything else in this game - so the players own nothing, therefore any real world theory is moot.
If somebody sells isk, then the tax on that is in the same as selling you something they dont own. - In other words the seller is commiting fraud.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Return
The Red Skull
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 09:22:00 -
[41]
Time to get rid of all chance-based e-war. 
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Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
IntoXication Inc
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 09:31:00 -
[42]
Bureaucracy ftw eh? That's so stupid it's not even funny.
------
--Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!-- |
Na'Kunni
Amarr
RSP Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 09:39:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Na''Kunni on 09/07/2007 09:38:57
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
loled the uk have theyre noises so far up theyre asses that they can feel theyre chin:P hehe
as if mmo's around the world gives a damn, the law in uk doesn't effect any one outside of uk.
so if they didn't get the license what do they care, it's not theyre fault if people are breaking the law:)
STFU you ass, you won't be saying none of that if this did affect EvE would you?? Or are you one of them people who don't back a game they love to play?
People like you should be shot (EDIT - That was aimed in reply to his very first sentance)
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Gloria Stitz
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 09:43:00 -
[44]
If they tax your isk, then pay them in isk.
-------------
'Don't try to learn Eve all at once, otherwise your brain will explode' - Albert Einstein
------------ |
Fenren
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 10:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gloria Stitz
If they tax your isk, then pay them in isk.
haha! it would be funny to pay all your taxes in sik
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Hello!
Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Tristeria
World Order
The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.07.09 10:40:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Wagstaff
It's a press release from a law firm who'd be just delighted to help somebody get a license. It's hardly an authoritative opinion, and hardly a disinterested one, either. Lawyers...
True that
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Vrizuh
Eve Defence Force
Praesidium Libertatis
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 10:51:00 -
[47]
Its a scary thought, but as stupid as most politicians/policy makers are, usually you can count on money winning at the end of the day.
What would the UK gain by making things hard for companies like CCP? Nothing. The worst eve does is perhaps cause a few divorces that were going to occur anyway. What would they lose? A lot of business. Not just Eve, and not just MMOs. In a world of online trading, the UK will have labelled themselves completely unreliable for e-business. In the grand scheme, the taxes they'd lose would be pennies. But govt always needs more money, not less.
For that reason alone, I think the worst Eve would suffer might be some auditing to verify there is no condoned currency trading going on. Never mind the politicial ramifications for any individual who stuck his head up for an enraged internet to take potshots at for destroying Britain's reputation over computer games.
Then again, the U.S banned online gambling, so sometimes money loses.
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Ulii
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Posted - 2007.07.09 11:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Vrizuh
Then again, the U.S banned online gambling, so sometimes money loses.
they banned foreign gambling, so monney won there too 
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Chrysalis D'lilth
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 11:07:00 -
[49]
Quote:
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
This is the important part of the text. I've not read the bill itself, but if the above is true, items in eve DO involve skill & chance, but they are NOT cash or virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
Games at most risk would be things like second life, where they not only have online gambling SIM's but also have a currency for exchanging lindens (the online currency) for US dollars.
Quote:
loled the uk have theyre noises so far up theyre asses that they can feel theyre chin:P hehe
as if mmo's around the world gives a damn, the law in uk doesn't effect any one outside of uk.
so if they didn't get the license what do they care, it's not theyre fault if people are breaking the law:)
If you bothered to do any research before you made the trollish post, you'd know the EvE servers are located in London, England. Which makes them every bit subject to UK law.
The EULA does not supercede UK law (its the other way around). EULA's amongst other things are a means for a company to distance itself from players who engage in activities such as selling virtual items for real life money.
While CCP maybe based in iceland, like any international company when operating abroad, it falls subject to the countries laws in which it is operating, as well as international law.
Quote:
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
If your a chinese player, then chinese law applies to you. If your an english player, then english law applies to you. If your an MMO that hosts its servers in England, then yes, English law applies very much to you. Just like Blizzard Europe are subject to french law.
Quote:
Well that's sad...I would have figured the US would of done this first, not the UK....meh
The US have already enforced online gambling laws (see above poster).
