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Game balance WAY outta whack..

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Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:17:00 - [31] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 30/07/2007 08:18:17 Originally by: Alteric Valar ...Sure people say, just use secure cans..but has anyone noticed the cargo space on the biggest one? It's less than the covetor's cargo hold. What good is that? I can fill a giant secure can in 1 and 1/2 pulls from a barge..thats a joke!... You know it's possible to use more than one GSC, right? - It's not as easy as jet-can mining. - It's not as efficient, perhaps. - But it's 100% safer. Trade off. Balance. EDIT: Just remember to clean up your GSCs when you're done, please. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:20:00 - [32] Some of the older dev postings (i think Oveur), indicate that ore theft is the sole reason CCP has allowed jetcan mining to exist. If it wasn't for people posing a serious threath to hours of mining by flipping, destroying or flat out stealingthe ore, jetcan mining would have posed too great an advantage and would have been nerfed long ago. Ore theft balances it. Learn and adapt. Get away from crowded systems if you insist on mining on your own. Sticking to mission areas to mine from is also good as it is very hard to probe down anyone in deadspace, so ore thieves generally don't bother.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:07:00 - [33] Edited by: cal nereus on 30/07/2007 09:08:31 Jetcan mining was never a part of the game to begin with. It was a clever innovation by the players using one game mechanic to their advantage, thereby speeding up the process of mining faster than was originally intended. CCP has chosen to applaud this creativity and let it continue. When you got your ore stolen, remember that CCP didn't necessarily have to allow jetcan mining in the first place... Just mine in an abandoned system, preferably with no stations around, or at least mine in a friendly system within which you know there are no ore thieves. Or use a series of multiple giant secure containers. Either that or simply don't jet-can mine. Or mine in groups. You have many options, if you choose to take the risky one, that's your call. --- Grismar.net
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:12:00 - [34] Get a friend in a battleship to "drop" the can. Put your mined ore into the jetcan with your friend ready to jump in, in case a thief shows up. Thief gets flagged mate in battleship warps in and kills thief, simple.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:40:00 - [35] The game is out of balance you are right. But the opposite way to which you describe. Clearly you have never tried stealing ore. Otherwise you would already know what a simple problem it is to counter. And lastly. Hulk. CCP has made them immune to suicide attacks. Invention has meant they now carry nothing of value to suicide gankers. They are immune to all high sec rats. They have massive cargo bays. This is disgusting. Macros. Farmshops. Immune NPC corp alts. All pigs in a trough that refills faster than their dirty snouts can shovel. What is also out of balance is the GREED of miners. But it is that greed that can often be their downfall. Your ore thief/pierate/greifer scum player learns quickly the bounds of what can and what can not be done. And rarely do they stray over the line.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:41:00 - [36] Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 30/07/2007 09:42:06 or join a corp and group mine with them you might even get some nice gang bonuses too join the recruitment channel and say miner looking for corp and watch as you get private chat spammed. or join my corp :-"
whahein Minmatar Bipolar Barnstorming	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:27:00 - [37] There is a problem with ore thieves and in genneral high sec huggers that pretend to be badass PvP'er by twisthing the mechanics of concord to the max, with NPC corp war dec imunity and a pretty limited agrro timer, theres just not enough risk involved for the corp thieves. Most corps dont have a gangk squad ready to protect their high sec miners and frankly if thats nesserery just get rid of concord all together. Change the agrro system a bit, dont give a useless 15 minute aggro from the victim, just remove all concord protection for the thief for 30 minutes. That would make semi hub systems like orvolle, stacmon and torrinos pretty dangerous for ore thieves. it might even mean that those markets gets a boost NPC corps need to be changed too, no scammer should be imune to war declarations. note that this solution dont mess whith the basic posibility of stealing ore it only increase risk of player action against an ore theif.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:13:00 - [38] Originally by: whahein There is a problem with ore thieves and in genneral high sec huggers that pretend to be badass PvP'er by twisthing the mechanics of concord to the max, with NPC corp war dec imunity and a pretty limited agrro timer, theres just not enough risk involved for the corp thieves. Hang on... this is a misguided whine, why am I replying? Dunno... we'll find out later. By "Twisting" of the mechanics, do you mean "relying on the target to not use the mechanics he's been given"? Because those mechanics give ample opportunity for your whole corp to bring retribution. You just choose not to. Originally by: whahein Most corps dont have a gangk squad ready to protect their high sec miners and frankly if thats nesserery just get rid of concord all together. Who's fault is that? But yes, get rid of Concord! Originally by: whahein Change the agrro system a bit, dont give a useless 15 minute aggro from the victim, just remove all concord protection for the thief for 30 minutes. That would make semi hub systems like orvolle, stacmon and torrinos pretty dangerous for ore thieves. it might even mean that those markets gets a boost Yes please! I'd love all those muppets to be have-a-go heroes! I had a catalyst and a caracal (from Frege alliance of all people lol) concord themselves on me while I was dealing with a miner who though his mining ship is an uber pvp vessel too, I would have liked the opportunity to have collected those killmails, but those infernal Concord deviants stepped in and took them away from me :( grrrr. Originally by: whahein NPC corps need to be changed too, no scammer should be imune to war declarations. Nobody should be immune, agreed! Originally by: whahein note that this solution dont mess whith the basic posibility of stealing ore it only increase risk of player action against an ore theif. And increasing fun too! I approve of all your measures, and I am on the other side of the fence! Does this mean a) CCP need to act or b) You didn't think it through Hmmmm... what does the jury say?