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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:29:00 -
[1]
The Phoenix is a ship severely lacking in the cpu department. Often pilots have to choose between a sub par fitting that can't perform as well as other dreadnoughts, or going out and buying a bunch of expensive, low cpu requirement, faction gear. Some changes need to be made to bring it in line with other dreadnoughts.
To start off, here are the ship CPU numbers factoring in electronics 5:
Phoenix û 1031.25
Moros û 937.5
Revelation û 812.5
Naglfar û 875
(It has 218 more CPU than lowest CPU dread, Revelation. So far so good)
CPU Cost for Weapons + Siege Module with weapon upgrades 5:
Phoenix û 437.50 (150 (per launcher) x 3 x.75 (WU 5) + 100 (siege module))
Moros (Railguns) û 370 (120 (per railgun) x 3 x.75 (WU 5) + 100 (siege module))
Revelation (Beams) - 325 (100 (per beam) x 3 x.75 (WU 5) + 100 (siege module))
Naglfar (citadel/artillery) - 475 ((150 (per launcher) x 2 x.75 (WU 5)) + (100 (per artillery) x2 x.75) + 100 (siege module))
(It requires 112.5 more CPU than a Revelation's weapons, but 37.5 less than a Naglfar)
CPU Cost for a basic Tank:
Phoenix (Shield booster + 4 hardeners): 476
Moros (Armor Rep + 4 hardeners): 251
Revelation (Armor Rep + 4 hardeners): 251
Naglfar (Armor Rep + 4 hardeners): 251
(Requires 225 more CPU than an armor tanker)
CPU Cost for Dual Rep tank:
Phoenix (Shield Booster + best named shield boost amp + 4 hardeners): 516
Moros (2x Armor Rep + 4 hardeners: 326
Revelation (2x Armor Rep + 4 hardeners): 326
Naglfar (2x Armor Rep + 4 hardeners): 326
(Requires 190 more CPU than a dual repper using a best named SBA. 215 if you use a T2 SBA)
So while the Phoenix looks good on paper with 218 more CPU than the Revelation, once you factor in its weapons (112.5 more cpu) and itÆs tank (190-215 more cpu than an armor tanking setup) it has less CPU than every other dread.
At this point I expect someone to jump in and explain how the phoenixÆs superior tanking abilities justify the extra CPU requirements. I hate to say it, but the superior tanking ability of a phoenix is a myth. A double armor repping dread tanks equal to or better than a phoenix.
|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
| Cap | HP | Time | Cap/s | HP/s | HP/cap |
|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
Capital Rep x 2 | 4800 | 19200 | 22.5 | 213.66 | 853.33 | 4.0 |
Capital Booster & Amp | 2160 | 8704 | 10.0 | 216.0 | 870.4 | 4.03 |
|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
| Siege |
|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
Capital Rep x 2 | 4800 | 38400 | 11.25 | 426.66 | 3413.33 | 8.0 |
Capital Booster & Amp | 2160 | 17408 | 5.0 | 432.0 | 3481.6 | 8.06 |
|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
(Credit to Sarmaul for the table)
As you can see, the two different options are almost tied for efficiency and effectiveness. In siege the shield booster/amp boosts only 68.27 more hp per second, costs only 5.34 cap per second, and provides only .06 more hp per cap. When using a t1 amp the dual rep fitting is a better tanking option in every area. It uses less cap/s, reps more hp/s, and is more efficient at 8 hp/cap (compare to 7.70 with a t1 amp)
Continued...
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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:29:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Toffles on 11/07/2007 15:32:10
The biggest problem is that between these two nearly equal tanking options the dual capital repair tank only uses 150 cpu, with the shield booster + t2 amp using more than double cpu at 355. So with the Phoenix, after you factor in the basic weapon and tank requirements, you have very little CPU left to play with.