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Judas Lonestar
Ganja Labs
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 11:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can trade items for cash with real life money while following the games EULA, this doesn't stop it from happening, thus is applicable.
Eve-Radio while not CCP related is funded with donations & gives away isk prizes, thus gambling, thus making Eve Applicable.
Let me give you a quick lesson in international law.
You operate under the laws of your locality. Period. American laws affect a Chinese operator as much as Chinese laws affect an German operator.
In other words, they dont.
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Auron Shadowbane
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 11:50:00 -
[51]
english law affects the company only concearning the things that are in england, which is the hardware.
what the hardware does (processing data) is something else.
and tbh I want to see how they enforce mmo bans in england. jail anyone who connects to eve?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 11:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Yes, for those in China.
The law in question doesn't affect the players, it places a requirement on CCP. By the quoted logic, any requirements the Chinese have of MMOGs (I understand there are a few) would have to be applied to TQ because it can be accessed from China.
Way do you think there is a Chinese cluster?
CCP can't be prosecuted by the Chinese government for breaking the law a it operate outside China, but it can be banned from operating in China, so accessing credit card firms that operate and service Chinese citizens or people resident in China, advertising in China and so on.
The same for the English government and so on. If EVE fall under that law (and it appear it will, for example for the buddy program with prizes for the new subscribers) maybe CCp can't be prosecuted, but for sure the firm providing and servicing the London cluster can.
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Newton Mara
Regius Curator
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 12:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Newton Mara on 09/07/2007 12:10:59
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Not really - All ISK belongs to CCP as per the EULA, along with everything else in this game - so the players own nothing, therefore any real world theory is moot.
If somebody sells isk, then the tax on that is in the same as selling you something they dont own. - In other words the seller is commiting fraud.
Real world theory is far from moot. If I mine for 10 hours and rack up 190mil ISK, I can then buy a Timecard from someone. I have just traded goods that 'belong' to CCP, and therefore to not belong to me, to another player.
I could then resell that GTC for Pounds Sterling, Dollars, Yen, or whatever currency I like. The EULA may say "no", but Real Law overrides some companies list of "dos" and "don'ts", and that's just how it is.
Your understanding fails in this area because you are trying to see it as black and white and it's a very grey area.
Eve, for example is a game of both chance and skill, where skill can supercede the elements of chance. Eve certainly fits within the remit of this law, and by its very nature allows actions that would fall foul of the law as well.
And please, for the love of Your Diety, please stop saying that it doesn't affect Eve because it's "lol uk law", it does because as it has been pointed out, Eve has servers based in London.
--
99% of Eve-Online posters shouldn't post. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you (if you're reading this, I mean you) |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 12:18:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Matthew on 09/07/2007 12:18:33
Originally by: syphurous
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
Having skimmed over the act, that is a very simplistic summary of it, and appears deliberately designed to drum up business for the law firm involved.
Regardless of the speculation we may engage in, I'm sure CCP's lawyers will have reviewed it in a far more objective light than this article presents it in.
Originally by: syphurous
Eve-Radio while not CCP related is funded with donations & gives away isk prizes, thus gambling, thus making Eve Applicable.
Actually, the full act does not support this position:
Originally by: gambling act 2005
2) But a person does not provide facilities for gambling for the purposes of this Act by virtue only of-
(a) providing an article other than a gaming machine to a person who intends to use it, or may use it, in the course of any of the activities mentioned in subsection (1)(a) to (c),
(b) providing, otherwise than in the course of providing, operating or administering arrangements for gambling or participating in the operation or administration of gambling, an article to a person who intends to use it, or may use it, for gambling, or
(c) making facilities for remote communication available for use by-
(i) persons carrying on any of those activities, or
(ii) persons gambling in response to or in accordance with any of those activities.
So just because CCP provides access to isk, CCP is not responsible under the act for players who decide to gamble that isk on eve-radio lotteries. Similarly, they are not responsible under the Act for players who conduct their own gambling activities over in-game chat channels, provided those activities are not organized or supported by CCP.
I would also note that the Act gives the Secretary of State discretion to rule pretty much any activity in or out of being covered by the Act. With the fairly broad definitions in many parts of the act, that's something they're likely going to have to use a lot to avoid truly silly situations.
