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Amarr changes = SP IN gunnery for nothing ????

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picchiatello	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:12:00 - [1] Dear CCP with this changes you are make SP In gunnery complety useless.... why? cose u are not able to BALANCE amarr laser???? why ship like sacrilege ,damnation ,vengeance,malediction NOW can't fit turrets ( or can fit only 1 for exaple)....???? SO turrets become useless and all SP PLayers made in Gunnery become useless... exaple... before this changes in sacrilege you could fit turrets... so your SP in gunnery were usefull .. NOW : Hardpoints: 5 launchers (+2), 0 turrets (-4) mean no turrets in sacrilege.... not good... I started play amarr and I will play amarr forever but with this changes almost all SP I took in gunnery are useless... YOU didn't think that almost all Amarr have SP in gunnery and not in MISSILE??? why you force to skil MISSILE???
SibSpi Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:16:00 - [2] Most amarr ships still use lasers. ------------- When in doubt, F1->F8...
Aberash Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:22:00 - [3] Dude your a muppet, most Amarr ships use only lasers, the new khanid changes mean that the most pointless crappy ships in eve might become useful (havnt tryed it out on test server yet - apparently theres no test patch for the current TQ ver?? ) so shut up and use the other ships if your that bothered VID:[IXC] House of Prawn II
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:38:00 - [4] Sounds like very interresting changes to me. With Missiles ROF bonus and HAS missile damage bonus, its a very versatile ship. So we get slightly shapfted with rocket bonuses, but we are a tanking race and long range damage would just make us overpowered. Imagine rails with the damage of a blaster, that would be .
Kuto Amarr Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:11:00 - [5] Edited by: Kuto on 30/07/2007 17:12:47 Guys, ur logic sucks. Just imagine - devs will give for astarte -7 turret slots + 7 lancher slots. And for deimos -5 turret +5 launcher. And when u'll scream at forum - WHY, CCP, WHY???? I will answer u: "Most gallente ships still can use hybrids!" Perfect logic, do u think so?
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Kuto Guys, ur logic sucks. Just imagine - devs will give for astarte -7 turret slots + 7 lancher slots. And for deimos -5 turret +5 launcher. And when u'll scream at forum - WHY, CCP, WHY???? I will answer u: "Most gallente ships sticc can use hybrids!" Perfect logic, do u think so? Nice examples you give there . Yeah, I would scream if they changed Armageddon, Apoc, Abaddon, Maller, Omen, Zealot or Retribution into missiles ships as they have never been close to utilize missiles. All Khanid ships have allways used missiles and have been introduced as half-breeds. Now they become full bread missiles boats. Not a bad change and gives Amarr more versatility. And as long as the bonus's are for EM damage, it holds storywise also. Hope that clear the logic for ya
Kuto Amarr Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Nice examples you give there . Yeah, I would scream if they changed Armageddon, Apoc, Abaddon, Maller, Omen, Zealot or Retribution into missiles ships as they have never been close to utilize missiles. All Khanid ships have allways used missiles and have been introduced as half-breeds. Now they become full bread missiles boats. Not a bad change and gives Amarr more versatility. And as long as the bonus's are for EM damage, it holds storywise also. Hope that clear the logic for ya No, it is not. Ammars' ships all was able to use laser and had bonuses for lasers, many people trained both lasers and ships. Now CCP said - hey, guys, did u saw some launcher slots at a numerous ammar ships? So, it was a signal for u to train missiles. U have not? Haha, cry than, because we took off turret slots and set launchers. Be happy, we are not f*ck u at all - u still have some ships which can use lasers. Thank you my dear CCP! All ammars are asking God to give u some brains at least!
britchie Gallente The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:24:00 - [8] Originally by: SibSpi Most amarr ships still use lasers. That is true, and to fly the changed ships successfully before the patch you needed some missile skills anyway. Your SP are not being wasted. I think that this will give amarr more versatibility. Does anyone know how to get my name capitalized?
