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Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: Liang Nuren Note: I always rounded to make the Caracal look better. Your attempts failed. On a side note, did you fill up ALL 4000 characters!? Haha, every last one. ;-) Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 07:03:00 - [32] Originally by: Liang Nuren Additionally, the damage on HAM's is too low. Even with the 15% boost from faction missiles, it won't be able to compete with any blaster-gank setups Note that I don't believe that a HAM Caracal should be able to directly compete with a blaster setup. But it should, at least, be able to thoroughly gank any blaster ship in its class if it can stay out of range. This is, of course, an all new brand of problem with regards to most Caldari ships' mass. Just thought I'd toss that out there before someone thinks that I think that HAMs should do the same/more DPS as neutron blasters. Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 07:29:00 - [33] The problem is simply one of powergrid. If you want HAMs on a normal Caldari fit, you need a RCU. But if you'd fitted HMs, then you wouldn't need that RCU and could fit a BCS instead. Since the DPS difference between HAMs and HMs + BCS II is minimal, the current fittings of HAMs are absurd.
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.17 08:54:00 - [34] Small gang pvp in eve atm is close range (mostly due to warp to 0). In close range combat, NOS, ewar, speed and tank count more than DPS and range. If you want these kinds of fight, don't expect to get very far (in even-numbered fights, at least) using a race designed for stationary, long-range damage specific and ewar bombardment. Train for ships more suited to the task! Minmatar - great speed, can disengage if losing/outnumbered but still enough dps to break ur tank. Has trouble holding down targets (except for huginn/rapier which are best in game). Gallente - best close-range tackle race, with awesome dps and tank to complement it - blasterthron is king of close range combat / drones make Gallente somewhat immune to ewar (5 large ecm drones on mega is lethal). Amarr - not great. A couple of good close range pvp ships but overall, quite limited and needs fixing to a degree. Caldari - worst of the lot close-range except maybe the crow (which is possibly the best interceptor for small gangs having tackle, speed and damage from 30km). If each race's ships were to become as different to each other as stealth bombers currently are, there would simply be no challenge or variety to combat. The skillbooks are cheap, why not try them out? DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.17 09:41:00 - [35] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: murder one Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 17/07/2007 03:42:18 Originally by: murder one Skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, then try and fit everything, along with Shield Upgrades 5 (reduces shield extender grid requirements), and then see how things fit. You may have to fit a PDU or something even with maxed skills. Point being: if you haven't exhausted every single possible setup option, then do that first, then put up a post about it. This one would fit perfectly to the "Buff Deimos, its not uber"-tread, dont you think? The problem with HAMs is not only the fitting, its also their horrible stats. 100% completely doesn't apply. With AWU at 5, the Deimos is total garbage. Hell, until the Deimos gets a 4th mid and enough grid/cpu to fit a best named medium cap injector to sustain it's mwd/web/scram/guns/rep, it's going to continue to be total garbage. Two heavy nos and it's dead in the water. So getting back to the point at hand- no, has nothing to do with the Deimos. HAMs are wonderful compared to any other short ranged weapon equivilant. Hell, you can even get faction HAM ammo from the LP stores now for an additional 15% DPS. That's HUGE. Well you can try to fit all the stuff you demand for the deimos on a cerb (doesnt even take HAMs to get in trouble). And what keeps you from fitting faction ammo on your Deimos? Nothing keeps me from using faction ammo for the Deimos (although I've never flown one, nor will I, ever.), it's just that faction ammo for the Deimos doesn't provide any DPS increase over T2 ammo that has already existed before. With missiles the Fury missiles' drawbacks where too horrible to use in normal combat with any real success unless you were station camping in a passive Drake or something. Faction missiles give you the extra DPS for 'free', allowing them to actually be used in combat. I'd never ever use T2 missile ammo in my Lachesis for instance, but you can be darn sure that I'm using faction heavy missiles in my heavy launchers. Originally by: LMAAAOOOO iteron mark v is good cos it can fit a gun and can fit lots of ammo same time
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 09:43:00 - [36] Edited by: Incantare on 17/07/2007 09:53:58 Originally by: me bored You're missing the point entirely. High tier weapons should use more grid end of story. Fit an rcu and stop crying. Did you even read a word I said? No I dind't miss your point, your point, if you want to call "stop crying use a fitting mod" is worthless. It's not a question of having to make sacrifices to fit higher tier weapons, it's a question of HAMs having broken powergrid requirements when used on Caldari ships. I gave you a logical argument, you did not. By your reasoning blaster fitting reqs should never have been lowered. Originally by: R3dSh1ft If you want these kinds of fight, don't expect to get very far (in even-numbered fights, at least) using a race designed for stationary, long-range damage specific and ewar bombardment. Train for ships more suited to the task! Each race has long and short range weapons in all sizes, and each race can fit those weapons more or less effectively (yes, Amarr has problems with beams), why should Caldari have so much trouble fitting their medium short range missile, when we have rockets and torpedoes that work fine for small and large guns? Training another race, beeen there done that, but I'm unconvinced Caldari missile cruisers should be for some reason excluded from short range combat.
