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Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:12:00 - [61] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 13/07/2007 16:12:08 Originally by: Lolapa Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just because they are in the same market category does not make them same class. Anyone stating such a thing only expresses a serious lack of clue... Oh for gods sake. If you can't see that the Nyx is basically a large Thanatos please ask someone who knows the two ship types, or the game in general, because you obviously don't. You're just blurting out uninformed tosh. Thanatos Nyx Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Why am I even biting on your arrogant drivel, all I wanted to do was oppine on the Abaddon - Apoc thing in the list. Don't post stuff if you can't take people refuting it ffs. I'm off, you are free to continue thinking you're all that... glhf Oh geez if you want to be so strict, scrap the 'Mothership' term and put them in the same class (I will never think of them that way but if technicality triumphs over reason, oh well) . Does not change that fact that even a blind slaver hound should see that you cannot compare these two ships like you can tier2 and tier3 BS due to the huge difference in capabilities, useability and value between carriers and moms. As for your allegation that started all this, that all races tiers mostly follow a 'higher tier = same thing but better' philosophy, lets see... Frigs in general: Too lazy to look em all up but they usually all have different roles too. Cruisers in general: Tier 1: Logistics Tier 2: EW Tier 3: Combat spec Tier 4: Different combat spec Caldari BS: Tier1: EW Tier2: Missiles Tier3: Rails Gallente BS: Tier1: Drones Tier2: Rails Tier3: Blasters Minmatar BS: Tier1: Oddity Tier2: ACs Tier3: Arties Up to here, no better, just different Amarr BS: Tier1: Pulse Tier2: Beams Tier3: Beams but better Only other instance of this is Caldari and Minmatar BCs, and they made it into the OP too. Same thing but better is what T2 ships and higher ship classes are there for, not other ships of the same class the way I define class. (I.e. not just requiring the same skills or being in the same market category, but also being close to each other in capabilities, useability and value). There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Lore Isander Caldari Paisti	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Lolapa Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just because they are in the same market category does not make them same class. Anyone stating such a thing only expresses a serious lack of clue... Oh for gods sake. If you can't see that the Nyx is basically a large Thanatos please ask someone who knows the two ship types, or the game in general, because you obviously don't. You're just blurting out uninformed tosh. Thanatos Nyx Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Why am I even biting on your arrogant drivel, all I wanted to do was oppine on the Abaddon - Apoc thing in the list. Don't post stuff if you can't take people refuting it ffs. I'm off, you are free to continue thinking you're all that... glhf If you want to be picky then why not tell people that they dont fly HAC's or AF's, they are HAS' and AS'. There are no "Heavy Assault Cruisers" or "Assault Frigates" ingame, they are "Heavy Assault Ships" and "Assault Ships". --- How do I shot web?
Brother Tycho Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:34:00 - [63] Edited by: Brother Tycho on 13/07/2007 16:34:58 Amarr need the most attention atm. Inquisitor - Imitation kestral and a very poor one at that, give it 15 drone bay tracking disruptor bonus and 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level 3 high, 3 med, 3 low, 2 turrets. thus the missing amarr t1 prober frig is born. Coercer - not enough grid for beams and 1 mid slot, give it 7 high 2 med 4 low slight grid increase. Omen - Poor cap and fitting - extra cap and grid for the fix. Maller - Poor dps, change to 5% laser dmg per lvl from 10% cap reduction and raise cap so is like the abaddon and can go gank or tank Abaddon. Geddon - Slight cpu boost. Apoc - Change 5% cap to 10% optimal range. Sacralige - 5 highs, 4 meds, 6 lows, 5 launcher slots, replace laser bonuses to missile bonuses and place emphasis on em missiles. Damnation - Change from 4 to 6 lancher slots and give 5% bonus to assault missile, heavy assault missile and heavy missile launcher rate of fire and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level Command Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to heavy missile EM damage and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level. There you have it all amarr ships fixed. SOD Killboard
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:45:00 - [64] Heretic needs a buff (or Sabre needs a nerf). It has half the dps of a Sabre at half the range (if you fit rockets+pulse+med ext). Thats just wrong. I would like to be able to fit 5x Standard Missile Launcher II without gimping it to hell so it has some power, like... the Sabre. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:46:00 - [65] Originally by: Brother Tycho Apoc - Change 5% cap to 10% optimal range. Oooo I like that. Best idea for the Apoc that I have seen.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:48:00 - [66] Edited by: Incantare on 13/07/2007 16:49:13 I like the idea of the optimal range bonus, but why replace the cap size bonus and not the gun cap usage? They both allow the guns to be fired longer but one is extremely limited in its uses while the other is not.
