|------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
 | Cap | HP | Time | Cap/s | HP/s | HP/cap |
 |------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
Capital Rep x 2 | 4800 | 19200 | 22.5 | 213.66 | 853.33 | 4.0 |
Capital Booster & Amp | 2160 | 8704 | 10.0 | 216.0 | 870.4 | 4.03 |
 |------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
 | Siege |
 |------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|
Capital Rep x 2 | 4800 | 38400 | 11.25 | 426.66 | 3413.33 | 8.0 |
Capital Booster & Amp | 2160 | 17408 | 5.0 | 432.0 | 3481.6 | 8.06 |
 |------|-------|-------|---------|----------|---------|

Originally by: Bein Glorious

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A couple things to note are that the CPU requirements for PDS IIs and Cap Relay IIs would get reduced by the Energy Grid Upgrades skill, and that EANM IIs now use 36tf CPU and not 30tf, but otherwise yeah, its all correct.

The CPU requirements of capital shield tanking gear also affect the Chimera, Nidhoggur, and probably the shield-tanking supercapitals as well. Its not really just a problem for the Phoenix.

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Originally by: Cyan Nuevo

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Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.

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Originally by: Toffles

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Originally by: Cyan Nuevo

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Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.

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It's not just "hard to fit", its flat out inferior to every other dreadnought.

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Originally by: Smelt Down

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Originally by: Toffles

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Originally by: Cyan Nuevo

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Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.

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It's not just "hard to fit", its flat out inferior to every other dreadnought.

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I find it hard to believe it is inferior to a naglfar. A naglfar doesn't even have the option of shelling out for faction gear to make it good.

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Quote:

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Caldari have a ship that's hard to fit? That's incredible, I think it should be left this way just for the novelty value.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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sumamrizing.. the problem is the CPU usage of Capital shield booster. reduce it a bit and would be fair for NAglfar (shield tank version), Phoenix, Chimera and some Nids that shield tank.

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Originally by: TubeChild TK421

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1 caveat though: Phoenix fits tank in mids, not lows. Meaning you have gobs more low slots to use (don't poke me about the others having free mid slots...EWAR dreadnaught is just a silly idea) Fit a co-processor and stop whining. :p

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Originally by: TubeChild TK421

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1 caveat though: Phoenix fits tank in mids, not lows. Meaning you have gobs more low slots to use (don't poke me about the others having free mid slots...EWAR dreadnaught is just a silly idea) Fit a co-processor and stop whining. :p

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Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh

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I think this suggestion with the co-processor is a very good and simple one. When I have a ship and for some reason I don't have enough powergrid I fit a pdu/pg-rig/rcu and don't whine about it in the forums. So why should there be a prob with that co-processor?

And don't start telling me: "Hey you can even fly a capship, so shut up telling us to fit a co-proc ..."

Btw: When this co-proc restricts your overall effectivness to fit something else, maybe your fleet around you has to compensate for it? Or do you use your Phoenix as a solopwnmobile?

When every ship would be to fit so easy, we had basically 1 dreadnought with 4 sets of different optics/weapon animations. Think about that.

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Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh

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I think this suggestion with the co-processor is a very good and simple one. When I have a ship and for some reason I don't have enough powergrid I fit a pdu/pg-rig/rcu and don't whine about it in the forums. So why should there be a prob with that co-processor?

And don't start telling me: "Hey you can even fly a capship, so shut up telling us to fit a co-proc ..."

Btw: When this co-proc restricts your overall effectivness to fit something else, maybe your fleet around you has to compensate for it? Or do you use your Phoenix as a solopwnmobile?

When every ship would be to fit so easy, we had basically 1 dreadnought with 4 sets of different optics/weapon animations. Think about that.

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Originally by: Xeliya

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So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?

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Originally by: Xeliya

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So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?

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Originally by: Incantare

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Armor tankers don't have similar problems with grid.

With maxed skills:

giga pulseA rev gets 812 500 grid. Two capital reps take 125 000 each, and siege mod another 437 500 leaving it with 125 000 free grid with no grid heavy items left to fit. 382.5 CPU left. If you wanted you could fit a third capital rep (and nothing else).

Beams take up some more grid but then you still have 23 750 grid left along with 347.5 cpu for rechargers, EANM etc. That's still a lot of breathing room.


Moros gets 65 000 grid left after 2 capital armor reps, siege mod and siege blasters. 440 CPU left.

31 250 grid and 417.5 CPU left after fitting rails instead.


Phoenix has 117 500 grid and 293.75 after capital shield booster, siege mod and citadel torpedoes.