CPU left after fitting 1 CSB or 1 CAR + 4 t2 hardeners:
Phoenix (7 slots left (2 medium, 5 low): 117.75 left
Moros (7 slots left (2 low, 5 medium): 316.5 left
Revelation (7 slots left (3 low, 4 medium): 236.5 left
Naglfar (6 slots left (1 low, 5 medium): 149 left
CPU left after fitting Dual Rep Tanks or 1 CSB + 1 t2 SBA + 4 t2 hardeners
Phoenix (6 slots left (1 medium, 5 low): 62.75 CPU / 10.45 per fitting slot
Moros (6 slots left (1 low, 5 medium): 241.5 CPU / 40.25 per fitting slot
Revelation (6 slots left (2 low, 4 medium): 161.5 CPU / 26.91 per fitting slot
Naglfar (5 slots left (0 low, 5 medium): 74 CPU / 14.8 per fitting slot
The problem is made worse because the Phoenix needs to fill out its low slots with high cpu requiring items. The other dreads mostly have to worry about lower cpu medium slot items.
Common Low slot fittings on PhoenixÆs:
PDS II û 20 cpu
Damage Control II û 30 cpu
BCS II û 40 cpu
On other dreadnoughts:
EANM II û 30 cpu
Cap Relay II û 8 cpu
Heat Sink II û 30 cpu
Mag Stab II û 30 cpu
Common Medium slot fittings on dreadnoughts:
Sensor Booster II û 10 cpu
Cap Recharger II û 15 cpu
There simply isnÆt enough CPU to fit a ôstandard fittingö on a Phoenix. The Naglfar doesn't look too great either except it only has to worry about 5 medium slots which can be fitted with low cpu requiring cap rechargers/sensor boosters. Even with faction items it's difficult to fit a phoenix the way you want to. Other dreads can fit additional damage mods and hardeners without having to worry too much. On a phoenix this is often just not possible without spending extra on faction or gimping your setup. It would be one thing if all dreads had to do it, but they don't.
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:10:00 -
[3]
Naglfar is evnworse since as a matari ship it can be used as shield tanker. But for that you NEED a Co processor. If nagfar had enough CPO I think quite some people would fit it for gank shield tanked.
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Onicov
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:18:00 -
[4]
I approve this thread.
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Bein Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:44:00 -
[5]
A couple things to note are that the CPU requirements for PDS IIs and Cap Relay IIs would get reduced by the Energy Grid Upgrades skill, and that EANM IIs now use 36tf CPU and not 30tf, but otherwise yeah, its all correct.
The CPU requirements of capital shield tanking gear also affect the Chimera, Nidhoggur, and probably the shield-tanking supercapitals as well. Its not really just a problem for the Phoenix. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:07:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Bein Glorious
A couple things to note are that the CPU requirements for PDS IIs and Cap Relay IIs would get reduced by the Energy Grid Upgrades skill, and that EANM IIs now use 36tf CPU and not 30tf, but otherwise yeah, its all correct.
The CPU requirements of capital shield tanking gear also affect the Chimera, Nidhoggur, and probably the shield-tanking supercapitals as well. Its not really just a problem for the Phoenix.
sumamrizing.. the problem is the CPU usage of Capital shield booster. reduce it a bit and would be fair for NAglfar (shield tank version), Phoenix, Chimera and some Nids that shield tank.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Cyan Nuevo
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:39:00 -
[7]
Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.
---
Proud Amarr pilot.
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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.
It's not just "hard to fit", its flat out inferior to every other dreadnought.
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Smelt Down
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Posted - 2007.07.11 20:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Toffles
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.
It's not just "hard to fit", its flat out inferior to every other dreadnought.
I find it hard to believe it is inferior to a naglfar. A naglfar doesn't even have the option of shelling out for faction gear to make it good.
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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.11 21:02:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Toffles on 11/07/2007 21:01:55
Originally by: Smelt Down
Originally by: Toffles
Originally by: Cyan Nuevo
Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.
It's not just "hard to fit", its flat out inferior to every other dreadnought.
I find it hard to believe it is inferior to a naglfar. A naglfar doesn't even have the option of shelling out for faction gear to make it good.
The Naglfar does better DPS, can fit a dual rep tank, can make use of snake implants, and doesn't suffer too badly from citadel torpedo problems. That said, it definitely has some problems of it's own, and it definitely is somewhat subpar like the phoenix. But like I said, I'll leave that thread to someone more knowledgeable about its problems.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.07.11 23:48:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.
Have you ever tried to fit caldari? It really is not a cakewalk like many would have you think. It takes the same fitting skills as any other race....
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Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.12 03:11:00 -
[12]
Sadly there have been many threads including one of my own about Caldari Capitals being hard core gimped in CPU.