Some questions I'd be asking my lawyer would be:
-What counts as a sport under the act? The act does not define a sport, yet sports are specifically excluded (6.2.b)
-What exactly is the coverage of the term "money's worth" (6.5.a). This really depends on how well the EULA's "you have no interest in your in-game items" term holds up.
-Does Eve count as a "cultural activity" for the purposes of 19.1.b?
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Fenren
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 12:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Newton Mara
Edited by: Newton Mara on 09/07/2007 12:10:59
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Not really - All ISK belongs to CCP as per the EULA, along with everything else in this game - so the players own nothing, therefore any real world theory is moot.
If somebody sells isk, then the tax on that is in the same as selling you something they dont own. - In other words the seller is commiting fraud.
Real world theory is far from moot. If I mine for 10 hours and rack up 190mil ISK, I can then buy a Timecard from someone. I have just traded goods that 'belong' to CCP, and therefore to not belong to me, to another player.
I could then resell that GTC for Pounds Sterling, Dollars, Yen, or whatever currency I like. The EULA may say "no", but Real Law overrides some companies list of "dos" and "don'ts", and that's just how it is.
Your understanding fails in this area because you are trying to see it as black and white and it's a very grey area.
Eve, for example is a game of both chance and skill, where skill can supercede the elements of chance. Eve certainly fits within the remit of this law, and by its very nature allows actions that would fall foul of the law as well.
And please, for the love of Your Diety, please stop saying that it doesn't affect Eve because it's "lol uk law", it does because as it has been pointed out, Eve has servers based in London.
that would be like putting the ceo of an umbrella manufacturer in jale because he made an umbrella that was used in a murder.
if you make something that is NOT made to do a certan thing, and someone do that thing, it is not your fault.
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Hello!
Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Inflexible
InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.09 12:33:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Newton Mara
Edited by: Newton Mara on 09/07/2007 12:10:59
I have just traded goods that 'belong' to CCP, and therefore to not belong to me, to another player.
You did not trade anything de jure, because owner is still CCP.
If you sold something that is not yours you just committed crime.
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Rabbitual Ferrier
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Posted - 2007.07.09 12:34:00 -
[57]
It probably doesn't apply to MMORPGs as gambling, any more than gambling licences are required for a village raffle in the UK, unless theres a substancial value etc - but particually in the case that Isk is not real money in the UK (and as long as Real money is not involved then its fine - It does however affect games like Second Life which have a real world exchange value).
Also these sort of laws in the UK is only pursued if its in public interest.
Incidently the laws coincide with the UK introducing its own 'Las Vegas' and is more to do with the popularity of online gambling - and the fact that theres various tax 'irregularitys' involving internet businesses (Ebay has been in the Revenue depts sights for years).
Should, however, a exchange rate Isk to RL currency be established then it would apply. How would this effect no UK eve players, well you could expect the 'server farm' to be seized by HM Customs. Iceland also has close links with Europe, and could be subject to pursuit under international laws and european laws.
Hopefully these would involve importing Icelandic women....
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.09 12:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
eVe is not a game of chance.
Yeah ... you say that NOW after the BPO lottery is done 
--
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Entreri Finwe
Raptus Regaliter
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.09 12:45:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Yogo Hong
Originally by: 3card Monty
Imho mmo's will have zero problems to get the proper license. I can't imagine that the government cant see that mmo's are a game of a different color.
You can only hope. A lot of European countries already restrict online gambling through games. Ex. a lot of WoW players from the Netherlands are quite frustrated everytime Blizzard Europe holds a contest as their law prohibits online gambling.
They are allowed to smoke weed but not gamble on the internet?
Wow (and, by that, I don't mean anything that can be related to: of, craft, world nor war)
---
I had a cool siggy but it had the wrong corp in it, then my server died :( |
hilaw
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 12:59:00 -
[60]
Edited by: hilaw on 09/07/2007 13:01:11
Erm, if its a real issue, what % of the eve population isn't technically minded enough to hook up a proxy?
I do not endorse the breaking of laws in any way, shape or form!
