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Suicide ganking does not need a solution

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Luigi Thirty Caldari 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.07.29 03:45:00 - [1] There is no problem ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:((((
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.29 03:48:00 - [2] Edited by: MotherMoon on 29/07/2007 03:50:52 other than it not being suicide? tell me one good reason why the word suicide belongs in that sentence? it's fine with me, it's something players do, but how is it suicide? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.29 03:48:00 - [3] Not true! The phrases "suicide gank" and "freighter gank" should be censored from the forums, then the problem will be fixed. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER!
Evelgrivion Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 03:49:00 - [4] Ah, but there is This isn't the signature you're looking for. Can you tell me where to find the one I am looking for? -Kaemonn
Webster Belken	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Luigi Thirty There is no problem whatever your smoking I'm sure it's not legal. wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all".
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:11:00 - [6] Suicide ganking is not a problem. Being unable to proactively prevent a suicide gank, short of "don't undock" or "don't haul" is a problem. Having a laughable deterrent to suicide ganking is a problem. The insurance mechanic, as it relates to intentionally destroying your ship, is a problem.
Aces Israel	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:34:00 - [7] I don't think there's a problem with suicide ganking. I think it should always be a part of the game. But I think the mechanics could be tweaked somewhat to make the high sec pirate thing more interesting for everybody. Such as the ability to gank and escape from Concorde. But, I also think that the "punishment" for getting caught should be more severe than losing a ship (and receiving an insurance payment) and a tiny bit of sec status. I think something that could make the game more fun for high sec pirates would perhaps be the introduction of NPC caravan's that, once attacked, trigger some sort of Concorde countdown instead of an immediate spawned response. I think there's quite a bit of stuff that can be added to the Empire experience to increase the level of conflict between players.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:36:00 - [8] Edited by: MotherMoon on 29/07/2007 04:37:19 Originally by: Aces Israel I don't think there's a problem with suicide ganking. I think it should always be a part of the game. But I think the mechanics could be tweaked somewhat to make the high sec pirate thing more interesting for everybody. Such as the ability to gank and escape from Concorde. But, I also think that the "punishment" for getting caught should be more severe than losing a ship (and receiving an insurance payment) and a tiny bit of sec status. I think something that could make the game more fun for high sec pirates would perhaps be the introduction of NPC caravan's that, once attacked, trigger some sort of Concorde countdown instead of an immediate spawned response. I think there's quite a bit of stuff that can be added to the Empire experience to increase the level of conflict between players. once again why is called suicide ganking if you don't lose much if anything? maybe call it killing your sec stat ganking, but suicide? it's not a problem for me, I don't mind people can do this all they want. but it needs to made more interesting for the pirates. I agree. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:37:00 - [9] Sure you can prevent it, all you need are a couple of alts or two other players and... no, no, wait, with that many people it starts becoming pretty poor isk/hr/person. Hauling, sit down, have you met lo-sec mining? He's captain of this little boat we're all in, over there you can see lo-sec mission running, and on the far bench are independence, single account, and the pirate factions. RP is below decks if he sticks his head up here feel free to spit at him.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Aces Israel I think there's quite a bit of stuff that can be added to the Empire experience to increase the level of conflict between players. Your forgetting the reason most of these players are in empire. Want more empire pew pew, wait for factional warfare, want more pew pew in general, get whining about how unprofitable lo-sec and why there are so few targets there.
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.29 04:49:00 - [11] Edited by: Kirex on 29/07/2007 04:49:26 Get an escort? A BC with armor/shield gang mods/bonuses, web for faster align, and smart bombs to fly up to the freighter and smart bomb the drones. Oh wait, you want to go AFK on autopilot to make easy money with no effort.
Aces Israel	Posted - 2007.07.29 05:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Aces Israel on 29/07/2007 05:03:10 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Aces Israel I think there's quite a bit of stuff that can be added to the Empire experience to increase the level of conflict between players. Your forgetting the reason most of these players are in empire. Want more empire pew pew, wait for factional warfare, want more pew pew in general, get whining about how unprofitable lo-sec and why there are so few targets there. Except low-sec is generally unprofitable for everybody. It's inefficient due to the amount of time you spend running from pirates as opposed to doing whatever it is you do to make money. It's a case of the prey naturally migrating elsewhere because there are too many predators. As it sits, low-sec is really just a passageway to 0.0. As a miner you'd have to be stupid to try to make a living in low-sec unless your corp or alliance spends a lot of time running anti-pirate operations. Hopefully the factional warfare comes soon, and really spices things up in Empire. Since there's all these stories about fighting and raids between the major factions it would be cool to just be floating along and come across an NPC battle between Gallente raiders and a Caldari convoy, where you can choose to join the battle on one side or another... or even be blatantly attacked by one or the other based on your standings. What would be even more interesting is if a player character joined the opposite side in the fight, that it could turn into a PVP/PVE battle. In other MMORPG's simply traveling opens you to random attack from hostile NPC's... why not in EVE too? [/ideas]
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.29 05:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Kirex Edited by: Kirex on 29/07/2007 04:49:26 Get an escort? A BC with armor/shield gang mods/bonuses, web for faster align, and smart bombs to fly up to the freighter and smart bomb the drones. Oh wait, you want to go AFK on autopilot to make easy money with no effort. False dichotomy. There are not merely two arguments, one being, "WAAAH, ME AM WANT HAUL T2 MODS AFK FRUM JITA SAEF!!!111" and the other being, "Suicide ganking is perfectly fine as-is." God, if we were required to use proper logic to post around here, this would be the quietest forum on the planet.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.07.29 05:28:00 - [14] There is a problem. People can very successfully suicide gank on a trial account. It is both logical and reasonable that people can suicide gank but it should have serious consequences beyond the loss of a ship and from what I've seen a large number of the ganks are done with trial accounts thus avoiding any of the real consequences. This needs to change, also the response times on Concord are a tad unrealistic. In short, no suicide ganking for trial accounts and a slower response time on Concord. ---------------------------------------- This Thread needs some Dev lovin but it will take a bump from anyone
