| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
gpYUAN29
   |
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:07:00 -
[61]
Man you come up with some awful ideas, murder one. This isn't one of your worst but it's right up there. What's to stop people blobbing with mini-Dreads? Have you considered the balancing aspect? Have you considered what ships these aberrant mental peregrinations of yours will displace? Have you considered the effect a ship like this would have on gatecamps, contrary to CCP's desire to get more folks out into low/nosec? I think not.I'm waiting for you to post a thread on how the Megathron should have its armor increased by 500% just to compensate for your atrocious skill.
Stop posting. Seriously, just stop posting. I beg of you.
gpY out.
|
Lastdon
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:17:00 -
[62]
Amazingly enough, that's exactly how combat will work if Fleet Combat Ships are introduced. See, there's this crazy module called a Sensor Dampner. It's been around, well, ever since I've been playing the game. It has this crazy ability to, well, remove a ship's ability to uh, target other ships and uh, use it's guns and stuff. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
And what is even more crazy is that it can be used by small ships. Totally far out. And like, if a FCS's weapons and targeting were disabled, then other larger ships could attack it and then kill it, with the smaller ships disabling it. Like, I never would have thought of any of this if it wern't for you. Sooo far out crazy whacky. 
My point was you shouldn't be able to completely disable a large ship by any means of preventing a ship from locking a target no matter what you call it jamming/dampening/ ex..in a small ship. Small ships should only be able to limit a larger ships capabilities by lets say taking out 1 of the 3 guns a ship has and that shouldn't be instant either. It would take time/damage but not as much damage as taking down the over all ship. Last I recall is the OP's point was how to make smaller ships more vital in combat. O ya and last I recall MS/ titan's are immuned to EW.
|
cal nereus
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:20:00 -
[63]
As someone already mentioned, blobbing is human nature. Even when you stack things against the blob, the advantage of superior numbers remains. We feel more confident when there are more of us, and we fight against a large enemy more readily when we have the promise of backup. One counter-blob is the idea of dividing the huge blob into a huge number of smaller entities, and these small gangs would wander into different areas doing different things, while still coordinating. Problem here is, they usually end up in the same place eventually anyways, and the blob is back. Either that or they run away. One or the other.
|
Copine Callmeknau
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:44:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Strategos
Edited by: Strategos on 24/07/2007 06:41:50
Why don't you try flying a Vaga or a Mach or even a Sabre and then say Solo PvP is dead. The Vaga and the Mach are beyond overpowered 1v1 unless the ship you're going against is specifically set up to take you out which you will rarely find hunting unsuspecting ratters. And even then setting up for a 1v1 vs a nano mach is laughable.
Btw I think your ideas are absurd. Solopwnmobiles = ftl.
So people should only be able to solo if they have vast amounts of ISK?
They should pay 30mil for a sabre to kill frigates and t1 cruisers, hundreds of millions for a vaga and fittings to kill BC's and cruisers?
And billions in faction BS and fittings to kill other BS?
Thank god you aren't a dev.
-----
Originally by: Patch86
Depressing as hell though. By the end, you feel like someone's eaten your kitten.
|
Solbright altaltalt
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:47:00 -
[65]
Blobs are good
|
pipvac
Sacred Templars
DeStInY.
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:52:00 -
[66]
I love the idea of this 'pocket dread', but only from the perspective of a new toy to play with. You've gone to alot of effort on the detail of the ships, and in isolation they look great. Nice one.
However, I fail to see how this ship is going to stop blobbing though. Perhaps you could explain it loud and slow, exactly how this is going to help with current gameplay issues, as so far there is nothing in the thread to justify it in this regard.
Lets look at an extract and analysis of Clauswitz in the context of battle strategy...