Way too much grid, not enough CPU. A t2 EANM takes 36 CPU, a t2 invuln takes 44. In general the shield tank is cpu hungry but the phoenix has less cpu left for its fitting.

For the Chimera it's worse because of capital shield transfers which have insane CPU reqs as well.

There's obviously a problem. Please fix Caldari caps CCP.

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Armor tankers can't run their reps indefinately

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(revelation certainly can't, with my guns running in gank mode, i am normaly below 50% cap, meaning if i get called primary i can;t run my guns for long)

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Pheonix can hit super-caps and other ships that move, turret based ones can't hit anything over 0m/s.

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Pheonix by using power diags, increases its cap. So when under heavy fire and is beiong nossed, it can run its booster permanently for longer.

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Did i mention pheonixs can hit ships while in siege.....

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Originally by: TubeChild TK421

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Well, armor tanking capitals don't have to give up a primary tanking slot if they don't need more grid, just like shield tankers don't give up a primary shield slot. You want a full rack of diagnostic systems? Sounds like a two-rack tank to me...and you're complaining that you can't fit everything else and the kitchen sink too.

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And in my own experience, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the lesser ships requires fitting mods if you want to fit "the best" equipment possible, from frigate to battleship, T1 to T2, be it for CPU or armor.

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Guess what people, fitting isn't automatically "okay throw all the biggest numbered mods on and win one for the e-p33n." Fitting ships is about making tradeoffs to maximize your efficiency in some areas while taking hits in others and hoping you come out with the more effective ship.

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Originally by: TubeChild TK421

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Words go here

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Originally by: King Dave

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Idiot, pheonix is overpowered...
[...]
Did i mention pheonixs can hit ships while in siege.....

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Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh

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Originally by: Xeliya

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So your saying if I build a Wyvren (14b for mins + 2 months work) I should have to fit a Co-Proc to fit it with the best grear or go with low cpu crap?

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Yes.

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Originally by: TubeChild TK421

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Well, armor tanking capitals don't have to give up a primary tanking slot if they don't need more grid, just like shield tankers don't give up a primary shield slot. You want a full rack of diagnostic systems? Sounds like a two-rack tank to me...and you're complaining that you can't fit everything else and the kitchen sink too.

And in my own experience, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the lesser ships requires fitting mods if you want to fit "the best" equipment possible, from frigate to battleship, T1 to T2, be it for CPU or armor.

Guess what people, fitting isn't automatically "okay throw all the biggest numbered mods on and win one for the e-p33n." Fitting ships is about making tradeoffs to maximize your efficiency in some areas while taking hits in others and hoping you come out with the more effective ship.

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Originally by: CCP Garthagk

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While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Armor tankers don't have problems fitting a t2 tank.

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Originally by: Trass

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Originally by: Incantare

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Armor tankers don't have problems fitting a t2 tank.

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since when?

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Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes

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So Pheonix has bad CPU problem and you made good calculations on the problem.

Now make the same calculations for powergrid for Revelation and Moros, since that is their main use in weapons and mods. Then compare the phoenix's CPU problems with the Revelation's grid problems.

If Revelations can fit with ease, then phoenix needs fixing. If not, then we got balance.

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Quote:

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Since some people like to talk without checking it out first I did a quick comparison of a few standard dreads and then a T2 fit on the Wyvren and Nyx.

Dread's
Mom's

You are telling me there is nothing wrong there? Like if I really need to I can do Carriers/Titans and the rest of the Mom's/Dreads. They are all the same.

Note: Messed up on Nyx fitting and put a CPR instead of a DCU.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 16/07/2007 02:08:47

Quote:

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Since some people like to talk without checking it out first I did a quick comparison of a few standard dreads and then a T2 fit on the Wyvren and Nyx.

Dread's
Mom's

You are telling me there is nothing wrong there? Like if I really need to I can do Carriers/Titans and the rest of the Mom's/Dreads. They are all the same.

Note: Messed up on Nyx fitting and put a CPR instead of a DCU.

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Looking at the different fits for those dreads, it becomes clear to me that the phoenix's tank is vastly superior to the other two dreads listed. It can perma tank more damage then either of them. With that thought, I don't see a problem with the tight cpu, other wise your tank would be ridiculusly strong If you fit a co-proc the dps you can perma tank will probably be on a similar level with the other two dreads

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WTF Perma Tank? The Phoenix runs out of cap in less then 3 min running its booster. Which is half the time of any other dread.