ZombyDog Amarr BigMek Industries GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Kolwrath Yes good point. In the support role an Augoror very effect supporting both armor and shield tanks since cap is in demand for both. Its also great at helping out fire support Tach-Abbadons who usually have cap issues. Never thought of using it on POS modules. I guess with sentries outside of the shied now, logisitcs ships, either T1 or T2 will have a pretty important role. I have a Navy Augoror .. its role is "sit in hangar and look pretty". Well Ospreys have always had an important role in Pos warfare but as you note both t1 & t2 logistics cruisers of all types ( except the Scythe ) have become an integral part of POS defence. Carriers with capital logistics modules are also very important for the same reason, but have a higher risk associated with being caught outside the shields if the badguys decide to roll out in force. I'm not sure that the Navy Augoror is the kind of ship have around for its looks - But I cant wait until I've finished long ranged targeting 5 so I can get myself a shiny red Guardian.
Brother Tycho Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:08:00 - [68] Originally by: Perry Heretic needs a buff (or Sabre needs a nerf). It has half the dps of a Sabre at half the range (if you fit rockets+pulse+med ext). Thats just wrong. I would like to be able to fit 5x Standard Missile Launcher II without gimping it to hell so it has some power, like... the Sabre. ive no experiance with the saber only that ppl report it to be worthless. SOD Killboard
Gavin Darklighter The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:13:00 - [69] Originally by: Cmdr Sy You forgot the Omen, but that is understandable. lol "omen? never head of it..."
Brother Tycho Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:21:00 - [70] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 13/07/2007 16:49:13 I like the idea of the optimal range bonus, but why replace the cap size bonus and not the gun cap usage? They both allow the guns to be fired longer but one is extremely limited in its uses while the other is not. cant be arsed to crunch the numbers but with a rack of tachyons you will be glad there only using half cap and 25% extra cap does nothing when the sensible thing to do is fit a injector nowadays. SOD Killboard

Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:32:00 - [71] Edited by: Incantare on 13/07/2007 17:31:47 That's a good point. I was thinking it would hurt the heavily tanked solo autocannon fits but on second thought I would much rather see the apoc use lasers effectively.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:34:00 - [72] Originally by: Brother Tycho Originally by: Perry Heretic needs a buff (or Sabre needs a nerf). It has half the dps of a Sabre at half the range (if you fit rockets+pulse+med ext). Thats just wrong. I would like to be able to fit 5x Standard Missile Launcher II without gimping it to hell so it has some power, like... the Sabre. ive no experiance with the saber only that ppl report it to be worthless. Yes, the Sabre is worthless. But I'll give you 5 million a worthless unit, just because I like you so much. Deal? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Brother Tycho Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Brother Tycho Originally by: Perry Heretic needs a buff (or Sabre needs a nerf). It has half the dps of a Sabre at half the range (if you fit rockets+pulse+med ext). Thats just wrong. I would like to be able to fit 5x Standard Missile Launcher II without gimping it to hell so it has some power, like... the Sabre. ive no experiance with the saber only that ppl report it to be worthless. Yes, the Sabre is worthless. But I'll give you 5 million a worthless unit, just because I like you so much. Deal? .. Fixed it. SOD Killboard
Aspyr	Posted - 2007.07.13 17:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Yes, the Sabre is worthless. But I'll give you 5 million a worthless unit, just because I like you so much. Deal?[/quote You're just upset because for the cost of 1 Sabre you can buy 3 Heretics
Captain Crimson United Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.13 18:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Lolapa Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just because they are in the same market category does not make them same class. Anyone stating such a thing only expresses a serious lack of clue... Oh for gods sake. If you can't see that the Nyx is basically a large Thanatos please ask someone who knows the two ship types, or the game in general, because you obviously don't. You're just blurting out uninformed tosh. Thanatos Nyx Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Why am I even biting on your arrogant drivel, all I wanted to do was oppine on the Abaddon - Apoc thing in the list. Don't post stuff if you can't take people refuting it ffs. I'm off, you are free to continue thinking you're all that... glhf Arrogant trolling alts ftl. Go back under your bridge I say! Back! Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