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.29 05:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Kirex Edited by: Kirex on 29/07/2007 04:49:26 Get an escort? A BC with armor/shield gang mods/bonuses, web for faster align, and smart bombs to fly up to the freighter and smart bomb the drones. Oh wait, you want to go AFK on autopilot to make easy money with no effort. False dichotomy. There are not merely two arguments, one being, "WAAAH, ME AM WANT HAUL T2 MODS AFK FRUM JITA SAEF!!!111" and the other being, "Suicide ganking is perfectly fine as-is." God, if we were required to use proper logic to post around here, this would be the quietest forum on the planet. I'm well aware this isn't a dichotomy. Im stating there are ways to prevent suicide ganking, just some people are refusing to use them because it requires "too much effort" to protect their multibillion ISK investments.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.29 05:57:00 - [16] I run freighter security and we have successfully prevented multiple ganks to date, if you dont want to defend your assets you deserve to lose them Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.29 06:17:00 - [17] Originally by: Kirex I'm well aware this isn't a dichotomy. Im stating there are ways to prevent suicide ganking, just some people are refusing to use them because it requires "too much effort" to protect their multibillion ISK investments. Or because their operation is too small or too close to the break-even point to make escorts feasible. Or because the majority of the measures that can be taken against the suicide gankers themselves result in ship losses / sec hits anyways. Or because they're lazy little gits that want to AFK a freighter full of T2 mods through Niarja. Take your pick. I'll admit to hauling stupid before, but not when it counts. When I'm hauling and am dead set on not losing my ship or cargo, I behave like a schizoid conspiracy theorist in downtown Langley, VA. Originally by: Kwint Sommer In short, no suicide ganking for trial accounts and a slower response time on Concord. This. Also, running from CONCORD should be an option. If they were all-powerful, they wouldn't bloody well need the DED, would they? I would almost advocate that the suicide sec hit should be account-wide to prevent disposable alts as well, but that would open several cans of worms.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.07.29 06:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Luigi Thirty There is no problem Right, no problem other than risk vs. reward is severely out of whack for both parties here. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.29 07:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Webster Belken Originally by: Luigi Thirty There is no problem whatever your smoking I'm sure it's not legal. wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". 1st, I couldn't help but notice you are in the noob corp, but you have a sig, which suggests you are not a noob, shame on you. 2nd, The term Exploit is used correctly only when describing behavior which is possible but banned by the devs, look up POS bowling if you want to see what an exploit actually looks like. 3rd, Suiciding works only on those too lazy to play the game they are paying to play. If you warp to 0, and are even moderately careful when you are hauling hundreds of millions worth of stuff you will never ever have one happen to you. 4th RL example, (Usually I flame these but the notion is to point out the sheer stupidity of flyng valuable cargo in the paper tank T1 industrials) Do banks move the money in crapy Ford Explorers or to they pony up a little extra for a car that ignores bullets? now back to the OP, There is one problem with suicide ganking, I can't play. Let outlaws into High sec! -Galan
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.29 07:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Amarria Black Or because their operation is too small or too close to the break-even point to make escorts feasible. Or because the majority of the measures that can be taken against the suicide gankers themselves result in ship losses / sec hits anyways. Or because they're lazy little gits that want to AFK a freighter full of T2 mods through Niarja. Take your pick. I'll admit to hauling stupid before, but not when it counts. When I'm hauling and am dead set on not losing my ship or cargo, I behave like a schizoid conspiracy theorist in downtown Langley, VA. Uhm? How do most of the solutions involve ship loss? The solutions are Dont' be AFK, and if it's cargo worth more than 300mil have a friend, either as a scout or as a flying tank booster with web. A small operation with that little cushon should be even more paranoid than you. Seriously though, how many of the former have you actually ever heard from here? The forum whiners on empire ganks are nearly all in the lazy git catagory, you can also find them on the "Let me AFK warp to 0" threads and they don't like being told to play the game there either. -Galan
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.29 08:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Webster Belken wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. No, its the ten same people with their 10 alts whining about how their freighters got ganked. Quote: But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". I dont suicide gank and I see no problems with the way things are today. If people cant figure out more cunning ways to move stuff then thats their problem, and I dont tun along calling people griefers. Oh and ITS NOT an exploit. This isnt wow, go back there isntead of bringing your rubbish here. Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Galan Amarias Uhm? How do most of the solutions involve ship loss? The solutions are Dont' be AFK, and if it's cargo worth more than 300mil have a friend, either as a scout or as a flying tank booster with web. A small operation with that little cushon should be even more paranoid than you. Seriously though, how many of the former have you actually ever heard from here? The forum whiners on empire ganks are nearly all in the lazy git catagory, you can also find them on the "Let me AFK warp to 0" threads and they don't like being told to play the game there either. -Galan Don't be AFK isn't really a solution. If you pop through a gate in a freighter and the other side's camped, your options are nil whether you're at the keyboard or not. That's right up there with "shoot them back", "don't undock", and "leave half your haul at home" on the list of unproductive and reactive solutions. This is EVE, where you're either proactive or flotsam. Some proactive solutions: Have a wingman repping. Not horribly effective considering it's countered directly by gasp gankers throwing more ships at you. May require a small sized fleet to be truly functional. Have an alt fly ahead and scout. Tougher to counter, but possible. Have an alt fly ahead and preload gates. Have a wingman in a hauler ready to loot your wreck. You still lost your ship and whatever else blew up. Have a wingman shoot the ships / drones, jam, smartbomb, etc. Wingman still loses a ship. Preemptively wardec the gankers. Impossible if disposable alts are in a noobcorp. You'll note the majority of those suggestions result in some sort of loss to your corp, be it sec standing, cash, isk/hour, or a combination thereof. Most are also metagame solutions, which while effective, are less than elegant. There's also the requirement that you bring a fleet to hold your dong while you pee, which only works if you've got said dong-holders on-call 23/7. I agree, though, that the vast majority of publicized suicide ganks have been AFK targets or war target hauler alts, and that quite a few of the whines have come from people who could've solved their problem by manning up and actually playing the game. That doesn't mean that the adults can't hold a rational discourse on the topic.
Ballistic CEO The Ballistic Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:15:00 - [23] totally agree nothing needs fixing. however to re-iterate for the whiners: (1) transport ship, not hauler (2) eggs, basket. that is all.