Was 1 Pixel to big and you had to nerf it, well fixed now |
WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 13:37:00 -
[61]
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
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sableye
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.09 13:40:00 -
[62]
Originally by: WhitePhantom
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
except at the end when you could cash them infor datacores I guess youlost somethingt hen.
Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Alrich
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 13:41:00 -
[63]
Originally by: sableye
Originally by: WhitePhantom
T2 Lottery wasn't a real lottery.
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
Eve does not contain any gambling elements in it, at least not "Features" provided by CCP thus nothing a "law" can be applied to. Even if play run "gambling/risk" events counted as gambling CCP could just ban them.
except at the end when you could cash them infor datacores I guess youlost somethingt hen.
no then you buy it, same as the in game market but different
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Level5
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 13:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Nothing to see here, move along.
eVe players do not exchange real money.
eVe players do not gain income from the game.
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
its EVE not eVe !!! , EVE EVE EVE EVE !!!
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Boonaki
Caldari
Knights of Chaos
Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:33:00 -
[65]
Move the cluster to Amsterdam, problem solved, no more stupid laws.
Fear the Ibis of doom!
113 |
Odinegras
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:36:00 -
[66]
Knowing the UK government for what it really is, a money grabbing capitalistic goverment. Im sure all CCP needs to do is buy a license. Its just the UK government wanting a piece of the MMORPG Pie.
Speed Camera's anyone!! Nice long straight roads with no houses on with speed camera's.. Dual carrage ways with speed camera's on. The most dangerous road in the UK has no speed camera's!!
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Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:36:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Yogo Hong
Originally by: 3card Monty
Imho mmo's will have zero problems to get the proper license. I can't imagine that the government cant see that mmo's are a game of a different color.
You can only hope. A lot of European countries already restrict online gambling through games. Ex. a lot of WoW players from the Netherlands are quite frustrated everytime Blizzard Europe holds a contest as their law prohibits online gambling.
Why am i not in jail then? I haven't even been fined for anything...
The Dutch government has better things to do than chase nerds who play games.
EVE History Wiki
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Necronomicon
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:40:00 -
[68]
Better still, move the cluster to the Isle of Man, we have had online gambling companies running from here for years. And for the scaremongering OP, shush.
Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
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Dionisius
Gallente
Critical Analysis
Te-Ka
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Posted - 2007.07.09 14:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Nothing to see here, move along.
eVe players do not exchange real money.
eVe players do not gain income from the game.
eVe is not a game of chance.
eVe is not gambling.
Ding!Ding!Ding! We have a winner.
_______________________
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39
in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 15:07:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 09/07/2007 15:07:20
Originally by: Newton Mara
Edited by: Newton Mara on 09/07/2007 12:10:59
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Not really - All ISK belongs to CCP as per the EULA, along with everything else in this game - so the players own nothing, therefore any real world theory is moot.
If somebody sells isk, then the tax on that is in the same as selling you something they dont own. - In other words the seller is commiting fraud.
Real world theory is far from moot. If I mine for 10 hours and rack up 190mil ISK, I can then buy a Timecard from someone. I have just traded goods that 'belong' to CCP, and therefore to not belong to me, to another player.
I could then resell that GTC for Pounds Sterling, Dollars, Yen, or whatever currency I like. The EULA may say "no", but Real Law overrides some companies list of "dos" and "don'ts", and that's just how it is.
Your understanding fails in this area because you are trying to see it as black and white and it's a very grey area.
Eve, for example is a game of both chance and skill, where skill can supercede the elements of chance. Eve certainly fits within the remit of this law, and by its very nature allows actions that would fall foul of the law as well.
And please, for the love of Your Diety, please stop saying that it doesn't affect Eve because it's "lol uk law", it does because as it has been pointed out, Eve has servers based in London.
All items, ISK everything in eve is CCP'S Property, not the players, as clearly stated in the ELUA. Just like watching programes on Subscription TV - you pay your cash and entertain yourself - but you dont own the programes to resell. You can try, and many have, and all that happens is you either get ignored, or sued, depending on what program you are trying to flog on.