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:04:00 - [9] These changes are very good and not really strange in any way. Very good work CCP! But why give the Damnation only 5 launchers...??? I know it has a very good tank but... 5 launchers...? -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
MyOwnSling Gallente RONA Corporation FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Kuto Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Nice examples you give there . Yeah, I would scream if they changed Armageddon, Apoc, Abaddon, Maller, Omen, Zealot or Retribution into missiles ships as they have never been close to utilize missiles. All Khanid ships have allways used missiles and have been introduced as half-breeds. Now they become full bread missiles boats. Not a bad change and gives Amarr more versatility. And as long as the bonus's are for EM damage, it holds storywise also. Hope that clear the logic for ya No, it is not. Ammars' ships all was able to use laser and had bonuses for lasers, many people trained both lasers and ships. Now CCP said - hey, guys, did u saw some launcher slots at a numerous ammar ships? So, it was a signal for u to train missiles. U have not? Haha, cry than, because we took off turret slots and set launchers. Be happy, we are not fck u at all - u still have some ships which can use lasers. Thank you my dear CCP! All ammars are asking God to give u some brains at least! So you are complaining about 3 ships? The only amarr ships with any significant number of missile slots are the only ships that have been changed, if you didn't train missiles for them before, you were leaving some high slots without weapons. And of those 3, only ONE has NO turret slots anymore. The "some ships" that can still use lasers that you refer to are still the vast majority of amarr ships. ------------- Stop whining. Originally by:* Puupuu dude... your face...
Willow Whisp Sadist Faction	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:11:00 - [11] What are you talking about? All amarr ships use lasers. Khanid ships, on the other hand, use unguided missiles now. Get this through your head. Khanid =/= Amarr ... Sadist Faction is recruiting
Pociomundo Gallente World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Kuto Edited by: Kuto on 30/07/2007 17:12:47 Guys, ur logic sucks. Just imagine - devs will give for astarte -7 turret slots + 7 lancher slots. And for deimos -5 turret +5 launcher. And when u'll scream at forum - WHY, CCP, WHY???? I will answer u: "Most gallente ships still can use hybrids!" Perfect logic, do u think so? Roden Shipyards.
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:07:00 - [13] Originally by: SibSpi Most amarr ships still use lasers. If we're just talking about T2, they don't actually, Carthum + Viziam = 8 ships, Khanid = 8 ships. That's a major problem with our T2 ships tbh. A new tool in the fight for balance?
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Pociomundo Originally by: Kuto Edited by: Kuto on 30/07/2007 17:12:47 Guys, ur logic sucks. Just imagine - devs will give for astarte -7 turret slots + 7 lancher slots. And for deimos -5 turret +5 launcher. And when u'll scream at forum - WHY, CCP, WHY???? I will answer u: "Most gallente ships still can use hybrids!" Perfect logic, do u think so? Roden Shipyards. QFFT Sacrilege = GOD YES HOT. You want a crap ship? Go fly an eris ffs. You wanted damage variety, you got it. You wanted close range high damage, you got it. You wanted guns that wouldn't kill your cap. What did you get? IT. Quit whining and train up missiles like the rest of eve ----- Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers Eve GUI Tweaks
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Kuto Edited by: Kuto on 30/07/2007 17:12:47 Guys, ur logic sucks. Just imagine - devs will give for astarte -7 turret slots + 7 lancher slots. And for deimos -5 turret +5 launcher. And when u'll scream at forum - WHY, CCP, WHY???? I will answer u: "Most gallente ships still can use hybrids!" Perfect logic, do u think so? I wouldn't be so upset. Very useful in mission, and would have plenty of cap to repair in PvE or PvP.
Terex193	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:22:00 - [16] Edited by: Terex193 on 31/07/2007 02:24:58 They only changed t2 ships,but still,i don;t wanna skill for them and be like "Sh** I gotta get t2 heavys now" But Its ok,all my ships weren't striped of there amarr beauty :) Lasers FTW!!!! =)
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Kuto Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Nice examples you give there . Yeah, I would scream if they changed Armageddon, Apoc, Abaddon, Maller, Omen, Zealot or Retribution into missiles ships as they have never been close to utilize missiles. All Khanid ships have allways used missiles and have been introduced as half-breeds. Now they become full bread missiles boats. Not a bad change and gives Amarr more versatility. And as long as the bonus's are for EM damage, it holds storywise also. Hope that clear the logic for ya No, it is not. Ammars' ships all was able to use laser and had bonuses for lasers, many people trained both lasers and ships. Now CCP said - hey, guys, did u saw some launcher slots at a numerous ammar ships? So, it was a signal for u to train missiles. U have not? Haha, cry than, because we took off turret slots and set launchers. Be happy, we are not f*ck u at all - u still have some ships which can use lasers. Thank you my dear CCP! All ammars