Dylatar Gallente Ocean Eleven	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:18:00 - [24] The problem isn't that ganking freighters is possible. Me thinks it should be possible. But the limit (worth og cargo) which makes it profitable is too low. Freighters are meant to carry big amounts of cargo, and I don't talk about the super expensive items or a full load of T2 ships. Me for example is a producer. I produce with 2 chars and haul with 2 chars for the regular open market mostly. That makes it necessary to keep the mineral supply running. So there is no other way than buying and hauling sometimes loads of minerals to the station where I produce. This are usual common minerals, not the uber-worth stuff. Sure, it's still more effective to fly a freighter just loaded to the half than flying x times with normal industrial ships. But that causes the existence of freighters to get absurd. Freighters should be vulnerable, like other ships too - but the worth of the cargo before its profitable for gankers must be higher. The options available for escort or defense of a freighter aren't pleasing yet. Let me explain my thoughts: 1. Wingman/wingmen repping: can easy be countered just by more ganking ships. Additional you need more people. More people = more peoples time = costs ISK. If you hire escort it costs pure ISK, if you let corpmates join it costs their time (in this time they also could be productive otherwise for the corp), so in the last it also "costs" ISK. In the case of plain minerals for a simple T1 production chain these costs are too high to be covered by selling the finnished product. 2. Alt scouting: may work to check for dangers, but if you find a possible gank setup you just have to dock and wait and in the first point don't reach your destination. 3. Preloading gates: May be an option in combination with 2), but if you really use an alt just for this actions he will loose sec-status more and more. And disposing an alt cause of this is not allowed, so you need to regain sec status with it. 4. Wingman to loot your wreck: not an option, really. 5. Wingman fighting drones/gankers: will be destroyed before he can finish his job or take enough influence on the gank. 6. Wardec gankers: like mentioned don't work for NPC-corps. And who knows 24h before it happens who will setup a gankfleet on his freighter? So most freigher flights haul the "daily crap" around the empire. The problem is that this junk at the amount a freighter can carry already is worth enough to make a gank profitable. T1 production doesn't gain enough ISK to cover the cost of any escort. That a escort can be done by corpmembers itself, that doesn't mean the escort has no costs. Escort costs time, and time = ISK. Another thing that leads to this problem are trade hubs. If you want to buy minerals in big amounts you have to go to a hub. Only there you get all you need. That leads you on a few routes through the empire if you need to travel far distances. If you try to vary these routes, especially between the factions, you still can't avoid some bottleneck systems you must pass and can't avoid. And these systems often are the 0.5 systems. The gankers know exactly where freighter must pass through without having a chance to avoid. Not to travel afk also is not THE solution for this. Ok, you're safe at the arrival gate, but at the start gate you have to allign and accelerate. That takes some time with a freighter. Using normal industrials or transport ships also isn't a solution. Yes, they allign faster and get into warp faster. But the're also much cheaper to gank than a freigher. Use 20 dominix at a freighter to gank, use 2-3 on a transport. There must be consequences to make it more expensive for the gankers, so it needs more valuable goods loaded to be profitable. Remove insurance payout for concord kills. Not a single insurance in the world insures criminal acts in any way. Freighters still can be killed for revenge or interrupting enemy support lines. That has a value not be counted in ISK anyway.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:42:00 - [25] An example for those claiming the answer is to bring more people. Ship 1b Cargo 1b Haul time 1hr Sales profit on cargo = 10% (very generous) = 100m 3 escorts = 25m profit each Of course 25m only works if no one loses a ship so attacking the enemy drones is out of the question, scouting is easily countered by the gankers posting a scout of their own and having the suicide squad aligned to the gate from a SS. That leaves repping which can still be countered by adding more gankers to gank either the reppers or add the extra DPS needed. It takes around 3-4 large reps to counter the DPS of one dominix. Lose one ship and it takes 20 runs to make up the loss of ship and cargo.... that is of course if you don't take escorts, with the escorts it'd take 80 runs. Alternatively you could run missions risk free for 30m/h and not have the wait for escorts cut into your play time or profits.
Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 17:21:00 - [26] all you need is a scout to tell you if there is a gank waiting for you on the other side. If there is, dont jump through go somewhere else, or wait for the gankers to hit someone else or get bored and leave. Its really not hard. With one scout and warp to zero you can prevent losses by simply not giving gankers the opertunity. The other advantage of a scout is that any noob can do it, so you just need to grab a newbie from your corp and pay him very little (like 2-3m, which to him is a lot). If you are hauling something really valueable get 2-3 scouts to check the gate behind you (make sure a gank isnt following you) and the next gate.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 18:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 29/07/2007 18:22:36 Originally by: Galan Amarias 1st, I couldn't help but notice you are in the noob corp, but you have a sig, which suggests you are not a noob, shame on you. 2nd, The term Exploit is used correctly only when describing behavior which is possible but banned by the devs, look up POS bowling if you want to see what an exploit actually looks like. 3rd, Suiciding works only on those too lazy to play the game they are paying to play. If you warp to 0, and are even moderately careful when you are hauling hundreds of millions worth of stuff you will never ever have one happen to you. 4th RL example, (Usually I flame these but the notion is to point out the sheer stupidity of flyng valuable cargo in the paper tank T1 industrials) Do banks move the money in crapy Ford Explorers or to they pony up a little extra for a car that ignores bullets? 2nd: If that was the case, there are only like 2 exploits in all of EVE, as CCP almost never admits theres a problem....its a "feature" till they patch it out. Not buying your definition. Current Suicide ganking IS an exploit because only 1 ship can do it as cheaply as it is done. The Domi. Which by the way is rumored to be nerfed in the next patch, in that Concord will now target and jam drones as well when they arrive. 3rd: Wrong, ganks happen on the other side of the gate while the freighter is aligning. And webbers are said to be fixed so they dont speed up alignment anymmore. AFK or not you can still be ganked just as easily. 4th: Your RL example: Please point me to the frieghter that can equip a tank. Really, just link it to me. Thats right, it doesnt exist, try again.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:27:00 - [28] The ONLY flaw I see with the suicide ganking of freighters (or any suicide ganking tbh) is the fact that CONCORD does not jam the drones. Now since that problem is being fixed, then there are no problems. EVE is supposed to be a dangerous place, even in the highest security of systems. If you actually read the player guide and backstory information, you will realise that CONCORD is not here to prevent crime, they are here to punish the criminals. Of course this leaves the option of suicide attacks, but this is intended by the developers of the game, and other than the problem of drones being ignored, is working as intended. The biggest thing you can do to avoid getting suicided is to PLAY SMART! Hauling billions worth of goods in a T1 hauler is asking for it. Hauling billions worth of goods in a freighter with no escort is asking for it. EVE is a multiplayer game and is designed with this in mind. There is always strength in numbers. You are allowed to have people scouting for you, and you have the map tools to check ships destroyed and such in the systems you are traveling through. -=^=-
