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Deserak	Posted - 2007.07.16 21:58:00 - [1] This post is regarding the current state of heavy assault missiles in the game. These "new" weapons have been around a while now and I thought some discussion on how they could be balanced is now in order. So to put it simply, almost no one ever uses these things. A simple look at the market shows they cost less in most cases then rocket launchers. Considering the benefits these missiles give to most combat in EVE, namely inside scrambling and webbing range, this seems odd. However, the first time you try and fit these to a caldari missile ship it becomes quite clear why this is. Heavy Assault Launchers just take too much grid to fit on any dedicated missile ship, with a setup that will be useful for anything. One glaring inconsistency with HAMs to other waepon types is that it is the only short range weapon that requires more grid then it's long range counterpart. That general trend makes sense as short range setups tend to use more grid intensive modules ( MWDs, cap boosters etc..) However HAMs require 20% more grid then heavy launchers. This makes capable setups essentially impossible to fit. For example a Caracal fitted like this would be a nice ship- Hi- -5x Heavy Assault Launchers Mid- -Large Shield Extender -Microwarpdrive -Warp Disruptor -Invulnerabilty Field -Utiltiy Slot (Ewar/Web/More tank) Low- -Ballistic Control Unit -Damage Control Unit/2nd BCU Try and fit that though and after 5 tech 1 HAM launchers (I have Eng 5 and AWU 3 when I attempted it) you will be forced to fit a Reactor Control Unit just to get the Microwarpdrive, leaving you with something like 20 powergrid left ( Medium Extender/Shield Booster does not even fit). Needless to say the setup leaves little hope against other cruisers. The drake does somewhat better, as RCUs count for more on the drakes larger powergrid, however most are looking at 2 RCUs to fit a workable tank to the ship, along with a MWD and Cap Booster. However, tech 2 HAM launchers will fit on nothing at all. Luckily the solution should be simple, a reduction in the powergrid requirements of heavy assault launchers. A number along the lines of 85-90 would likely allow for useful setups, while still making the fits close enough to full available ship fittings and force people to optimise through skills. It would also restore the grid requirement balance between long range and short range in the cruiser sized missiles category.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:13:00 - [2] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 16/07/2007 22:13:07 I put some additional issues in this thread: HAMerus
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:20:00 - [3] Edited by: James Lyrus on 16/07/2007 22:20:47 I agree entirely. In my opinion, neither Caracal nor Drake make credible HAM platforms. They're just about doable as supporting weapons on a few minmatar ships though. Cerberus can just about do it, but even then you need a fitting mod. Actually, I'd be happy with a 5x HAM II, MWD II and 2 BCS fit (and 'whatever' in the remaining mids) on a Caracal. The problem is, that you _need_ a fittings mod, to fit HAMs on a caracal along with an MWD. At which point, you've just lost pretty much all the advantage, because you've lost a BCS. Same grid as heavy launchers (or even less) I think would make 'em usable and useful, if still not entirely usurping the heavy missile niche. (Drakes are still slow, and have a lousy range) Although, if HAMs were affected by guided missile precision, this would go _some_ of the way to making them better choices.
doctorstupid2 Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:41:00 - [4] As morally opposed as I am to all things caldari, I agree. The powergrid requirements seem skewed, in laser, projectiles and hybrids, the high damage, short range weapons use considerably less power and cpu than the long range weapons. Why that is not the case for HAM's I cannot fathom a guess. Steel Rat > if they only knew we make this **** up as we go
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:51:00 - [5] Another whine that will make caldari even more overpowerd. ______________________________________________ some guy telling a noob that pirates doesnt check their age before attacking "ooh! an age quip! very clever,I'm probably older than you darling! xx
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:54:00 - [6] I agree completly, having to lose a BCU II on a Cara and lose damage just to fit HAMs for their higher damage is insane. It's less of an issue on a Drake but it's still losing a slot while a Myrm can fit a rack of ions, 2 reps, MWD and a medium cap booster without grid mods.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.16 22:59:00 - [7] Try fitting a Nighthawk with HAMs and a gang module... then you'll really see how completely useless HAMs are currently. Couple the downside of HAMs with the issue of missile flight time... and you see why missiles are outclassed in PVP. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Eardianm Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.16 23:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Tovarishch Try fitting a Nighthawk with HAMs and a gang module... then you'll really see how completely useless HAMs are currently. I stopped before I even started They do seem a bit tough to fit. --------------
me bored	Posted - 2007.07.16 23:17:00 - [9] It's the same with torps and every higher tier weapon with every turret. Suck it up and use a fitting mod.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.16 23:26:00 - [10] Eh, another Caldari whine thread. I wish I could say I was surprised. It's really unfortunate that this particular gripe is actually called for. sigh. Liang Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.16 23:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Liang Nuren Eh, another Caldari whine thread. I wish I could say I was surprised. It's really unfortunate that this particular gripe is actually called for. sigh. Liang lol
Valea Wrath Of Khaine Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 01:28:00 - [12] As a year long caldari player, and one who almost never responds to these kinds of threads. I gotta agree, HAMs are useless with the amount of grid they take up, and they are not better than heavy missiles, even if they did take the same or less grid.
