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CCP : Please sort out the insurance farce.

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Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 00:55:00 - [1] His sec rating is going down, eventually he won't be welcome in empire. Easiest way to deal with ppl is just to go do something else for a bit.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 01:00:00 - [2] And oh by the way, highsec piracy is a valid profession in my eyes. Insurance payout is part of that profession's safety net. Nerfing X profession to help Y profession is not the answer.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 11:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Cipher7 And oh by the way, highsec piracy is a valid profession in my eyes. Insurance payout is part of that profession's safety net. Nerfing X profession to help Y profession is not the answer. High-sec piracy is a valid profession supported in full by the high-sec war-dec A safety net? Where is the safety net for the freighter pilots carrying billions in cargo? Nerfing X, a profession that has cropped up due to a lack of targets in lo-sec is certainly a good idea. Especially when it negatively impacts upon W, Y, and Z. It also causes a minority of people to disrupt a lot of the game for the majority of people. It's empire, it's full of carebears, they pay their subs, if pirates had their way just half the time empire would be as empty as lo-sec and EvE would loose a lot of subscribers. With that logic, we shouldn't have Wardec either. If Eve was a PVE game we'd have 5,000,000 carebears knocking down our doors. You know a few years ago what the best selling video game was? Myst. I never played it. Never met anybody who played it. But somehow, Myst was selling out in Walmart stores across the country. If every game based its success on # of sales we would have no video games out there except Deer Hunter, Myst, The Sims and World of Warcraft. What about the rest of us? What about the non-consentual PVP crowd? Where's our game? Oh yeah, it's Eve. If you really hate non-consentual PVP you are in luck, because %95 of the games out there cater to your kind. Luckily Eve exists for the other %5.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 12:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Plentimon Nobody, well no one but the true carebears is arguing that PVP should be completely disabled in High-Sec, or even that suicide ganking should be impossible. What is being argued is that there should be some kind of risk if you try it and fail, where at present there is none. If the miner/hauler fails to get away, the cost of the ship is generally going to be far less than the cost of what he was carrying if you decided it was a worthile target, and there is no 'safety net' for that. Meanwhile if you as a ganker fail to pop them before Concord gets you, you get the money to buy a new ship dumped directly to your wallet and you just have to shell out a bit extra for fittings. TBH, if you call yourself a pirate but want the game to provide you a 'safety net' so you can't really lose anything, you'd probably be far more at home among the much derided 'carebears'. Insurance isn't so much a safety net as part of the profit/loss statement for a criminal organization. Removing insurance would simply make highsec piracy less profitable. How profitable is it now? How many hours does one have to camp a gate? How many people do you need? How often do you need to go work on your sec rating? What's the success rate? How much profit is split? Its easy to sit there and say, "Oh its too easy, theres no risk blah blah" Well go do it. You think its easy money? Go do it. Hey I fly haulers just like you do. I deal with it just like you. But I understand that the grass is not always greener on the other side, that everything isn't as easy or risk-free as people imagine it is. Lets not kid ourselves. The real motivation behind "suggestions" such as "lets remove insurance for concord blah blah" is an attempt to remove highsec ganking by making it less profitable.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 12:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Ralgimanek Pirates=Biggest Carebears They only go after what can't shoot back, turn tail and run the first sign of a fair fight. That is not PvP its just pathetic. Need to implement some balance into the game end the insurance payments at all for being popped by concord and then get podded. Then high sec gankers will actually have to balance risk vs reward like everyone else int the game. Then go do it, big boy. Everybody who thinks piracy is so easy should stfu and go do it. /me waits for the million excuses ppl come up with for why they aren't doing a profession they claim is so easy and risk-free. Why aren't the 20-some odd whiners in this thread doing any highsec ganking themselves? Since it seems its SOOOOO easy, profitable and risk free. I mean what have you got to lose? Insurance pays you back. Go do it.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 22/07/2007 18:54:12 Originally by: Cipher7 Then go do it, big boy. Everybody who thinks piracy is so easy should stfu and go do it I know this concept might be hard to grasp for people like you, but some people actually have a conscience and can not simply turn it off and enjoy ruining someone elses day because it is 'just a game'... I know I could get rich isk-wise easily doing it, but I also know that I would probably quit the game after the first success because I could not look at myself in the mirror anymore. Bull. If highsec piracy would cause pangs on your "conscience" then do lowsec piracy. You know, lowsec, where you get a warning popup window so everyone knows the risks. Do 0.0 piracy. Go into 0.0 where all the big bad alliances live, you know the ones that camp gates and kill people like you, and go gank one of their miners. Excuses excuses. "Piracy is so easy and I can do it and get rich but I have a conscience." Yeah RIGHT, ya blowhard, blow a little harder why dont ya.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:47:00 - [7] As for the rest of ya. People who have never done a profession should not comment on that profession. I can respect that it sucks to get ganked in highsec. Don't twist your pain into stupidity. Just because another profession once affected you negatively doesn't make it negative. The average builder/trader/miner/etc who regularly carries stuff through empire for profit. You might make 100 successful profitable trade runs, and get ganked on 1 of those runs. Think logically. If %1 of your ore is stolen, is that really such a horrible amount of loss for a profession? Risk management. If you consider a %10 loss to be normal, do highsec traders/manufacturers really have anything to complain about? Should there be SOME percentage of loss? What is that percentage? 1 percent? 5 percent? Are we shooting for a %100 loss free game where nobody EVER loses a hauler? Removing concord insurance, you know who will suffer? Who is going to suffer? Mostly carebears, mish runners and new players. Whoops, had module hot-loaded and did not notice the green. Targets someone's can by accident. No insurance for jooooo. Whoops, using smart bomb in mission, some guy in cov ops comes flying in your sb range. Concordokken, No insurance for joooo. The pirates will simply take the profit/loss into account and you will still be here whining. They will simply make less profit.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 22:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well, I knew you would not understand it. Besides, lowsec piracy is still piracy so also a nono for me. It doesn't have anything to do with others knowing the risk you know, it has to do with empathy? Feeling bad for someone elses loss? Another thing you won't understand probably. I am sure when you see a pedestrian crossing the street on a red light you try to run him over because he 'knows the risk' ? When I shoot someone, I fully expect to be able to go to a bar with him afterwards and have a beer. I don't shoot people to cause them emotional anguish in RL. The assumption is we are consenting adults playing a pvp video game. Could be him ganking me, could be me ganking him. Any ship I undock with is automatically considered a loss. If I'm not ok to lose it, I don't undock with it. This morning I took a t1 hauler filled with 300m worth of stuff from 0.0 to my preferred trading location to sell. It was a total rush, my heart was pounding out of my chest, I was screaming and hollering, giddy from the rush, I was like "YEAH MOTHERF@CKERS YEAH YOU CANT TOUCH THIS." I mean that's what I play Eve for man. Its a total freakin rush. And if they had got me, I woulda been bummed out for about 15 seconds, then I'd go eat pancakes and watch cartoons. I don't really understand people who are like "feeling of loss, empathy." Dude are you playing a video game or working a second job?
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 22:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Kizbet But when one of those noobs in their hauler gets suicide ganked by them it's "live and learn!". Industrialists have the best position in the game. When people like me lose a ship, people like you get paid. How much money you got? Prolly 50 times more than me. Yeah keep workin that "woe is me" speech.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Yep..It's hard being a pirate..I mean...being unable to enter hi-sec issuch a pain...oh wait...I forgot..I can use one of my many alts! Paying insurance on suiciders is stupid...no company with any business acumen whatsoever would do it...Nor would CONCORD or the respective factions look favourably on companies that openly aided and abetted criminals. People always come up with the counter to any Real Life comparisons by saying..It's a game...well..a game based on the advancement of humans and such..ergo grounded in our current reality...and If grounded in a reality where payments for a suicide are refused/Police seize a criminal's assets..surely..it is a logical path that payments for illegal ventures(Suicide Ganking)are removed. There is also a case for Pilots with pirate/outlaw status being kicked from certain NPC corps...any faction navy/training schools etc...but that is another debate and until certain aspects of logical realism are brought in..it is,like disposable alts,fine for people to hide in NPC corps without fear of retribution. Yeah lets remove crime from Eve. Then we can all have a mining op and eat pie. Won't that be fun. What is highsec ganking? It's simply crime. Should there be no Crime in Eve? Should there be no robbery? In New York City there are 40,000 cops, but people still get robbed, carjacked, murdered, corruption, embezzlement and so forth. Highsec ganking is one of the Eve approximations of Crime. Why does insurance pay criminal? I dunno, why does insurance pay the Mafia when they burn down their own store? Because they're the Mafia. Because Crime always finds a way. No matter how many jails they build, no matter how many cops, there will always be crime. I suppose its possible to remove crime from Eve. We can make it so if you try to shoot anybody you get a "sorry you cannot do that" above your head. Yet Crime is specifically allowed. Why is that? Because Crime is what makes Eve Eve. Here you CAN be a criminal. I'm not a criminal but I would not want to play any game where there is no crime, no robbery and so forth. Solution : Get a thicken skin, grow a brain, manage your risks, only undock with what you can afford to lose, and stop being lazy. If you take 200m worth of stuff in a ship that costs more than 200m to gank, they cant gank you. Cost/Benefit ratio. If you take 1b worth of stuff in t1 indy to Jita, its like walking down a dark alley with a Rolex. You are just plain asking for it. Welcome to Eve.