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Amarria Black Don't be AFK isn't really a solution.... It's a big dang part of the solution. Some proactive solutions: Have a wingman repping. Not horribly effective considering it's countered directly by gasp gankers throwing more ships at you. May require a small sized fleet to be truly functional. Have an alt fly ahead and scout. Tougher to counter, but possible. You'll note the majority of those suggestions result in some sort of loss to your corp, be it sec standing, cash, isk/hour, or a combination thereof. Most are also metagame solutions, which while effective, are less than elegant. There's also the requirement that you bring a fleet to hold your dong while you pee, which only works if you've got said dong-holders on-call 23/7. I agree, though, that the vast majority of publicized suicide ganks have been AFK targets or war target hauler alts, and that quite a few of the whines have come from people who could've solved their problem by manning up and actually playing the game. That doesn't mean that the adults can't hold a rational discourse on the topic. I personaly think you haven't put enough thought into the defense solutions. 1st off anyone saying "shoot back" is being silly, shooting back just gets you killed too, concord will do the shooting, you just need to live through the fun. With that in mind I removed most of your unworkable ideas, leaving the two that are all you really need. Ok so when we say "Suicide ganking" are we talking lone afk indy goes pop, or swarm of battleships ganks unwary freighter? For the industrial ship all he needs to be is not afk and mabey 1 stabb or inertial comp fitted. On the gate aproach he will instawarp. On the exit someone would have to be on the gate ready with a sensor booster and at least two points to catch him. Unlikely since they will want to scan for good loot before they get concorded. Indy ships need only really fear low sec and afk aproach. For freighters it's a little different BUT! it can be done with exactly 1 other ship. just 1, That ship is the mighty thorax. The thorax must be in the same corp as you so it can target and use agressive modules w/o penalty. Fit the highs with shield or armor reppers, your choice. Mids 1 MWD, note the thorax gets a bonus, and a whole lotta burst ECM. Lows, Overdrive, and inertial stabbs. Drones are repair buddies too. What does this mighty thorax do? Well first it scouts ahead 1 jump, when it sees no one at the gate only then does the freighter warp to the other side and jump through. This is even better if the two guys are on TS or your freighter pilot has an alt. Your routs should be planned, so have some ss midway through each system. Freighter warps from gate to ss then aligns and waits for the all clear. In the unlikely event that you are sooo regular in your hauling pattern that a swarm of dominix's is waiting aligned in a nearby ss, and you missed that on scan somehow? were they all cloaked? Anyway if the swarm comes you use your mwd to bump your freighter out of the killzone, they get concordoken and you laugh at them. If the drones are all over your freighter you get close and hit the burst, AFTER RAMMING, this will force the crappy drone sensors to lose lock and since you and your corpmate and a bunch of crim drones are the only ones within 5km Woo the thorax does not get concorded. Now warp the freigter to the nearby station, empty the hold and go scoop up what's left of the fleet of dead BS. Do you see, two people near flawless defense. As for those of you crowing about % lost and all that nonsense. Most rax pilots, especially corp mates, would provide this service for free, 10mil, or hey a few spare thoraxes. All of this is well within your means. -Galan
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 29/07/2007 18:22:36 2nd: If that was the case, there are only like 2 exploits in all of EVE, as CCP almost never admits theres a problem....its a "feature" till they patch it out. Not buying your definition. There may be a few more than two, but yeah, that's the proper definition CCP is real good at making exploits, real ones, go away and they freely acknoledge that most of what you can do is allowed. Excessive noob griefing and pos bowling are the only exploits I can think of. Quote: Current Suicide ganking IS an exploit because only 1 ship can do it as cheaply as it is done. The Domi. Which by the way is rumored to be nerfed in the next patch, in that Concord will now target and jam drones as well when they arrive. actually I believe the drone "nerf" is already in. I wouldn't count on drones ever being jammed by concord but they will be blowed up real good. As for the cost of a domini it's you industrialsts who set the price. Use your billions to buy em all up in Jita and then set the price higher. Quote: 3rd: Wrong, ganks happen on the other side of the gate while the freighter is aligning. And webbers are said to be fixed so they dont speed up alignment anymmore. AFK or not you can still be ganked just as easily. Actually here is where EVE favors the prepared. With 1 shuttle you can pop into the next system and scan, do you see 20 Dominix on scan? Hey pick a different route. No dominix on scan, ok your clear, jump through. Better yet look above this response for how 1 Thorax can save you all your woe. Quote: 4th: Your RL example: Please point me to the frieghter that can equip a tank. Really, just link it to me. Thats right, it doesnt exist, try again. The example wasn't ment to get you thinking about tanks. Freighters come tanked, they have truckloads of shield, armor and hull. That's why it takes a small fleet to kill them. The point of the example was this, people in RL with valuable stuff usually take some pretty extronadary effort to keep that stuff safe. Still RL examples are less than ideal since this isn't RL. Nonetheless; if you are moving 1+BILLION ISK BE CAREFUL! even rudimentary caution will negate most of the gank stratigies. They need to get a fleet to you after all. So.. Don't fly regular times that observers can predict. Don't fly blind, GET A SCOUT DON'T FLY AFK and Don't panic. The only people who can't folow these guidelines are the ISK sellers in Noob corps. Is that the kind of people you want to be defending? -Galan
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:19:00 - [31] lol flamebait
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:53:00 - [32] I'm not sure what can be done when people are stupid enough to fly around with several billions worth of modules in an Iteron 5. I mean, why use an interceptor when you can use one of the slowest ships in game? We're sorry, something happened.