"The best strategy," writes Clausewitz, "is always to be very strong; first in general, and then at the decisive point." (204) Like other succinct principles, however, Clausewitz carefully qualifies this one, for "to reduce the whole secret of the art of war to the formula of numerical superiority at a certain time in a certain place [is] an oversimplification that [will not stand up] for a moment against the realities of life." (135) Indeed:
...superiority of numbers in a given engagement is only one of the factors that determines victory. Superior numbers, far from contributing everything, or even a substantial part, to victory, may actually be contributing very little, depending on the circumstances. (194) "But superiority varies in degrees." (194) Thus, "a significant superiority in numbers...will suffice to assure victory, however adverse the other circumstances." (195) In sum, quantitative superiority "must be regarded as fundamental--to be achieved in every case and to the fullest possible extent... But it would be seriously misunderstanding our argument, to consider numerical superiority as indispensable to victory..." (197)
Eve seems to have a considerable number of tactical options already, so its either the lack of imagination on the part of the fleet commanders, or safety in numbers attitude that results in blob warefare. Afterall, if the lag is so bad that half the fleet can't target primary, whats the point. Regrettably your pocket dreads aren't going to change this, nor will they have any real impact on small number pvp other than to add another class of ship to counter (which is always a good thing [;)]
|
Jane Vladmir
Gallente
Dreamscape
Sparta Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 09:53:00 -
[67]
You've got the problem out thought but your solution is faulty.
This would just add diversity to the super effective blob.
What you need to invent is a way for 10 ships to easily take on 30 ships, given that the 10 ship group hugely out-skills, out-SP's and out-isks the 30 ship groups.
As it is now, a group of 10 faction ships w/ officer modules vs a group of 30 t1 ships will most likely lose in the isk-vs-isk fight.
They might win the fight, even though unlikely, but they're bound to lose more isk by participating in the fight.
That's why more pilots = more power.
|
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:01:00 -
[68]
The two main reasons why people blob:
1) EVE is unrealistic in the way that the blob has none of the weaknesses that would apply in real life situations:
* The blob is as fast as a single ship and it is not slowed down by its numbers.
* There is no terrain where the blob can not move or is slowed down.
* Friendly fire is practically impossible.
Both of this means that travel times inside a solar system don't differ much between battleship blobs and interceptor gangs - we are talking about seconds here.
2) Bring the larger blob and lag will be on your side.
This removes the incentive to bring a smaller gang of fast ships for a classic hit and run attack on the blob.
Apart from introducing ridiculous new rules like stacknerfing focused fire or WoW-like restrictions on ship numbers in an engagement, I see no feasible way to reduce blobbing.
Introducing new ships or moduless will not fix anything and ships that can withstand focused fire from a battleship for minutes are already in the game, they are called capital ships.
|
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:05:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Ogul on 24/07/2007 10:14:48
Seems like a python strangled the forums...
|
shags
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:09:00 -
[70]
so what happens when everyone has one of these things and then instead of BS sniper fleets we have these pocket dread sniper fleets. poping anything from 250km. all it would do is further increase the gap between 2 fleets in a battle.
blobing and focus fire will never go away because its the only logical way to fight in a game like this. place overwhelming firepower on a single target until its destroyed and then move on to the next target. Engage the target at a range farther then they can engage you from.
you want to get rid of sniper fleets? here's the solution. introduce a new deployable item. Force field generators. just like a warp disruptor bubble give it a radius of 30-40 km for a large one. make it so that if your outside the bubble you can not target people inside the bubble and if your inside the bubble you can only target people also inside the bubble. also make it so you can only target the generator to destroy it while inside the bubble. Now you force people to run mixed short and long range fleets. defenders set the forcefield up and sit thier fleet inside it. attackers then would have to send short range fighters into the bubble to either destroy the bubble, destroy the defenders, or force them outside the bubble where they become targets for the snipers.
Of course none of this fixes the real problem which is that the hardware and client are not able to support the current scale of such battles. your still just going to lag out and die.
|
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
Riggers Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:23:00 -
[71]
Only way to really kill the blob, is to introduce line of fire. If you shoot at an enemy and a friendly ship is in the line of fire, you hit the friendly ship instead. That way, you can't just target and shoot, you have to move around a bit and can at the same time shield your friends.
Introducing a new ship, will not remove blobs. If you removed battleships from the game, the blobs would just be made of cruisers instead. Still a blob.
|
Solbright altaltalt
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:31:00 -
[72]
Originally by: shags
you want to get rid of sniper fleets? here's the solution. introduce a new deployable item. Force field generators. just like a warp disruptor bubble give it a radius of 30-40 km for a large one. make it so that if your outside the bubble you can not target people inside the bubble and if your inside the bubble you can only target people also inside the bubble. also make it so you can only target the generator to destroy it while inside the bubble. Now you force people to run mixed short and long range fleets.