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:13:00 - [39] Originally by: whahein Change the agrro system a bit, dont give a useless 15 minute aggro from the victim, just remove all concord protection for the thief for 30 minutes. That would make semi hub systems like orvolle, stacmon and torrinos pretty dangerous for ore thieves. it might even mean that those markets gets a boost Or they could just get rid of jetcan mining. And frankly, that's probably the more likely course they would take. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
JadalofOblivion Amarr Old Guard Industrialists	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Chavu You don't have to jet-can mine. Retriever and above can happily solo mine without a hauler. You must be using some kind of special retriever that no one else has. gj Secure containers do need to hold more. As to the solo part?.....you are gonna have to find a corp
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:16:00 - [41] OP, yes it is out of wack but CCP is not going to "fix" it any time soon. You have to remember, CCP's way of giving miners some "love" is to stack-nerf mining modules to keep production lower on ships that can actually defend themselves. Simple fixes to help bring things back in line: 1) GSCs raised to 15Km3. Introduce a timer on them so if they are not used for 2 weeks they deteriorate. Make them suceptable to suicide blowing up and hackable. Raise Anchoring to use them to 3-4. This gives miners more options without making them the equivelant of a "I Win" button for miners. 2) Increase the cargo hold on all dedicated mining ships (including cruisers) by 100% (2x capacity). This makes jump mining actually feasible. 3) Reduce requirements to get into a Covetor to Barge 4) Anyone ever notice it takes exactly 1.5 hours from the time you can fly a Covetor to flying a Hulk? No other ship except an Iteron 5 requires level 5 in its primary skill, why should a barge? It takes a new character approximately 65 days to fly a Covetor right now, that is more time than to fly a BS. And that is if you start on one of 3 different skill paths; if not it can take over 100. A new character can fly a Vagabond in 100 days. 5) Hulk is a T2 ship, cream of the crop, toughest one on the market. Give it T2 resists. For all those with their "Risk vs. Reward", you are so full of it. Any barge less than a Hulk is a sitting duck to any suicider. They are even vulnerable to belt rats. Sure a Hulk is tough, but you are talking the best ship available, the equivalent of a mission runner's CNR; it SHOULD be tough. I think some of you need to start another character from scratch and try mining in HighSec long enough to go from Procurer to Retriever to Covetor, THEN gripe about how "safe" miners have it and how "easy" it is. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:23:00 - [42] Perhaps they should just get rid of jetcans. Make it so anything jettisoned actually vanishes instead of going into a can? --- Grismar.net
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:23:00 - [43] Originally by: Gaven Blands What is also out of balance is the GREED of miners. But it is that greed that can often be their downfall. Your ore thief/pierate/greifer scum player learns quickly the bounds of what can and what can not be done. And rarely do they stray over the line. I have to disagree with you here Gaven. Greed? A character in a Retriever that is approaching the ability to fly a Hulk (within 1-2 skill levels) makes less ISK than a mission runner doing level 2 missions. A Covetor makes less than doing level 3s. A hulk can't compete with level 4s. And we do not have anything better to do level 5s with; plus CCP has already said the capital ship for Industry is NOT a rock-sucker. And at a higher risk also, do to players suiciding them. Something you have experience in Miners have gotten nothing of value from CCP since Rev 1 released. You can't even count the new Upgrade Modules, since they are getting stack-nerfed soon making it so you almost have to use them to equal what you used to get out of 2 "normal" ones. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:24:00 - [44] Mine in a quieter system. I've mined in a deadend 0.5 system in lonetrek for over a year and never had a single can flipped.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:38:00 - [45] If you want a safe game go play wow. "The key to immortality is to first live a life worth remembering."
Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:53:00 - [46] Personally I'd suggest joining a corp. Has the added bonus of having people to hang out with while you mine. Dal Originally by: Seleene It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.
Plentimon Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:56:00 - [47] Originally by: cal nereus Perhaps they should just get rid of jetcans. Make it so anything jettisoned actually vanishes instead of going into a can? And watch the mineral market go up in flames? Jetcan mining is what sustains the market, and CCP knows that full well. Which is why in spite of all the whining on both sides, and their stance about how they never intended jetcans to be used that way, they haven't removed them. But rather than doing something insane like...I dunno, finding a solution, they've just stuck their fingers in their ears and gone "LA LA LA LA LA...Hey look! New MLU's so you can fill those jetcans even faster! Not that we actually intend for you to use it that way."