Jonny JoJo	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Draygo Korvan all you need is a scout to tell you if there is a gank waiting for you on the other side. If there is, dont jump through go somewhere else, or wait for the gankers to hit someone else or get bored and leave. Its really not hard. If I was in charge of a suicide gank squad taking on, say, freightors, I would position a pilt of arbitrators/vexors/domi's 200,000km from the gate off grid and align at full speed. Let the freightor's scout report nothing and instawarp in as soon as the freightor is seen by a alt on the other side as jumping though.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:06:00 - [34] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/07/2007 09:07:55 Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 30/07/2007 09:06:42 Quote: Nonetheless; if you are moving 1+BILLION ISK [b]BE -Galan Ok : 1 billion isk is 1333 isk / m3 (assuming the freighter is nearly full, 750 000 m3). The "construction" value of most ships and t1 modules (aka minerals) are between 500 and 2500 isk / m3. Thank you for proving, once again, that the risk / reward of freighter is out of balance. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:16:00 - [35] Edited by: Vala Draaken on 30/07/2007 11:17:21 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Ok : 1 billion isk is 1333 isk / m3 (assuming the freighter is nearly full, 750 000 m3). The "construction" value of most ships and t1 modules (aka minerals) are between 500 and 2500 isk / m3. Thank you for proving, once again, that the risk / reward of freighter is out of balance. Not really. It takes 20-30 people to gank a freighter, maybe more. If the freighter is carrying 1 billion in cargo and let's say half of that survives. That leaves 25 mill pr person (20 people). With the time it takes to get a gang of that size together, set everything up and waiting for a target, it's just not worth the trouble. Of course you can do this 2 or 3 times an hour (15-20 minutes to dock and wait out the aggresion timer), once you are setup, if there's enough targets. So 75 mill/hour if all goes well and doesn't even take into account the 15 mill it costs to insure a new ship for each gank. What's really unbalanced is, I make much more than that, with much less effort, just hauling stuff around in my T1 hauler (Training for T2 haulers, though) and I don't get ganked, because highsec gankers are lazy, too. They don't want to spend the effort to go after a hauler that WTZ and near insta-warps on the exit gate, (Thank you Low Friction Nozzle Joints) when there's no lack afk-autopiloting haulers. Unless someone's specifically out to get me, I don't ever expect to get ganked, using this simple precaution. And I'm flying in and out of Jita/Nonni/Oursulaert several times a week, sometimes several times a day. Granted, with freighters it is a bit more diffult, but the potential income, using a freighter, is also a lot bigger. And using the numbers above, I doubt that you're in much danger of getting highsec ganked with 1 billion in cargo. Maybe 5 billion gets you in the danger zone, is my guess. Finally here's a quote from the Eve Knowledgebase: Originally by: Attacked in secure space? Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. That's just how I see it, Vala D. Edit: Grammar --------
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Vala Draaken Finally here's a quote from the Eve Knowledgebase: Originally by: Attacked in secure space? Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. That's just how I see it, Vala D. Thats wonderfull, and to me that makes perfect sense. That is, if it was'nt for the sentense: "Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord" If I was flying in a standard Reaper with 2, 3 or 5 other teammates, on a trial account, or simply just on an alt from my account - it doesnt really matter as long as the loot goes to your main of some kind, who does.nt take any risk or beating at all - I would'nt bother loosing my ship and good standing with Concorede. Not at all. Really! I would'nt ...
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Vala Draaken Starting such an operation is much less difficult that you make it sound... it requires a few mails, a date, and a place. And the fact that trading gives the biggest pay-out of all occupations in Eve is another problem entirely. Trading should also be fixed, but since players give most prices... you can't fix players. Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. Assuming 1 gank / hour, you do make as much profit from ganking with a freighter with about 2.5 billion in cargo. The math is easy to do. You take : - the expected isk / hour (let's say 30 million), - the cost of ship lost (varies wildly, between a net profit of 10 million per ship and 50 million lost per ship), let's say 20, - both of those are multiplied by the number of persons doing the gank (also varies wildly between 10 and 50), let's say 20, - the percentage of loot lost (assuming 50%), - I add a modifier to take into account the percentage of the cargo really recovered (other people go and take the loot too) and successful attempt rate (sometime it does fail or so it seems). That makes : (30+20) * 20 * 2 * 1.25 = 2.5 billion. Note that the numbers take into consideration that you make as much profit as missioning in high sec, more or less. If the goal is to break even while having fun, all freighter transporting 1 billion are fair game. None of the defense mechanism above really work... they are all foiled by using a few more ships to gank (which is already done), or prevent the trader from trading (using a scout is fine, because you don't lose your ship.... but you effectively stop trading when your scout finds something, and there is no way to pass the gate without using an alt to call on concord for the few next gates and hope the gankers don't pursue). Now, the only question I want an answer on, is : "what does 2.5 billion in a freighter represent, and is transporting that much for a freighter intended or not ? If yes, nothing is to be changed. If not, the solution is easy. Add or remove more HP to the freighter, to account for the real amount that is supposed to be transported. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Hugh Hefner Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:38:00 - [38] Have any of you piloted a Freighter 20+ jumps with a scout-alt?? To pilot it non-afk is torture enough that, now you suggest scout lol Do any of you actually pilot freighters or are you all cowardly damn loophole-worshippers protecting your asshat-trade? AFK-hauling in high-sec with freighters(in my opinion this should be true for any ship-type) should hold no risk of gank at all(unless its from a wartarget) unless it costs the attacker more than the victim, thats my opinion, exploiting bugs in game-mechanics should be looked down upon not be accepted.