That actually increases blobbing. With this in place you effectively end up with multiple separate fleets in the same grid sector - creating even large stutters and even more lag.
That said, Blobs are good
Remember that a blob is all ships in the one grid sector. It don't matter where they are spaced in that sector.
|
Radamathadus
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:32:00 -
[73]
In regards to solo and small gang pvp the blobbing effect was massively impacted upon by warp to zero largely in conjunction with the hp boost. Solo players attacking solo targets would find themselves being blobbed as back up is called in fom upto 6-7 systems away and arrived in time to win the fight.
Removing warp to zero would be unwanted by much of the player base and the community have adapted well so its removal is pretty much a none starter. The hp boost does prolong fights and as such acheived its goal.
My suggestion for improving the solo / small gang experience would also be highly unpopular but somewhat effective. I think that decreasing warp speed by upto a factor of 10 (a starting suggestion rather than a definive figure) across the board would bring several benifits.
Firstly bringing in friends to a fight from more than a few jumps away would be far less effective. So solo and small gangs could function again.
A return to the eve post closure of the superhighways would occur. Hubs other than Jita would spring up as travelling 12 - 18 would become a real chore. Regional markets would become stronger again.
Carriers would become logistics king and jump clones a nessesity and start to forfill the roles they were designed to play.
The downside is of course the time sink factor in as much as travel in eve is boring as hell anyway. The high sec community would be challenged most to adapt but could benifit from gaining more trade hubs and thus more profit. After all we survived lossing Yulai and the superhighways.
|
shags
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:43:00 -
[74]
Edited by: shags on 24/07/2007 10:43:34
Originally by: Solbright altaltalt
Originally by: shags
you want to get rid of sniper fleets? here's the solution. introduce a new deployable item. Force field generators. just like a warp disruptor bubble give it a radius of 30-40 km for a large one. make it so that if your outside the bubble you can not target people inside the bubble and if your inside the bubble you can only target people also inside the bubble. also make it so you can only target the generator to destroy it while inside the bubble. Now you force people to run mixed short and long range fleets.
That actually increases blobbing. With this in place you effectively end up with multiple separate fleets in the same grid sector - creating even large stutters and even more lag.
That said, Blobs are good
Remember that a blob is all ships in the one grid sector. It don't matter where they are spaced in that sector.
well your right, none of these posts matter because the only real problem is the lag. get rid of that and you fix a lot of problems.
I agree blobs are fun. What i was addressing was more the sniper fleet. sniping is boring and sniper fleet vs sniper fleet is even more boring. the force field bubble would at least change things up a bit.
But untill you can actualy have 300 people on the same grid with out lag nothing is going to fix fleet combat.
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:45:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 24/07/2007 10:45:53
It's a nice idea but where it fails is giving them a short range option. As such you create a BS Mark II where you still have the option to blob up and move and attack as one group. Imo that doesn't solve anything.
Now if you would make those ships long range ONLY (No short range weapon system, and since you only have 4 slots it's not worth it using BS class weapons) all of a sudden you would create a tactical opportunity/problem which needs to be used and/or solved. If you make em slow, heavily tanked, hard hitting snipers you essentially make them into the actual battlships as used by the marine of old; huge gunships, slow, cumbersome but deadly at range while requiring support and defense against closerange attacks.
You would force people to actually use tactics instead of blobbing, and with very low agility they would be useless as a normal fleet ship due to their slow aligning. So using them would be a tactical desicion instead of an obvious blobbing/dps option. similar to the dreads as we have them but indeed pocketsized, used against ships rather than POSes.
Forcing more tactics means less blobs.
Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back. |
Guilliman R
Gallente
PRO Space Hunters
Federation Of united Corps
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:53:00 -
[76]
Give torps AOE damage?
small torps have 2km aoe damage (100% on target 50% on the people/drones around him
meds 5km aoe, rest same
Heavies 7km
Siege/cruise 10km AOE range
torps are already limited due to flight time, so there's a negative side. Atleast this would force people to spread out a lot. And with 100+ ships, people will have to go into 'squads' and attack from all sides (if they want to hit everyone at the same time atleast.