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.17 10:58:00 - [37] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/07/2007 10:58:17 I can't fit an mwd and Heavy Pulses on my Amarr cruisers either. You'll have to make sacrifices to fit MWD, Tank and your highest tier guns. (Unless you are Minmatar with their overpowered medium ACs or Gallente with their free DPS from drones). HAMs work nicely on a cerb or CN Caracal though. Although I'm not sure if what they lack in range is worth the bit of extra DPS. On the cerb: Hi 5x HAM II w/ CN Terror Med Y-T MWD LSE II 3x Damp II (Or other EW mods of choice) Low 3x BCS II 1x RCU I Still have rig slots to do with whatever you want. Close to 400 DPS with good skills. - -
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:02:00 - [38] Ewar HAM Drake works well as well.
me bored	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Incantare it's a question of HAMs having broken powergrid requirements when used on Caldari ships Omen with heavy pulse: 80 grid short of mwd Thorax with neutrons: 94 grid short Rupture with 720s: 80 grid short Moa with 250 rails: 34 grid short Stop whining and l2p before you comment on game balance.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/07/2007 10:58:17 I can't fit an mwd and Heavy Pulses on my Amarr cruisers either. You'll have to make sacrifices to fit MWD, Tank and your highest tier guns. (Unless you are Minmatar with their overpowered medium ACs or Gallente with their free DPS from drones). HAMs work nicely on a cerb or CN Caracal though. Although I'm not sure if what they lack in range is worth the bit of extra DPS. On the cerb: Hi 5x HAM II w/ CN Terror Med Y-T MWD LSE II 3x Damp II (Or other EW mods of choice) Low 3x BCS II 1x RCU I Still have rig slots to do with whatever you want. Close to 400 DPS with good skills. The Cerb and navy Cara have the grid to fit them yes, it's the Drake and Caracal which run into problems. For the Caracal replacing a damage mod with an RCU and giving up its range advantage for a small increase in damage isn't effective. It is less of an issue on the Drake but again it is a lost slot when fitting an mwd which is not a sacrifice Gallente have to make when fitting ions nor Minmatar. Amarr don't have an easy time with fittings either, no contest here. Fitting HAMs as opposed to heavies isn't directly comparable to heavy pulse instead of focused medium pulse because where heavy pulses have longer range and higher damage, HAMs have higher damage and much lower range, why should they require losing a slot on top of that?
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:40:00 - [41] Originally by: Incantare Fitting HAMs as opposed to heavies isn't directly comparable to heavy pulse instead of focused medium pulse because where heavy pulses have longer range and higher damage, HAMs have higher damage and much lower range, why should they require losing a slot on top of that? HAM:HM::Blaster:Rail NOT HAM:HM:Neutron Blaster:Ion Blaster This mistake seems to be present in much of the counterargument of this thread. Most short-range weapon systems have significantly lower grid requirements than their long range equivalents because to use short-range weapons you need a MWD and/or cap injector. HAMs are the only short range weapon system with a significantly higher grid requirement than its long range counterpart. _____ Heat Warfare
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:46:00 - [42] Edited by: Incantare on 17/07/2007 11:57:16 Originally by: me bored Omen with heavy pulse: 80 grid short of mwd Thorax with neutrons: 94 grid short Rupture with 720s: 80 grid short Moa with 250 rails: 34 grid short Stop whining and l2p before you comment on game balance. Thorax with heavy ion IIs and mwd: 54 spare grid Rupture with 425 IIs and HAM IIs with mwd: 144 spare grid With 220 II instead: 345 spare grid. Moa with Ions, HAM IIs and MWD: 40 grid left, but hey guess what, Caldari gunships have plenty of grid. Omen: The only valid example. Amarr have issues as well yes, but they also have the option of downgrading those heavy pulses to focused medium pulse and it fits with 290 grid to spare. Where are the lower and higher tier HAMs? Notice how I used short ranged weapons in my comparisons and not arbitrarily the weapon that's hardest to fit? The reason is a rupture having to use an RCU to fit top tier artilleries doesn't affect how a HAM fitted caracal, a short range ship, performs against a 425 fitted rupture or an ion thorax, other short range ships. You're also switching from long range weapons to short range when it suits your point. Lol. Also you're using neutrons, the highest tier blasters, but there is no equivalent to neutrons for HAMs. Learn to play.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 11:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Santa Anna HAM:HM::Blaster:Rail NOT HAM:HM:Neutron Blaster:Ion Blaster You summed it up nicely.