Therefore all real world "OMG Tax0rz" is a load of rubbish - since CCP never sold anything, and all items belong to them. How can anyone pay any tax on selling something that is not sold by the owner is beggers beleif. Taxing this is like taxing the mushroom in super mario, because some guy offered you a fiver for showing him which brick had it.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Balnoor
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 15:12:00 -
[71]
In the overall scheme of things the amount of tax gained by the UK gov from Eve is small so I imagine they could care less if no one can play it.
In fact it could be part of a master plan to get more people drinking which gets them far more tax and provides an easy target to blame for all societies ills.
I was wondering if the isk lotteries and any competition with a reward for the winner that are run will fall foul of this legislation.
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Akurion
Gallente
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 15:28:00 -
[72]
Come on, guys. Read the bolded sections, think about the law firm's motivation for this news release, and come to a logical conclusion.
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Italics added for extra super duper emphasis. This firm is just fishing for clients by whipping up fears about the new gambling law.
The UK isn't going to take MMOs to court. The release itself states that as part of this law coming into effect, gambling companies will be able to operate 'from within the UK for the first time.'
Do you really think that if the British authorities considered MMOs to be gambling sites, they would have allowed them to operate up to this point?
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Harisdrop
Gallente
Vindicate and Deliverance
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Posted - 2007.07.09 16:36:00 -
[73]
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
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WhitePhantom
Gallente
Edenists
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 16:56:00 -
[74]
Edited by: WhitePhantom on 09/07/2007 16:56:33
Originally by: Harisdrop
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
Horrible...PirateBay is just horrible...
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.09 17:09:00 -
[75]
I know nothing at all about law but i do know this.
If I steal your car you don't have to pay tax when I sell it.
Since all items and currency belong to CCP any sale thereof is theft/fraud.
The only issue I see here is GTC for ISK trade which may have to be stopped in the UK. Of course this will simply prompt a lot of players to cancel alts (or even mains) due to an inability to fund them and worse, more players will turn to more nefarious means of "purchasing" ISK which is probably why we have this system to begin with.
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 17:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: WhitePhantom
To be a Lottery you have to lose something, the only thing you "lost" was research points but not really beause you didn't have to spend them till there was an offer provided to you. It was a random event with no loss really.
The act actually has a clause to cover this - under the Act there is no need for you to have a chance of losing something for it to be classed as gambling.
Another thought on the whole "is isk real money?" question. Consider another situation where something has a theoretical cash value, but isn't really a monetary prize for participating: playing poker with matchstick stakes.
You set up a game of poker with matchsticks as the stakes instead of money. All players agree that the matchsticks go back in the box at the end, and no-one gets to keep them. While they may "win" matchsticks during the course of the game, they are merely acting as tokens to mark progress, and the players never actually acquire ownership of them.
Such a game is not considered gaming under the Act because no money or money's worth is won by the players - no-one gets to keep anything.
The question is, what happens if two of the players decide to cheat, with one paying real money to the other in exchange for matchsticks. Technically, one of the players has now gained monetary benefit from playing the game. However, they have only done so by violating the rules of the game. Would/Should the organizer of the game then be considered guilty of operating a gambling game because of this?
Eve can be viewed in a similar way - isk/items etc are really just markers to measure progress in the game. When the game finishes (i.e. the server closes for good), no-one will get to keep their in-game items, they'll all go back into the "matchbox".
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 17:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Time to place the servers where piratebay places thier services.
Maybe CCP can buy thier own island and place a super internet backbone and connect directly to the USA for internet connections.
We just had the July 4th celebrations!!!!!
You realize that in the next couple of years, US backbones will be replaced by others in the rest of the world? Removing the net neutrality in a country doesn't make it more appealing for people who like the concept of 'free speech' :P
EVE History Wiki
|
Gealbhan
Caldari
The SAS
The Kano Organisation
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 17:33:00 -
[78]
Another stupid law from stupid people. It never ceases to amaze...
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
Dane Hur
Caldari
x13
Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 17:37:00 -
[79]
WHAT no more drunk brits tossing away money on Party Poker, F...
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Haradgrim
Caldari
The Wild Bunch
KA0S Theory
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 17:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: syphurous
You can access Eve from the UK, thus its applicable.