If you want to see a faction fitted Moros it will out tank a faction fitted Phoenix any day, oh wait you can't pimp out a Phoenix . . . Let's also not forget Slaves work on capital ships. A pimped Moros has 80% resist+ and 750k Armor. Pimped Phoenix (not possible to do) has the same resist but 400k Shield. Also if you have ever been in a capital fight you booster/rep means jack with 10+ dreads pounding on you, it will cycle once or twice before ya die, and if your a shield tanker you will be lucky if it activates in time to help at all.

Also all shield tankers are like this bigger boost but cap drys up really fast, I don't see dreads should be any different

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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WTF Perma Tank? The Phoenix runs out of cap in less then 3 min running its booster. Which is half the time of any other dread.

If you want to see a faction fitted Moros it will out tank a faction fitted Phoenix any day, oh wait you can't pimp out a Phoenix . . . Let's also not forget Slaves work on capital ships. A pimped Moros has 80% resist+ and 750k Armor. Pimped Phoenix (not possible to do) has the same resist but 400k Shield. Also if you have ever been in a capital fight you booster/rep means jack with 10+ dreads pounding on you, it will cycle once or twice before ya die, and if your a shield tanker you will be lucky if it activates in time to help at all.

Also all shield tankers are like this bigger boost but cap drys up really fast, I don't see dreads should be any different

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Wow I'm suprised i'm explaining this to you, its almost like I'm talking to a child. I never said anything about perma repping now did I? Think about this very hard..... there is a certain amount of dps any ships can perma tank. That is, you cycle the repper and let the cap recharge, cycle repper, rinse and repeat. If you click on the links for the fits posted a few above mine with t2 tanks, the pheonix severly outperforms the armor tanks, in the amount of damage it can perma tank, but it doesnt fit. From a balance perspective this seems completely correct to me.

I never said it would perma rep its booster, but there is a fairly high volume of dps it can perma tank. And if you go under extreme fire, you can rep your booster and tank a ton more dps then any armor tank, though you will cap out after god forbid 10 minutes. I agree with you on slave sets, they shouldnt apply to dreads. But that doesnt relate to pheonix fitting so i'm not sure why your crying about it.

And its funny that you mention a shield booster not getting any cycles in before you die... this seems to suggest you don't know what your talking about. This issue is WORSE with armor tanks as their duration is TWICE as long. Also, noone is stopping you from getting a slave set for your pheonix and fitting a damage control. This would add a lot of hp as buffer for your shield tank should it begin to fail, not to mention the hull resists.

Really, think a little bit before you post and please don't go into a flame fess. K thx.

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Edit: Went and grabed this form SHC, Phoenix 17693.63 DPS - Revelations 17520.56 DPS and the rev can hold it's tank twice as long guess it needs a hard core nerf?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 16/07/2007 07:27:26
After crunching some numbers, I have found a dual rep revelation can perma tank a whoping 3% more dps then a pheonix. This is where both ships are setup for max tank, and is a fair calculation. In both cases, the Pheonix's cap actually lasts longer then the revelation by a few seconds. Thats while the revelation is running both reps of course. Seems pretty balanced to me... You really whining about that 3%?

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Notice how the tanks are basically the same there but the Phoenix is 100 CPU over? So shall we require the Rev a RCU?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 16/07/2007 16:23:36

Quote:

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Notice how the tanks are basically the same there but the Phoenix is 100 CPU over? So shall we require the Rev a RCU?

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Good point there. Personally I think it is fine the way it is. If your going into a massive fleet, drop the pdus for a co-proc and a damage mod. That extra little bit of cap wont save you from primary as you have pointed out. If you are going to be doing smaller warfare/skirmshes where you might need to tank a decent sized gang for a while, drop the damage mod and fit a co-proc and all pdus.

Then there is this point: You can always fit a turret on there. May sound crazy, but it really doesnt effect your damage output that much, and then you can field the massive tank you want without cpu problems. Really this ship just requires you to make a few choices, ccp obvoiusly didnt want supertanked monstrositys with 3-4 damage mods so it can out tank and out damage everything.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Well as I've said I'm preaching to the choir. Can you try to counter me instead of flaming me next time? Can you show me the fit that allows Moros to do this? I can't seem to achieve perma repping even with all cap rechargers in the mid slots, and with three CCCs on there.
thanks
Fluffy