are asking God to give u some brains at least! Well, lets see. You are actually complaining about a change that made the Sacrilege from the crappiest of the crappy HAC's in the game to a good close range brawler with a awesome tank, and that made it double it's DPS ? Why the hell are you complaining ? Who in their right minds would have flown Khanid ships with lasers before ? Let's look at Khanid of before : Malediction - awesome tackler which if you use lasers you get crappy dps and an empty cap which kinda negates the whole tackler thing. Vengeance - crappy dps but good tank and good cap recharge, now it has more DPS with better tank - missiles don't use cap so it all goes to tank. Sacrilege - who in their right bloody mind would use this ship ? I mean, it didn't sell, so who would put lasers on a ship that doesn't even sell. Damnation - fleet command. Cap is key for it because it is a gang ship which should run just gang modes and an awesome tank. The change - cap recharge time and capless weapons, only help it. I can't believe I'm actually calling a RA guy a muppet; you guys have usually few muppets but some do trickle in I guess. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 - [18] OMG! you mean ammar can choose damage type now! RUN FOR THE HILLS! ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.31 02:38:00 - [19] Originally by: MotherMoon OMG! you mean ammar can choose damage type now! RUN FOR THE HILLS! Yeah, since the dam bonuses are not tied to a specific type of damage. Time to start plugging that hole Kin hole you guys have on T2. :) Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Setana Manoro Originally by: MotherMoon OMG! you mean ammar can choose damage type now! RUN FOR THE HILLS! Yeah, since the dam bonuses are not tied to a specific type of damage. Time to start plugging that hole Kin hole you guys have on T2. :) cries but I thought the ammar were suppose to suck :P ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
David GramSchmidt	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:48:00 - [21] I haven't read up about the "Khanid changes" yet, but if it boils down to Amarr having the choice of using missiles or lasers, hence being able to choose damage types, then I'm for it. I've got plenty of gunnery skill points, and I'm glad I have, but I'll gladly start training up more missile skills too. I fly around in my Amarr BS with my Caldari friends and am always secretly jealous of the firework display they put on.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 04:58:00 - [22] errm... I believe this is where the rant tags come into play. [rant=on] OH FOR GOD"S SAKE! You are compaining because amarr get a LITTLE BIT of versatility? Are you REALLY that AGAINST the changing of SOME TECH TWO AMARR SHIPS to missile boats? They still armor tank, and hell, the sacri can put out a TON of tanking, while keeping semi-good dps. The malediction used to suck, now it is PARTIALLY useful! (and tanks pretty well now too). All I am hearing "omg amarr got nerfed!" and "omg now all my lasers are useless". YOUR LASERS ARENT USELESS! IF YOU WANT TO USE LASERS, DON'T USE T2 KHANID SHIPS! THERE IS ACTUALLY A HAC THAT USES LASERS!!!!! USE IT!!!!! Not actually used the vengance yet, but I think the changes can't hurt. [rant=off] On a side note, my heavy assault missiles cant seem to hit stuff at their 'max' range. They need to accelerate faster :P But please, stop complaining because we might be able to do something with some of our ships. Like I said, this change fixes the problem many... ALL khanid t2 ships had. Now they have a single damage system.
SpiritFaLL	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:10:00 - [23] Originally by: picchiatello Dear CCP with this changes you are make SP In gunnery complety useless.... why? cose u are not able to BALANCE amarr laser???? why ship like sacrilege ,damnation ,vengeance,malediction NOW can't fit turrets ( or can fit only 1 for exaple)....???? SO turrets become useless and all SP PLayers made in Gunnery become useless... exaple... before this changes in sacrilege you could fit turrets... so your SP in gunnery were usefull .. NOW : Hardpoints: 5 launchers (+2), 0 turrets (-4) mean no turrets in sacrilege.... not good... I started play amarr and I will play amarr forever but with this changes almost all SP I took in gunnery are useless... YOU didn't think that almost all Amarr have SP in gunnery and not in MISSILE??? why you force to skil MISSILE??? AGREEE !!!!!!!!!! DO NOT CHANGE !!! DO NOT NERF 1/2 of the advanced amarr ships.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:27:00 - [24] Originally by: SpiritFaLL Originally by: picchiatello Dear CCP with this changes you are make SP In gunnery complety useless.... why? cose u are not able to BALANCE amarr laser???? why ship like sacrilege ,damnation ,vengeance,malediction NOW can't fit turrets ( or can fit only 1 for exaple)....???? SO turrets become useless and all SP PLayers made in Gunnery become useless... exaple... before this changes in sacrilege you could fit turrets... so your SP in gunnery were usefull .. NOW : Hardpoints: 5 launchers (+2), 0 turrets (-4) mean no turrets in sacrilege.... not good... I started play amarr and I will play amarr forever but with this changes almost all SP I took in gunnery are useless... YOU didn't think that almost all Amarr have SP in gunnery and not in MISSILE??? why you force to skil MISSILE??? AGREEE !!!!!!!!!! DO NOT CHANGE !!! DO NOT NERF 1/2 of the advanced amarr ships. nerf? it's a boost... ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: CCP posted a new dev blog, they are going to bring Nos in line with.....well....logic
