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Fleet combat, ruined solo PVP and the solution

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murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:35:00 - [1] Back in the day (way before I was playing), battleships were rare. I'm sure that a fleet of twenty or so BS with support was an awesome sight, but currently it's not unusual to see a fleet with a core of over one hundred battleships. The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. Due to lag and other unavoidable real world limits, it is impossible to deal with the effects of mismatched scale in a reasonable manner when it comes to balancing battleship design and fleet requirements. Unfortunately CCP didn't think so. The tried to 'increase combat time' by reducing the damage of T2 ammo by 20%, reduced range on T2 ammo by 20%, increased the HP of ships, twice, and introduced rigs where the only effective rigs are defensive in nature. This has now moved ship combat to a defensive posture, favoring the defender by giving him increased time to call in friends, make the attacker endure gate gun fire for a much longer time and removing the effectiveness of DPS ship setups to the point that it now takes a minmum of two and usually three comparably sized ships (compared to the target) to ensure a quick and decisive kill. All of these changes has simply reinforced the concept of 'blob' warfare and has severely reduced the viability of solo combat, and even more so has reduced the viability of dissimilar combat using smaller ships to destroy larger ships solo, due to the already very limited DPS of smaller ships (when compared to ships of larger size). THE SOLUTION: Ships of the line. These would be ships placed squarely between Dreadnaughts and Battleships. "Pocket Dreads" if you will, but indeed, they would not be genuine 'pocket dreads' because they are more like battleships than Dreadnaughts. Each race would get 4 high slots, with Amarr and Gallente getting 4x turret hardpoints, Caldari getting 4x missile hardpoints, and Minmatar would get 4x turret and 4x missile hardpoints for maxium flexibility. HP for struc/armor/shield would be approximately 50% of Dreadnaughts. Slot count would be reduced compared to Dreads, and indeed, even battleships, to make each slot more important in the setup. 4 highs / 4 mids / 6 lows for Gallente, 4/3/7 for Amarr, 4/5/5 for Minmatar and 4/6/4 for Caldari. The ships would have their grid/cpu designed appropriatly so they could be fit with a single capital rep/shield booster. New weapon systems would be introduced. Each race would have a long/short range weapon system similar to the current Dreadnaught designs, but sized and balanced for use against ships of the line and smaller support ships. As an EXAMPLE: 1000mm Strike Railgun 200% optimal range (i.e. 100% increase), 400% base damage of 425mm Railgun II, same tracking, cap use and signature resolution. What this does is it gives a 200% increase in DPS over a T2 fit Battleship, because only 4 turrets are fit, and it reduces lag due to individual calculations for each turret. <continued> Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:36:00 - [2] reserved Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:36:00 - [3] reserved Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Anope High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:41:00 - [4] Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D
Jin Steele Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:42:00 - [5] The solution is not bigger ships, that was proven with titans. Also, in order for tanks to be equal at all, the armor tankers will need to be able to fit 2 reps, or else shield tanks will be 50% stronger from the start. _________________________________________________________
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D are you unaware of the patch going live TODAY! you fail at eve. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:48:00 - [7] Edited by: BluOrange on 24/07/2007 02:48:31 A pocket dread would be an interesting tactical option. But it won't fix blobbing. Blobbing is a strategic problem, tactical variations cannot (and therefore will not) fix blobbing. To fix blobbing, you have to provide a strategic incentive for people to disperse their forces, rather than concentrating them. Recruitment FAQ
Jin Steele Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:50:00 - [8] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:45:05 Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:44:30 Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D There is a fix for desynch going live... now. please don't insult CCP when you don't know the facts. Have you been on the test server :) _________________________________________________________
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 02:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D Let's stay on topic and just discuss the idea of fleet fights, shall we? Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Jin Steele The solution is not bigger ships, that was proven with titans. Also, in order for tanks to be equal at all, the armor tankers will need to be able to fit 2 reps, or else shield tanks will be 50% stronger from the start. Once again, you have no grasp of the mechanics of the situation. Titans have nothing (nothing) to do with the discussed situation. Titans are also not a front line ship, they're a support ship (regardless of how they've been used in the past). Titans got a huge nerf, and what I'm discussing here is a commonplace replacement for the battleship as the core of an assault fleet. The suggested design will fit neatly between the existing battleships and Dreads, and the battleships can go back to being balanced as they once were (indeed, all the smaller ships could), and it would introduce new styles of play to 0.0 fleet warfare. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Jin Steele Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:45:05 Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:44:30 Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D There is a fix for desynch going live... now. please don't insult CCP when you don't know the facts. Have you been on the test server :) was that at me? then yes I was in the mess. or is this something different... ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:08:00 - [12] Originally by: BluOrange Edited by: BluOrange on 24/07/2007 02:48:31 A pocket dread would be an interesting tactical option. But it won't fix blobbing. Blobbing is a strategic problem, tactical variations cannot (and therefore will not) fix blobbing. To fix blobbing, you have to provide a strategic incentive for people to disperse their forces, rather than concentrating them. Yes, it would fix blobbing because of the abstract way in which the ships could be deployed. Because a single fleet ship won't be instapopped when they warp in, and will require multiple cycles from an enemy fleet to destroy, it gives an FC time to act, and this time to act is what will make the difference. With increased time, you can warp in multiple groups from different directions, you can split your forces so that the enemy fleet can't apply all of their firepower to you at once, while you position your forces to apply all of your collective firepower against them. Warping in a half short ranged and half long ranged fleet is another option. Because the ships won't insta-pop, you have time to load the grid and coordinate attacks. Current attacks are very simple and straight forward because that is how the ship/play balance is. You warp in and it's now a race to see who can lock who first. Once you're over a certian critical number of ships in your fleet, it doesn't matter who has the most firepower as much as who can lock targets the fastest. Additionally, you can further exploit lag by warping in and killing a few ships, then running off. You don't commit your forces at all. With these larger ships that won't be a viable tactic as you can't do enough DPS to a single target to destroy it and then jump out right away. Larger ships will force the commitment of your fleet to an attack, and again, the increased time will give the defender a chance to react to the enemy fleet and form a workable defence or counter attack. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:18:00 - [13] Edited by: cal nereus on 24/07/2007 03:18:50 Solo PvP is like spontaneous murder, a duel, or an Australian guy brandishing a really big knife at a couple of punk teenagers with tiny knives. Fleet PvP is like the US Marine Corps fighting an army, or perhaps a coalition of armed fellows with a common cause. Which of the above two do you prefer?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D point is Originally by: CCP Abathur The 2.1 patch primarily focuses on the de-synch and lag issues. Without fixing that, everything else is irrelevant. The last couple of stress tests on SiSi have been very promising in this regard. The 2.2 will be more balancing and content. This particular issue about starbase modules has received a lot of attention and should be vastly improved. yesterday ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:23:00 - [15] so everybody would just start blobbing with pocked dreads.. still like the idea tough:O
M0rkar Amarr Empire Carebears Soul of Fountain	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:28:00 - [16] So, they will just ignore your Pocket Dread and kill all those filthy BS which are goin down faster and deal 50% of the dps
Richard Aiel Caldari MicroFunks	Posted - 2007.07.24 03:56:00 - [17] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:45:05 Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:44:30 Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D There is a fix for desynch going live... now. please don't insult CCP when you don't know the facts. lol i love how yer insulting the guy fer not knowing the "facts" when we dont even know if the fix WORKS YET We have never, nor will we ever, hack, ddos, or otherwise use OUT OF GAME means to gain ANY advantage.- Dianabolic
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.24 04:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:45:05 Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:44:30 Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D There is a fix for desynch going live... now. please don't insult CCP when you don't know the facts. lol i love how yer insulting the guy fer not knowing the "facts" when we dont even know if the fix WORKS YET Even if the fix turns out to not work, it's stupid to say "decided not to fix". ------------------