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.17 12:13:00 - [44] Originally by: me bored Originally by: Incantare it's a question of HAMs having broken powergrid requirements when used on Caldari ships Omen with heavy pulse: 80 grid short of mwd Thorax with neutrons: 94 grid short Rupture with 720s: 80 grid short Moa with 250 rails: 34 grid short Stop whining and l2p before you comment on game balance. Buddy, now show me the LOWER tier of HAMs I can fit on the Caracal as I can do with Ion blasters on Thorax when Neutrons do not fit ... Hint: Heavy missile launcher is not the correct answer. Learn 2 think before you post crap ... Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Captain Crimson United Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.17 12:15:00 - [45] me bored is an egomaniacal troll with a hangover. May his pod be killed multiple times out of shame! Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.07.17 12:18:00 - [46] HAMs are great actually - but they don't really give any advantage to the Caracal unfortunately... having to use a lowslot for RCU isn't cool at all. Aside from that you cannot expect to get the same tanks and setup with HAMs that you could with Heavy launchers. I actually found a nice "different" setup on the Drake for HAMs - most likely not worth it but I don't think it's THAT bad - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.17 12:18:00 - [47] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Incantare Fitting HAMs as opposed to heavies isn't directly comparable to heavy pulse instead of focused medium pulse because where heavy pulses have longer range and higher damage, HAMs have higher damage and much lower range, why should they require losing a slot on top of that? HAM:HM::Blaster:Rail NOT HAM:HM:Neutron Blaster:Ion Blaster This mistake seems to be present in much of the counterargument of this thread. Most short-range weapon systems have significantly lower grid requirements than their long range equivalents because to use short-range weapons you need a MWD and/or cap injector. HAMs are the only short range weapon system with a significantly higher grid requirement than its long range counterpart. Siege vs Cruise launchers have also the same issue. But Raven has "plenty" of lows to compensate. Caracal otoh has only 2 low slots. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Milton Keynes Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:06:00 - [48] Edited by: Milton Keynes on 17/07/2007 16:07:23 Originally by: me bored ...stupid ass trolling comments and numbers rigged to support a biased point of view.... This guy is just full of it - please ignore him. He isn't even worth replying too, although I like the explanations that you provided when you responded to his obvious attempts at trolling. Unlike those of you that actually have a clue, he has completely failed to put forward a single coherent argument to counter your points, but has instead chosen to post patronising comments and trade insults. What a loser.... In contrast, I'd like to say thanks to everyone else for all the informative posts for/against the proposed changes - it's all good reading
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Deserak Heavy Assault Launchers just take too much grid to fit on any dedicated missile ship, with a setup that will be useful for anything. One glaring inconsistency with HAMs to other waepon types is that it is the only short range weapon that requires more grid then it's long range counterpart. Ever compared Siege Launchers to Cruise launchers? You lost your credibility uttering that sentence. And don't get my Arbalest heavy assault launchers more expensive damnit.
LeMoose The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:22:00 - [50] hams are great the way they are. I use them a lot on cerb, drake and nighthawk.
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:31:00 - [51] I think HAMs would be made much more viable if the Drake had a missile velocity bonus instead of the kinetic damage bonus (which is too one dimensional for pvp). Before all you Caldari players start whining about how this would further gimp a heavy missile Drake's dps, I would be willing to give them back the 8th missile hard-point to compensate. The model does have 8 launchers on it anyway...
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:36:00 - [52] Originally by: 6Bagheera9 I think HAMs would be made much more viable if the Drake had a missile velocity bonus instead of the kinetic damage bonus (which is too one dimensional for pvp). Before all you Caldari players start whining about how this would further gimp a heavy missile Drake's dps, I would be willing to give them back the 8th missile hard-point to compensate. The model does have 8 launchers on it anyway... You know that's probably the best suggestion I've heard on improving the Drake's pvp performance. Originally by: LeMoose hams are great the way they are. I use them a lot on cerb, drake and nighthawk. Got a good HAM Caracal setup?