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.07.31 05:45:00 - [25] The forum whine is palpable here. . . yes. . . Dude, you're overreacting. Every T1 Amarr ship (except the Inquisitor) still uses lasers. Including your big bad battleships. Half the T2 ships still use lasers, including the ones people didn't laugh at you for flying before. Retribution, Crusader, Zealot and Absolution still deal out the hurt with lasers, and they'll probably get tweaked later (and before anyone says it, they will NOT be turning the Retri/Zealot/Abso into missile spammers.) Your SP in Gunnery is far from useless. And if you didn't have SP in missiles, you couldn't use the Khanid ships in their previous form to their full effect either. Plus, missiles don't take many skillpoints to be useful, trust me, it'll take you high per/will types maybe a week tops to get decent with em. Sac before: Good tank, decent speed, excellent heavy tackler with 4 mids, meh DPS with split weapons. Sac now: Great tank, good speed, excellent tackle if you fit it that way, better DPS than the cerb with non-kinetic HAMs, capless weapons which divert more cap to the tank, 33% more cap/second with HAC V (1/0.75 = 1.33) and the ability to pick damage types. Regular HAMs get 12km or so range with support skills to IV, and Javelin HAMs get about 50km range with those skills. So you have to train for HAMs to make the Sac useful. I'm sure that Minmatar pilots everywhere will sympathize with your plight. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
MasterDecoy Gallente The Grifters	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:08:00 - [26] # 26 in yet another **goty whine troll thread. Originally by:** Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
0zimandius The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:24:00 - [27] how about +5 to****gotry per lvl and then u could could slap on some frikin raven wierd stickin out parts. i cant help but notice everyone who is supporting this is mainly a caldari pilot. hmmm... seems like a kinda lame way to fix amarr. if this is going to happen, i would rather they didnt change anything. pssh, and i was worried we would end up with a half gallent atrocity. i never dreamed this was a possibility. 0zi with a zero
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:58:00 - [28] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 31/07/2007 06:58:21 Guys, missiles take about a week to get to a basic level, perhaps a month to get good missile supporting skills + t2 missiles as well. Did any of you guys actually use these ships before hand? I can tell you, these ships were uncompetitive with other races prior to this change. -- Billion Isk Mission
0zimandius The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:02:00 - [29] i was in a fite against an '04 dood in a vaga just the other night flying my scar, tanked him no prob and with beams i just kept hittin him no matter where he ran around 2. he had to call in his buddy in an ishtar. tanked them both while i got to the gate dual webbed. this fix sux if they have to put the launchers, at least leave us the slot option. pretty plz. 0zi with a zero
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:05:00 - [30] I assume you were in a sacri? Well, the thing is, You did no damage. None at all. Unless you count the wet noodle launchers as damage. Now, the sacri can do some damage (like 120dps with bad skills, and best named launchers) while being able to tank at the same time.
0zimandius The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:09:00 - [31] it was breaking his tank every time he came close enough to switch to gleams. it wasnt great. but u have to admit that tank is fun. it just seems like a sub-par fix for a very dynamic race. 0zi with a zero
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:12:00 - [32] Originally by: 0zimandius it was breaking his tank every time he came close enough to switch to gleams. it wasnt great. but u have to admit that tank is fun. it just seems like a sub-par fix for a very dynamic race. 0zi with a zero lol gleam? you were running a beam setup? I like the fix, personally. I think it is well worth it.
0zimandius The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:24:00 - [33] yep. 4 focused beam t2s and 2 lite assault launchers. i just like beams range capability. like the way i run my geddons. my geddon setup can tare a blasterthron apart. a missile program isnt dealing with the real problems with amarr. weapon cap and PG useage, and cap itself. and if its not gonna fix the problem, i think its better off being left in the test server and tested. see how outraged everyone gets. and how excited all the caldari pilots are that they will have some wicked nasty wild tanks to play with. then test another possible fix for amarr overall. i love lasers, even if its just em and therm 0zi with a zero
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.07.31 07:57:00 - [34] OP, think before you post in future. You are not being forced to fly Khanid ships, chances are if you are Amarr specialized today you don't fly them anyway, except maybe the curse. Your investment in gunnery is safe. Khanid sucked, now it gives depth and versilitiy to Amarr ships with an additional minor investment in SP (you need around 2mil SP in missiles to be very effective). Bargin.