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:08:00 - [48] Edited by: cal nereus on 30/07/2007 15:10:11 Originally by: Plentimon Originally by: cal nereus Perhaps they should just get rid of jetcans. Make it so anything jettisoned actually vanishes instead of going into a can? And watch the mineral market go up in flames? Jetcan mining is what sustains the market, and CCP knows that full well. Which is why in spite of all the whining on both sides, and their stance about how they never intended jetcans to be used that way, they haven't removed them. But rather than doing something insane like...I dunno, finding a solution, they've just stuck their fingers in their ears and gone "LA LA LA LA LA...Hey look! New MLU's so you can fill those jetcans even faster! Not that we actually intend for you to use it that way." Ya, I was mostly joking about getting rid of jetcans. I still don't see what needs to be solved though. I don't think Eve should be a stable, simple, secure environment. I think it should be messy, filled with disasters and shocks. There should be a few markets that dry up, and prices will change considerably from time to time. We should suffer shortages but sometimes suffer from abundant supply as well. There should be winners and losers, successes and failures, risked ventures that go horribly wrong and ones that turn out to be great investments. Wealth should not come safely. Besides, how do ore thieves threaten the mineral market? All it does is switch the ownership of ore from one person to another. The ore in the economy is the same. Besides, many minerals come from ratting. If miners become less common, ratters become more common, or ore thieves turn increasingly to either ratting or mining of their own, and there will still be minerals for us to use. --- Grismar.net
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:27:00 - [49] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 29/07/2007 05:51:52 and just for the record mmog stands for massively MULTIPLAYER online game, it isn't and won't be balanced for soloing... EVER k.. so we can give rats and general NPCs 1000% more stats as its a MULTIPLAYER game so lone guys ratting is solo play, they should need a mountain of ships to take down a rat as it is a multiplayer game so you shouldnt be able to do anything by yourself, undocking requires 2 more to "right click" you and summon you in space and players that likes to solo in eve should be banned including me as its a MULTIPLAYER game and if i choose not to blobb i offend the blobbers and alliance freaks yes it IS a multiplayer game, but the key in eve is that you can do what you want to do, theres no hard limits guiding your experience and if you want to solo hunt pirates it should defenetly be tweaked/balanced in that area as needed. in WoW you can say your not supposed to solo, in eve you cant eve has tons of paths the players can choose to play, alliance freak show blobbing is one of those options and there are plenty avoiding those.. eve is full of soloers, the best pvp is 1o1 fights against another soloer as you know he will be smart, he wont be using standard setup and he wont have a bunch of friend huggers behind his back.. eve is the coolest solo mmo ever made, if you want to. tbh eve solo play is a ton more awesome then alliance/blobbing fights. the rush isnt there, when you solo or are part of small gangs you get the rush that you miss from staring at square symbols and hearing someone calling primary, secondary, jump jump jump, warp to etc... i just had to.. eve has a huge amount of solo players, its perfectly fine and its very easy to solo play in eve, sure hard but easy in the sence that your not forced to group etc.. --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Plasmatique Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Callista Hawble 4th. if you must mine solo, look around for dead systems with stations, don't stay in a system that you know is visited by thieves Best advice there really
Caligulus Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:45:00 - [51] A) GSC's need to be bigger. B) People that are criminally flagged shouldn't be able to dock for the duration of their timer.
whahein Minmatar Bipolar Barnstorming	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Gaven Blands Hang on... this is a misguided whine, why am I replying? Dunno... we'll find out later. By "Twisting" of the mechanics, do you mean "relying on the target to not use the mechanics he's been given"? Because those mechanics give ample opportunity for your whole corp to bring retribution. You just choose not to. You make it sound like were talking about a choice like the one we make between different sorts of milk, putting the current mecanic in practice require far more from the miner who obviusly need to be dual specialized with exeptional good drone skills to stand any chance while the theif can be in a pure PvP fit and dont need any industrial skills. It can happen but only in forum theory. For most cases the actual mining corps combat wing is 2-3 unexperienced mission runners active, rendering the corp aggro worthless. those corps live in empire for a reason.
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:56:00 - [53] Originally by: Elmicker Mine in a quieter system. I've mined in a deadend 0.5 system in lonetrek for over a year and never had a single can flipped. I must agree. I've jet-can mined many hours in empty 0.5 systems getting good ore with no problems. Heck, I've even mined away happily for hours, solo during wars. Btw, don't listen to all this stuff about using gsc's. It's not realistic at all. Mining with friends or corp-mates is a much better way to do it though. More fun too. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.

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