All Caldari Capitals INCLUDING THE WYVREN and LEVIATHAN have CPU issues which is very very very sad.
If you look at Armour tanking caps they get 2x the PG and their mods use 2x the PG but Shield mods have 4X CPU and there is only about a 10% boost for CPU on shield tanked ships.
Only need about 500 more threads and CCP might see this.
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Luna Nilaya
Black-Mesa
THE V I G I L
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Posted - 2007.07.12 08:42:00 -
[13]
I wonder who's responsible for these fitting problems.. seriously, that's ridiculous.
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Diana Merris
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.12 13:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
sumamrizing.. the problem is the CPU usage of Capital shield booster. reduce it a bit and would be fair for NAglfar (shield tank version), Phoenix, Chimera and some Nids that shield tank.
Quoting this because this is the correct answer.
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TubeChild TK421
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Posted - 2007.07.12 15:57:00 -
[15]
1 caveat though: Phoenix fits tank in mids, not lows. Meaning you have gobs more low slots to use (don't poke me about the others having free mid slots...EWAR dreadnaught is just a silly idea) Fit a co-processor and stop whining. :p |
Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.12 16:47:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Toffles on 12/07/2007 16:47:34
Originally by: TubeChild TK421
1 caveat though: Phoenix fits tank in mids, not lows. Meaning you have gobs more low slots to use (don't poke me about the others having free mid slots...EWAR dreadnaught is just a silly idea) Fit a co-processor and stop whining. :p
Except this puts the phoenix at a disadvantage to other dreadnoughts since they don't have to waste a slot on a fitting mod. An armor tanking dread usually fits it's mids with cap recharger II's for a more sustainable tank. Shield tankers usually fit PDS II's in the lows to improve their shield tank. If we have to fit one less PDS they should have to fit one less Cap Recharger II.
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Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.12 17:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: TubeChild TK421
1 caveat though: Phoenix fits tank in mids, not lows. Meaning you have gobs more low slots to use (don't poke me about the others having free mid slots...EWAR dreadnaught is just a silly idea) Fit a co-processor and stop whining. :p
Standard reply of the armour tanker. Phoenix can fit weapon uppgrades and should pay for this atrocity by being forced to use fitting mods. Well, armour tankers can fit full rack of cap rechargers and perma-run the reps never worrying about lag-spikes.
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Malaan Tabfassh
Penguin Mining Operations and More
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Posted - 2007.07.13 02:31:00 -
[18]
I think this suggestion with the co-processor is a very good and simple one. When I have a ship and for some reason I don't have enough powergrid I fit a pdu/pg-rig/rcu and don't whine about it in the forums. So why should there be a prob with that co-processor?
And don't start telling me: "Hey you can even fly a capship, so shut up telling us to fit a co-proc ..."
Btw: When this co-proc restricts your overall effectivness to fit something else, maybe your fleet around you has to compensate for it? Or do you use your Phoenix as a solopwnmobile?
When every ship would be to fit so easy, we had basically 1 dreadnought with 4 sets of different optics/weapon animations. Think about that.
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Incantare
Caldari
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.13 06:05:00 -
[19]
Read the two posts above yours. Fitting a co-proc is not a viable solution because it puts the phoenix and other shield tanked capitals at a disadvantage compared to the armor tankers who do not lose a slot.
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Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.13 08:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
I think this suggestion with the co-processor is a very good and simple one. When I have a ship and for some reason I don't have enough powergrid I fit a pdu/pg-rig/rcu and don't whine about it in the forums. So why should there be a prob with that co-processor?
And don't start telling me: "Hey you can even fly a capship, so shut up telling us to fit a co-proc ..."
Btw: When this co-proc restricts your overall effectivness to fit something else, maybe your fleet around you has to compensate for it? Or do you use your Phoenix as a solopwnmobile?
When every ship would be to fit so easy, we had basically 1 dreadnought with 4 sets of different optics/weapon animations. Think about that.
So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Riggers Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:17:00 -
[21]
So Pheonix has bad CPU problem and you made good calculations on the problem.
Now make the same calculations for powergrid for Revelation and Moros, since that is their main use in weapons and mods. Then compare the phoenix's CPU problems with the Revelation's grid problems.
If Revelations can fit with ease, then phoenix needs fixing. If not, then we got balance.