Kitia STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:15:00 - [35] Tested the sacrilege with the new changes yesterday, I only have missile skills at lev 1, so my range and damaged output sucked big time. Managed to kill a few cruiser sized rats but then had to run. The worse problem I found was the range for assault missiles was very very short. I had to orbit at 1k to hit anything. Anyone with better missile skills been able to test yet? Kitia
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:57:00 - [36] THANKS CCP to make something for us the amarr ;o) (I wait since some years and it's really great if you make something for us ;) ) For this post, STOP PLEASE ! You prefer have ship with laser whit a damage output ridiculous or launcher with a very great damage output ? I prefer the first version of sacrilege with bonus on launcher than all other. After, I have 2m sp in missile and I shoot with my raven at 519 damage (skill cruise at 4, all other at 4) !!! With 2m SP ONLY, I have 10m sp in gunnery (only laser) and I shoot at 100 (I have lot of luck if I make 100 damage) with large turret ! No, the changes on Khanid MK2 are very very good ! But CCP need to change all other amarr ships with laser and cap problem for correct totally the amarrs. It's really a good thing to change khanid for armor tank/missile boat(close) & speed Thx again CCP :)
Angoleus Tech Mineral Holdings Limited	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:12:00 - [37] Edited by: Angoleus on 31/07/2007 11:12:02 Originally by: Kirov VIII After, I have 2m sp in missile and I shoot with my raven at 519 damage (skill cruise at 4, all other at 4) !!! With 2m SP ONLY, I have 10m sp in gunnery (only laser) and I shoot at 100 (I have lot of luck if I make 100 damage) with large turret ! Well then u must do something wrong, because with my mega beam lasers i hit sometimes over 1000, and i only got 5mill in gunery
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:30:00 - [38] Angoleus, 1000 damage = perfect = very very rare and it's a perfect with multifrequency crystal = close. (With a raven = 6x 519dmg and damage don't change. You can't have a perfect shoot on all turrets. It's may be 1 shoot on 30-50) For cruise, it's a all range weapon, you can choose the best damage and make always the same damage (not miss, perfect, ...). During a fight with NPC => resist. The average damage is about 100-150 not on angel by example because the average is 60 may be or less ;P The conclusion is simple. Missile have a better damage output than laser with lesser SP. And Khanid are very very good with missile ;)
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:34:00 - [39] Try the new khanid ships in test server, then whine (if you can, because I'm very happy and I currently have no missile skills...) ________________________________________
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:01:00 - [40] I finish amarr cruiser 5 soon, i have missile skills i shall test. But so far I support these changes, gives me more ships to fly and i can continue to work my preferred weapon type -------------------------------- My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance
Heelay Ashrum Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:40:00 - [41] Originally by: 0zimandius yep. 4 focused beam t2s and 2 lite assault launchers. i just like beams range capability. like the way i run my geddons. my geddon setup can tare a blasterthron apart. This is a perfect example like some people have not any clue.. U was using an amarr hac and u will use beams and not missiles? OK !!!! PERFECT !!!!! USE THE ZEALOT!!!!!!! Is even better laser ship, better optimal range , better damage and tank as good ( probably better) as a sacrilege ( +2 low slots ). What the hell are u whining about??? Amarr pilots whined for years that they had not damage variety and that EM damage sucks.. Now u have still laser ships but also ships where u can chose damage type. U simply will have more choices but still u are not forced to missiles because u have all your laser boats.
Apothiz Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:05:00 - [42] Edited by: Apothiz on 31/07/2007 13:05:29 I realise that missiles are very usefull on amarr ships considering the damage they can do over lasers and cap etc. For example having more missile launchers on the Damnation will be fantastic in my opinion. However I believe that it would have been better to make lasers more efficient and more powerfull on amarr ships given that some of us have taken the time to train 8 or more million skillpoints in gunnery. Our Gunnery skills wont be useless because we can still fit a few guns going by this but they dont give us the edge that we should get by training gunnery so high. In short, mixed feelings. I would suggest considering all other options before making these changes. There may be a better way to improve the amarr ships you have mentioned.