Zkillz kun Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:52:00 - [53] personally i think HAM's suck because they tank more fitting than HM's but don't do barely any increase in dps. however i don't think tehy are impossible to use. iirc i had this setup on my drake (never flew it cause my myr was better :P) 7x HAM (arbalest/xr-3200) -- med cap booster I 10mn mwd I med or lg shield booster II em hard shield boost amp warp scram -- nanos/overdrive i haven't checked in awhile but with faction missiles and the price of 1st/2nd best named launchers you could throw down some halfway decent dps with them ____________ Beets, You're among friends.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:06:00 - [54] I'm really curious how people can honestly continue to say "fit an RCU" when its simply plain that the Caldari missile ships can't compete with "the competition". The Thorax: WTFBBQPWN's the Caracal - any time, any where. The Vexor: WTFBBQPWN's the Caracal - any time, any where. Hell, capped out, with no tank, and against a gank fit Caracal it STILL wins. And the Vexor isn't broken. HAM's gimp the setup on Caldari missile boats too much for them to be worthwhile. Wait... here comes the "the Caracal can pick its damage type!" crap. So lets tell a fictional story. Once upon a time, there was a Caracal with a faction webber sitting 15km off the warp in point of a belt. The pilot was a smartie and knew that both the Moa and the Thorax on scan were using Blasters. He'd been playing cat and mouse with the Moa all evening. Whoops, in comes the... Thorax? Damn, better load those Explosive missiles. Hehe, he only has 10% resist to Explosive! So it'll drop the DPS from 305 to 229... but that'll more than overcome the time lost! So the Caracal webs the pirate Thorax at 15km, scrams it, and hits reload on those missiles. Meanwhile, out pop the Hammerhead II's from the Thorax. The Thorax is doing great damage with his drones - 150 DPS, and outrunning the Caracal's tank by 100 damage/second. Whew, he's glad he has that faction webber to keep the Thorax out of blaster range! 10 seconds goes by, and 3000 damage is missed. Finally, the Explosive missiles get loaded, and he's doing 206 DPS to the Thorax that has no tank! Woohoo! Only 61 seconds left to kill that Thorax! Time goes on. Man, the fight sure is getting close. Thorax is into structure! The Caracal's going to win! Uh oh... his shields are going down. There goes his armor. The structure's going too fast! pop Floating in a pod. The killmail says the faction webber survived. Warp to station... maybe someday the Caracal pilot will be able to compete. Taking resistances into account, and the time to reload missiles, Time to kill the Thorax: 71 seconds. Thorax' time to kill the Caracal? 65. With just drones. Yeah, HAMs make a great gank setup for the Caldari cruiser. Won't even be able to gank a ship in its class that can't use its primary weapons against it. Furthermore, the ship in question HAS NO TANK.... and it still can't gank it in time to avoid being ganked by non bonused drones. Boost PG on Caldari missile boats. At least then the Caracal would be able to fit a Lg shield extender (or make the decision to fit a MWD+RCU+Lg Shield Extender). Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:19:00 - [55] Looks like a story from caldaris everydays live, but you have to be fair and put the 2 small or 1 med drone of the caracal to your calculation.
LeMoose The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:23:00 - [56] Originally by: LeMoose hams are great the way they are. I use them a lot on cerb, drake and nighthawk. Got a good HAM Caracal setup? when u have 70m sp u dont use t1 ships
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Looks like a story from caldaris everydays live, but you have to be fair and put the 2 small or 1 med drone of the caracal to your calculation. It does include the 2 lt Hobgoblin II's. With max skills. ;-) Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:34:00 - [58] Edited by: LMAAAOOOO on 17/07/2007 17:33:56 Originally by: LeMoose Originally by: LeMoose hams are great the way they are. I use them a lot on cerb, drake and nighthawk. Got a good HAM Caracal setup? when u have 70m sp u dont use t1 ships Reeeetard response anyway this post proves that we should nerf caldari and amarr _______________________________________________ Originally by: murder one lmaaaoooo has made it into my sig.
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 17/07/2007 17:36:23 Originally by: LeMoose Originally by: LeMoose hams are great the way they are. I use them a lot on cerb, drake and nighthawk. Quote: Got a good HAM Caracal setup? when u have 70m sp u dont use t1 ships Didn't you just say used HAMs a lot on the drake, a t1 ship? The answer was "there are none", HAMs blow on the Cara. Like i said, a reeeetaard response "Oh hi i have 70m sp therefore I shouldnt give a ** about HAM's" _______________________________________________ Originally by:** murder one lmaaaoooo has made it into my sig.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:44:00 - [60] I interpreted it differently. As in "I have 70 mil sp, I can get good performance out of hams, therefore they're fine".

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