-Wachtmeister ([email protected]) <3
|
Strategos
Banned Society
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 10:56:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Originally by: Strategos
Edited by: Strategos on 24/07/2007 06:41:50
Why don't you try flying a Vaga or a Mach or even a Sabre and then say Solo PvP is dead. The Vaga and the Mach are beyond overpowered 1v1 unless the ship you're going against is specifically set up to take you out which you will rarely find hunting unsuspecting ratters. And even then setting up for a 1v1 vs a nano mach is laughable.
Btw I think your ideas are absurd. Solopwnmobiles = ftl.
So people should only be able to solo if they have vast amounts of ISK?
They should pay 30mil for a sabre to kill frigates and t1 cruisers, hundreds of millions for a vaga and fittings to kill BC's and cruisers?
And billions in faction BS and fittings to kill other BS?
Thank god you aren't a dev.
That went right over your head.
---Sig---
Sig removed, not appropriate for the forum. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -Pirlouit
|
PussPuss
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:26:00 -
[78]
New ship types, while cool are not the way forwards to defeat blobs... Blobs work simply because an entire fleet can target one ship at the same time. While calling primaries is a good method for winning and you end up with a war of attrition between two fleets it destroys many strategic options.
To break down blobs you have to break down the benefits of blobbing. Stacking penalties on multiple ships targetting a single ship, pockets of space (like deadspace) where spatial distortions and electromagnetic interference prevent anything more than one ship being able to target one ship and that ship being able to target back.
Nerfing individual pilot and ship attributes does not affect blobbing, you have to nerf group offensive attributes. It would make combat so much more enjoyable, long lasting and strategic.
|
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:28:00 -
[79]
lets make eve turn based ! :=)
|
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:29:00 -
[80]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Strategos
Whatever dude. I'm not going to go into a war of words with you. What you're trying to design will not work and those who actually fly in fleets will see this. Just wait till t2 BS's are released. In MY opinion it's a shotty idea, but to each his own.
I fly/FC fleets all the time. T2 BS won't change anything. They're not going to add anything that is going to make a difference fleet wise. It's like Command Ships currently. They still get vaporized in one volley, regardless of resists.
CCP has screwed up solo PVP in deference to fleet warfare. If ships like the proposed were introduced, BS could be re-balanced back to where they were and we could once again have some reasonable solo and small gang action.
Considering how much of an advocate of solo-pvp you are, i find it laughable that you say "I fly/FC fleets all the time."
Seriously dude, your posts have started to be a joke ever since you started to whine about boosting the gallente bs's.
This is a joke in the same way but you will not listen to others, you post immediately after someone else attacking the words used, but not the ideea.
PS: I'd rather see CCP fix EVE now then to add more content. Because if this BS continues, many will leave.
Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ. |
cal nereus
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:32:00 -
[81]
Hmmm, this is an interesting thought:
What if the maximum number of ships that can lock onto a given target works in much the same way that a ship can only lock onto a given number of targets? For example, if one guy can only lock onto seven targets at once, perhaps one guy can only be locked by seven (or some other number)?
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr
UK Corp
FATAL Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:36:00 -
[82]
Originally by: cal nereus
Hmmm, this is an interesting thought:
What if the maximum number of ships that can lock onto a given target works in much the same way that a ship can only lock onto a given number of targets? For example, if one guy can only lock onto seven targets at once, perhaps one guy can only be locked by seven (or some other number)?
Then everyone in the friendly fleet would target eachother to fill up the targeting slots
Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back. |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:44:00 -
[83]
While I agree with the notion of introducing a ship class similar to what is suggested, the reasoning is fairly stupid. The only 'solo pvp' that really suffered from Hp boosts and damage nerfs (which were only 6.66%, not 20% btw, BS high damage ammo went from 60 damage to 56) is ganking a hapless victim or someone else not interested in a fight. And I find nothing wrong with that, other people are NOT just content fo you.
Engaging a target your size that is also interested in a solo fight would still give you the fight you would have gotten before, it would just take longer. But of course these people NEVER EVER engage those also interested in 'solo PvP'. I wonder why...
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Daimos Bellurdan
Black Reign
FATAL Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 11:54:00 -
[84]
There is only one way to stop blobbing:
Change the game design so that players do not have to blob to win or even more extreme: Blobbers lose more ships than non blobbers.