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you're "preaching to the choir" because your argument is flawed

why would anyone need to counter your strawman arguments? why do you totally ignore replies to your absurd theories, even those backed up by numbers and setups, coming from a member of one of the most experienced cap ship fleets in the whole game - you know, the people who have to deal with this "overpowered if it didn't have to fit a co-proc" ship every night and day? how do you get the idea that a "Pheonix" can run a helluva tank as well as awesome DPS all at the same time and therefore must have the penalty of having to fit a co-proc just to fit a standard fit? how do you justify that this standard fit is still impossible on a "Pheonix" even if you use low-CPU faction mods wherever possible?

to put it bluntly, if you see nothing wrong with a ship that - unlike any armor tanking capital ship - ends up out of CPU after fitting a standard capital (shield) tank while having 1/3 of its PG free, you're an idiot, plain and simple

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Threads do not need trolls like this. I'm trying to have a decent debate, please keep the trolling out. K thx

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If you don't like having to make choices I have a game for you

www.worldofwarcraft.com

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 16/07/2007 18:22:01
Well Xeliya, you've further reinforced my point.

The difference between these two setups:
1. The revelation does 18% more dps with damage ammo. It also has a much more limited range. So it has a draw back for the damage, the pheonix at its max range will severly out damage the revelation.

2. The revelation has 6% more effective Hp

3. Both dread's caps last the exact same amount of time!

4. The two dreads tanks are within 1% of each other!

These figures are so close together it seems very balanced to me. Now where is the perma dual rep moros setup? Basically the large dps at 100km has a draw back, and thats a slightly weaker tank. Now tell me again whats stopping you from fitting a railgun if your wanting a huge tank?

this ship requires trade offs, you have many ways to fit it depending on what your doing. It seems like an idea POS sieging ship to me considering its range and damage. You don't want to be right ontop of the forcefield of a POS as your sieging it.

It seems to me that the only thing the revelation is soundly beating the the pheonix in is the effective HP. As I said before, you can drop a launcher for a missle point, and tie it for effective HP with an extra PDU, and still out damage it at safe POS sieging distances.

Whats stopping you from a faction tank exactly? YOu can go all faction damage mods, and hardners and PDUs and make it fit.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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The fact that it has 1/3 of its powergrid free suggests to me that ccp intended you to fit a rail gun also if you want to fit this massive tank. If you want massive damage you gotta make a sacrifice.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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ccp intended you to fit a rail gun

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The Phoenix has the worst range, it's called long range ammo that hits 200km+. A torp will go about 150-175km and take over 2 minutes to get there which by that time turret based dreads will have killed any capital out there.

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Dropping a launcher for a rail is the dumbest idea I have heard of TBH, you will have worse DPS then a Moros with out the Heavy Drones that hit as hard as fighter and have the same tank as the Rev.

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Really get some experience before you talk about something. I don't ever talk about command ships want to know why? I don't specialize in them or have good experience.

Experience > Calculator

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You don't siege pos's at 150km you siege them at 50km which is pretty much on the shields and capital fights 99% of the time are close range. You say you siege at a safe distance? Tower can hit out to 300km and locking range of any ship is 250km so there is no "Safe" distance. This shows right here you have NEVER had capital experience, so please stop talking about capitals.

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you're a lame troll

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besides, your reasons for why the Phoenix should be the only dread (besides a shield-tanked Niddy) that has to use fitting mods are rubbish, plain and simple, just because I point this out doesn't make me a troll. K thx

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to put it bluntly, if you see nothing wrong with a ship that - unlike any armor tanking capital ship - ends up out of CPU after fitting a standard capital (shield) tank while having 1/3 of its PG free, you're an idiot, plain and simple

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Have you checked the dps on dreads using this long range ammo? Its not all its *****ed out to be. Turrets don't hit as hard as missles at extreme ranges, though they hit instantly. Seems you just don't like missle flight time, which is a race wide problem with caldari.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Once again its all about the damage at range. Run some damage comparisions between the dreads at 180km and tell me the phoenix sucks.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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If you want to fight at close range what the hell are you doing in a caldari ship. By the time you've reached a dreadnaught you should realize that caldari are a ranged race imo. Of course your ass is gonna get kicked if a moros manages to get you into its blaster range, do you expect anything else? Seems like your asking for an I-win. You want the most dps at range, wihtout missle flight time. And you want to do the same dps as a moros in heavy drone range.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Last time I checked most of the faction shield tanking module requires less cpu then a t2 varient.

Invuln field II 44 cpu.
Caldari Navy Invlun 27 cpu.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Have you checked the dps on dreads using this long range ammo? Its not all its *****ed out to be. Turrets don't hit as hard as missles at extreme ranges, though they hit instantly. Seems you just don't like missle flight time, which is a race wide problem with caldari.