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Incantare
Caldari
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.13 11:06:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Incantare on 13/07/2007 11:07:30
Armor tankers don't have similar problems with grid.
With maxed skills:
A rev gets 812 500 grid. Two capital reps take 125 000 each, giga pulse and siege mod another 43 7500 leaving it with 125 000 free grid with no grid heavy items left to fit. 382.5 CPU left. If you wanted you could fit a third capital rep (and nothing else).
Beams take up some more grid but then you still have 23 750 grid left along with 347.5 cpu for rechargers, EANM etc. That's still a lot of breathing room.
Moros gets 65 000 grid left after 2 capital armor reps, siege mod and siege blasters. 440 CPU left.
31 250 grid and 417.5 CPU left after fitting rails instead.
Phoenix has 117 500 grid and 293.75 after capital shield booster, siege mod and citadel torpedoes.
Way too much grid, not enough CPU. A t2 EANM takes 36 CPU, a t2 invuln takes 44. In general the shield tank is cpu hungry but the phoenix has less cpu left for its fitting.
For the Chimera it's worse because of capital shield transfers have insane CPU reqs as well.
There's obviously a problem. Please fix Caldari caps CCP.
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R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.13 14:07:00 -
[23]
I'm so sick of this ****! It's been a year since dreads/carriers were out and still the same problems, no dev even answering the concerns of their paying customers.
There is ways to fit a Phoenix, but in every respect against other dreads it is sub-par, same for chimera when (except for tank compared to archon (similar bonii), but still archon can fit its support modules without fitting co-pro and ****).
For this reason my phoenix is being sold for a Moros as I am only a month away from that ship anyway.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Lord Loom
Loom Service
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Posted - 2007.07.13 14:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
I think this suggestion with the co-processor is a very good and simple one. When I have a ship and for some reason I don't have enough powergrid I fit a pdu/pg-rig/rcu and don't whine about it in the forums. So why should there be a prob with that co-processor?
And don't start telling me: "Hey you can even fly a capship, so shut up telling us to fit a co-proc ..."
Btw: When this co-proc restricts your overall effectivness to fit something else, maybe your fleet around you has to compensate for it? Or do you use your Phoenix as a solopwnmobile?
When every ship would be to fit so easy, we had basically 1 dreadnought with 4 sets of different optics/weapon animations. Think about that.
I want some of the stuff you're smoking
not reading the topic FTL, failing to see that the difference between ships of the same class can't be "1.5 of them are impossible to use a standard fit on without faction or fitting mods, 2.5 have plenty of grid and CPU left over", even worse
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King Dave
Itto-Ryu
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.13 16:49:00 -
[25]
Idiot, pheonix is overpowered...
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Malaan Tabfassh
Penguin Mining Operations and More
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Posted - 2007.07.13 17:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Xeliya
So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?
Yes.
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TubeChild TK421
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Posted - 2007.07.13 17:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Xeliya
So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?
Originally by: Incantare
Armor tankers don't have similar problems with grid.
With maxed skills:
giga pulseA rev gets 812 500 grid. Two capital reps take 125 000 each, and siege mod another 437 500 leaving it with 125 000 free grid with no grid heavy items left to fit. 382.5 CPU left. If you wanted you could fit a third capital rep (and nothing else).
Beams take up some more grid but then you still have 23 750 grid left along with 347.5 cpu for rechargers, EANM etc. That's still a lot of breathing room.
Moros gets 65 000 grid left after 2 capital armor reps, siege mod and siege blasters. 440 CPU left.
31 250 grid and 417.5 CPU left after fitting rails instead.
Phoenix has 117 500 grid and 293.75 after capital shield booster, siege mod and citadel torpedoes.
Way too much grid, not enough CPU. A t2 EANM takes 36 CPU, a t2 invuln takes 44. In general the shield tank is cpu hungry but the phoenix has less cpu left for its fitting.
For the Chimera it's worse because of capital shield transfers which have insane CPU reqs as well.
There's obviously a problem. Please fix Caldari caps CCP.
Well, armor tanking capitals don't have to give up a primary tanking slot if they don't need more grid, just like shield tankers don't give up a primary shield slot. You want a full rack of diagnostic systems? Sounds like a two-rack tank to me...and you're complaining that you can't fit everything else and the kitchen sink too.