How: Smaller gangs have to be able to win against larger gangs. Bombs arent enough. We need more Aoe weapons or weapons that work well against fleets but not against a small number of ships.
A 4s invulerabilty mod with 2 min cooldown would help as well against focus firing.
It should be like this:
small gang with anti blob weapons > blob > small gang with standard fitting > small gang with anti blob weapons
More players in gang should not always mean a win. Better setups and better teamplay should give you the best chance for winning except when there is an extreme difference in ship numbers.
|
Steyr Daghan
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 12:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: me bored
I have a more simple and effective solution. Roll back the hp buffs, the stacking nerf and warp to 0. They were huge cock ups on ccp's part and it's about time they admitted their mistakes and did something about it.
Oh please, that's bs and not a solution to anything that's being discussed.
The only reason anyone resists the wtz is that they wanna sit at gates and pop noobs without having to work for it. The odds are still on the side of the ganker and wtz only had the effect of demanding some kind of effort on part of the so called pirates.
You just want your i-win button back. How would that solve blobs, lag or for that matter make 1vs1 better?
|
Steyr Daghan
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 12:24:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Gaia Thorn
<snip> Tbh the only way to remove blob warfare is to remove local in 0.0 plain and simple.
Cause all the "strategy" to is what number do the enemy have and how many can we muster to take that force out.
<snip>
This sounds corny but you are right. This is brilliant. It would also create an actual need to do some serious combat recon.
Probe scanners and other things would also, for the first time, find better use than as prey-finders for noob-gankers.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 12:35:00 -
[87]
Remove local, and then side A that has 10 ships don know that B has 15. So A won wait 20 minutes more to get to 15 ships, neither would B then ask for more ships to 20 etc. etc. etc..
Would make fights start much sooner and with much smaller numbers. Without local we reintroduce the concept of stealth. Any military annalist will tell you there are only 3 ways of achieving supremacy,
superior force (blob), unreachability (speed usually, but peopel proved to not liek it in here) and stealth (cannot be achieved with LOCAl).
You cannot escape form that, if EVE do not allow unreachability niether stealth, blob will remain as the only option.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Sandra Jones
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 12:47:00 -
[88]
somehow i got the feeling that introducing your new shiptype just creates the need for larger blobs with even more firepower...
|
murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 21:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 24/07/2007 10:45:53
It's a nice idea but where it fails is giving them a short range option. As such you create a BS Mark II where you still have the option to blob up and move and attack as one group. Imo that doesn't solve anything.
Now if you would make those ships long range ONLY (No short range weapon system, and since you only have 4 slots it's not worth it using BS class weapons) all of a sudden you would create a tactical opportunity/problem which needs to be used and/or solved. If you make em slow, heavily tanked, hard hitting snipers you essentially make them into the actual battlships as used by the marine of old; huge gunships, slow, cumbersome but deadly at range while requiring support and defense against closerange attacks.
You would force people to actually use tactics instead of blobbing, and with very low agility they would be useless as a normal fleet ship due to their slow aligning. So using them would be a tactical desicion instead of an obvious blobbing/dps option. similar to the dreads as we have them but indeed pocketsized, used against ships rather than POSes.
Forcing more tactics means less blobs.
You're completely right. If these ships simply had one weapon type (long range fleet guns), they'd be relatively useless up close (the Caldari and Gallente ships would be more useful than the Minmatar and Amarr for ultra short range, but generally speaking, they'll be even).
You wouldn't see them in gate camps too much if they only had long range weapons, and since they'd be slow to align/warp, it would be very clumsy to use them in any sort of combat outside of fleet engagements without support.
I agree that short range weapons should be omitted.
Originally by: Goumindong
it is at the point where it is impossible to determine whether or not you are trolling or if you area really out of your freaking mind.
|
Terradoct
Gallente
shock-WAVE corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2007.07.24 21:58:00 -
[90]
All that need's in removing blobing is reduecing all guns and missile range by vast margins. Like make that short range is not futher than 2km, long range is 10km, and extrime is 15km. Long range guns\missiles requer that there target must be marked by target painter. In order to use extrim range guns you must stop you ship. Adjust all modulse range accordenly.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |