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Suicide ganking does not need a solution

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Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:19:00 - [31] lol flamebait
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:53:00 - [32] I'm not sure what can be done when people are stupid enough to fly around with several billions worth of modules in an Iteron 5. I mean, why use an interceptor when you can use one of the slowest ships in game? We're sorry, something happened.
Jonny JoJo	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Draygo Korvan all you need is a scout to tell you if there is a gank waiting for you on the other side. If there is, dont jump through go somewhere else, or wait for the gankers to hit someone else or get bored and leave. Its really not hard. If I was in charge of a suicide gank squad taking on, say, freightors, I would position a pilt of arbitrators/vexors/domi's 200,000km from the gate off grid and align at full speed. Let the freightor's scout report nothing and instawarp in as soon as the freightor is seen by a alt on the other side as jumping though.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:06:00 - [34] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/07/2007 09:07:55 Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/07/2007 09:06:42 Quote: Nonetheless; if you are moving 1+BILLION ISK [b]BE -Galan Ok : 1 billion isk is 1333 isk / m3 (assuming the freighter is nearly full, 750 000 m3). The "construction" value of most ships and t1 modules (aka minerals) are between 500 and 2500 isk / m3. Thank you for proving, once again, that the risk / reward of freighter is out of balance. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:16:00 - [35] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 30/07/2007 11:17:21 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Ok : 1 billion isk is 1333 isk / m3 (assuming the freighter is nearly full, 750 000 m3). The "construction" value of most ships and t1 modules (aka minerals) are between 500 and 2500 isk / m3. Thank you for proving, once again, that the risk / reward of freighter is out of balance. Not really. It takes 20-30 people to gank a freighter, maybe more. If the freighter is carrying 1 billion in cargo and let's say half of that survives. That leaves 25 mill pr person (20 people). With the time it takes to get a gang of that size together, set everything up and waiting for a target, it's just not worth the trouble. Of course you can do this 2 or 3 times an hour (15-20 minutes to dock and wait out the aggresion timer), once you are setup, if there's enough targets. So 75 mill/hour if all goes well and doesn't even take into account the 15 mill it costs to insure a new ship for each gank. What's really unbalanced is, I make much more than that, with much less effort, just hauling stuff around in my T1 hauler (Training for T2 haulers, though) and I don't get ganked, because highsec gankers are lazy, too. They don't want to spend the effort to go after a hauler that WTZ and near insta-warps on the exit gate, (Thank you Low Friction Nozzle Joints) when there's no lack afk-autopiloting haulers. Unless someone's specifically out to get me, I don't ever expect to get ganked, using this simple precaution. And I'm flying in and out of Jita/Nonni/Oursulaert several times a week, sometimes several times a day. Granted, with freighters it is a bit more diffult, but the potential income, using a freighter, is also a lot bigger. And using the numbers above, I doubt that you're in much danger of getting highsec ganked with 1 billion in cargo. Maybe 5 billion gets you in the danger zone, is my guess. Finally here's a quote from the Eve Knowledgebase: Originally by: Attacked in secure space? Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. That's just how I see it, Vala D. Edit: Grammar --------
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Vala Draaken Finally here's a quote from the Eve Knowledgebase: Originally by: Attacked in secure space? Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. That's just how I see it, Vala D. Thats wonderfull, and to me that makes perfect sense. That is, if it was'nt for the sentense: "Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord" If I was flying in a standard Reaper with 2, 3 or 5 other teammates, on a trial account, or simply just on an alt from my account - it doesnt really matter as long as the loot goes to your main of some kind, who does.nt take any risk or beating at all - I would'nt bother loosing my ship and good standing with Concorede. Not at all. Really! I would'nt ...
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Vala Draaken Starting such an operation is much less difficult that you make it sound... it requires a few mails, a date, and a place. And the fact that trading gives the biggest pay-out of all occupations in Eve is another problem entirely. Trading should also be fixed, but since players give most prices... you can't fix players. Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. Assuming 1 gank / hour, you do make as much profit from ganking with a freighter with about 2.5 billion in cargo. The math is easy to do. You take : - the expected isk / hour (let's say 30 million), - the cost of ship lost (varies wildly, between a net profit of 10 million per ship and 50 million lost per ship), let's say 20, - both of those are multiplied by the number of persons doing the gank (also varies wildly between 10 and 50), let's say 20, - the percentage of loot lost (assuming 50%), - I add a modifier to take into account the percentage of the cargo really recovered (other people go and take the loot too) and successful attempt rate (sometime it does fail or so it seems). That makes : (30+20) * 20 * 2 * 1.25 = 2.5 billion. Note that the numbers take into consideration that you make as much profit as missioning in high sec, more or less. If the goal is to break even while having fun, all freighter transporting 1 billion are fair game. None of the defense mechanism above really work... they are all foiled by using a few more ships to gank (which is already done), or prevent the trader from trading (using a scout is fine, because you don't lose your ship.... but you effectively stop trading when your scout finds something, and there is no way to pass the gate without using an alt to call on concord for the few next gates and hope the gankers don't pursue). Now, the only question I want an answer on, is : "what does 2.5 billion in a freighter represent, and is transporting that much for a freighter intended or not ? If yes, nothing is to be changed. If not, the solution is easy. Add or remove more HP to the freighter, to account for the real amount that is supposed to be transported. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Hugh Hefner Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:38:00 - [38] Have any of you piloted a Freighter 20+ jumps with a scout-alt?? To pilot it non-afk is torture enough that, now you suggest scout lol Do any of you actually pilot freighters or are you all cowardly damn loophole-worshippers protecting your asshat-trade? AFK-hauling in high-sec with freighters(in my opinion this should be true for any ship-type) should hold no risk of gank at all(unless its from a wartarget) unless it costs the attacker more than the victim, thats my opinion, exploiting bugs in game-mechanics should be looked down upon not be accepted.
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. My 5 billion guess, was based on what'd it'd take, to make it worthwhile to me. I wouldn't go into highsec ganking unless I thought it was a lot more profitable than missions or what I do now. I certainly wouldn't do it for 30 mill/hour. Make it 150 mill/hour and I'd start getting interested. 300 mill/hour and I'm definetly in. Vala D. --------
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Vala Draaken Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. My 5 billion guess, was based on what'd it'd take, to make it worthwhile to me. I wouldn't go into highsec ganking unless I thought it was a lot more profitable than missions or what I do now. I certainly wouldn't do it for 30 mill/hour. Make it 150 mill/hour and I'd start getting interested. 300 mill/hour and I'm definetly in. Vala D. There would not be any freighters left alive in empire right now if it yielded that much benefits... Obviously, you are not in the norm in empire. Ah, and note that it's 30 million / char... dunno, sometimes people say they make 75 - 100 million per hour, but upon closer look, you discover they have 3 or 4 account, leading to a lower income that stated. By trading however, you can make that much money alone... and given your post, you probably do. However, you have a point. People will start to change the way they play only if they make more benefits that way. Well some may do that kind of stuff for fun... but gathering 20 people just for fun is pretty uncommon. That is the main reason why I use the 30 million isk / per person to compare income and not 75 millions. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:31:00 - [41] Most simple solution would be to make cargo-scanning a hostile action. Suicide gankers can still kill a freighter but they don't know in advance wether it will be pro*****ble or not and thus it will be risky for them to do.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Webster Belken wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". Suicide ganking is NOT considered an exploit. - Carebear Pirate -
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Webster Belken wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". Suicide ganking is NOT considered an exploit. what he said.. its been in the game for years - its not an exploit.
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:44:00 - [44] /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know?
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Sorted Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that. ^^ What he said And we are not related in any way :) - Carebear Pirate -
Dreysine Endgame.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Sorted Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that. ^^ What he said And we are not related in any way :) i think most suicide gankers would be ok with that, since most dont make a move anyway unless they stand to make a few hundred mil at least. the problem would be noobs who get accidentally concorded. that would really hurt them, while the suicide gankers would really be effected. -------------------- Are you looking at my bum??
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:31:00 - [48] Two things. Eliminating the insurance on concorded ships would hurt noobs not suicide gankers. The gankers will profit either way. A young noob who makes a mistake could be set back weeks which is a little harsh when you are that new. Also Concord and SEC are not the same company. Why would SEC do what concord says? Seccond. Risk vs Reward. I am sick to death of this drivel. The Reward of suicide ganking is established by the players flying haulers, not the gankers. The gankers can not controll what they will get, they could very well get nothing. This is why it is up to the Players of the haulers to provide the risk as well as the reward. Now this is not a "shoot back" suggestion. That is just going to increase your loss. The way to win is to eliminate the reward. Thus bring the risk of a fruitless hunt to bear. When 20 people get togeather to gank haulers and spend their whole night looking for one only to get nothing, they will stop ganking haulers. It's not worth their time. Players caused the situation, players need to solve it. If you want to know what the devs think ask yourself why were freighters modified to drop their loot after they pop? The only rational reason is that the devs want to see freighters go pop. It is up to the freigher pilots to keep that from happening. -Galan
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Galan Amarias Seccond. Risk vs Reward. I am sick to death of this drivel. The Reward of suicide ganking is established by the players flying haulers, not the gankers. The gankers can not controll what they will get, they could very well get nothing. This is why it is up to the Players of the haulers to provide the risk as well as the reward. -Galan The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok. Wrong. The "Risk" they face is not losing money on the kill. It's losing money by wasting their time. That risk is generated by freighter pilots being really careful with their ships. Right now the number of lazy pilots with high value cargos has drawn predators. If you want them to go away you need to get the prey to be wary. Do you see Both Risk and Reward are determined by the pilots of the freigters. The gankers are powerless against them if they recognize that and take steps to act on it. Alternate routes, scouts, friendly back up (for repair webs and ramming). All these things lower the ISK it's possible to make by suicide ganking. There are no effective countermeasures for the gankers, they need you to be fat stupid and lazy. -Galan
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:10:00 - [51] Suicide ganking wouldn't be so prolofic if some of the lazier folks took some obvious and easy measures to extend there life expectancy. It's all been said before what you can do to avoid the gank but they still don't learn, fly t1 haulers afk filled with fat lootz and then whine when they die. GOONIES = OMNIPOTENCE INCARNATE
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:58:00 - [52] Urge.. to post.. rising.. its a good isk sink, keeps the economy flowing ya know? Once its in the station, its safe forever.. gotta be some risk somewhere along the way. i think its great tbh.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok. Wrong. The "Risk" they face is not losing money on the kill. It's losing money by wasting their time. That risk is generated by freighter pilots being really careful with their ships. Right now the number of lazy pilots with high value cargos has drawn predators. If you want them to go away you need to get the prey to be wary. That's not a risk. They don't loose anything to it, all they need is a single scout to scan for nice targets while the others can do missions/rat/trade etc. Once a nice target is found they gather and kill it. BTW being lazy and afk or not in a freighter doesn't really matter much because a freighter takes ages to align and a single pirate-scout can bump it a few times to give the rest enough time to warp-in. Quote: Do you see Both Risk and Reward are determined by the pilots of the freigters. The gankers are powerless against them if they recognize that and take steps to act on it. Alternate routes, scouts, friendly back up (for repair webs and ramming). All these things lower the ISK it's possible to make by suicide ganking. There are no effective countermeasures for the gankers, they need you to be fat stupid and lazy. -Galan All your solution just don't work. Alternate routes -> you want to sell your stuff somewhere so you still have to go to that system and because it's most probably a trade hub gankerts know where they have to look. Scouts -> If the attackers also use a scout all you see is 1 ship at a gate, all others are in a station or somewhere else in the system. Friendly backup -> What can they do ? Do you know how much damage a gang of suicide domi's do and how many people you need to counteract it ? Only thing a freighter pilot can do atm to prevent his ship being ganked is to not have much expensive cargo in his ship (and that's exactly what a freighter is for) Just make cargoscanning a ship a hostile act. Nothing changes only the pirates don't know their profit in front.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... . That's not a risk. They don't loose anything to it, all they need is a single scout to scan for nice targets while the others can do missions/rat/trade etc. Once a nice target is found they gather and kill it. BTW being lazy and afk or not in a freighter doesn't really matter much because a freighter takes ages to align and a single pirate-scout can bump it a few times to give the rest enough time to warp-in. If you are dedicated and willing to use a scout and safe spots it will be _very_ difficult for them to catch you. It takes only 2 ships though they need to be in the same corp. Three works even faster. 1 is the freighter. the other one or two are thoraxes. You set a ss along your route at the midpoint of each system you are traveling through, that way the freighter is never waiting at a gate where it can be bumped. The ss is directly away from the gate so the freighter starts aligned and just need to get up to speed. The thoraxes have mwd and can bump the freighter away from hostiles though that shouldn't be necesary. Thorax jumps into system while freighter is alligned to gate in ss. No gank on scan? ok bring the freighter through, once it's in system web it and get it to the ss. Your gankers have to be concentrated to get you while you do this, so they can't be off missioning in their gank dominix's. Mind you the notion of them doing that is absurdly silly. They also have to be far enough away from the gate to be unscannable when you bring the scout through. Since the freighter never sits at a gate it can't be rammed off one. If they want to try and scan you with probes, well they will need to be quick and if you see probes on scan, dock. Because you are wary they need to be very fast to catch you and that means they can't be docked. Quote: All your solution just don't work. Alternate routes -> you want to sell your stuff somewhere so you still have to go to that system and because it's most probably a trade hub gankerts know where they have to look. Scouts -> If the attackers also use a scout all you see is 1 ship at a gate, all others are in a station or somewhere else in the system. Friendly backup -> What can they do ? Do you know how much damage a gang of suicide domi's do and how many people you need to counteract it ? Only thing a freighter pilot can do atm to prevent his ship being ganked is to not have much expensive cargo in his ship (and that's exactly what a freighter is for) Just make cargoscanning a ship a hostile act. Nothing changes only the pirates don't know their profit in front. My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe. However if you adopt it or something like it you will be much much less likely to be the freighter that gets ganked. The gankers will find easier prey. Cargoscanning will never be a hostile act. Insurance will not be nixed for people with criminal flags. Read the link on my sig. The devs want inventive enough people to be able to profit from "kamakazi attacks" in empire. What the freigter pilots need is to do as much as possible to minimize the profit so there will not be swarms of gankers. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:22:00 - [55] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 02/08/2007 08:22:38 No, what is really needed is to know if transporting 1 billion isk of stuff in a freighter should get you blown up. Note : if you plan to build a dozen BS, and fill the freighter with uncompressed minerals, you already have more than 1 billion in cargo. It's also less than the value of a lot of t1 goods in a full freighter (I'm not talking about named stuff, but regular t1 goods like standard guns and the like...). The calculation is above. Suicide ganking is a stupid griefing mechanic, but it defines Eve. Therefore it should stay. However, there was a problem of balance before (drones), and is there another one now ? No one answered that... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Galan Amarias If you are dedicated and willing to use a scout and safe spots it will be _very_ difficult for them to catch you. It takes only 2 ships though they need to be in the same corp. Three works even faster. ... Your gankers have to be concentrated to get you while you do this, so they can't be off missioning in their gank dominix's. Mind you the notion of them doing that is absurdly silly. They also have to be far enough away from the gate to be unscannable when you bring the scout through. Since the freighter never sits at a gate it can't be rammed off one. If they want to try and scan you with probes, well they will need to be quick and if you see probes on scan, dock. Because you are wary they need to be very fast to catch you and that means they can't be docked. The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. Quote: My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe. However if you adopt it or something like it you will be much much less likely to be the freighter that gets ganked. The gankers will find easier prey. And so it isn't a solution, they still can find the easiest target and kill it without risk. If the freighter is filled with enough goods (which is exactly what a freighter is for) they attack, if not they don't do anything. Quote: What the freigter pilots need is to do as much as possible to minimize the profit so there will not be swarms of gankers. -Galan I totally agree (therefore i haven't been killed in empire sofar), but i just think it's wrong the gankers know exactly in front whether their attack will be profitable or not.
Lord Zoran Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:16:00 - [57] tbh i think you have to think of suiciders when taking stuff in high sec far too much, i mean at each gate for some reason i always think i'm gonna get sb'd when dropping out of warp --------------------------------------------- no sig for you !!!
Liilli Lee Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:51:00 - [58] "They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck." They also risk that a 3rd character comes along ;-) Cats are stupid - that is why they were given 9 lives. Dogs are smart - that is why they lick their "privates". (You would too - if you could)
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.03 05:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. that shp would have to be ready and waiting and a scout would see it there, would also be capable of bumping it right back away from the freighter. Who wins bump town? Well it'd probably go bad for the freighter but not necessarily and if you had the 2nd thorax to help it align again it's odds go up again and then the gankers have to get another rammer, and you can escalate infinately, except that every rammer can't be a ganker and eventually there are only so many people who will want a small slice of the loot. Quote: Originally by: Galan Amarias My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe.... And so it isn't a solution, they still can find the easiest target and kill it without risk. If the freighter is filled with enough goods (which is exactly what a freighter is for) they attack, if not they don't do anything. There won't be a "solution" in the sense you are speaking of. The devs want high sec "kamakazi" to be not only possible but profitable. Read my sig. What you want is to be soo annoying to hunt and kill that they seek easier prey. As prey gets smarter and less gankable some gankers will adapt and become more dangerous and others will find something else to do with their time. Quote: I totally agree (therefore i haven't been killed in empire sofar), but i just think it's wrong the gankers know exactly in front whether their attack will be profitable or not. The only way they can know is to get the scan in. Proper defense will limit that, including watching when they are active as well as where. I think the existance of the scanner is to make it possible for them to know. If they didn't know it'd be much to hard to pick targets since they have to lose their ships. That would make profitibily reduce drasticly and given the nature of the thread in my sig I really don't see that happening. Even if scanning was a "hostile" act. Are you asking for something like kill rights? that'd be useless to the freighter and may not transfer to the gang. If it was concord death to scan, It never will be but if, then they'd just stockpile cheep scanner ships in a ss and use that. You still don't gain much. Better to think defensivly than to try to shoot back. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. that shp would have to be ready and waiting and a scout would see it there, would also be capable of bumping it right back away from the freighter. Who wins bump town? Well it'd probably go bad for the freighter but not necessarily and if you had the 2nd thorax to help it align again it's odds go up again and then the gankers have to get another rammer, and you can escalate infinately, except that every rammer can't be a ganker and eventually there are only so many people who will want a small slice of the loot. At most gates you will find people, the freighter scout can never tell if it's a pirate or not. Furthermore the pirate scout only has to bump the freighter occasionaly to keep it out of alignment while the freighter scouts have a much harder job to do. They must keep the pirate away fom the freighter for some time to make sure it can align. A skilled pirate will not be stopped by 1 or 2 freighter escorts. Quote: There won't be a "solution" in the sense you are speaking of. The devs want high sec "kamakazi" to be not only possible but profitable. Read my sig. What you want is to be soo annoying to hunt and kill that they seek easier prey. As prey gets smarter and less gankable some gankers will adapt and become more dangerous and others will find something else to do with their time. I've read your siggie and i know that's the DEVs idea atm, i just don't agree with it Quote: The only way they can know is to get the scan in. Proper defense will limit that, including watching when they are active as well as where. I think the existance of the scanner is to make it possible for them to know. If they didn't know it'd be much to hard to pick targets since they have to lose their ships. That would make profitibily reduce drasticly and given the nature of the thread in my sig I really don't see that happening. My main problem with the empire killing atm is that the only thing you can do to prevent it is to move your valuables in a few runs so every single run is not profitable to kill. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods and is not meant to be used only for it's higher hitpoints. Atm you can use a freighter to transport stuff worth 700 mil or so, which often means it's only filled for a very small part. Quote: Even if scanning was a "hostile" act. Are you asking for something like kill rights? that'd be useless to the freighter and may not transfer to the gang. If it was concord death to scan, It never will be but if, then they'd just stockpile cheep scanner ships in a ss and use that. You still don't gain much. Better to think defensivly than to try to shoot back. -Galan Like i said, my main problem is that there is absolutely no defense against the killing except moving your stuff in multiple runs. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods, empire is meant to be pretty safe (not totally safe, but still pretty safe). The only reason i use a freighter atm is because of it's high hitpoints and not because it can transport a lot of goods.

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