Ynno Wanking and Weeping	Posted - 2007.07.13 20:15:00 - [76] Originally by: Lolapa Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just because they are in the same market category does not make them same class. Anyone stating such a thing only expresses a serious lack of clue... Oh for gods sake. If you can't see that the Nyx is basically a large Thanatos please ask someone who knows the two ship types, or the game in general, because you obviously don't. You're just blurting out uninformed tosh. Thanatos Nyx Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Why am I even biting on your arrogant drivel, all I wanted to do was oppine on the Abaddon - Apoc thing in the list. Don't post stuff if you can't take people refuting it ffs. I'm off, you are free to continue thinking you're all that... glhf Nope
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.07.13 20:23:00 - [77] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 13/07/2007 20:24:16 Originally by: Lolapa Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I'm pretty sure that if you "show info" on a Nyx, the title of the window says "MOTHERSHIP." And as far as I know, other players cannot dock their ships in your Thanatos, nor clone jump to it. edit to add: previous poster confirmed I wasn't imagining it -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.13 20:30:00 - [78] I'd argue that all destroyers need a boost - or another tier (somewhat akin to BC's). 1. Nix the ROF penalty. 2. +1 or +2 mid/low slots (depending) so that it can actually mount a tank semi-worthy of its sig radius... 3. +a tiny bit of PG to all of them... Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.07.13 21:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Ynno Originally by: Lolapa Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just because they are in the same market category does not make them same class. Anyone stating such a thing only expresses a serious lack of clue... Oh for gods sake. If you can't see that the Nyx is basically a large Thanatos please ask someone who knows the two ship types, or the game in general, because you obviously don't. You're just blurting out uninformed tosh. Thanatos Nyx Oh, and yes, both being listed under Carriers DOES in fact make them both carriers "Motherships" don't exist in EVE, the term is just a loose one coined by players and CCP because it sounds good. Why am I even biting on your arrogant drivel, all I wanted to do was oppine on the Abaddon - Apoc thing in the list. Don't post stuff if you can't take people refuting it ffs. I'm off, you are free to continue thinking you're all that... glhf Nope I don't normally say this but... pwnd. Not to mention the price difference is like comparing an AF with a BS. Anyone else sick and tired of people who claim any attempt to suggest balance must mean homogenizing all vessels. It's called balance, where things are different but equal (or close there is no perfect balance when there is variety).
Horza Otho Minmatar Infortunatus Eventus Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.13 21:27:00 - [80] T Y P H O O N

Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.07.13 23:40:00 - [81] Good stuff. Oh, and you are forgetting the eagle (while you remembered the moa). It needs another turret too. --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Veryez	Posted - 2007.07.14 02:34:00 - [82] I find it hard to disagree w/the op. However I would add: Muninn - very good ship, but lost almost all roles to the Hurricane Scorpion - Just train for a Rook and ignore this ship if you use ECM
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.07.14 07:24:00 - [83] One major thing to remember is a common phrase from statistics: "the plural of anecdote is not 'data'". Any ship in EVE (besides shuttles/freighters) is capable of hurting another ship in at least some situations (and especially in larger gangs where sheer numbers of ships are more important than exact ship choices). The fact that you may have had occasional success with a "bad" ship doesn't make it balanced, it just means you found the right situation to kill something. Now then... looking at it by PvP useage, the rarely-seen ships in need of help: 1) Khanid ships, except the Curse. See the "Khanid Mk. II" discussion for details. 2) Most Caldari railboats (Moa, Eagle, Vulture, Ferox). See http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543208 3) The tier-1 BCs, except maybe the Brutix. The other three are almost never seen, except for the occasional player who is too poor to buy a tier-2. 4) Stealth bombers: scrap the overpriced bombs, add covert ops cloak. Or at least make the bombs cheap enough to be worth using.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.07.14 08:11:00 - [84] - Claw Crappy lock range and only 2 mids makes this ship worthless. It is not useful as a tackler in gangs as you can't even use a long range scram on it due to lock range. The stiletto is just so much better as a tackler. It is not useful solo because it either can't track orbiting within it's lock range or it doesn't have enough mids to fit a close range setup. - Wolf Pretty much all AFs suck, but the wolf sucks more than others. Falloff bonus suggests AC use, but 2 mids suggest otherwise. You could fit artillary, but then you just have an expensive and crappier version of the thrasher. Thrasher does more damage, has better tracking, a bigger alpha, and has better optimal. - Breacher This thing is too slow and doesn't have enough capacitor. It could also benifit from having another lowslot (either add one, or remove a highslot). - Bellicose I don't even know what this ship needs. But compared to the highly capable ships from the other races (blackbird, celestis, arbitrator), the bellicose is a pile of crap. -
Venkhar Krard	Posted - 2007.07.14 08:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Phelan Lore - Bellicose I don't even know what this ship needs. But compared to the highly capable ships from the other races (blackbird, celestis, arbitrator), the bellicose is a pile of crap. Thats easy.. the webbing bonus from the huginn.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.14 08:50:00 - [86] Originally by: Venkhar Krard Originally by: Phelan Lore - Bellicose I don't even know what this ship needs. But compared to the highly capable ships from the other races (blackbird, celestis, arbitrator), the bellicose is a pile of crap. Thats easy.. the webbing bonus from the huginn. i'd not mind that bonus on apoc :D -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.07.14 09:37:00 - [87] If all tier1 battlecruisers gained a bit of extra velocity and agility, the ferox gained a 6th turret slot but still stayed at 7 highs. Then the tier1's would be just fine. If the vel/agi was a flat % boost the cyclone would still have enough of a boost to make it viable without any other boost as minmatar are the fastest by nature. The Fleet Tempest, its an expensive toy, get over it. All faction ships need a revisit but that can wait, its hardly mass produceable. The Moa +1 turret slot, fixed. Bellicose, Its only a grid issue, when fitted for ewar you go 3 mod armor tanking but can't fit any real tank, 400mm ftw ;( For shield its not so bad but you don't get to fit much. I guess its true that it needs a high moved to a med, but ... more pg would still solve the issues. Apocs, same issue with all amarr, to be truthfully honest, I believe all amarr vessels should have 3 bonuses with a -cap per level bonus as the racial all the time bonus. not the current 5% but maybe 3%.
ZombyDog Amarr BigMek Industries GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.14 11:03:00 - [88] Edited by: ZombyDog on 14/07/2007 11:04:38 Originally by: Horza Otho T Y P H O O N I'm not sure If I could agree with this one. Yes the Phoon gained a lot of notoriety when everyone was flying a nanophoon and prior to its bonus change ( from optimal bonus to launcher ROF wasn't it? )was derided as the most worthless battleship ever. But I love my Phoon, its a great workhorse, it can pack a decent armour tank, its pretty quick & light for its class, has a great drone bay. Its split highslot does seem to shoehorn it into a nos boat role though. I treat mine as a Domi that trades in its drone damage/hp bonus for torp launchers.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.14 11:12:00 - [89] Originally by: ZombyDog Edited by: ZombyDog on 14/07/2007 11:04:38 Originally by: Horza Otho T Y P H O O N I'm not sure If I could agree with this one. Yes the Phoon gained a lot of notoriety when everyone was flying a nanophoon and prior to its bonus change ( from optimal bonus to launcher ROF wasn't it? )was derided as the most worthless battleship ever. But I love my Phoon, its a great workhorse, it can pack a decent armour tank, its pretty quick & light for its class, has a great drone bay. Its split highslot does seem to shoehorn it into a nos boat role though. I treat mine as a Domi that trades in its drone damage/hp bonus for torp launchers. This is exactly why I did not include it. Personally I think it has issues (mainly the split slots) but it is nevertheless my favorite PvP ship and I do see a decent number of them in space, so to me it does not need immediate attention like those other ships. As for the fleet tempest being an expensive toy (and really it is expensive but not much of a toy) and so not deserving priority, I think exactly because of this it should have priority. The fix is easy and obvious, and even if it makes it slightly overpowered somehow (which I doubt seeing how powerful some of the other good faction ships are) it will not have a great impact on the big picture due to its price tag. But the Minmatar mission runners would finally have a ship to truly aspire to, and for richass PvPers it would offer something to use as well. Though Khanid MkII is by far the most important of these changes in my (biased) view. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.07.14 11:24:00 - [90] The omen is a pretty good ratter actually. Nice cargobay, needs very little ammo (just one set of crystals really, so you can fill all of that 450m3 with loot before heading back to base), has enough tank to tank 2x950k+support and enough gank to take down a battleship. All that with the agility and signature of a cruiser (and all the benefits that provides). Of course PvPing with it would be an entirely different story. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.



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