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.24 04:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:45:05 Edited by: MotherMoon on 24/07/2007 02:44:30 Originally by: Anope Originally by: murder one The scale of combat has exceeded CCP's ship design. It is impossible to tank a single battleship to withstand an alpha strike of 30+ battleships. <continued> Thats simple, Fights with possibly around 100 battleships and 30+ BS alpha strike on a single target is very hard to come by... because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch, thus making it very hard to utulize that :D There is a fix for desynch going live... now. please don't insult CCP when you don't know the facts. lol i love how yer insulting the guy fer not knowing the "facts" when we dont even know if the fix WORKS YET Ok excuse me but try reading what he posted again. "because CCP in their infinite intelect decided not to fix Desynch" this has nothing to do with if the fix works or not. he is saying that CCP has decided not to fix it. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 04:53:00 - [20] Originally by: M0rkar So, they will just ignore your Pocket Dread and kill all those filthy BS which are goin down faster and deal 50% of the dps No, I don't think that they will, mostly due to the fact that fleets will change and the majority of the fleets won't be fielding battleships as long range line ships like they are now. I think that the fleet combat ships, FCS for short, (what I'm now calling line ships) will be used to fix the enemy in position and keep them engaged while seperate elements of a fleet in battleships warp in at close range on top of the enemy FCS fleet and engage them where their superior speed and agility can help them against the larger ships. Mostly meaning outflying their guns and overcoming their tracking at short range. If battleships sit at the traditional 100-200km range and try and duke it out with an FCS fleet, yes, they'll get ripped to shreds. Hence, they won't be used in that manner any more. FCS will form the core of the battlegroups and the positions of the FCS in space will form the combat areas around which the fights evolve. It will take quite a bit of time to bring one down, even in very big fleet fights, and there will be a lot of opportunity for the smaller ships to keep warping in and out, changing ranges, getting new warp in points etc. The key difference between FCS and Dreads is that they're designed to do exactly what a Dread is not: fight ships. Dreads are good at sieging POSes. That's about it. Against anything else they're relatively very weak, especially when out of siege mode. The whole point of the FCS class is a ship that can fight against other ships, survive more than a battleships 5 seconds in a big fleet fight, and bring some options and decision making time when fleets of 2-300 people engage each other. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Copine Callmeknau Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 24/07/2007 05:22:13 Please god yes. Implement these new ships, and revert all other sub capital HP's back to pre kali values. Please unnerf T2 ammo's in the process, seriously, you nerfed Quake damage/range, what in the hell was the point of that? Hail sucks beyond belief with the falloff nerf. How can we possibly use the ammo when we have to get inside blaster optimal to fire it. Before there were tactics involved with hail, you had to carefully kite the opponent if he was using void. Now it's simply "Use hail, oh crap he's using void... now we're dead" But yeh, CCP's changes to make fleet battles more interesting pretty much stabbed solo PvP in the face in the process. Once upon a time I could use an unorthadox rupture setup to kill HAC's and BC's in combat. This was due to having flown the ship for a solid year, knowing all the in's and out's, everything the ship, guns, and ammunition was capable of. Kali nerfed that out of existence. Made the game into a very 'That ship always kills this ship, this ship always kills that ship', tactics completely left the building. Oops, ranted a little there. Anyway, bring these changes in. Make a distinction between ships prefered for fleets, and ships prefered for solo players. Make the game one that fleet battlers AND solo pilots can enjoy. Not one or the other. ----- Originally by: Patch86 Depressing as hell though. By the end, you feel like someone's eaten your kitten.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:33:00 - [22] Edited by: prathe on 24/07/2007 05:42:30 every attemp to curtail blobbing just makes bigger blobs starbase structure that can be attacked are so hp heavy that you need a fleet of bs's to take them down in a reasonable amount of time and you will need to have haulers bring you a reload of ammo while you sit there and plug away not exactly the hit and run small gang affair it was intended to be t2 siege bs's bombs 20 mil a pop dropped from a paper ship bombs are too pricey they need to be cheaper and fired from within a cloak at range of 50-60k with the only hint being a partial decloak for 10sec+/- that allows you to spot but not lock so some one can chase him down and fully decloak him within a year you will see more capital blobbing than anything in 0.0 pretty soon you bs fleets will be jumping into multi ms/carrier fleets protected by cyno preventer thingies . they will just sit on a gate with large bubles and R4p3 the bs while they lag out trying to load a grid of 50 carriers and 500 drones plus support the only real solution is not pocket dreads but rather t2 siege bs's btw when i refer to siege i dont mean siege mode per se but a toned down version you decide the particulars
phillie blunt Live And Let Die	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:41:00 - [23] Originally by: BluOrange Edited by: BluOrange on 24/07/2007 02:48:31 A pocket dread would be an interesting tactical option. But it won't fix blobbing. Blobbing is a strategic problem, tactical variations cannot (and therefore will not) fix blobbing. To fix blobbing, you have to provide a strategic incentive for people to disperse their forces, rather than concentrating them. hmm you know a lot about blobbing