You can access EVE from China, is Chinese law going to start applying because of that?
Uh, Chinese server?
That.which.does.not.bend.breaks |
Chainsaw Plankton
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 21:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lost Troll
Well that's sad...I would have figured the US would of done this first, not the UK....meh
If you look at Sony's station exchange, it is similar to CCP's system of time cards and character trade, and by this law, they are taxable.
Here is the link to Sony's exchange site.........
Stationexchange
The bottom line with this law is, they are taxing anything that they deem has monetary value, which could also include the full in game market.
the us has anti internet gambling laws already.
i find it a bit ironic, a country build on the principles of freedom tells you what you can and cant do with your money.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 22:11:00 -
[82]
Is it illegal for minors to gamble?
---
Put in space whales!
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Morhon
Amarr
Aegis Starship Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.07.09 23:03:00 -
[83]
I don't really see how this will effect CCP. In the UK our goverment is just trying to regulate online gambling. By offering prizes with no real money value it's not gambling and even if it has a value it's not the same because it's not cash. Heck Sky TV offer you ú30 of Marks and Spencer tokens if you get someone else to join Sky and how anyone could see that as gambling I don't know. Your paying for a service and if you talk someone else into getting it then you get a thank you.
The Eve budy program is no different to that really. And with GTC it's a way for some people to get eve free and for others to buy isk.
Everything people gain is to do with a service they are already paying for (or getting free buying GTC with isk). If they started offering Cars and big cash prizes for just having an account you pay for then it would probbly become a lottery and people get around that in the UK by turning it in a quiz with really stupid questions... Whats the capital for France (a) Paris (b) London (C) New York?
I'm no expert but really doubt this will effect Eve atall.
Does my bum look big in this cape? |
Newton Mara
Regius Curator
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 11:35:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
All items, ISK everything in eve is CCP'S Property, not the players, as clearly stated in the ELUA. Just like watching programes on Subscription TV - you pay your cash and entertain yourself - but you dont own the programes to resell. You can try, and many have, and all that happens is you either get ignored, or sued, depending on what program you are trying to flog on.
Your comparison is flawed. If I sell a copied TV show, that's breaking copyright laws; actual laws.
If I sell ISK, either via GTC or ebay, that ISK stays on CCP's server, and CCP still keeps control of it, but I haven't broken any laws, only CCP's EULA.
Either way, this activity would not warrant any kind of tax under this new law, and I don't know who came up with that idea.
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Therefore all real world "OMG Tax0rz" is a load of rubbish - since CCP never sold anything, and all items belong to them. How can anyone pay any tax on selling something that is not sold by the owner is beggers beleif. Taxing this is like taxing the mushroom in super mario, because some guy offered you a fiver for showing him which brick had it.
Agreed, this point is dumb, I don't know who raised it, but the outline in the Op doesn't mentioning taxing ISK at all.
All my first post was pointing out was that due to server location and the nature of Eve (gaming/chance) it does fall within the remit of this new law.
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99% of Eve-Online posters shouldn't post. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you (if you're reading this, I mean you) |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.10 13:56:00 -
[85]
Any such "license" is in effect a tax, it simply simplifies the system of taxation by passing it to the top so that they can adjust their prices to compensate as they see fit.
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:05:00 -
[86]
Just a brief note before I go ******* ballistic.
England != UK. It is a country within the UK. I am not English and I am under UK law. Despite what the English think, they aren't the be all and end all in the UK. Don't let their propoganda change the way you think :-P
UK != England
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:07:00 -
[87]
Simple fact is Eve is based on chance, and we all hate it. It's all chanced based when and how hard we hit an officer, for example. Or jamming him. Or anything to do with combat.
Does this mean we can ask CCP to get rid of chanced based rubbish? :-D
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Damares
Flying While Intoxicated
The Threshold
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:18:00 -
[88]
Hmmmm, all this jibber jabber about GTC's, however it looks to me like people are making this fit where it doesn't.
how does chance and skill effect buying a GTC? it goes no further than "im more skilled than you so can afford a GTC easier"
thats like saying " i earn more money than you so i can buy a nice car" thats not gambling...
what im seeing from this is cases where you can risk money, ingame credits or RL money for RL money/ ingame credit's.
meh, this is the usual crap that we get, ohwell, we probably wont even notice any changes. Its always fine in the end e.t.c
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.07.10 14:34:00 -
[89]
Your correct, this is being blown out of context by various people and I fail to see how this affects eve in the slightest.