Once again its all about the damage at range. Run some damage comparisions between the dreads at 180km and tell me the phoenix sucks.

This one made me lol.

If you want to fight at close range what the hell are you doing in a caldari ship. By the time you've reached a dreadnaught you should realize that caldari are a ranged race imo. Of course your ass is gonna get kicked if a moros manages to get you into its blaster range, do you expect anything else? Seems like your asking for an I-win. You want the most dps at range, wihtout missle flight time. And you want to do the same dps as a moros in heavy drone range.

Last time I checked most of the faction shield tanking module requires less cpu then a t2 varient.

Invuln field II 44 cpu.
Caldari Navy Invlun 27 cpu.

You can faction fit a pheonix if you have a mind too, with good results.

[...]

You see you didnt piont out anything wrong with my reasoning. You used a bunch of silly phrases like my arguments are 'strawman' and that

Basically calling me an idiot for suggesting something makes you a troll. No need to make it personal man.

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Originally by: Lord Loom

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I'm just amazed by the amount of trolls who think they know anything about capital ships posting "use a fitting mod" here, seriously, WTS clue...

Originally by: King Dave

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Idiot, pheonix is overpowered...
[...]
Did i mention pheonixs can hit ships while in siege.....

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this pro was already adressed, still I'd like to point out that while citadel torpedoes do hit while in siege, they don't exactly do much damage to moving targets because siege mode also drops their explosion velocity, so maybe before making up crap about capitals you obviously have no experience with, STFU?

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kill 'em! we have backup gerbils - Deckard

Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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No I am quiet serious.

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And last words once again get some experience please, you donÆt fight at 180km nor can torps go that far. 132km max range that takes 2 min to get there and they are dead when the torp gets there. Notice how no one agrees with you?

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The Phoenix has the worst range, it's called long range ammo that hits 200km+. A torp will go about 150-175km and take over 2 minutes to get there which by that time turret based dreads will have killed any capital out there.

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Yes it does because the Torp wonÆt get there lol Once again experience wins. Max range is 132km gg.

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And last words once again get some experience please, you donÆt fight at 180km nor can torps go that far. 132km max range that takes 2 min to get there and they are dead when the torp gets there. Notice how no one agrees with you?

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yeah i wish you were quiet

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Show me a dread that outdamages Phoenix at 130km.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Also noone stops you from using your races other native weapon if you want a monstrous tank.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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I wish you would post something of value other then trolling.

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As for my experience I am sorry I don't memorize exact numbers, it's called a ballpark figure. Much better estimation then someone who said it had the longest range lol. Rest of the dreads can hit at 200km but guess what? No one cares because fights with capitals at that range happen once in a blue moon.

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did you actually check your faction fit suggestions or is all you know "they take a lot less CPU therefore they will fit"? (not to mention other dreads don't have to do this)

with "super-low CPU" faction mods you will get a setup that's significantly more expensive for about the same performance as the standard T2 fit your pals in other races' dreads can use. If you want to really "pimp" your setup with the faction and deadspace stuff that's more than "on par" with T2 mods, you need too much CPU again

seriously, give a reason why the Phoenix should be the only dread that has to go through this

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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I've replied here.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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I've replied here.

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I dont think I've seen anyone troll like Fluffy before..

What capital ship do you fly again Fluffy?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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I wasnt trolling, just posting some simple thoughts. The cpu on the phoenix sucks, I agree but it can be worked around. Now the carriers are another story altogether and it will be interesting to see what 'balance' comes of this. I'm guessing ccp will change absolutly nothing because usually when they suggest a 'balance' gallente just gets a buff.

Here is a faction phoenix for the record so everyone knows its possible:

Low slots:
2x shadow serpentis PDU, 3x caldari navy BCU
medium slots:
2x caldari navy invunl fields, 1 caldari navy em, 1 caldari navy thermal, 1 x republic fleet shield boost amp, 1x capital shield booster, 1x sensor booster II
highs: 3x citadal torp launchers, 1x siege launcher.

Seems pretty solid to me, you can swap out the damage mods for more PDUs if you want more tank etc, but being able to fit her out with t2 gear without a rail gun or a fitting mod would be cool.

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this is kinda pointless now but I'd like to point out that this is "only" a light faction fit, slightly better than T2 but using the lowest-CPU faction mods (including a shield boost amp that's worse than the T2 one), while you can fit full deadspace/officer setups on armor tankers if you have the cash to waste, and those will offer far better performance than this setup above - I think this was the point our resident MC poster was trying to make

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