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:42:00 - [24] Originally by: prathe every attemp to curtail blobbing just makes bigger blobs starbase structure that can be attacked are so hp heavy that you need a fleet of bs's to take them down in a reasonable amount of time and you will need to have haulers bring you a reload of ammo while you sit there and plug away not exactly the hit and run small gang affair it was intended to be bombs 20 mil a pop dropped from a paper ship within a year you will see more capital blobbing than anything in 0.0 pretty soon you bs fleets will be jumping into multi ms/carrier fleets protected by cyno preventer thingies welcome to static warfare The entire concept of Dreads and POSes doesn't apply to my idea. FCS are mobile, easily repositioned, and allows an FC to divide his forces and put them where he needs them to divide his enemies firepower and exploit the opposing fleet's weaknesses. Originally by: Goumindong it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
Trixie Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Trixie Mayhem on 24/07/2007 05:46:15 Originally by: murder one Originally by: prathe every attemp to curtail blobbing just makes bigger blobs starbase structure that can be attacked are so hp heavy that you need a fleet of bs's to take them down in a reasonable amount of time and you will need to have haulers bring you a reload of ammo while you sit there and plug away not exactly the hit and run small gang affair it was intended to be bombs 20 mil a pop dropped from a paper ship within a year you will see more capital blobbing than anything in 0.0 pretty soon you bs fleets will be jumping into multi ms/carrier fleets protected by cyno preventer thingies welcome to static warfare The entire concept of Dreads and POSes doesn't apply to my idea. FCS are mobile, easily repositioned, and allows an FC to divide his forces and put them where he needs them to divide his enemies firepower and exploit the opposing fleet's weaknesses. when i refer top starbase structures i meant stations not pos's sorry prathe here damn alt doh
BluOrange Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.07.24 05:51:00 - [26] Originally by: phillie blunt Originally by: BluOrange Edited by: BluOrange on 24/07/2007 02:48:31 A pocket dread would be an interesting tactical option. But it won't fix blobbing. Blobbing is a strategic problem, tactical variations cannot (and therefore will not) fix blobbing. To fix blobbing, you have to provide a strategic incentive for people to disperse their forces, rather than concentrating them. hmm you know a lot about blobbing Blobbing and lag are strategic and tactical problems. As an Agony officer, I do my best to understand strategic and tactical problems. As a player, I hate lag, and I'd love to see the true blob problem (lag) getting fixed, instead of having people get distracted by the fake problems of weapon balance, ship balance, area of effect weapons, focussed-fire nerfage and other creative approaches that might well make for a better game, but won't fix the blob problem. Recruitment FAQ

Ivan Kirilenkov Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.07.24 06:21:00 - [27] Removed a lot of off-topic posts. Please keep discussions about the recent server issues (desyncs or other) in their appropriate threads. Keep the discussion in this thread about the issue at hand please. forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.24 06:27:00 - [28] I like the idea of a ship between BS and Dreads that specialize in killing BS so long as they -are slow -are hilariously inept at killing anything smaller than a BS -are no more useful than a BS against a capital ship Originally by: murder one This has now moved ship combat to a defensive posture, favoring the defender by giving him increased time to call in friends, make the attacker endure gate gun fire for a much longer time and removing the effectiveness of DPS ship setups to the point that it now takes a minmum of two and usually three comparably sized ships (compared to the target) to ensure a quick and decisive kill. I have an issue with what seems to be your underlying gripe here, however. I should be able to set up my ship so that any one who wants to kill me "quickly and decisively" needs to bring friends. Perhaps that is too easily achieved now (not fitting intensive enough), but I don't see a problem with being able to avoid a solo instagank by a similarly sized ship. Also, falloff rigs are great for minmatar. They are weapon rigs and allow for a broader range of combat strategies (both offensive and defensive) on AC ships. Other than that, and ewar/electronics rigs and grid/cap rigs, most useful rigs are defensive. (some cap rigs are defensive, some are offensive, depending on the ship and setup. cough Abaddon cough) NBALT Recruitment
Danlex	Posted - 2007.07.24 06:37:00 - [29] Originally by: BluOrange Edited by: BluOrange on 24/07/2007 02:48:31 A pocket dread would be an interesting tactical option. But it won't fix blobbing. Blobbing is a strategic problem, tactical variations cannot (and therefore will not) fix blobbing. To fix blobbing, you have to provide a strategic incentive for people to disperse their forces, rather than concentrating them. /signed OP, it's a nice idea. It doesn't fix the fundamental reason for blobbing. You bring 20, I bring 30, therefor I win. Essentially what you're doing is attempting to use price as a prohibitive reason to bring a heap of these to a fight.
Strategos Banned Society	Posted - 2007.07.24 06:39:00 - [30] Edited by: Strategos on 24/07/2007 06:41:50 Why don't you try flying a Vaga or a Mach or even a Sabre and then say Solo PvP is dead. The Vaga and the Mach are beyond overpowered 1v1 unless the ship you're going against is specifically set up to take you out which you will rarely find hunting unsuspecting ratters. And even then setting up for a 1v1 vs a nano mach is laughable. Btw I think your ideas are absurd. Solopwnmobiles = ftl. ---Sig--- Sig removed, not appropriate for the forum. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit

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