And in my own experience, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the lesser ships requires fitting mods if you want to fit "the best" equipment possible, from frigate to battleship, T1 to T2, be it for CPU or armor.
Guess what people, fitting isn't automatically "okay throw all the biggest numbered mods on and win one for the e-p33n." Fitting ships is about making tradeoffs to maximize your efficiency in some areas while taking hits in others and hoping you come out with the more effective ship.
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Arcadia1701E
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.13 19:40:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Arcadia1701E on 13/07/2007 19:42:36
ALL these fitting issues are caused by the capital shield boosters far far to high CPU usage, reduce it to 260 at least.
And *TubeChild TK421* have u EVER flown a capital, the caldari are the only one with fitting issues. Get a clue.
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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.13 20:16:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Toffles on 13/07/2007 20:18:29
Idiot, pheonix is overpowered...
Judging by the fact that you can't even spell "Phoenix" correctly despite it being right in front of your eyes, I don't think I'm the one who is an idiot here. This is probably the last forum that personal insults belong in.
Quote:
Armor tankers can't run their reps indefinately
ummm... I never said they did. If anything all I've ever said is that they can run 1 CAR out of 2 indefinitely.
Quote:
(revelation certainly can't, with my guns running in gank mode, i am normaly below 50% cap, meaning if i get called primary i can;t run my guns for long)
This is probably where you turn your guns off and focus on tanking.
Quote:
Pheonix can hit super-caps and other ships that move, turret based ones can't hit anything over 0m/s.
That's a lie. I've seen ships as small as inties get instapopped by turret dreads from long ranges.
Quote:
Pheonix by using power diags, increases its cap. So when under heavy fire and is beiong nossed, it can run its booster permanently for longer.
A phoenix can fit PDS's that increases cap recharge by 8.5%. Turret dreads can fit Cap recharger II's with 20% and Cap relays with 24% bonuses. Which do you think leads to better cap recharge and more sustainable tanks? I refuse to believe you've been playing this game very long, much less fly a revelation, if you think a phoenix has a more stable tank.
Quote:
Did i mention pheonixs can hit ships while in siege.....
Yes you did, so can every other dread especially moros's with their battleship melting drones.
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Toffles
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.13 20:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: TubeChild TK421
Well, armor tanking capitals don't have to give up a primary tanking slot if they don't need more grid, just like shield tankers don't give up a primary shield slot. You want a full rack of diagnostic systems? Sounds like a two-rack tank to me...and you're complaining that you can't fit everything else and the kitchen sink too.
It means you have to replace a PDS II with a CPU where the other dreads fit the same number of cap recharger II's. Nevermind that PDS II's provide half as much cap recharge. If you want all phoenix's to fit a CPU in the lows, every other dread should have 1 less mid slot.
Quote:
And in my own experience, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the lesser ships requires fitting mods if you want to fit "the best" equipment possible, from frigate to battleship, T1 to T2, be it for CPU or armor.
It's not the "best" equipment. It's standard equipment you fit in order to get close to the dps and tanking numbers of other dreads.
Quote:
Guess what people, fitting isn't automatically "okay throw all the biggest numbered mods on and win one for the e-p33n." Fitting ships is about making tradeoffs to maximize your efficiency in some areas while taking hits in others and hoping you come out with the more effective ship.
This little rant would make sense if it actually applied to any other dread than a Phoenix. Here are two equivalent fittings:
Revelation:
3x cap recharger II
1x SB II
2x CAR
1x kinetic hardener
1x therm hardener
1x exp hardener
1x DC II
2x Heat Sink II
Phoenix:
1 CSB
1 SBA II
1 Cap recharger II
1 SB II
1 Invuln II
1 EM hardener II
1 Therm hardner II
2x PDS II
1x DC II
2x BCS II
Tank: 2x CAR = CSB + SBA II
Hardeners: 3x armor hardeners = 3x shield hardeners
Capacitor: 1 Cap Recharger II + 2 PDS II = 3 Cap recharger II (revelation gets much better cap recharge but its weapons require cap where phoenix's do not.)
Damage: 2 heat sinks = 2 ballistic control units
The dreads would be fairly equal. The problem is you run out of CPU half way through fitting your phoenix and the revelation has no issues.
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