Below is an article that explains about an 'MMO' called second life and the situations within it that this legislation is more aimed towards.
The gist of the article is that while there are online gambling laws in countries like the US, a game such as second life allows players to buy online currency with a credit card, and use that to gamble their 'virtual' currency online, and then sell back gains for real life cash. (this is all completely allowed by the game owners). Of course, unlike casino's this online business risks fraud as the people who create the SIM's can also manipulate the games to not payout or alter the odds in anyway they choose.
Taken from - http://techdirt.com/articles/20070112/005427.shtml
Quote:
As the exaggerated hype around Second Life has continued to grow, quite a few people have started pointing out that the most prominent activities in Second Life aren't the highbrow talks given by famous people, or various economic or social experiments, but like so many popular internet spaces: vices rule the day. Especially popular is gambling -- though, you almost never hear about that when the press writes up their latest gushing piece about some big celebrity showing up in Second Life or a big company opening a virtual building there. Yet, it's one of the more popular activities there -- perhaps even more since the US government began its big *****down on online gambling, forcing financial firms not to do business with online gambling operations. However, how will they manage that when the currency is not US dollars and the medium covers a lot more than just gambling? As Rob Hof notes over at Business Week, you can lose real money gambling in Second Life -- and it doesn't seem like there's an easy way for the government to stop it directly. Of course, because Second Life decided to bring real world laws into their virtual world, it may only be a matter of time until we hear that the Feds have set up shop in Second Life as well, in order to ***** down on such things... It's going to be a blast to watch the jurisdictional battles that show up when governments start trying to enforce laws within Second Life.
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Doktor Quick
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Posted - 2007.07.10 16:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: syphurous
Just read this article, wondering if CCP had yet ?
Quote:
Gambling Act could affect games
Law firm Campbell Hooper has warned that unless they take action now, some MMO operators risk their games being deemed illegal when a new law comes into force later this year.
"In September the remaining provisions of the Gambling Act 2005 will finally come into force. Its main purpose is to update the law on gambling, which in some cases is over 50 years old and is therefore inadequate for the modern world," Campbell Hooper's Alex Chapman told GamesIndustry.biz.
The Act is designed to regulate online gambling, which companies will be able to operate from within the UK for the first time. However, massively multiplayer online games which offer prizes will also be subject to the new laws.
"This is because the new law creates a new single definition for 'Gambling', which includes playing a game of chance for a prize, and makes it a criminal offence to provide facilities for gambling without having and complying with an operators licence," explained Chapman.
The Act defines a "game of chance" as any game which involves elements of both chance and skill, or where superlative skill can eliminate chance. The definition of "prize" includes cash prizes, products and virtual prizes which can be exchanged for money.
"This arguably puts the marketplaces in MMOGs such as Station Exchange in Everquest in the firing line, and makes the products sold through them "prizes" - since they have a monetary worth," said Chapman.
However, he continued, MMO operators can avoid any potential penalties by obtaining an operators' licence from the Gambling Commission.
"This is not a simple task, but it is also not overtly complex. The key is to satisfy the Commission that you have in place an operation that satisfies the requirements and key objectives of the new law."
These include commitments to ensuring fair and open gambling, the protection of children and other vulnerable persons and the prevention of links between gambling and crime.
"This is something all current operators of these games, and those looking to enter this market, should seriously consider now," Chapman concluded - adding that his firm is already working to obtain licences for clients, and is in talks with the Gambling Commission over the MMO issue.
Source
from what I can tell, ccp and indeed most MMO operators are protected on this, the same EULA agreements that restrict direct sales of items and disalow actions against local laws are in fact signed contracts that state that by playing the game you take full responsibility for any laws broken by playing the game, in essence, if you're playing it's your fault for playing not CCP's and any laws you break by participating in the game are your responsibility not theirs.
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