Vala Draaken Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. My 5 billion guess, was based on what'd it'd take, to make it worthwhile to me. I wouldn't go into highsec ganking unless I thought it was a lot more profitable than missions or what I do now. I certainly wouldn't do it for 30 mill/hour. Make it 150 mill/hour and I'd start getting interested. 300 mill/hour and I'm definetly in. Vala D. --------
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Vala Draaken Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Furthermore, I think suicide ganking should stay. I do find it's a stupid griefing mechanic, but it does make Eve what it is today. But do the math, please before saying that "it's about 5 billion". It isn't. The "brainless" and secure way to make money in high sec is either missions or mining, and those make about 30 million per char and hour. My 5 billion guess, was based on what'd it'd take, to make it worthwhile to me. I wouldn't go into highsec ganking unless I thought it was a lot more profitable than missions or what I do now. I certainly wouldn't do it for 30 mill/hour. Make it 150 mill/hour and I'd start getting interested. 300 mill/hour and I'm definetly in. Vala D. There would not be any freighters left alive in empire right now if it yielded that much benefits... Obviously, you are not in the norm in empire. Ah, and note that it's 30 million / char... dunno, sometimes people say they make 75 - 100 million per hour, but upon closer look, you discover they have 3 or 4 account, leading to a lower income that stated. By trading however, you can make that much money alone... and given your post, you probably do. However, you have a point. People will start to change the way they play only if they make more benefits that way. Well some may do that kind of stuff for fun... but gathering 20 people just for fun is pretty uncommon. That is the main reason why I use the 30 million isk / per person to compare income and not 75 millions. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:31:00 - [41] Most simple solution would be to make cargo-scanning a hostile action. Suicide gankers can still kill a freighter but they don't know in advance wether it will be pro*****ble or not and thus it will be risky for them to do.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Webster Belken wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". Suicide ganking is NOT considered an exploit. - Carebear Pirate -
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Webster Belken wake up and smell the roses - - there seem to be tons of people who do think its a problem. But I'll try and see your point of view "yep, no problem for those who enjoy griefing and making a profit off an exploit - no problem at all". Suicide ganking is NOT considered an exploit. what he said.. its been in the game for years - its not an exploit.
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:44:00 - [44] /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know?
Sorted EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that.
Nocturnal Avenger The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Sorted Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that. ^^ What he said And we are not related in any way :) - Carebear Pirate -
Dreysine Endgame.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Originally by: Sorted Originally by: Nerf Caldari /signed It would be kind of cool if CONCORD-related deaths didn't pay out insurance, though. More hardcore. Ya know? I'm cool with that. ^^ What he said And we are not related in any way :) i think most suicide gankers would be ok with that, since most dont make a move anyway unless they stand to make a few hundred mil at least. the problem would be noobs who get accidentally concorded. that would really hurt them, while the suicide gankers would really be effected. -------------------- Are you looking at my bum??
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:31:00 - [48] Two things. Eliminating the insurance on concorded ships would hurt noobs not suicide gankers. The gankers will profit either way. A young noob who makes a mistake could be set back weeks which is a little harsh when you are that new. Also Concord and SEC are not the same company. Why would SEC do what concord says? Seccond. Risk vs Reward. I am sick to death of this drivel. The Reward of suicide ganking is established by the players flying haulers, not the gankers. The gankers can not controll what they will get, they could very well get nothing. This is why it is up to the Players of the haulers to provide the risk as well as the reward. Now this is not a "shoot back" suggestion. That is just going to increase your loss. The way to win is to eliminate the reward. Thus bring the risk of a fruitless hunt to bear. When 20 people get togeather to gank haulers and spend their whole night looking for one only to get nothing, they will stop ganking haulers. It's not worth their time. Players caused the situation, players need to solve it. If you want to know what the devs think ask yourself why were freighters modified to drop their loot after they pop? The only rational reason is that the devs want to see freighters go pop. It is up to the freigher pilots to keep that from happening. -Galan
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Galan Amarias Seccond. Risk vs Reward. I am sick to death of this drivel. The Reward of suicide ganking is established by the players flying haulers, not the gankers. The gankers can not controll what they will get, they could very well get nothing. This is why it is up to the Players of the haulers to provide the risk as well as the reward. -Galan The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok. Wrong. The "Risk" they face is not losing money on the kill. It's losing money by wasting their time. That risk is generated by freighter pilots being really careful with their ships. Right now the number of lazy pilots with high value cargos has drawn predators. If you want them to go away you need to get the prey to be wary. Do you see Both Risk and Reward are determined by the pilots of the freigters. The gankers are powerless against them if they recognize that and take steps to act on it. Alternate routes, scouts, friendly back up (for repair webs and ramming). All these things lower the ISK it's possible to make by suicide ganking. There are no effective countermeasures for the gankers, they need you to be fat stupid and lazy. -Galan
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:10:00 - [51] Suicide ganking wouldn't be so prolofic if some of the lazier folks took some obvious and easy measures to extend there life expectancy. It's all been said before what you can do to avoid the gank but they still don't learn, fly t1 haulers afk filled with fat lootz and then whine when they die. GOONIES = OMNIPOTENCE INCARNATE