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.17 01:54:00 - [13] They really seem more intended for Minmatar than for Caldari. I use three on my Hurricane along with 5 autocannons. Great damage. ------------------
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.17 01:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Hannobaal They really seem more intended for Minmatar than for Caldari. I use three on my Hurricane along with 5 autocannons. Great damage. I try to include at least one on all my Minmatar Cruiser/BC builds to give a little more pop when I have to go inside of web/nos range. I have some ideas on how to use them on a drake, but that particular build has a very specialized purpose. _____ Heat Warfare
Mitsuko Anari	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Hannobaal They really seem more intended for Minmatar than for Caldari. I use three on my Hurricane along with 5 autocannons. Great damage. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww While I admit HAM's have some use on minmatar ships that have the pg going spare, please, for the love of rust, take one HAM off and add another turret... Or fit that rack of highs on a cyclone.
me bored	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Incantare You're missing the point entirely. High tier weapons should use more grid end of story. Fit an rcu and stop crying.
Percy Loudbottom	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Hannobaal They really seem more intended for Minmatar than for Caldari. I use three on my Hurricane along with 5 autocannons. Great damage. You know, that's just what I was thinking. Generally speaking, short range weapons and fat, wallowing tubs like caldari ships don't go well together. :P but if you're not gonna put nos in the non turret slots of a cruiser or BC, HAMs are the way to go.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:23:00 - [18] Originally by: me bored Originally by: Incantare You're missing the point entirely. High tier weapons should use more grid end of story. Fit an rcu and stop crying. The problem with HAMs on a missile ship such as the Caracal that has to use fitting mods to fit them is that with the fitting mod they do the same or less damage than heavy missiles while still having the range restrictions. If HAM + BCU + RCU/PDU did significantly more damage than HM + 2x BCU then no one would complain. You have to give up a lot to fit Neutrons over Ions or Ions over Electrons, but you get a nontrivial damage increase out of it. That's not the case with HAMs on caldari ships atm. Caldari ships also have issues with close range (bad agility/slow/no tackle+tank) so the range sacrifice is a big deal, and should give significantly more damage. _____ Heat Warfare
Milton Keynes Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:46:00 - [19] Edited by: Milton Keynes on 17/07/2007 02:45:46 Another Omg Caldari suck whine thread..... ... ... which is completely correct! WTH are HAMs supposed to be fitted on anyway?
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.17 02:50:00 - [20] Originally by: me bored Originally by: Incantare You're missing the point entirely. High tier weapons should use more grid end of story. Fit an rcu and stop crying. Rockets do more DPS than Standard Missile Launchers, at a shorter range, faster ROF. So it's logical that Rockets take MORE powergrid than Missile launchers, according to your argument.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.17 03:23:00 - [21] Skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, then try and fit everything, along with Shield Upgrades 5 (reduces shield extender grid requirements), and then see how things fit. You may have to fit a PDU or something even with maxed skills. Point being: if you haven't exhausted every single possible setup option, then do that first, then put up a post about it. Originally by: LMAAAOOOO iteron mark v is good cos it can fit a gun and can fit lots of ammo same time
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.07.17 03:29:00 - [22] Originally by: murder one Skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, then try and fit everything, along with Shield Upgrades 5 (reduces shield extender grid requirements), and then see how things fit. You may have to fit a PDU or something even with maxed skills. Point being: if you haven't exhausted every single possible setup option, then do that first, then put up a post about it. This one would fit perfectly to the "Buff Deimos, its not uber"-tread, dont you thing? The problem with HAMs is not only the fitting, its also their horrible stats.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.17 03:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 17/07/2007 03:42:18 Originally by: murder one Skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, then try and fit everything, along with Shield Upgrades 5 (reduces shield extender grid requirements), and then see how things fit. You may have to fit a PDU or something even with maxed skills. Point being: if you haven't exhausted every single possible setup option, then do that first, then put up a post about it. This one would fit perfectly to the "Buff Deimos, its not uber"-tread, dont you think? The problem with HAMs is not only the fitting, its also their horrible stats. 100% completely doesn't apply. With AWU at 5, the Deimos is total garbage. Hell, until the Deimos gets a 4th mid and enough grid/cpu to fit a best named medium cap injector to sustain it's mwd/web/scram/guns/rep, it's going to continue to be total garbage. Two heavy nos and it's dead in the water. So getting back to the point at hand- no, has nothing to do with the Deimos. HAMs are wonderful compared to any other short ranged weapon equivilant. Hell, you can even get faction HAM ammo from the LP stores now for an additional 15% DPS. That's HUGE. Originally by: LMAAAOOOO iteron mark v is good cos it can fit a gun and can fit lots of ammo same time
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.07.17 03:57:00 - [24] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 17/07/2007 03:42:18 Originally by: murder one Skill Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, then try and fit everything, along with Shield Upgrades 5 (reduces shield extender grid requirements), and then see how things fit. You may have to fit a PDU or something even with maxed skills. Point being: if you haven't exhausted every single possible setup option, then do that first, then put up a post about it. This one would fit perfectly to the "Buff Deimos, its not uber"-tread, dont you think? The problem with HAMs is not only the fitting, its also their horrible stats. 100% completely doesn't apply. With AWU at 5, the Deimos is total garbage. Hell, until the Deimos gets a 4th mid and enough grid/cpu to fit a best named medium cap injector to sustain it's mwd/web/scram/guns/rep, it's going to continue to be total garbage. Two heavy nos and it's dead in the water. So getting back to the point at hand- no, has nothing to do with the Deimos. HAMs are wonderful compared to any other short ranged weapon equivilant. Hell, you can even get faction HAM ammo from the LP stores now for an additional 15% DPS. That's HUGE. Well you can try to fit all the stuff you demand for the deimos on a cerb (doesnt even take HAMs to get in trouble). And what keeps you from fitting faction ammo on your Deimos?
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.07.17 04:25:00 - [25] I found a way to fit 7x HAML IIs and a med smartie along with a tank on a drake... Faction PDS. They give 7.5% grid. Though tbh, thats still pretty crappy to need to resort to a 'luxury' item (non t1/named t1/t2) just to get the launchers to fit. On a caracal, forget it--just not enough grid/lowslots to make it worthwhile. The caldari ships with range bonuses make HAMs useful even with their sluggishness (kind of like the blaster rokh) but that only holds up in theory, before you attempt to fit anything. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 05:52:00 - [26] So lets compare gank fit cruisers... HAM-Gank Caracal: 5x HAM II (Terror Assault) 10mn AB II, Fleeting Web/Scram Med Shield Booster II, Small Cap Booster (200's) 2x BCU II I think you'll end up maxing your DPS out at about 305 with good (almost perfect) skills (and Kinetic missiles). You start with an "effective" 6500 HP, and your tank lasts 3 minutes (repping 50 DPS). Over the course of your two minutes, you'll rep 6000 HP, making for 12500 HP for a 2 minute fight. Neutron-Gank Thorax 5x Heavy Neutron II (Antimatter) 10mn MWD II, Fleeting Web/scram 3x Mag Stab II, DCU II, RCU II DPS should max out around 400 with good skills. Whoops, I forgot drones... make that 550. You start off with 12,600 "effective" hitpoints, and don't have a repper. Make it count! Ok, this isn't fair. I'm comparing Caldari 2nd tier to Gallente 3rd tier. So lets throw in a Vexor for fun. Ion-Gank Vexor 3x Heavy Ion II (Antimatter), 2x Small Dim Nos 10mn MWD II, Fleeting Web/Scram MAR II, 2x EANM II, DCU II 5x Hammerhead II DPS ends up around 365. "Effective" hitpoints start at 12,600, and you can rep 105 DPS for 2 minutes. 2 minutes of 107 DPS yields 12,600 HP repped. In a 2 minute fight, you have about 25,000 hitpoints to play with. The Moa - we all know it sucks, so I won't bother bringing it up... not to mention, this thread is about HAMs. So lets make a chart of this: Ship, DPS, Effective HP over a 2 minute fight, Damage dealt over 2 minutes, time to 12,000 Damage, and time to 24,000 Damage - Ship ----- DPS --- Eff. HP -- Dmg* --- 12000 -- 24000 - Vexor \| 365 \| 25,000 \| 43,800 \| 33 sec \| 66 sec \| Thorax \| 550 \| 12,600 \| 66,000 \| 22 sec \| 44 sec \| Caracal \| 305 \| 12,500 \| 36,600 \| 39 sec \| 78 sec \| --------------------------------------------------------- Awesome performance by the Gank-HAM Caracal.. So lets see how long it takes to "melt" the other ship (assuming it doesn't shoot back!) That is to say, we're looking for: dps = 0 + dps * time tank = buffer + tank_sec * time Therefore, time = buffer / (DPS - tank_sec) - Ship --- DPS -- Vexor -- Thorax - Caracal - Vexor \| 350 \| 52 sec \| 36 sec \| 22 sec \| Thorax \| 550 \| 28 sec \| 23 sec \| 13 sec \| Caracal \| 305 \| 63 sec \| 40 sec \| 25 sec \| --------------------------------------------- Stellar performance by the HAM Caracal! Well, it isn't really fair to start inside the Gallente optimal. So lets start outside the Gallente optimal. Lets assume that the Caracal is in a gang with someone that's got an Interdiction maneuvers gang link active.. and somehow manages to escape being webbed (and thus kites) both the Vexor and the Thorax. With an Afterburner. So we'll assume that the blasters don't ever hit and that the HAM's do. - Ship --- DPS -- Vexor* - Thorax - Caracal - Vexor \| 233 \| -- \| -- \| 35 sec \| Thorax \| 150 \| -- \| -- \| 65 sec \| Caracal \| 305 \| 46 sec \| 40 sec \| 25 sec \| --------------------------------------------- * The Vexor will cap out here without being in Nos range and get only about 5-6 reps in. This will bring its effective HP for the fight down to 14,200. Now this really is an impressive performance by the HAM Caracal. It will single handedly gank the Thorax! The Vexor will still win in this fight (even capped out) - though just barely. Of course, that made some pretty outlandish assumptions! Such as the 550 m/sec Caracal managed to stay out of web/nos range of the 1550 m/sec Vexor and the 1590 m/sec Thorax. I guess what I'm trying to say here is this: In order to fit HAMs on a Caldari Cruiser, you have to sacrifice too much, and get very little in return. The fittings for HAM's are probably just fine, to be quite honest. What needs adjusting is the PG on Caldari missile boats. Additionally, the damage on HAM's is too low. Even with the 15% boost from faction missiles, it won't be able to compete with any blaster-gank setups Liang Note: I always rounded to make the Caracal look better. Originally by: "QproQ" When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
Lance Fighter	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren Note: I always rounded to make the Caracal look better. Your attempts failed. On a side note, did you fill up ALL 4000 characters!?
Kyozoku Mutiny.	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Moa - we all know it sucks You just killed your credibility. This thread is now about moas.
Lt Angus Caldari the united	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:21:00 - [29] I used them on cerberus no problem but found them useless on anything else Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.17 06:23:00 - [30] Great post liang, nice to see an actual numerical comparison instead of a bunch of bs posted by random people. Keep up the good work.

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