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:07:00 - [43] there's still room for a proper Amarr fix, but this was the Khanid fix and therefore has little to do with the issues of conventional Amarr vessels and their weapons ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:36:00 - [44] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy I finish amarr cruiser 5 soon, i have missile skills i shall test. But so far I support these changes, gives me more ships to fly and i can continue to work my preferred weapon type That, together with the fact that 70% of the population are caldari, about summarizes why CCP **** over any Amarr pilot that was left out there.. If the caldari are cheering, CCP u seriously messed up this one! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.**
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:40:00 - [45] Originally by: Willow Whisp What are you talking about? All amarr ships use lasers. Khanid ships, on the other hand, use unguided missiles now. Get this through your head. Khanid =/= Amarr If Khanid is not Amarr then Khanid ships dont deserve to be in the Amarr ship tree and be moved over to that lot called FACTION SHIPS!! Making Khanid faction ships would make everyone happy, since its mostly caldari with their vast missile SPs that want this change go through, which means they'll have all the skills to fly faction ships already.. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.01 04:01:00 - [46] You've still got Zealots, Retributions, Absolutions, Armageddons, Apocalypses, Abaddons, Punishers, Omens, Harbingers, Prophecies and of course the Revelation to play around with with your zillions upon zillions of laser SP. /sarcasm And of course everyone flew the Sac and the Damnation for their uber DPS before this, and their now losing all DPS at all ranges. . . /sarcasm off Btw, Javelin HAMs go 50+ km, and missiles take absolutely no SP to use effectively. Sac is still a great heavy tackle and an even more ridiculous tank, now it can actually hurt what it's latched itself on to. Be honest, how many of you people going "OMG CCP is screwing the Amarr" actually flew the Khanid ships before? I admittedly did not. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Neeksha	Posted - 2007.08.01 05:07:00 - [47] Add drones to Zealot!!! Spread the nerf around!!!
Mari Onette Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.01 06:07:00 - [48] The vengeance can still fit 1 turret, as can the Malediction. your skills aren't COMPLETELY useless. More importantly, their pure Ammarian sister ships, the retribution and the crusader, still have all their turrets. ------ I am in blood! Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more, it would be as tedious as going over. -MacBeth
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:35:00 - [49] The main problem is that when all is said and done, lasers will still be the LEAST (by far) usable weapon type for T2 ships after the Khanid nerf. If you take the T2 ships intended for direct combat (AF,'Ceptor,'Dictor, HAC,CS), there are a total of 36 of these.... Laser pilots will have access to 4 (i.e. 11%). Laser pilots will not be able to use an Interdictor AT ALL.... If you look at balance between the different weapon systems, lasers does get screwed by this. After the nerf, missile and hybrid users will have 2/3rd (!!) of the T2 direct combat ships (i.e. 66%). To the people who say, 'but lasers can still be used on a lot of T1 boats'... Great, so laser users have to use the crappy ships, with the crappiest weapon system in the game???? How many will train lasers at all? How will that improve variety in weapon systems in the game??? Are we all supposed to end up as missile/hybrid users??? Great way of balancing the game: Let's make everybody the same! PS: I don't see the current Sacrilege, nor the current Malediction as 'crap'. Each of them has an extra mid-slot which makes the Sac able to dual-web, and the Mal able to carry 1 web (both in addition to the warp scrambler and MWD). This in my opinion makes them far better than the Zealot and Crusader as the Sac can actually slow enemy support down enough to murder it, and the Mal can stop ships from burning back to the gate. In effect, I see laser users loosing their BEST 'ceptor, and their BEST anti-support ship. Less damage is (IMHO) not a big sacrifice if you get the ability to slow your target down! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.08.01 07:38:00 - [50] Interdictor is a ship to put bubbles. Its firepower is suplementary and rarely used.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.08.01 08:47:00 - [51] Edited by: Kerfira on 01/08/2007 08:53:25 Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Interdictor is a ship to put bubbles. Its firepower is suplementary and rarely used. O RLY? Try playing the game...... 'Dictors have weapons, and they DO use them in the minute('ish) where they can't drop bubbles... They're quite devastating to support! Lasers users after this nerf are left with 8 worthwhile direct combat ships they can fly (the rest being T1 small ships that are not worth it), two of them are crippled ones (Zealot and Crusader because of their lack of mid-slots as described above), and AF's not generally worth it anyway. The 3 BS Tier-2 BC (Harbinger) Zealot (too few mids to be really effective) Crusader (same) Absolution Retribution (AF's are not worthwhile anyway) Point out why people should train lasers at all... In effect, what this nerf does is marginalise one of the 4 weapon systems in the game to the point where it is not worth training. I don't disagree that the new ships aren't great, but that greatness comes at relegating the already weakest weapon system to even greater obscurity.... I prefer EVE to be a diverse universe where you have multiple paths to choose for your training in any area. This effectively removes one of the viable paths in weapon training, which I see as a bad thing for the game as such. PS: For the people disparaging the current Sacrilege, try flying both it and the Zealot in fleet support (I'm assuming my opponent is not a complete noob). If I fly a Zealot, half the ships I target I can either not hit (1 web is not enough to be able to hit a 'ceptor), or they're still fast enough to get away. If I fly a Sacrilege with dual webs, what gets within 13km (gang bonus) and I select as target, dies! People are so focused on the Zealots higher theoretical DPS that they're blind to the other things that make it less effective (hint, if you can't hit your target, high DPS mean nothing). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:14:00 - [52] People should still train lasers for the Absolution, for the Amarr Battleships and for the Amarr Dreadnought.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.08.01 09:22:00 - [53] Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe People should still train lasers for the Absolution, for the Amarr Battleships and for the Amarr Dreadnought. But the question is how many would do that since there are really are no small ships left worth flying that uses lasers, i.e. it is much more attractive to train either hybrid/missile/projectile where there ARE small ships worth flying. When you're a new'ish player, you want a progression in ships you can fly. You don't start training for a weapon type if you can't really use it until 3+ months later.... It's not as if the ships you mention are that great anyway..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 01/08/2007 09:29:47 Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe People should still train lasers for the Absolution, for the Amarr Battleships and for the Amarr Dreadnought. But the question is how many would do that since there are really are no small ships left worth flying that uses lasers, i.e. it is much more attractive to train either hybrid/missile/projectile where there ARE small ships worth flying. When you're a new'ish player, you want a progression in ships you can fly. You don't start training for a weapon type if you can't really use it until 3+ months later.... 1. First you'll want to train for one or more T2 frigate type.... 2. Then maybe the Tier-2 BC... 3. Then probably for a HAC... 4. You may want to give 'Dictors a go.. 5. And finally for BS. ....ops, 1 and 3 have no (imho) usable ships. 4 HAS no usable ships. 5 has only marginally useful ships. you have forgot a CS and the Abso which possesses the best field CS tank (ok Sleipnir may have better one but it's the shield tank), and second best DPS (although it's mostly EM). Quote: It's not as if the ships you mention are that great ships to aim for anyway..... I hear amarr dread is the best for POS killing as they don't need to bring tons of ammo. As of the BS, well it's a taste thing but there are certainly amarr BS lovers out there and they all use lasers, no missile skills needed. Also no one told that lasers won't be boosted somehow in the future. I wonder if they will release t2 BS from Khanid or from Carthum though :)
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.08.01 10:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe you have forgot a CS and the Abso which possesses the best field CS tank (ok Sleipnir may have better one but it's the shield tank), and second best DPS (although it's mostly EM). Yeah, didn't include that. It would come after BS training for most people though since people would need to train all the gang skills too for it to be really effective (not to mention that people like the sound of the word 'Battleship')... As for the dread, most cargo space is usualy taken up by stront/fuel, and the Amarr dread already has the smallest cargohold anyway. Most ppl flying Amarr BS mostly do it because they don't die as much.... since they're not dangerous enough to shoot.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Shuyen Kyuu	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:03:00 - [56] Ok well this is the first time i've actually posted to the forums, its almost a bit sad that its this change which has put this in motion. I've now tested both the Sac and Vengance on the test server and all i have to say is ... why did you need to change them? personally i thought they were great ships, expecially the Sac, it was a perfect mix of both missiles and lasers, I don't see why you should change this as it offers both the variety your talking about without making the actual Amarr players (not the Caldari who fly Amarr ships) feel like they are loosing part of their ability to fly the ship, it would be like taking away all the launcher slots on a Eagle, Harpy, Raptor, Flycatcher and Vulture im sure you'd have the Caldari players screaming about it as much as the Amarr players have. After saying that those the Sac is still possible to fly and with the correct rigs five heavy missiles can be fitted (no i do not like HAM's, as far as im concerned they are glorified rockets) which when i started to fly i Sac i had 3 Heavy's and 3 Beams (with gleam in them) so i could work at all ranges and have the extra punch up close. Now it seems that the Sac will be religated to pure tackling due to lack of range and tank, or simply as a heavy missile platform with high resistances, either way its now taken what was a versitile ship and is making you choose between ignoring the ship bonuses and going long range, or giving into the pressure to use HAM's and be at close range. On the topic of having to fight close range, now that there is no long range option the Sac has to get into combat fast ... but the ship is so slow, i mean the max speed i've got onto it with a semi decent tank was 1800m/s ... now compared to the other speed based close range HAC's this is pathetic, you might as well just ask to be primary target in PVP to at least see some of the action. Anyway regardless of everything if CCP changes the ships then there is nothing that can be done but adapt, its just sad that the 'versatility' change to the ships seems to have turned them into armor tanking caldari ships.