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:26:00 - [11] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Cipher7 I liked this part Solution : Get a thicken skin, grow a brain, manage your risks, only undock with what you can afford to lose, and stop being lazy. err ok then do it without insurance. no one said no ganking in highse. -oh? you don't want to gank without insurance? well "Get a thicken skin" -you don't know how you'll afford this? "grow a brain" -how will I make profit if the freighter doesn't pay out!?! "manage your risks" -but the payout is what makes it ok to lose my ship "only undock with what you can afford to lose" -you like getting all you money back without having to work for it? "stop being lazy" Pirates have adapted and will continue to adapt. Carebears such as yourself will continue to bleat. Nothing will change but the mechanics. Remember what ppl were saying about can tagging? What changed? Nothing. Now people like you still get robbed and newbies who try to take back their stuff get hurt. Crime didn't stop, it just evolved into something nastier. How many times need we go down this road?
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Malachon Draco The matter of suicide ganking and insurance only determines the level of loot at which crime becomes profitable, and not the question whether crime will occur. An iteron 5 with 2 billion in cargo getting suicided by a caracal, insurance or not would be irrelevant. Yes exactly. What you are asking for, a crime nerf. Make crime pay less. Make criminals wait more for a profitable target. I do not believe there is ENOUGH crime in Eve to warrant nerfing the crime profession. Out of all the haulers and freighters out there, how many get ganked in highsec every day? 2? 3? 5? And that's supposed to be a crime wave? I guess my threshold for grittiness is higher than most. I'm almost thrilled when someone tries to rob me, it happens so rarely that its like "wow this guy is actually trying to ransom me, how cool!" I've been robbed and ganked a few times. Not nearly enough to raise an eyebrow or cause me to think "wow eve is really hardcore" If Eve was a city it wouldn't be New York, theres not nearly enough crime. It would be more like Wabash, Wisconsin. You wanna eliminate %90 of crime in Eve? Use a tanked transport to haul valuable stuff. Its so easy to operate risk-free in Eve, I never understand what everybody's complaining about.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Jacques Danton And if you are so adaptable why the whine of such proportions Because I like the concept of having Crime in a MMORPG even though I am a victim of it myself from time to time. And no, I am not a pirate, though I support the existance of the piracy profession. Any questions?
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:07:00 - [14] Originally by: Jacques Danton stuff I realize this thread is not asking for a Crime removal, its asking for a crime reduction. My position is simply there is not enough crime in Eve to warrant this. I think there should be a good balance of all professions, and I believe at this time crime does not have a significant impact on highsec commerce. Dont remember what you wrote earlier but I will scroll up.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Jacques Danton Oh, and Cypher7 - you think industrialists have it easier - go play one and come back in an year. I'm looking forward to your excuses as to why you cannot/will not do that even though piracy is supposed to soooooooooooooooo hard and blah-blah... I mine, I build, I trade, I fight. At this time I do not practice piracy. This is not about "my profession" vs "your profession." Get a grip scrub.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Jacques Danton mental diarrhea
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:05:00 - [17] You know what kind of changes I'd like to see? I'd like to see people in NPC corps be wardeccable. So if a bunch of SWA gank my hauler, I can make them pay. Often theres no accountability, no way to make people pay for their crimes. I respect criminals that actually join criminal corps, so you can wardec them. I think anybody who practices crime should be in a corp. And furthermore I think you should have to be in a corp to post on the forums, theres too many cowards running their mouths with alts. Props to the ppl who posted with their mains. The rest of you posting with alts are a disgrace.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Plentimon The more obvious solution though, which I'm sure you'll yell about being an attempt to nerf the oh so adaptable pirates, is that if you drop sec status, you get booted from your NPC corp. That's a good idea, but wouldn't the SWA guy just recycle to another alt?
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:36:00 - [19] Originally by: MotherMoon how about noob corp players don't get to use insurance? why not make sec stats effect what insurance plan you can get? First suggestion would hurt new players. Second suggestion, no because piracy is a valid profession and therefor should not be penalized.

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