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:58:00 - [52] Urge.. to post.. rising.. its a good isk sink, keeps the economy flowing ya know? Once its in the station, its safe forever.. gotta be some risk somewhere along the way. i think its great tbh.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.01 11:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... The big problem is that suicide gankers know in front wether they will make isk on a suicide gank or not. Therefore the reward is always bigger then the risk for them. You should be able to gank freighters in high-sec, but atm there's no risk for the attackers and that's not ok. Wrong. The "Risk" they face is not losing money on the kill. It's losing money by wasting their time. That risk is generated by freighter pilots being really careful with their ships. Right now the number of lazy pilots with high value cargos has drawn predators. If you want them to go away you need to get the prey to be wary. That's not a risk. They don't loose anything to it, all they need is a single scout to scan for nice targets while the others can do missions/rat/trade etc. Once a nice target is found they gather and kill it. BTW being lazy and afk or not in a freighter doesn't really matter much because a freighter takes ages to align and a single pirate-scout can bump it a few times to give the rest enough time to warp-in. Quote: Do you see Both Risk and Reward are determined by the pilots of the freigters. The gankers are powerless against them if they recognize that and take steps to act on it. Alternate routes, scouts, friendly back up (for repair webs and ramming). All these things lower the ISK it's possible to make by suicide ganking. There are no effective countermeasures for the gankers, they need you to be fat stupid and lazy. -Galan All your solution just don't work. Alternate routes -> you want to sell your stuff somewhere so you still have to go to that system and because it's most probably a trade hub gankerts know where they have to look. Scouts -> If the attackers also use a scout all you see is 1 ship at a gate, all others are in a station or somewhere else in the system. Friendly backup -> What can they do ? Do you know how much damage a gang of suicide domi's do and how many people you need to counteract it ? Only thing a freighter pilot can do atm to prevent his ship being ganked is to not have much expensive cargo in his ship (and that's exactly what a freighter is for) Just make cargoscanning a ship a hostile act. Nothing changes only the pirates don't know their profit in front.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias ... . That's not a risk. They don't loose anything to it, all they need is a single scout to scan for nice targets while the others can do missions/rat/trade etc. Once a nice target is found they gather and kill it. BTW being lazy and afk or not in a freighter doesn't really matter much because a freighter takes ages to align and a single pirate-scout can bump it a few times to give the rest enough time to warp-in. If you are dedicated and willing to use a scout and safe spots it will be _very_ difficult for them to catch you. It takes only 2 ships though they need to be in the same corp. Three works even faster. 1 is the freighter. the other one or two are thoraxes. You set a ss along your route at the midpoint of each system you are traveling through, that way the freighter is never waiting at a gate where it can be bumped. The ss is directly away from the gate so the freighter starts aligned and just need to get up to speed. The thoraxes have mwd and can bump the freighter away from hostiles though that shouldn't be necesary. Thorax jumps into system while freighter is alligned to gate in ss. No gank on scan? ok bring the freighter through, once it's in system web it and get it to the ss. Your gankers have to be concentrated to get you while you do this, so they can't be off missioning in their gank dominix's. Mind you the notion of them doing that is absurdly silly. They also have to be far enough away from the gate to be unscannable when you bring the scout through. Since the freighter never sits at a gate it can't be rammed off one. If they want to try and scan you with probes, well they will need to be quick and if you see probes on scan, dock. Because you are wary they need to be very fast to catch you and that means they can't be docked. Quote: All your solution just don't work. Alternate routes -> you want to sell your stuff somewhere so you still have to go to that system and because it's most probably a trade hub gankerts know where they have to look. Scouts -> If the attackers also use a scout all you see is 1 ship at a gate, all others are in a station or somewhere else in the system. Friendly backup -> What can they do ? Do you know how much damage a gang of suicide domi's do and how many people you need to counteract it ? Only thing a freighter pilot can do atm to prevent his ship being ganked is to not have much expensive cargo in his ship (and that's exactly what a freighter is for) Just make cargoscanning a ship a hostile act. Nothing changes only the pirates don't know their profit in front. My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe. However if you adopt it or something like it you will be much much less likely to be the freighter that gets ganked. The gankers will find easier prey. Cargoscanning will never be a hostile act. Insurance will not be nixed for people with criminal flags. Read the link on my sig. The devs want inventive enough people to be able to profit from "kamakazi attacks" in empire. What the freigter pilots need is to do as much as possible to minimize the profit so there will not be swarms of gankers. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.02 08:22:00 - [55] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 02/08/2007 08:22:38 No, what is really needed is to know if transporting 1 billion isk of stuff in a freighter should get you blown up. Note : if you plan to build a dozen BS, and fill the freighter with uncompressed minerals, you already have more than 1 billion in cargo. It's also less than the value of a lot of t1 goods in a full freighter (I'm not talking about named stuff, but regular t1 goods like standard guns and the like...). The calculation is above. Suicide ganking is a stupid griefing mechanic, but it defines Eve. Therefore it should stay. However, there was a problem of balance before (drones), and is there another one now ? No one answered that... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.02 10:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Galan Amarias If you are dedicated and willing to use a scout and safe spots it will be _very_ difficult for them to catch you. It takes only 2 ships though they need to be in the same corp. Three works even faster. ... Your gankers have to be concentrated to get you while you do this, so they can't be off missioning in their gank dominix's. Mind you the notion of them doing that is absurdly silly. They also have to be far enough away from the gate to be unscannable when you bring the scout through. Since the freighter never sits at a gate it can't be rammed off one. If they want to try and scan you with probes, well they will need to be quick and if you see probes on scan, dock. Because you are wary they need to be very fast to catch you and that means they can't be docked. The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. Quote: My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe. However if you adopt it or something like it you will be much much less likely to be the freighter that gets ganked. The gankers will find easier prey. And so it isn't a solution, they still can find the easiest target and kill it without risk. If the freighter is filled with enough goods (which is exactly what a freighter is for) they attack, if not they don't do anything. Quote: What the freigter pilots need is to do as much as possible to minimize the profit so there will not be swarms of gankers. -Galan I totally agree (therefore i haven't been killed in empire sofar), but i just think it's wrong the gankers know exactly in front whether their attack will be profitable or not.
Lord Zoran Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:16:00 - [57] tbh i think you have to think of suiciders when taking stuff in high sec far too much, i mean at each gate for some reason i always think i'm gonna get sb'd when dropping out of warp --------------------------------------------- no sig for you !!!