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:28:00 - [57] I wish people would drop this '8 mill wasted SP bullcrap' - The majority of your investment in gunnery is likely to be in ancilary skills which are equally useful should you train up other turrets, which doesn't take that long at all. Divesifying your character is not a bad thing, get over this and move on
you12345who	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:35:00 - [58] Ive noticed that alot of people are saying that caldari pilots will benefit from this the most... If you just look at what your saying, your wayyy offf. 1. they prob have caldari cruiser to 5 not amarr. 2. they prob have more skills in shield then they do armor. 3. they may have the missile skills right off the bat, but 1 & 2 kind of make the 1 to 2 months of training a ways off for most caldari pilots to just hop into the sacrilege... im an amarr pilot, with alot of my skills in gunnery, but im going to take a month, maybe more and train missile skills. The sacrilege as those who noticed this boost, not nerf, is a much better ship now. So stop whining about this and adapt, this is a good thing.
Per Bastet Amarr B.O.O.M	Posted - 2007.08.01 12:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Kuto No, it is not. Ammars' ships all was able to use laser and had bonuses for lasers, many people trained both lasers and ships. Now CCP said - hey, guys, did u saw some launcher slots at a numerous ammar ships? So, it was a signal for u to train missiles. U have not? Haha, cry than, because we took off turret slots and set launchers. Be happy, we are not f*ck u at all - u still have some ships which can use lasers. Oh God my Eyes, It burns
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.01 13:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Kerfira Yeah, didn't include [the Absolution]. It would come after BS training for most people though since people would need to train all the gang skills too for it to be really effective (not to mention that people like the sound of the word 'Battleship')... As for the dread, most cargo space is usualy taken up by stront/fuel, and the Amarr dread already has the smallest cargohold anyway. Most ppl flying Amarr BS mostly do it because they don't die as much.... since they're not dangerous enough to shoot.... so basically we have arrived at the same argument you had with Aramendel - you simply ignore the laser ships which don't suit your theory that with Khanid Mk.II laser boats become an obsolete minority your lasers are NOT obsolete, laser boats are NOT obsolete just because the Khanid Innovations combat ships get changed to short range missile spammers. That's a total of FIVE ships, one of which is not intended to DPS anyway, while there's 14 remaining gunboats to use lasers on (T1 below battleships and the dread included) you refuse a) to count certain ships and b) to spend the two weeks to make the new Khanid ships as effective with missiles as they were with 1337 million SP in lasers, that's your fault and not CCPs - because flying Khanid ships without missile SP before this change was a dumb idea already For the whole of the game and the not-so-goddamn-stubborn players, this change is great. ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.08.02 07:54:00 - [61] Edited by: Kerfira on 02/08/2007 07:55:52 Originally by: Lord Loom your lasers are NOT obsolete, laser boats are NOT obsolete just because the Khanid Innovations combat ships get changed to short range missile spammers. That's a total of FIVE ships, one of which is not intended to DPS anyway, while there's 14 remaining gunboats to use lasers on (T1 below battleships and the dread included) you refuse a) to count certain ships and b) to spend the two weeks to make the new Khanid ships as effective with missiles as they were with 1337 million SP in lasers, that's your fault and not CCPs - because flying Khanid ships without missile SP before this change was a dumb idea already For the whole of the game and the not-so-goddamn-stubborn players, this change is great. No, it is people like you (and aramendel), who're trying to make other peoples argument into something else that are, to be frank, idiots! My argument is that laser users will have very few worthwhile ships left (i.e. top-end), while the other weapon types will have plenty. Saying 'Oh, but there are plenty of LOW-END laser boats also!' doesn't change much when the argument is about TOP-END, does it? I know you wish it does, but it really doesn't! T1 below Tier-2 BC's are IRRELEVANT when talking about 'top-end' ships, simply because they, for ALL weapon systems, are shte when compared to the top-end ships! My argument is not against the new Khanid ships as such, but the fact that lasers users are left with very few TOP-END ships to use after the nerf.... Please use arguments that are relevant to what I say.... PS: Learn to read and comprehend what people say/write before you argue! Originally by:* CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.02 09:14:00 - [62] sorry, but I have to say this, you're one of the biggest morons I've come across on these boards since I started playing - if you artificially restrict yourself and your argument to "worthwhile" ships there's nothing else I can tell you, because you're so narrow-minded and stubborn it's not worth it even TRYING to argue one. last. time. there are three other races which also have to cross-train to a different weapon system for half of their "worthwhile" ships, so get lost with your stupid "zomg there's no good laser ships left" bull**. It wasn't even true, the Khanid ships were CRAPPY laser ships to begin with, you lose nothing and gain a lot by training some missile skills. Really, dumb**s like yourself need to get a clue ---------- KEEP TRY!!!

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