Liilli Lee Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.02 11:51:00 - [58] "They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck." They also risk that a 3rd character comes along ;-) Cats are stupid - that is why they were given 9 lives. Dogs are smart - that is why they lick their "privates". (You would too - if you could)
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.03 05:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Okkie2 Originally by: Galan Amarias The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. that shp would have to be ready and waiting and a scout would see it there, would also be capable of bumping it right back away from the freighter. Who wins bump town? Well it'd probably go bad for the freighter but not necessarily and if you had the 2nd thorax to help it align again it's odds go up again and then the gankers have to get another rammer, and you can escalate infinately, except that every rammer can't be a ganker and eventually there are only so many people who will want a small slice of the loot. Quote: Originally by: Galan Amarias My method may not be foolproof, nothing ever will be because you can never be totally safe.... And so it isn't a solution, they still can find the easiest target and kill it without risk. If the freighter is filled with enough goods (which is exactly what a freighter is for) they attack, if not they don't do anything. There won't be a "solution" in the sense you are speaking of. The devs want high sec "kamakazi" to be not only possible but profitable. Read my sig. What you want is to be soo annoying to hunt and kill that they seek easier prey. As prey gets smarter and less gankable some gankers will adapt and become more dangerous and others will find something else to do with their time. Quote: I totally agree (therefore i haven't been killed in empire sofar), but i just think it's wrong the gankers know exactly in front whether their attack will be profitable or not. The only way they can know is to get the scan in. Proper defense will limit that, including watching when they are active as well as where. I think the existance of the scanner is to make it possible for them to know. If they didn't know it'd be much to hard to pick targets since they have to lose their ships. That would make profitibily reduce drasticly and given the nature of the thread in my sig I really don't see that happening. Even if scanning was a "hostile" act. Are you asking for something like kill rights? that'd be useless to the freighter and may not transfer to the gang. If it was concord death to scan, It never will be but if, then they'd just stockpile cheep scanner ships in a ss and use that. You still don't gain much. Better to think defensivly than to try to shoot back. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Okkie2 The gankers need only 1 single fast ship to bump the freighter out of alignment so it cannot warp. This will give them some time in which they can warp in their gank-ships and kill the freighter. They can even be waiting in a station. that shp would have to be ready and waiting and a scout would see it there, would also be capable of bumping it right back away from the freighter. Who wins bump town? Well it'd probably go bad for the freighter but not necessarily and if you had the 2nd thorax to help it align again it's odds go up again and then the gankers have to get another rammer, and you can escalate infinately, except that every rammer can't be a ganker and eventually there are only so many people who will want a small slice of the loot. At most gates you will find people, the freighter scout can never tell if it's a pirate or not. Furthermore the pirate scout only has to bump the freighter occasionaly to keep it out of alignment while the freighter scouts have a much harder job to do. They must keep the pirate away fom the freighter for some time to make sure it can align. A skilled pirate will not be stopped by 1 or 2 freighter escorts. Quote: There won't be a "solution" in the sense you are speaking of. The devs want high sec "kamakazi" to be not only possible but profitable. Read my sig. What you want is to be soo annoying to hunt and kill that they seek easier prey. As prey gets smarter and less gankable some gankers will adapt and become more dangerous and others will find something else to do with their time. I've read your siggie and i know that's the DEVs idea atm, i just don't agree with it Quote: The only way they can know is to get the scan in. Proper defense will limit that, including watching when they are active as well as where. I think the existance of the scanner is to make it possible for them to know. If they didn't know it'd be much to hard to pick targets since they have to lose their ships. That would make profitibily reduce drasticly and given the nature of the thread in my sig I really don't see that happening. My main problem with the empire killing atm is that the only thing you can do to prevent it is to move your valuables in a few runs so every single run is not profitable to kill. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods and is not meant to be used only for it's higher hitpoints. Atm you can use a freighter to transport stuff worth 700 mil or so, which often means it's only filled for a very small part. Quote: Even if scanning was a "hostile" act. Are you asking for something like kill rights? that'd be useless to the freighter and may not transfer to the gang. If it was concord death to scan, It never will be but if, then they'd just stockpile cheep scanner ships in a ss and use that. You still don't gain much. Better to think defensivly than to try to shoot back. -Galan Like i said, my main problem is that there is absolutely no defense against the killing except moving your stuff in multiple runs. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods, empire is meant to be pretty safe (not totally safe, but still pretty safe). The only reason i use a freighter atm is because of it's high hitpoints and not because it can transport a lot of goods.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Okkie2 At most gates you will find people, the freighter scout can never tell if it's a pirate or not. Furthermore the pirate scout only has to bump the freighter occasionaly to keep it out of alignment while the freighter scouts have a much harder job to do. They must keep the pirate away fom the freighter for some time to make sure it can align. A skilled pirate will not be stopped by 1 or 2 freighter escorts. Quite probably true, bit honestly how many camps employ this tatic rather than just having the blob ready and waiting? Either way I think we can agree that in a balanced game if 20-30 people put effort into killing 1 person, the 1 person should usually lose. Depending on the skill of the escorts, it may not be possible to keep the freighter aligned but I bet you could ram it away from the gankers.. that'd be an interesting contest to see. Quote: I've read your siggie and i know that's the DEVs idea atm, i just don't agree with it Can't argue that. Personally I felt like it was a breath of fresh air when I read it since is seems to silence all the people screaming "Exploit"! My main problem with the empire killing atm is that the only thing you can do to prevent it is to move your valuables in a few runs so every single run is not profitable to kill. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods and is not meant to be used only for it's higher hitpoints. Atm you can use a freighter to transport stuff worth 700 mil or so, which often means it's only filled for a very small part. Like i said, my main problem is that there is absolutely no defense against the killing except moving your stuff in multiple runs. A freighter is meant to transport a lot of goods, empire is meant to be pretty safe (not totally safe, but still pretty safe). The only reason i use a freighter atm is because of it's high hitpoints and not because it can transport a lot of goods. Well the value of those goods it was ment to transport can be brought into question. Bulky low value items can probably still exceed 1bil in value though. I think it'd be more interesting if there was either slots on the freighter, mabey with a ban on cargo expanders, or of there were a cargo ship between the industrials and the freighters. As it stands, if you are willing to blob back, and have the friends with mwd and reppers you can almost certainly disuade most gank gangs. Flying smart reduces a lot of the chance of getting killed, that includes limiting the value of your cargo so bravo there. You can also fly at off peak times. Preferably on off peak days. It would probably be irritating, but it would let you move more in 1 run. Until more freighter pilots take your example though, I suspect we'll still be seeing whine threads here on the boards. The answer to empire ganking
Keesd	Posted - 2007.08.03 07:48:00 - [62] I liked the earlier voiced idea of Concord protected convoys. There are those npc cargo ships flying around anyway and they seem just to take up space. Having convoys between throneworlds of more or less allied factions (Caldari, Amarr, Khanid), ( Gallente, Minmatar) which could be joined for a reasonable protection fee would be a) realistic, b) safe c) kind of fun.
uhrslart	Posted - 2007.08.03 09:57:00 - [63] Do you think, that removing the possibility to passive scan a freighter would solve the problem ? A suicide attack would than only make sense for strategic operations or for pirates that love the risk...
ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:07:00 - [64] Originally by: uhrslart Do you think, that removing the possibility to passive scan a freighter would solve the problem ? A suicide attack would than only make sense for strategic operations or for pirates that love the risk... Whats wrong with that?

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